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Berrin, thanks for your views.

This thread is to determine if the Koran has more negative or positive passages about unbelievers.

Shafique (who raised the issue) seems unwilling or unable to find a single passage from the Koran that speaks positively of non-Muslims.

A muslim is the one who believes in all the revelations, revealed by all the messengers of God.
Islam is the religion of all those prophets and the followers of their time..

Quran speaks positively of those believers who believed in the messages of the prophets of their time,
until of course islam arrived with prophet muhammad, through which all the messages of previous messengers were combined, completed and finalised as a whole to be followed by all humanity until judgement day..

Islam which was the religion of all the prophets were meant to deal with unbelivers and establish the law(religion) of the Lord of the worlds...

This is the proof from quran....(quran not only talks about prophet muhammed and his disbelivers but the other prophets and their disbelievers..)

What the Qur'an teaches : Unbelievers’ argument in hell

In the name of God, the Lord of Grace, the Ever Merciful. Before the fire they are brought, morning and evening, and then on the Day when the Last Hour comes, it will be said: Cast Pharaoh’s people into the worst suffering.
They will contend with one another in the fire: The weak will say to those who were arrogant, “We have been your followers, so can you relieve us of some share of the fire?”
The arrogant will reply: “We are all in it together. For God has judged between His creatures.”
Those in the fire will say to the keepers of hell: “Pray to your Lord that He lighten this suffering of ours, though it be for one day only.”
They will ask: “Did your messengers not come to you with clear evidence of the truth?” They will say: “Yes, indeed.” (The keepers of hell) will say: “Pray, then!” But the prayers of the unbelievers will be all in vain.
(AL-GHAFIR-The Forgiving(God); 40: 46-50)

Thee are many lessons in these verses when we think of current world affairs.But the two significant ones are:
1-never follow and appraise disbelieving arrogant/tyrant world/country leaders that are also driving their blindly following supporters into hellfire,despite all the clear messages of God that are well known to humanity..

2- and always be supportive of new emerging leaderships who are belivers and advocates of true message of God, in the hope that not only they will save themselves but also save their followers by propagating faith, relevant prosperity and happiness in everyones lives as a whole society here and the hereafter..

Eh would you like to read more on hell?...
Salvation from hellfire..
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/243/

A Description of Hellfire ..
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/344/viewall/

Berrin - you are right that God explains what happens to those souls that aren't forgiven, but we should also remind eh of the many verses which state that God is most forgiving as well.

I also explained to eh that God explaining what will happen to souls who don't follow God's commandments is equivalent to a loving parent telling a child not to put their hand into a snake's lair. Explaining how a soul will suffer if they don't follow God's laws is an act of love.

Islam is pretty clear about the benefits of following the path laid out by God and pretty clear what the consequences will be after death if one chooses not to follow these commandments. God is pretty clear that He is also forgiving and merciful too - and that we should pray for His grace and mercy.

The Quran is replete with glad tidings for those who choose God and warnings for those that choose to not follow God. I can't see what eh's objection to God's description of the pain souls will endure if they sin are?

Cheers,
Shafique

Thanks Shafique, my reply was in response to his qutoe "unable to find a single passage from the Koran that speaks positively of non-Muslims."..... But yes, as always we should also remind him of the many verses which state that God is most forgiving as well.

Here we are.....(in purist description)
The Divine Mercy of God: God the Most-Merciful, the Dispenser of Mercy
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/419/viewall/

My Mercy Prevails Over My Wrath
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1183/viewall/

The Names of God: The Most Merciful
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1594/

Eh would you also like to read about the Pleasures of Paradise?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/11/viewall/

True love is unconditional. The weak and unsecure try to 'force' love with punishment.

of course negative , if u dont belive in Allah , Hz Muhammed and Kuran you will go to hell ... maybe it seem bad non-believers but this is true, thats it...

True love is unconditional. The weak and unsecure try to 'force' love with punishment.

never mind the hereafter, infact there is nothing on this earth that happens unconditionaly..

A tree doesn't give fruit, unless it flowers,,
A boss doesn't give salary, unless you do the job required,
A child doesn't love his parents, unless they provide, love and show compassion,
An ill doesn't get cured unless they get treated..
A marriage/relationship doesn't last unless you start to think as two not as one (conditional)
A child doesn't become a scientist unless you educated him in that direction..
A night doesn't arrive unless you've gone through day light...
Meal doesn't cook unless you put it on the cooker..
You don't sensibly mature unless you get hurt and you learn from mistakes called experience...and so on..

What god says is that he has created us all out of his love and passion so that we recognize him and worship him alone..
Just like what parents would expect from their kids after many years of their hardship to raise us as beautiful,complete,humane beings...(you can't turn your back on them, can you?)

“I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship.” (Quran 51:56)

So if you want to eat fruit(paradise), you have to plant a seed(will) to become a tree(belief in God/religion),planting a tree is not enough itself, you have to make sure that it gives healthy(true path) flower buds for fruits, i.e prune,water,feed with nutrition, insecticide (good deeds, prayers,repentance)...in short worship....

God sustains us with his bounty and endless mercy while giving us free will and choice, warning at the same time through his messengers and revelations..
So It's up to us what we do as long as we can bare our own destiny upon our choices...

Why Did God Create Mankind?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/336/viewall/

berrin wrote:just like what parents would expect from their kids after many years of their hardship to raise us as beautiful,complete,humane beings...(you can't turn your back on them, can you?)

Yet the difference between a good parent from allah is that a good parent has unconditional love for their child.

Shafique has already said that 'good' parents should tell their children that their love is conditional if the child disobeys them. I think he gave the example of a mother threatening her children that her love for them ends when her children disobey her.

And as William Lane Craig has already pointed out, Christian God has unconditional love for all of mankind whereas allah only loves those who love him back (follow his commands, worship him, etc).



Actually, here's the exact quote, I kid you not:

A mother will tell a child that she will not like children who misbehave or play with fire - ultimately to prevent them from hurting thmselves.

The difference between Christians and Muslims can be distilled down to: Christians hate the sin, Muslims hate the sinner.

event horizon wrote:
Yet the difference between a good parent from allah is that a good parent has unconditional love for their child.

Absolutely not, a good parent have unconditional love(mercy and show grace) towards their child until he/she becomes an adult(they will nurture you, educate you, provide and sustain you until you become an adult),.. After reaching adulthood if you stop honouring and start to humiliate, reject and disrespect their hardship they may start to curse you and not love you anymore despite their conscious of being owners as parents..

Shafique has already said that 'good' parents should tell their children that their love is conditional if the child disobeys them. I think he gave the example of a mother threatening her children that her love for them ends when her children disobey her.

And as William Lane Craig has already pointed out, Christian God has unconditional love for all of mankind... - Really?

Shafique is correct.. Love must be translated in action, attitude and behavior, otherwise it is just a word without meaning...
http://www.ilaam.net/Questions/AllahsLove.html

The difference between Christians and Muslims can be distilled down to: Christians hate the sin, Muslims hate the sinner.

Noo no no..there is no such thing as christian,jewish, muslim god..There is one and only God that shared by all monotheistic religions..
Otherwise Muslim god would not claim that what propehet jesus and moses worshiped was the same..
Remember how 1 god became 3 gods?
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bible/Arianism.asp

Since the corruption of revelations after prophet jesus , I am not sure if the christian god was made to love the sinner or the sins..
But this pastor says that God loves the sinner but not the sins..
http://www.cause-of-god.com/love_sinners.html

However if you read my previous links in the previous messages you will surely see that God in Islam loves the sinners (as long as they show regret,remorse and repentance) but curses the sins..

The point that really stumps eh is that Christian theologians who have studied the Quran have concluded that the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the same God of Moses and Jesus etc.

Hans Kung has been quoted a few times stating this explicitly.

Therefore the attributes of God are the same - He is unchanging.

What the loons are trying (and failing to do) is insinuate that the God of Islam is different in characteristic from the God of the Bible. They deliberately confuse the descriptions of what happens to one's soul when one sins (i.e. disobeys the commandments of God, do things that harm one's soul) with a notion that this is a sign God does not love everyone.

Notice how eh refuses to acknowledge that Kung's conclusion that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible means that the attributes in the Quran don't contradict the attributes in the Bible.

The loon argument also breaks down completely when one considers that the Bible also states that there is a Hell and that there will be inhabitants in Hell. God loves all people, but people are accountable for their actions - and if their actions lead to their souls suffering - it is not because God does not love them.

The analogy of the loving parents is apt. Warning that the fire burns or the snake bites is not a sign that they want the child to burn their hands or get bitten, but rather a loving warning that they will suffer if they put their hands in the fire or in the snake pit. A parent does not deceive a child that there is no fire or no snake.

So, we are left with a choice - either accept the loon interpretations of the Quran and their beliefs that Allah is not the God of Jesus and Moses, or accept the conclusions of proper scholars like Kung and others who know that the attributes of God in the Quran are indeed of an All-Merciful, ever-forgiving God (Al Rahman and Al Ghafoor).

Cheers,
Shafique

Absolutely not, a good parent have unconditional love(mercy and show grace) towards their child until he/she becomes an adult(they will nurture you, educate you, provide and sustain you until you become an adult),.. After reaching adulthood if you stop honouring and start to humiliate, reject and disrespect their hardship they may start to curse you and not love you anymore despite their conscious of being owners as parents..

The problem here is that your understanding of what passes for good parenting is shaped by your religion.

Allah hates disblievers/sinners. So, from your upbringing you think it's 'ok' for parents to love their children conditionally - to only love if you are loved back. That is the example that the god of the Koran sets.

In the West, parents are expected to love their children unconditionally - a parent may hate their child's actions and become hurt over their child's choices in life, but it is expected that parents following the Western/Christian based model to never stop loving their children.

I have to come to the conclusion that the Western ideal of unconditional love is based almost entirely on the love God has for humanity in the Bible.

-- Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:17 pm --

shafique wrote:The point that really stumps eh is that Christian theologians who have studied the Quran have concluded that the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is the same God of Moses and Jesus etc.

Hans Kung has been quoted a few times stating this explicitly.

Therefore the attributes of God are the same - He is unchanging.

What the loons are trying (and failing to do) is insinuate that the God of Islam is different in characteristic from the God of the Bible. They deliberately confuse the descriptions of what happens to one's soul when one sins (i.e. disobeys the commandments of God, do things that harm one's soul) with a notion that this is a sign God does not love everyone.

Notice how eh refuses to acknowledge that Kung's conclusion that the God of the Quran is the same God of the Bible means that the attributes in the Quran don't contradict the attributes in the Bible.

The loon argument also breaks down completely when one considers that the Bible also states that there is a Hell and that there will be inhabitants in Hell. God loves all people, but people are accountable for their actions - and if their actions lead to their souls suffering - it is not because God does not love them.

The analogy of the loving parents is apt. Warning that the fire burns or the snake bites is not a sign that they want the child to burn their hands or get bitten, but rather a loving warning that they will suffer if they put their hands in the fire or in the snake pit. A parent does not deceive a child that there is no fire or no snake.

So, we are left with a choice - either accept the loon interpretations of the Quran and their beliefs that Allah is not the God of Jesus and Moses, or accept the conclusions of proper scholars like Kung and others who know that the attributes of God in the Quran are indeed of an All-Merciful, ever-forgiving God (Al Rahman and Al Ghafoor).

Cheers,
Shafique

But what does the Koran say ?

Does allah say that he loves non-believers/sinners ?

What part of God loves everyone is confusing to you?

Does God not also love the people that are in the Hell described in the Bible? How is that any different from God loving those who choose to incur His punishment, and God warning us of the consequences of our actions?

The problem for you, young one, is that Christian scholars of theology have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible (and this is, of course, what the Quran says and Muslims believe). You keep running away from this fact as it exposes the simple truth that you are wilfully being hypocritical in insisting your interpretation of Islam (the weird, loon inerpretation) is true.

I.e. - you've been comprehensively punked, yet again.



Cheers,
Shafique

What part of God loves everyone is confusing to you?

There would be no confusion if you just quoted the Koran where allah said that.

Where does allah love sinners ? Where does allah love non-believers ?

But just do it on another thread.

This thread is to determine if the Koran has more negative or positive passage regarding unbelievers.

Mecruh says the Koran is mostly negative towards unbelievers.

I agree with him.

Right now, the count stands at 1 negative, 0 positive.

This thread is to determine if the Koran has more negative or positive passage regarding unbelievers.

Your problem then must be with "religion",not just islam as it is cause all monotheistic religions resist against disbelivers..
Such as the terminology in judo-christian world..atheist, heathen, heretic, apostate, blasphemy, pagan, sinner,anti-Christ, chosen and gentile..

Well, let's recall that this thread was only started after you quoted an article stating that 61% of the Quranic verses speak ill of non-believers. You couldn't back that up, so had to start this one.

I have merely pointed out to you that your whole underlying premise is wrong - in that there is no difference between the attributes of God of the Bible and the God who revealed the Quran. Scholars of theology, eg Professor Hans Kung, have concluded exactly this point.

From the outset it has been clearly explained to you that God loves all creation and this is manifested in the attribute Rahman. This attribute is listed at least 114 times in the Quran, and appears in the very first verse of the Quran.

I also reject the notion that God explaining what happens to souls that sin is a 'negative verse' - it is merely an explanation of what the consequences of wrong choices are. The Quran is replete with the glad tidings for those who choose to follow God's commands as well - again, only explaining what benefits are.

So, the choice remains - do we believe the Islamophobic view that the God of the Quran is different from the God of the Bible, or do we believe credible theological scholars who conclude that they are one and the same?

If we reject the loon view in favour of scholarship, your whole premise is punked. That's why you're avoiding this simple fact.

Cheers,
Shafique

From the outset it has been clearly explained to you that God loves all creation and this is manifested in the attribute Rahman. This attribute is listed at least 114 times in the Quran, and appears in the very first verse of the Quran.

What's in a name ? Does that mean the Nazis were Leftists because they had 'socialism' in their title ?

Good argument.



Why not address what the Koran actually says of allah's mercy as William Lane Craig and I have already done ?

Allah is very merciful alright ... to those who love him back.

However, the Koran is very clear that allah is neither merciful nor loving (merciful and loving do not have the same meaning - it amazes me that this needs to be pointed out) to those who do not love him, ie., unbelievers and sinners.

Now, do you have a passage where allah says that he loves non-believers and sinners ? Do you feel like addressing the passages in the Koran where allah says that he does not love sinners and unbelievers ?

Are we to conclude that there is not a single positive passage in the Koran about unbelievers (the current count stands at 1 negative and 0 positive) ?

As I said, the choice is whether to agree with the Christian theological scholars who have studied the Quran and concluded that the God of the Quran (who is Rahman) is the same God of Jesus/the Bible - or whether to believe the Islamophobe's view that the God of Muhammad, pbuh, is less loving and different from the God of Jesus.

For me the choice is clear - they are one and the same.

All the verses that talk of what rewards are there for those who choose to not sin apply equally to all humans, as do the verses that state what happens if you choose to sin. Therefore the whole premise of two categories of people is null and void, God loves all people the same and stating what the consquences of sin is hardly a negative, it is actually a positive sign of love (because it is a warning of what the consequences are).

This is no different from what Jesus taught - he also said some souls will be suffer in Hell for their deeds, and others will be in heaven - the same applies in Islam.

But as I said, your problem is that you can't admit to Kung's conclusions because it exposes the fundamental flaw in your belief.

Cheers,
Shafique

Interesting talking points.

I think they've all been addressed and dismissed several times throughout this thread.

Do you have a single Koranic verse you would like to cite that talks positively of non-believers ?

The current count: 1 negative, 0 positive

-- Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:33 pm --

God loves all people the same and stating what the consquences of sin is hardly a negative, it is actually a positive sign of love (because it is a warning of what the consequences are).

Unfortunately, the Koran *does* say that allah does not love unbelievers and sinners while the Koran also says that allah does love those who believe.

On the other hand, the Bible says that God does love sinners.

Koran: allah hates disbelievers (his words, not mine) and sinners

Bible: God loves sinners

Berrin agrees with me.

On the other hand, the Bible says that God does love sinners.

Quran too says that god loves sinners as long as they show regret, remurse and repentance..
The Prophet said:
“If mankind were not to commit sins, God would create other creatures who would commit sins, then He would forgive them, for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.” (Al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Musnad Ahmed)
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/421/

Koran: allah hates disbelievers (his words, not mine) and sinners

Koran doesn't hate disbelievers, God condemns their resistance and actions..
Bible says the same as it has similar terminology such as atheist, heathen, heretic, apostate, blasphemy, pagan, sinner,anti-Christ, chosen and gentile..
http://biblestudies.suite101.com/articl ... es-sinners

So Your problem must be either "religion" or islamophobia..

Choose your pick...

eh - I admire the way you can continue to ignore a simple fact - i.e. that the God of the Bible is the same as the God of the Quran according to Christian theological scholars who have actually read and understood the Quran (unlike yourself, as you've admitted you haven't actually read the whole Quran and insist Bob Spencer and his ilk are correct).

Berrin is clear: God does not hate disbelievers.

The Bible is clear, sinners will be punished in Hell. The Quran is clear, +some+ sinners will be punished in Hell (many will be forgiven). God yet loves everyone, those He punishes for their choices and those He rewards for their choices.

Everyone is clear except you, young one. But then again, we've seen a clear pattern of denial when the truth of loon theories of Islam are exposed.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin did not say that Koran god does not hate disbelievers. He said that Koran god does not hate sinners if they first repent. I agree with him as does William Lane Craig - Koran god only loves those who love him back.

The Quran is clear, +some+ sinners will be punished in Hell (many will be forgiven).

The Koran is clear that all disbelievers will be sent to the eternal fires of hell and sinners will be sent to hell - but hell will be a temporary abode for those who die as Muslims.

Suicide bombers will be sent straight to paradise since they 'kill and are killed' for allah.

In any event, Oh wise one, the New Testament is far from clear on the afterlife, with some church fathers interpreting passages to mean that all, including Lucifer, will be saved. Others are annihilationists who believe that wicked souls will be annihilated rather than suffer for all eternity. These are all views with strong evidence from the New Testament.

And it was already explained to you before, Oh Biblical scholar, that only the New Testament talks of a hell.

See what I mean about ignoring the simple fact I stated?

Let's try again, shall we?

What is your answer to the fact that Christian theological scholars who have studied the Quran (and understand what 'Rahman' etc means in terms of God's attributes) conclude that God is one, and is the same God of the Bible?

Do you disagree with them? If you don't, then it is clear you merely misinterpret (wilfully or ignorantly) the descriptions of the consequences of sin with a notion of hate toward sinners.

Cheers,
Shafique

I totally agree with William Lane Craig's argument that the god of Islam does not love sinners or disbelievers.

He has proven this by quoting allah where he says that he does not love those who don't love him.

The fact that your argument crumbles when subjected to scrutiny says it all.

I'm not interested in what the Bible says - Muslims follow the Koran, not the Bible.

So why not address the clear quotes from the complete Koran instead of continuing on with your straw-man ?

Yeap...islamophobia....

You see - still ignoring the simple fact.

Loons are so shy of actual evidence, it is painful.

Cheers,
Shafique

The current count of negative to positive verses in the Koran stands at 1 and 0, respectively.

You should take your 'brilliant arguments' of the New Testament superseding what allah says in the Koran to the other thread.

There, I wait patiently for even one passage where allah says that he loves non-believers or sinners.

Still ignoring a simple fact and pointing at a strawman.

Such as it always was with loons - they can't face the evidence. I'll wait too and see whether eh ever addresses (or even acknowledges) that Christian scholars (rather than loon bloggers) have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible.

Cheers,
Shafique

Koran 4:76

The believers fight in the way of God, and the unbelievers fight in the idols' way. Fight you therefore against the friends of Satan; surely the guile of Satan is ever feeble.

Such as it always was with loons - they can't face the evidence. I'll wait too and see whether eh ever addresses (or even acknowledges) that Christian scholars (rather than loon bloggers) have concluded that the God of the Quran is the God of the Bible.

Who are these Christian scholars you are referring to ?

The current count stands at 2 negative, 0 positive.

LOL.

Professor Hans Kung is a Christian theologian who has actually studied and understood the Quran and concludes that the God of Muhammad is the same God of Jesus. Which loon blogger believes they are more qualified than him? (Note, he is a 'Senior Christian Theologian'):

As a leading Catholic theologian, Küng, with special reference to Nostra Aetate, openly and boldly invited the members of the Catholic Church to officially acknowledge Muhammad’s prophethood if they wanted to establish better relations with Muslims. In this connection, Küng underlines:

The same church must, in my opinion, also respect that the one whose name is absent from the same declaration out of embarrassment, although he and he alone led Muslims to pray to this one God, so that once again through him, Muhammad, the prophet, this God ‘has spoken to mankind’. (“World Religions” 129)

And

Küng continues to draw attention to the similarities of the teachings of the Biblical prophets and Muhammad by urging Christians to read the Quran and the Bible, especially the Old Testament, to find answers to the following questions:

Do not these three Semitic religions — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — have the same origin? Does not One and the same God speak loudly and clearly in these religions? Does not the Old Testament’s ‘Thus says the Lord’ correspond to the Quran’s ‘say’, as the Old Testament’s ‘go and tell’ matches the Quran’s ‘take you stand and warn’. (26)

He says that if Christians do this, it is impossible for them to answer these questions negatively. Thus, he concludes that “it is only dogmatic prejudice when we [Christians] recognize Amos and Hosea, Isaiah and Jeremiah, as prophets, but not Muhammad” (26).

http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2 ... et-of-god/


Cheers,
Shafique

So your 'scholars' of Christianity shrinks down to one scholar.

Why the need to lie by repeatedly pluralizing 'scholar' ?