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The "poor" common Pakistani (man, woman, or child) has been dealt another churlish blow, when OBL was discovered hiding in the Military's backyard. Through no fault of theirs, but through the shenanigans of a Government that is supposed to be representing them. The dominant power in Pakistan has been the Pak Army ever since the early days. The Army "controls" everything, including civilian Governments headed by corrupt and venal politicians who are too busy stealing money (as in cash) to care for anything else. President Zardari of Pakistan is perhaps one of the richest men on the planet.
The story that has been given out since Partition in 1947 is that the giant neighbor, India, is enemy no.1.
And the US controlled the Army. Or thought they did. Just as they did elsewhere in the Middle East.
Pakistan has no shortage of talent in any field: scientists, writers, films, arts, doctors. Some of the best too. Driving cabs or labourers is only part of it. However, these are individual endeavors.
It is my belief, that as long as the Pak Army remains the dominant power, Pakistan is going nowhere. However, getting rid of this monster, and its sister the ISI (its Intelligence arm), is another story.

I found this article in one of the English Language Dailies of Pakistan expressing the sentiments of the common people well: http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... t=5/8/2011

Pakistan is a failed state to say the least, The Northern areas are even a more failed state within a failed state if ever that was possible. Corruption is the norm.

Finding OBL in Pakistan, really isn't nothing new, afterall almost all such terrorist have been found in Pakistan from the first master mind of the WTC bombings, The killer of Daniel Pearl and now the ace of spades, OBL.

Its only now since 9/11 the country has come under the international media light but before that it was just as messed up as it is now. Its just more worse now that other than just having to deal with endless corrupt goverments, rampart corruption, lack of economic oppurtunity and all the other problems that a third world country brings, now the the ordinary person has to deal with the threat of terrorism and talibanisation aswell. It was just sometime back parts of the tribal areas were "freed"after a big military action where a taliban type puesdo govt had formed with bodies hanging from street lamps for petty crimes.

The Army is just part of the problem and not the only problem. The entire system needs to be overhauled if not abolished all togheter. Its only a matter of time before it all falls apart.

Best thing in view is to break it down into smaller countries or have some of the neighbours annex it. Punjab should become an independant country or join the Indian side of Punjab, also Sindh should go back to india. The Northern areas can go to Afghanistan and I believe majority there would prefer to be with their pashtoon brothers anyway and Balouchistan can go to Iran and club up with the Balouchis there.

Because on their own they have proven not capable of running a decent country. Personally I would not shed a tear if the US started to bring "freedom" to pakistan. It would be better off as a mandate of another country than being independant.

Maybe Canada's intrested to have a warm place to holiday in the winter months ?

^^The Great (EX) Moderator has spoken!
For someone who was born and raised in the UAE desert, with no rights whatsoever, you speak with great bravado as if you were an authority on Pakistan. I know where your veiws come from. I have met many half educated Pakis who say what you have mouthed off. "Failed State", "the entire system needs to be overhauled","corruption", and then of course the division of Pakistan, "Sindh should go to India, Punjab should go India," etc.
The implications of Pakistan imploding, a nation with 180 million people, will have consequences for the whole world, not just the regional countries like China and India. That should be easy to understand and why the rest of the world is anxious to see a more stable Pakistan.
As for your snide remark about the Northern Areas of Pakistan being the most corrupt: if you think I belong to the Northern Areas, then you are sadly mistaken. The Northern Areas are neither more nor less corrupt. They are quite beautiful and scenic.
I am a bit confused as to what you mean when you say Canada should come to Pakistan for the warm weather.
Was that supposed to be a dig at me or Canada?
I am still trying to work out what a "Mall crawler" is supposed to do?

I am a bit confused as to what you mean when you say Canada should come to Pakistan for the warm weather.

I think it was a dig at kanelli. She is saying Pakistan should be invaded on another topic!

Your awfully touchy this morning Zonks. I had no clue your are a pashtoon or live in Canada, so me directing this post to you or having a dig at you is out of the question.

I won't disagree the Northern Areas are some of the most beautifull places on the planet but that does not mean jack. Neither have I said they were more corrupt, but they are still the heart of this whole "terrorism" thing. Its an open gun culture with talibanesque falvours or do you deny that aswell ?

If the rest of the country gave them free hand to do what they like, it would not be too soon another Taliban type of rule would be setup, what am I saying it has already happened.

Where do the Taliban run, hide and resupply and go back to attack the ISAF forces in A'stan. If you read, watch any article, interview or documentry from any forces in A'stan or just the normal people their all say the same thing. That the biggest problem is Pakistans support for these "insurgents" i.e the pashtoon and the northern areas.

The biggest problem by far is by its people in its misplaced patroitism and that they can't see their own faults. If you don't see the problem then there is no way you can fix it. Pakistanis are very good at playing the blame game. Till now they blamed India for everything, now its the US and ofcourse India is still their.

There is no electricity in the house. The FBI must be behind it ! And I'm not kidding there are people like that there !

-- Mon May 09, 2011 4:12 pm --

Bethsmum wrote:

I am a bit confused as to what you mean when you say Canada should come to Pakistan for the warm weather.

I think it was a dig at kanelli. She is saying Pakistan should be invaded on another topic!

Actually I wrote that before K mentioned that and like I said I won't shed a single tear if that happened.

Since most Canadians always long for nice warm place of their own to vacation i.e like the Turks and Caicos I was just offering Pakistan as an alternative.

But I think nobody would want it the way it is now even if it gave it self up willingly !

I don't know enough about Pakistan, it seems like a pretty complicated country/government/military... All I can say is that Canada would not want to have anything to do with Pakistan, for holidaying or other otherwise.

kanelli wrote:I don't know enough about Pakistan, it seems like a pretty complicated country/government/military... All I can say is that Canada would not want to have anything to do with Pakistan, for holidaying or other otherwise.

So Kanelli, this thread is about Pakistan, so what are you doing here?
Or did you just want to get your kick in with DDS?
BTW, its very GRAND of you to speak on behalf of the WHOLE OF CANADA . Not even the real Queen would have ventured to do that. Is this what they call delusions of grandeur? You may correct me if I am wrong.
@DDS : To each his own. Reality is just a matter of perception anyway. I must say I find yours a little confusing.

zonker wrote:

kanelli wrote:I don't know enough about Pakistan, it seems like a pretty complicated country/government/military... All I can say is that Canada would not want to have anything to do with Pakistan, for holidaying or other otherwise.

So Kanelli, this thread is about Pakistan, so what are you doing here?
Or did you just want to get your kick in with DDS?
BTW, its very GRAND of you to speak on behalf of the WHOLE OF CANADA . Not even the real Queen would have ventured to do that. Is this what they call delusions of grandeur? You may correct me if I am wrong.
@DDS : To each his own. Reality is just a matter of perception anyway. I must say I find yours a little confusing.

Zonker, DDS was joking that Canada would want to take over and turn Pakistan into a warm-weather holiday destination for Canadians a la Turks and Caicos Islands. I think I can safely speak for all the non-Pakistani Canadians, that Canada would not be interested in such a plan.

Methinks zonker is itching for a fight with someone... anyone! Who will have him?

^^Kanelli, I know many many white non-Pakistani Canadians as close friends. They are all wonderful people and would do anything to help Pakistan sort itself out. So, I can testify that you are totally wrong there.
However, I do come across the occasional white Canadian who thinks like you. They are usually from the backwaters of small town/rural Canada. The word red-neck, hick, or yokel comes to mind.
So please, speak for yourself, not the whole of Canada, which is a wonderful country, and certainly does not deserve this kind of an image. People like yourself are in a minority here. All Canadians are well-integrated. We are working on the red-necks, I am sure they will see the folly of their ways; or just become extinct!
Peace!!

zonker, did you miss the whole joke part of what DDS wrote?

Your attempt to insult me was ridiculous in light of the fact that I was posting regarding DDS's joke! Get a grip!

Seriously though, what have your non-Pakistani Canadian friends said about helping Pakistan? You said they "would do anything to help Pakistan sort itself out." So what would they commit themselves or Canadian resources to?

I've checked the CBC website and don't find fellow Canadians calling for our military to be sent into Pakistan to set up democracy, deal with all the internal tribal issues, and root out terrorism. Hmm, no word from the Foreign Affairs office either - http://www.international.gc.ca/internat ... x?lang=eng

zonker wrote:^^Kanelli, I know many many white non-Pakistani Canadians as close friends. They are all wonderful people and would do anything to help Pakistan sort itself out. So, I can testify that you are totally wrong there.
However, I do come across the occasional white Canadian who thinks like you. They are usually from the backwaters of small town/rural Canada. The word red-neck, hick, or yokel comes to mind.
So please, speak for yourself, not the whole of Canada, which is a wonderful country, and certainly does not deserve this kind of an image. People like yourself are in a minority here. All Canadians are well-integrated. We are working on the red-necks, I am sure they will see the folly of their ways; or just become extinct!
Peace!!

Zonker, I think your saying that Canadians (white non-Pakistani, which is to say generational Canadians, "would do anything to help Pakistan sort itself out" is a bit of a stretch. Just how would that work? Pakistan will never become a France/Spain/UK/US/Italy, etc., as a holiday destination - internationally.

If you compare the Canadians you describe to Americans (generational) (excluding the rednecks, hicks, and backwater yokels) both groups really don't give a crap about Pakistan. Yes, it's a beautiful country, but it really doesn't have much more to offer. The rednecks, hicks, and backwater yokels, think crossing the Mason/Dixon line is entering foreign land.

Zonks you need to get off that Chivas every now and then, me thinks. My "reality" is only confusing to people who live in denial.

What good is being a Nuclear power when a huge percentage of its population does not get the bare minimum. Like Power, running water. Mediocre health care and education are way off the list.

Basicaly it is just like any sub saharan African country. Not poor but poorly managed. The land lord culture prevails. There are still bonded slaves working on farms in the south while the lawless taliban-ish gun culture rules the north. tar

Actual true story. Two entire clans wiped out, why ? Because one of the goats strayed and started to graze on someone else's patch. The guy saw this and shot the goat. The owner in turned shot the guy who shot the goat. This went on until only one elderly grandfather from one of the clans was left !

I had a pashtoon work for our bussiness here a very humble educated person from a respectable family whose father worked his entire life in the railway and was now a pensioner. His brother was falsely implicated in murder in the tribe. Although not at fault they paid whatever they had as blood money as dictated by the elders and left town for Lahore. His father sent him to Dubai but his brother stayed back. After 10 years they tracked him down and shot his brother and now his life is in danger. He left working for us after around 15 yrs a few years back, basicaly tired of life on the run and went back. Haven't heard from him since. I only pray he is alright.

The terrorism problem clearly lies in the northern region. Until this "Topak zama qanoon" ( Phusto for the Gun is my law ) mentality exists.

DDS, you post as if you weren't a Pakistani. I've never met a person so 'in denial' as you!
At least Zonker is proud of his heritage and clearly wishes the best for his country. I admire that.

Jeez...Is that more hot air I feel drifting in. The rip in the old wind bag must have gotten bigger

desertdudeshj wrote:Jeez...Is that more hot air I feel drifting in. The rip in the old wind bag must have gotten bigger

No answer to my post I see!

Must be getting bigger as I speak, I can hear fluttering now !

desertdudeshj wrote:Must be getting bigger as I speak, I can hear fluttering now !

It's your nervous stomach! LOL

I think some of us have missed the point of my original post which was to emphasize the concern of ordinary educated and decent people in Pakistan of how their country was run in their name, and who was to be held responsible. This is certainly not a post extolling the tourism potential of Pakistan. Or concern for what generational Americans or Canadians think about Pakistan. Or for Canadian troops to roll into Pakistan to impose democracy.
However, Bora, I must point out to you that the US Govt. is concerned enough about Pak to the tune of about $15 billion yearly. I dont think this money is given out of the goodness of the American heart.
@DDS: Your post about goats and vendettas is a total confused hotch potch. Comming from such a background, you had probably no other alternative but to settle in Dubai. I pity you because you seem chirpy and happy, but the reality is that you have no status there. You are like a non-person. How bad is that? Violent crime rates are quite appalling in many major cities of the world. You name one and I can give you statistics that will make your blood run cold.
I doubt if you understand any of what I am saying.
After all, I drink Chivas Regal, and am respectful to the ladies. Whereas, you drink the Holy Water, and have a most uncivilized attitude. Thats why I said to each his own.

zonker wrote:However, Bora, I must point out to you that the US Govt. is concerned enough about Pak to the tune of about $15 billion yearly.

Any reference(s) for that number?

Whatever zonker, you're just itching for a fight or are over-sensitive beyond logic. I said nothing but the facts - Pakistan is not a priority for Canadians and it would never be a vacation hot-spot like Turks and Caicos Islands. (It was a joke from DDS!) There are crappy things happening to people, countries, and governments all over the world, not just Pakistan. There is nothing racist, redneck, or uncivilized about saying that.

zonker wrote:However, Bora, I must point out to you that the US Govt. is concerned enough about Pak to the tune of about $15 billion yearly.

Zonker, the US has given a total of $15 billon since 2001, not yearly. It was money that was to, for one thing, bolster the Pakistan military, in an effort to fight terrorism. Between Musharraf and Zadari, they became very rich men indeed and the military is no better off today than it was before the aid. Zadari picked up where Benezar left off when it came to helping himself to money that was meant for his country. After he became president he went to certain countries (the UAE (AD) for one) with his hand out looking for more money. His requests were declined. What ever happened to Zadari's promises? It appears that Pakistan is worse off today than before he become President. He has literally taken businesses, including banks, from people. It is amazing how a small group of thieves/thugs/bandits can hold an entire country hostage, as well as selling them out, for their own benefit.

There is a saying: the devil you know, the devil you don't know. How the people of Pakistan voted Zadari in is beyond belief considering he was known for being a thief, along with Benezar, before they fled Pakistan. Even if Zadari had US support to get into the position of being President, he is cut from the same cloth as Karzai, who the US helped to put back in power. It seems the US continuously prostitutes itself by sleeping with the enemy. Hopefully the US will wake up one day.

Whatever Zonks, I guess its true what they say about pathans and walnuts afterall, both have the same sized brains.

And go have your beloved Chivas in your homeland or try to be nice to the ladies. Before the day is out you'd be found hanging from a lamp post, if your lucky that is.

desertdudeshj wrote:Whatever Zonks, I guess its true what they say about pathans and walnuts afterall, both have the same sized brains.

And go have your beloved Chivas in your homeland or try to be nice to the ladies. Before the day is out you'd be found hanging from a lamp post, if your lucky that is.

It's your homeland too Munchkin, a fact you seem to ignore
BTW Any luck obtaining a passport? Any passport?

Seems to be getting a bit warm in here ? Oh nevermind, its ol' wind bag blowing hot air again...as usual.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

zonker wrote:However, Bora, I must point out to you that the US Govt. is concerned enough about Pak to the tune of about $15 billion yearly.

Any reference(s) for that number?

Here is a reference, and there are many more if you "Google it"! I must admit that that is not an exact figure.
http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/179207.html
However, there are a lot of Americans, and others, including Chinese, in Pakistan. They are not tourists, I can assure you. They are there to do "business". According to this article, Pakistan is given cash of over $4.5 billion annually, but add to that the cost of maintaining personnel on the ground etc. and you will arrive at my figure, or near to it.
@Kanelli: No Kanelli, I am not "itching" for a fight! I was just trying to point out that you cannot represent all Canadians. Certainly not the Canadian Govt. which too is rather heavily involved in the AF-Pak region.
@Bora: This time, I agree with you, to a certain extent. I think it must be the Chardonnay. However, do go back a little more in recent history of the region. The trouble started in 1979, when the former Soviet Union "invaded" Afghanistan, and the West decided to take them on through their proxy, Pakistan. Every dirty trick in the book was used, including terrorist training.The rest is history. Now they are trying to put the genie back in the bottle, not very successfully I dare say.
@ DDS: Ah, BM's little munchkin!! I never realized that a Walnut had a brain! If it does, as you seem to think, then so do you!
Are you still hanging on to your Pakistani passport? Why dont you just chuck it away, you are better off without it.
I wish I could say that you are good for some comic releif!
No, wait! There is someone here who enjoys your "jokes", so carry on!

desertdudeshj wrote:Seems to be getting a bit warm in here ? Oh nevermind, its ol' wind bag blowing hot air again...as usual.

Boo!

Hey Zonks got another one for ya

A Pathan was sitting outside a clinic and crying profusely.
Another pathan came along and asked,
"Why are you crying?"
"I came here for a blood test"
"So ? Are you afraid? "
"No, its not that. During the blood test they cut my finger"
Hearing this the second pathan also started crying. The first one was astonished and asked the other, "Why are you crying ?"
The other replied, "I have come for my urine test !"

Cheers

desertdudeshj wrote:Hey Zonks got another one for ya

A Pathan was sitting outside a clinic and crying profusely.
Another pathan came along and asked,
"Why are you crying?"
"I came here for a blood test"
"So ? Are you afraid? "
"No, its not that. During the blood test they cut my finger"
Hearing this the second pathan also started crying. The first one was astonished and asked the other, "Why are you crying ?"
The other replied, "I have come for my urine test !"

Cheers

Er? I don't get it munchkin Do you need to be Pakistani to be in on it?

DDS, you're being a jerk

zonker, how are you fit to represent all of Pakistan in this "discussion".

@BM: I dont get your munchkins joke either! This probably refers to some peasant goat-herds in his past whose experiences he is reaching into.

@Kanelli: Awww you called him a jerk!!
Kanelli, I dont represent Pakistan at all! Whatever gave you that idea? Its just my version of things. Since you have no interest in Pakistan and I am sure never had any, how can you know if I am right or wrong?
But I think I may be quite close to the reality and how things actually are there.