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raidah wrote:

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

which leads to men being insecure if they cant be the only ones to play the provider role in the family

*hugs my little bunny*

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

May i add fabulous too

Corcovado wrote:

kanelli wrote:

MaaaD wrote:No she is Israeli .. I blame the Mossad for this one.

I'm Scottish/Welsh Canadian Feminist Vegetarian Atheist Humanist.

May i add fabulous too

Ditto darling!

The younger a girl develops, the more likely she is to have her bosom ironed -- 38 percent of girls developing breasts under the age of 11 had undergone the procedure.

The practice is most common in the Christian and animist South of the country, rather than in the Muslim North and Far North provinces, where only 10 percent of women are affected.

even 10% is too high, but enough said. yet it turns into talks about muslim culture. [/quote]

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

Exactly Nick! Women can and do protect themselves, and they are certainly not inferior. S.e.xual abuse from family, friends or strangers happens to women all over the world, whether they shroud themselves in cloth or not.

Humans are biologically ingrained to be attracted to each other and mate for the purpose of propogating the species, just like any other animal on this planet. Just as men want to bed women, there are women who are equally interested in bedding men. Does that mean that men need protection from female "wolves"? Should men shroud themselves in cloth to protect them from women who find them s.e.xually attractive?

In cultures where women are allowed to dress as they please, there is far less harrassment on the street. The rape rates might be higher but those are because alcohol and mixed communication are involved on the dating scene, not because a woman is not covered in cloth from head to toe.

Shrouding myself from head to toe in black cloth would feel to me like people were trying to cover me up like I don't exist. It would feel odd to talk with people who can't even see my facial expressions. I enjoy the fact that I have studied, worked and lived in mixed gender groups and I don't ever feel like I need to hide my body to protect myself from men, even here in Dubai where leering at women is a sport for some groups of men.

kanelli wrote:

Nick81 wrote:

The woman is a precious Jewell .. this Jewel should be protected and away from theves. Males are like wolves who are waiting for the pray, once they have what they want they will walk out

While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

Exactly Nick! Women can and do protect themselves, and they are certainly not inferior. S.e.xual abuse from family, friends or strangers happens to women all over the world, whether they shroud themselves in cloth or not.

Humans are biologically ingrained to be attracted to each other and mate for the purpose of propogating the species, just like any other animal on this planet. Just as men want to bed women, there are women who are equally interested in bedding men. Does that mean that men need protection from female "wolves"? Should men shroud themselves in cloth to protect them from women who find them s.e.xually attractive?

In cultures where women are allowed to dress as they please, there is far less harrassment on the street. The rape rates might be higher but those are because alcohol and mixed communication are involved on the dating scene, not because a woman is not covered in cloth from head to toe.

Shrouding myself from head to toe in black cloth would feel to me like people were trying to cover me up like I don't exist. It would feel odd to talk with people who can't even see my facial expressions. I enjoy the fact that I have studied, worked and lived in mixed gender groups and I don't ever feel like I need to hide my body to protect myself from men, even here in Dubai where leering at women is a sport for some groups of men.

Very well said K.

terranova wrote:

The younger a girl develops, the more likely she is to have her bosom ironed -- 38 percent of girls developing breasts under the age of 11 had undergone the procedure.

The practice is most common in the Christian and animist South of the country, rather than in the Muslim North and Far North provinces, where only 10 percent of women are affected.

even 10% is too high, but enough said. yet it turns into talks about muslim culture.

[/quote]

terranova

Once again for people can't seem to follow this thread. This topic is about breast ironing to protect girls from rape. Issues like female genital mutilation and women having to hide their entire body from men came into this thread because they are related to suppression of women in male dominated societies and religions. No one said anywhere that Islam is to blame for everything. Too many people get touchy if you mention the word "Islam". As was already stated, many religions are patriarchal, including Christianity, Judaism etc. There are Jewish women who wear scarves or wigs to cover their hair, and who wear longs skirts and stockings, and long blouses to cover their body. In some places, women cover their hair in a scarf when attending mass in a Catholic church. Nuns (and monks) wear conservative traditional dress. Some of this discussion has focused on Islam because the Quran calls for all Muslim women to cover themselves. Some people are challenging the notion that women are delicate and men are predators - so women need to cover up and protect their "modesty". This is related to patriarchal viewpoints that are relevant to this discussion thread.

Nick81 wrote:
While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

I think you missed the point - crystals normally are used to resemble: pureness and transperancy .. when a ""crystal"" get cracked.. then no way one earth you can fix this crack.

Thats why you have to be very gentle with crystals not to cause any crack "by hurting them emotionally". So plz dont take it materialistically


The woman doesnt need someone to protect here!! well woman start saying that when they start finding them selves alone ... when their males start leaving them for a reason or for nothing.. just he is bored .. or what ever. but... yes.. she can take care of her self.. but would she choose that if she finds the right MAN .. i mean "The MAN". Well i dont believe so! i dont think that husbands are meant to be there for physical needs only!! are they??

Woman who say that woman can take care of them selves.... i say to them: YES woman can do that.. but ... would they like that.. would they Choose that?! normally such statments comes up when the woman is really hurt and she is feed up with all the a$$wholes around.. and i dont blame her at all in such situations.

touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

kanelli wrote:
Shrouding myself from head to toe in black cloth would feel to me like people were trying to cover me up like I don't exist. It would feel odd to talk with people who can't even see my facial expressions. I enjoy the fact that I have studied, worked and lived in mixed gender groups and I don't ever feel like I need to hide my body to protect myself from men, even here in Dubai where leering at women is a sport for some groups of men.

i won't use a word like Shrouding for this case Kan .

No one says that the cover should be for the face and in black.. there is nothing in islam is like that. its the Emiratis Culture here. in ohter cultures.. women are covering them selves differently.. and decently..

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

Well terranova, you are free to bring up any examples of other religions and to discuss your own views on the double standards that Muslims are faced with instead of just criticising that Islam is being discussed again.

Let's hear your thoughts. Don't forget, the central aim of this discussion is patriarchal societies and the suppression of women to accomodate men and their ideas of women.

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

i forgot to add please

and no i won't point blame at other religions, i'm not an expert on any of those issues, and this is one "jihad" i'd rather not fight.

i just find it necessary to step in when i see people pushing the boundaries on what i see as legitimate criticism of my religion

Intimacy wrote:

Nick81 wrote:
While I do agree a woman is precious she's not made of porcelain. This is exactly the mentality that lead to women being considered inferior to men. They can protect themselves and do NOT need men to live well in any society.

I think you missed the point - crystals normally are used to resemble: pureness and transperancy .. when a ""crystal"" get cracked.. then no way one earth you can fix this crack.

Thats why you have to be very gentle with crystals not to cause any crack "by hurting them emotionally". So plz dont take it materialistically


The woman doesnt need someone to protect here!! well woman start saying that when they start finding them selves alone ... when their males start leaving them for a reason or for nothing.. just he is bored .. or what ever. but... yes.. she can take care of her self.. but would she choose that if she finds the right MAN .. i mean "The MAN". Well i dont believe so! i dont think that husbands are meant to be there for physical needs only!! are they??

Woman who say that woman can take care of them selves.... i say to them: YES woman can do that.. but ... would they like that.. would they Choose that?! normally such statments comes up when the woman is really hurt and she is feed up with all the a$$wholes around.. and i dont blame her at all in such situations.

So men can be impure and cracked, but their women have to be perfect?

There are men who fall for women and go to bed with them, but then the woman dumps him and breaks his heart. It is a stereotype that men use women for s.ex. because women can use men for s.ex just as easily.

Both men and women are capable of mentally, physically and s.e.xually abusing each other. The stereotype is that women are sugar and spice and everything nice and they need to be sheltered and protected, when really that isn't the case.

If men and women want to live together as a couple, then they are there to support and compliment each other's lives. Each person should have a chance to be dominant or submissive in some cases, depending on their own individual talents, strengths and weaknesses in certain matters or situations. It is really a disadvantage to women to be treated like naive children that the husband has the divine right to rule over for her own "protection".

terranova wrote:

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

i forgot to add please

and no i won't point blame at other religions, i'm not an expert on any of those issues, and this is one "jihad" i'd rather not fight.

i just find it necessary to step in when i see people pushing the boundaries on what i see as legitimate criticism of my religion

fanatism is not the "privilege" of one religion or another.
stupidity also has nothing to do with religion. its ppl that make a society narrow minded, a religion fanatic and s.e.x taboo and sin. its ppl's ignorance that make smthing so spiritual like faith become quastionable, and smthing so natural as physical contact seem dirty.

terranova wrote:

terranova wrote:touchy? hardy har har.

i can see all the talk we've been having about orthodox jewish men and their treatment of women, or perhaps the mormons allowing polygamy? this thread is positively deluged with objectivity.

stop being defensive and reflect a bit more on the double standards people treat muslims with.

i forgot to add please

and no i won't point blame at other religions, i'm not an expert on any of those issues, and this is one "jihad" i'd rather not fight.

i just find it necessary to step in when i see people pushing the boundaries on what i see as legitimate criticism of my religion

So terranova, you ARE being touchy about your religion. Just to let you know, I am an atheist so I criticise all religion.

Is Islam a patriarchal religion or not? If you can prove to me that it isn't, then I won't discuss it in this relevant thread, along with the other patriarchal religions I have already brought up.

Intimacy, I know that the face doesn't have to be covered, but Islam is practiced in many different ways and there are women who cover their faces, hands and feet as well so that no skin is exposed at all. If Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women want to cover their body and hair and leave only their face and hands out, that is their choice, but I find it extreme. What kind of god makes men's bodies acceptable, but women's bodies taboo?

i guess you didn't read the "legitimate criticism" part of my message, but of course to you i'm just another raving touchy muslim who refuses to listen to reason.

and the atheist argument is weak. That's like making racist jokes and saying I make fun of all races so it's alright. do you know how that holds up in a court of law? it doesn't

terranova wrote:i guess you didn't read the "legitimate criticism" part of my message, but of course to you i'm just another raving touchy muslim who refuses to listen to reason.

and the atheist argument is weak. That's like making racist jokes and saying I make fun of all races so it's alright. do you know how that holds up in a court of law? it doesn't

Actually, I said no such thing. Those are your words. I only said that you are being oversensitive about the discussion of your religion. You still haven't said why you feel my criticism isn't legitimate, and you haven't discussed at all whether you feel that Islam is a patriarchal religion. You came to this thread to criticise me instead of actually discussing the topics at hand and bringing up counter arguments.

So atheists are the equivalent of racists, just discriminating against religions? Gee, there is a great track record through history of religious people being tolerant of other religions. My atheism argument is not weak at all, because it is relevant to the fact that I will never accept "the Bible/Quran/Torah etc. says it is so, so it must be so" argument that I often hear from religious folk. I criticise and question religion because I am free to do it, especially when it does damage to society and individuals.

kanelli wrote:
So men can be impure and cracked, but their women have to be perfect?

Did i say that?!!

What i have said is just the opposite!! i dont know how i was interpreted like that!!

Both men and women are capable of mentally, physically and s.e.xually abusing each other. The stereotype is that women are sugar and spice and everything nice and they need to be sheltered and protected, when really that isn't the case.

Did i say anything which goes against this?!!!

If men and women want to live together as a couple, then they are there to support and compliment each other's lives. Each person should have a chance to be dominant or submissive in some cases, depending on their own individual talents, strengths and weaknesses in certain matters or situations. It is really a disadvantage to women to be treated like naive children that the husband has the divine right to rule over for her own "protection".

Kan, i still dont get it whatever i was saying pours into this!!

where is the issue then?!

Intimacy, I interpreted your posts as justifications for why women are supposed to be covered and kept away from men outside their families until they are married. Your original posts focus on the fragility of women and their need for protection - you talked about women being like crystals, not men being like crystals. You talked about how men are the predators...

kanelli wrote:Intimacy, I interpreted your posts as justifications for why women are supposed to be covered and kept away from men outside their families until they are married. Your original posts focus on the fragility of women and their need for protection - you talked about women being like crystals, not men being like crystals. You talked about how men are the predators...

and how does this offences the women!?

I give up.

Oh come on Kan ...

kanelli, i didn't come to criticize you, but rather question why the arguments about religious issues always focus on islam, and why they always always always focus on the stereotypical muslim image.

anyways, i don't want to argue with you and you are free to criticize who you please. do keep it reasonable though

All so amusing

Let me just say that I am glad I was born a woman in the country that I was with the background that I was in this day in age. I'm in a far better position than fellow women-folk around the world or in decades before me. Hopefully men will evolve at some point, but maybe they need a few more decades.

This is looking like a thread that needs to be tranfered to teh religion forum.

As for the topic itself, keep it up guys, I find it all amusing

I agree with Liban - can this be toned down please or i will split

many thanks

arniegang wrote:I agree with Liban - can this be toned down please or i will split

many thanks

You 'Ve got The Power

I have

but i did ask very nicely first.

arniegang wrote:I have

but i did ask very nicely first.

I like cheese... Will this be split now?

please stay on topic Liban

now can we get back to some donkey stories or swallow stories/posts please