Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum

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Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted Apr 06, 2010
Since I have been informed that I am misinterpreting one of the 'clear' verses in the Koran I have decided to devote a thread entirely on what the Koran says about wife beating and what women should do according to allah.

The Koran says about wife beating in verse 4:34 (Pickhtall translation):

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


And translated by Arberry:

Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.


So, from this verse, we learn a few things.

1) Men are in charge of women.

2) Good women are obedient to their husbands.

3) If husbands *fear* or *suspect* 'rebellion', then men are to a) inform his wife that she is rebelling, b) send her to her room, c) and beat her.

4) Lastly, the verse says that if a wife obeys her husband again, the husband should no longer beat his wife (until she disobeys again).

A few things to point out.

The Koran never says that a husband must first tell his wife that she is disobedient then wait for her to slip up again before he can ground her and then beat her. The Koran simply says what husbands should do to a wife if she disobeys. But I cannot see any indication that a wife must rebel two more times before she is beaten.

To me, a literal and straight forward reading from both translations says that husbands may simply yell at their wives, then send them to their rooms and beat them there.

Regardless as to how the actual punishment is to be dispensed, the passage also leaves a lot of room for what a husband may beat his wife for.

The passage simply says that men may beat their wives if they *suspect* rebellion - whatever that means.

Therefore, not only may a husband beat his wife for not obeying him, but the husband need only suspect that she is disobeying him.

Now, I'm a bit old fashioned, but this passage, no matter how loftily it is interpreted (or its contents ignored), is horribly backwards and misogynist.

Only those living in the seventh century could justify a straightforward interpretation of this passage - and, as we have seen from this thread on 'wife beating - the muslim perspective' dubai-politics-talk/wife-beating-the-muslim-perspective-t39819.html , the clerics and scholars explaining how wife beating should be carried out, go to great pains to point out that disgust towards wife beating is a Western import - the clerics in the videos will often say that Muslims only question the verses of the Koran after Westerners criticize wife beating, statutory rape or jihad.

So, it looks like modern ethics and morality in the Muslim world, as backwards as it is, is a gift from the West.

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted Apr 07, 2010
Well, you say tomato..

What I read in these clear verses is God's clear instructions as to what is allowed when it comes to physical punishment of a spouse.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Therefore the instructions from God are clear and don't match the spin that 'eh' wants to put on God's teachings.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted Apr 07, 2010
Therefore, not only may a husband beat his wife for not obeying him, but the husband need only suspect that she is disobeying him.


Brother, There is no need to suspect someone if there is no smoke..A smoke is only apparent where there is a fire..Kind of immoral/unjustified disobedience and rebellion can only be the actions of someone who practices them without a concerning thought, leaving no doubt in husbands mind.
In reality, a believing husband would most probably NEVER come to the stage where he would actually lay a hand on his wife. He would be much too careful to examine his own motives first, as a God fearing man, before exercising this right.

Could you please read this article ( which I coudn't have written better with my own words) and tell us where
it's failing to convince you...
http://islamicperspective.org/SP/2000/jun/page2.html

ps. could you also please explain what you understand from disobedience and rebellion of a wife? and its significance in keeping a united happy family which is the very basic social core of a society..A happy, modest, honorable, role model core of a society...If we can't achieve it in our families how else can we achieve it otherwise in society...In my mind Individualism certainly don't unit people for good and it tears apart social dinamics of a society as well as a nations...
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Oh geez man, how delusional can this guy get?

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok


LoL

we are not allowed to beat women in anger.


Really? Where does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger?

You can't just go around making these claims up, you know.

I would imagine after telling your wife not once, not twice, but three times (!) to make you sammiches, that you're going be putting some force into those swings.

I mean, just after repeating myself a half dozen times on this forum to the reading impaired gets me frustrated.

Now just imagine that Muslim husband, who has no compunction to slapping his wife around because he is not from a society that condemns domestic violence, having to tell his lazy wife for the third time to wash the dishes.

If that husband doesn't get angry by then, I'll get angry for him!

This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.


They're just Islamophobes who don't see the beauty in beating your wife after you first sent her off to her room like a child.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out


Lol.

Pray tell, what is this 'rare' exception clearly delineated in the Koran?

(I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).


Nope, no s.exism in Islam.

BTW, that reminds me of the story of a newlywed couple on their way back from the altar in 19th century America.

The newlyweds are riding in a carriage and the donkey veers off the path. The husband gets out and says, 'donkey, that's once.'.

So, they go a further distance and the donkey goes off of the path another time. The man gets out and says, 'that's twice'.

A little later, the donkey goes off the road a third time and the man gets out, pulls out his pistol and shoots the donkey.

The wife goes, 'Why did you just shoot the donkey!'.

The husband goes, 'That's once'.


But hey, I'm really glad that you don't know any Muslim husbands who have slapped their wives around. I guess your friends only need to tell their wives to get the dishes washed...just once.

:roll:
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 12, 2010
Hey, eh - as I said before, once you start dating you'll have a different perspective.

Thanks for sharing your interpretations though - nice to see that you haven't picked up any new arguments in your absence. ;)

Will you get round to defending the Bible's claim that the earth can stop rotating for a whole day?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
My interpretation is pretty straight-forward - there is none of this three strike business.

As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.


Yell at your wife, then send her to her room and, while there, beat her.

But hey, I'm not really convinced that giving one's wife two free passes to obey her husband before the kiddie gloves come off is really that much better.

And you're right, I guess I don't have the experience that you have under your belt to want to beat someone up for not making you sammiches.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 12, 2010
Yes, as we've established many times before - you think your interpretations are correct.

It appears you also seem to think you're funny (and to be fair, sometimes you do indeed make me chuckle).

May I refer you to my previous quotes about Ad Hominem attacks and what they say about your arguments? ;)

Cheers,
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Man, that must suck for you that you aren't a mod on this subforum anymore (I just noticed this).

The good thing about being overweight, is that you really don't need to have your belt on at all times, including when you lay down the law on your wife for not making you sammiches.

She's just doing it for your health, you could stand to lose a few more stones.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 12, 2010
:)

Nice to see you've completely lost the argument, young man.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
philosophy-dubai/wife-beating-the-koran-split-from-politics-forum-t41127.html#p336275

Still waiting for a response - where does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger?

What is the 'rare exception' that a man may beat his wife?
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
You quoted 4.34 in your original post. God states that sequence of punishments - only the last in the sequence is physical punishment. Ergo, one does not have the permission/right to batter one's wife.

shafique wrote:What I read in these clear verses is God's clear instructions as to what is allowed when it comes to physical punishment of a spouse.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).

Therefore the instructions from God are clear and don't match the spin that 'eh' wants to put on God's teachings.

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
ooooo welcome back brother, I was expecting a new tolerant transformed young man coming back..Do you think you are now? You know that the ex world order is over, you too must have a new one now..

Shafique wrote:
Nice to see you've completely lost the argument, young man.

ssschhhh brother he is a young lost man you see..He must me preparing himself for his future life and wife to be, so lets help him under the guidance of his true religion from birth to be.. But obviously it would be more insightful if he found a course on islamic studies instead of getting at loggerheads with us all the time...

Still waiting for a response - where does the Koran say you can't beat your wife in anger?

Your true religion from birth to be not only says you can't beat your wife in anger but even a single being! be it human, animal, plants, trees, material etc etc.

"Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous - Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain (their) anger and pardon (all) men - for God loves those who do good." (Qur'an:3:133-134)

"Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily, to them will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions." (Qur'an:16:97)

"Those who suppress their anger, and forgive other people – assuredly, Allah loves those who do good." (Qur'an 3:134)

Kind words and forgiveness are better than charity followed by injury." (Qur'an:2:261-263)
"If you do judge, judge between them justly. God loves the just." (Our'an: 5:42)

Our Prophet also forbade actions to be done in anger. He said;
-"The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

What is the 'rare exception' that a man may beat his wife?


Those rare exceptions are cases in which a wife persists in bad habits and showing contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases.

How about this two type of women whom you have children with..
The first type: Strong willed, demanding and commandeering women. These are the type of women who like to control, master and run the affairs of their husbands by pushing them around, commanding them and giving them orders.

The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"

Mrs. Annie Besant compared Islamic Laws and Western legislation on women's rights and said:

"Islamic Laws are among the best laws known to the world, insofar as woman is concerned. It is the most fair and just legislation. It exceeds the Western legislation concerning real estate, inheritance and divorce laws. It acts as a guardian for women's rights. Phrases such as One Wife is Sufficient for a man, and Polygamy, mystified people and turned them away from the real misery which Western women suffer from and live through. Many husbands left their wives after they got what they wanted from them. In fact such men show no care, concern or mercy for their wives."

So lets see brother if you will be able to judge and judge between them justly!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
I see the wife beating supporters are still at it!

Those rare exceptions are cases in which a wife persists in bad habits and showing contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases.


Yes, I also read Shafique claiming that wife beating can be a beatifull thing, a gift from god, especially when it prevents divorce. Truely beyond mind boggling!Sick to the core!

The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.


HOLY F*CK! Sweet Jesus.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"


Fascinating...
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
sniff, sniff - what's that I smell? Could it be a whiff of desperation? :mrgreen:

So we have eh dreaming of Danny Devito look-a-likes (makes a change from Afghan boys!) and now FD imagining ecstatic wife beatings as a sign of piety. :mrgreen:

What weird interpretations you guys have of a straightforward verse of the Quran!

Cheers,
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:FD imagining ecstatic wife beatings as a sign of piety.


How is that? This is where you always get to be the pathetic chubby man you are. You must have confused me with Berrin.

shafique wrote:What weird interpretations you guys have of a straightforward verse of the Quran


Your argument is with Berrin.

It speaks volumes that you make up things about the posters that protest against wife beating, while staying silent when another is advocating wife beating.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, I also read Shafique claiming that wife beating can be a beatifull thing, a gift from god, especially when it prevents divorce. Truely beyond mind boggling!Sick to the core!


Hmm, you seem to have a funny way of spelling 'Berrin'. :mrgreen:

:drunken:
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Yes, I also read Shafique claiming that wife beating can be a beatifull thing, a gift from god, especially when it prevents divorce. Truely beyond mind boggling!Sick to the core!


Hmm, you seem to have a funny way of spelling 'Berrin'. :mrgreen:

:drunken:


Stay off the booze man. Obviously you cannot handle it and makes you look extremely stupid.

:D
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 12, 2010
:)


Good advice. I wouldn't want to look like this:
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
:lol:

Good God..It's just so true that you can not ever get anywhere with anyone who has so much hate against God and its religion.
It too fasinates me how wild they take the interpretation of the verses of the quran and the teachings of our prophet when they don't mean what they think they are! They take it as if it's you're only choice to smash and crash the whole earth on women to save the marriage.. So perheps those who take interest in religion should first go and study human psychology,psychiatry and behavioural science..only than they may understand human nature and establish truth about what God is saying to his pathetic ignorant creatures like yourselves.

Go and get yourselves a life guys if you can never ever know how to talk, ponder and reflect on what is said and written rather than getting histeric and mind blown all the time..

Dear Mods, I would not like to see such human creatures on P&R forums who cannot defend their point of you in silent good manner other than using F&uck and swear words!...For me it's just an interpration of their state as loosing their own arguments!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Berrin wrote:It too fasinates me how wild they take the interpretation of the verses of the quran and the teachings of our prophet when they don't mean what they think they are!


You are arguing with yourself:

Berrin wrote:women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.


Berrin wrote:So perheps those who take interest in religion should first go and study human psychology,psychiatry and behavioural science..only than they may understand human nature and establish truth about what God is saying to his pathetic ignorant creatures like yourselves.


Obviously you studied it very well, and came to the following conclusion:

Berrin wrote:women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
FD - are you having a bad day or something?

Your selective quote above is quite telling.



Let's examine what you did:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Obviously you studied it very well, and came to the following conclusion:

Berrin wrote:
women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.



And here is Berrin's quote in context
..

Berrin wrote:The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"


So, Berrin gives you a summary of what Holdfield says about 'subdued women' and you wilfully decide to ignore that he's just quoting a psychologist.

I expect eh to resort to such tactics, but you never used to sink to such depths. Is it just an off day?

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:FD - are you having a bad day or something?

Your selective quote above is quite telling.



Let's examine what you did:
Flying Dutchman wrote:Obviously you studied it very well, and came to the following conclusion:

Berrin wrote:
women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.



And here is Berrin's quote in context
..

Berrin wrote:The second type: Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.

G. A. Holdfield, a European psychologist, in his book Psychology and Morals states the following:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"


So, Berrin gives you a summary of what Holdfield says about 'subdued women' and you wilfully decide to ignore that he's just quoting a psychologist.

I expect eh to resort to such tactics, but you never used to sink to such depths. Is it just an off day?

Cheers,
Shafique


Let the wife beater advocate speak for himself. Defending wife beaters now hey? How low can you go...with you there doesn't seem to be a limit.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
double post.
Thank you Shafique..
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:Let the wife beater advocate speak for himself. Defending wife beaters now hey? How low can you go...with you there doesn't seem to be a limit.


You do realise that name-calling and quoting people out of context shows that you don't really have a leg to stand on.

But just for clarity, are you saying that G A Holdfield beats his wife? I personally am not sure that Holdfield is a man or a woman - are you?

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
It really is mind boggling that, despite claims to contrary, the proponents for wife beating don't understand that their excuses for wife beating *are* understood by its detractors - we (FD and I) are simply floored by the reasoning that there is not much for us to respond to.

Unfortunately, the wife beating proponents actually see this as a sign of 'victory' that because no one here has addressed their current support for wife beating, their argument must be sound.

As I said, the current argument for wife beating and the Koran verse which sanctions it reminds me *exactly* of the joke/story I heard earlier in the thread:

'Once there was a husband and wife who had just bought a new mule. They were walking it down the street when the mule trips over a stone. The husband says, “That's one!”
They walk some more, when the mule trips over a stone again and the husband says, “That's two!”
Then the mule trips over a stone again. The husband says, “That's three,” and shoots the donkey!
The wife gets so mad and start's cursing at the husband and saying, “That was our only donkey! You were an idiot to shoot it!”
The husband says to his wife, that's ONE!”


Not only does this verse in the Koran foster public acceptance in the Muslim world to use violence against women and children, but the implications of this passage torwards women is truly enormous.

Hopefully from reading the above story, one understands that the above is not the *ideal* form of conduct in a marriage. Needless to say, what the Koran instructs men to do and what that story is making fun of/highlighting is *exactly* the same.

To repeat, there is absolutely no difference between the story and the Koran - both the Koran and that husband in that story instill the threat of violence for all married women...everywhere.

The Koran goes above and beyond mere instructions for women to obey their husbands. The Koran gives husbands some tools in ensuring that wives obey them - namely, that a husband is totally allowed to discipline his wife as if she were a child !

Amazingly, yes, amazingly, none of the Muslim posters here have bothered or dared to consider the implications of such a passage. Their knee jerk shrugging off of a passage which calls for physical violence against women truly speaks volumes.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Yawn.

I guess you can't handle Berrin's points. Was his post too long for you?

However, you are quite right eh - it is only you and FD that have this weird reality distortion field that deliberately misinterprets what others write.

So, apart from Danny Devito, Afghan boys and Muslims beating their wives as acts of piety - do you have other fantasies you'd like to share?

But, let's not get away from the fact that this one verse you are misinterpreting is clear to us:

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).


All your bluster doesn't change the above. But carry on, it is fun to read. ;)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:you don't really have a leg to stand on.


I donot have a leg to stand on that wife beating is ALWAYS wrong? :shock: :shock: :shock:
You seem to be proud defending wife beating with so called smart arguments.

* shaking head while wife beater advocates are high fiving each other for giving arguments that wife beating is a beautiful thing and that it actually shows love to the wife beaten *
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
However, you are quite right eh - it is only you and FD that have this weird reality distortion field that deliberately misinterprets what others write.


Ohh shaf, why are u trying so much to say they are alone? Berrin is talking for himself too! he said in other thread that if women show off their pretty eyes, all men would sigh : be mine tonight etc etc!!

Look at below tree:

Image

This is some unviersity in Iran, Basiji guys announced seeing women eating fruits of the tree would make the to want to sleep with them! So they cut off the poor tree like that!!! (I guess Berrin was one of those Basijis too)

your try to manipulate Quran's statements are just funny! Yes God says in Quran that you can beat ur wife if they were not obedient! Enough said!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok


So Allah allows what you say is not ok?

we are not allowed to beat women in anger.


The Koran says this...where?

3.2.1. change subject.

This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today


Sound logic. Wife beating is endemic in the world - Islam makes it trendy.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out


Right, see the story about the husband, his wife and their mule.

and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen


As long as the threat of violence is there, I would imagine that beating your wife would theoretically be rare too (the wife wouldn't want to be beaten, so she'll be quick to listen to her husband the first time around).

But you're not actually using that as a basis for why this passage in the Koran is good thing, are you?

(I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).


Their wives are more docile than most women. Too bad.

-- Wed May 12, 2010 7:47 pm --

melika969 wrote:
However, you are quite right eh - it is only you and FD that have this weird reality distortion field that deliberately misinterprets what others write.


Ohh shaf, why are u trying so much to say they are alone? Berrin is talking for himself too! he said in other thread that if women show off their pretty eyes, all men would sigh : be mine tonight etc etc!!

Look at below tree:

Image

This is some unviersity in Iran, Basiji guys announced seeing women eating fruits of the tree would make the to want to sleep with them! So they cut off the poor tree like that!!! (I guess Berrin was one of those Basijis too)

your try to manipulate Quran's statements are just funny! Yes God says in Quran that you can beat ur wife if they were not obedient! Enough said!


But..but... the husbands are to use the threat of violence before they actually beat their wives.

Why can't you see the logic in this?
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Eh - as I said, Gods words are quite clear.

The question you didn't answer though eh - what other fantasies do you harbour?

Flying Dutchman wrote:I donot have a leg to stand on that wife beating is ALWAYS wrong?
You seem to be proud defending wife beating with so called smart arguments.


So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women? Hmm. I guess we are all entitled to our logical twists - but I'm struggling to follow that one.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).


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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
The main point is that wife beating is totally acceptable in Islam.

The only twist of logic I see are the ones coming from your keyboard.

That the Koran supposedly only allows wife beating after the husband first castigates his wife, then grounds her for disobeying the husband is beside the point - and really speaks volumes that you don't see the inherent s.exism in the first two instructions to start off with.

The threat of violence is there in a marital relationship. And, I can't imagine that in a society where wife beating is considered the norm just as spanking your children a few decades ago in the United States was, you're going to have individuals who really only beat their wife after the husband first told her to do something twice - as if this 'rule' makes this passage any less backwards.

(and pray tell, what exactly happens if the husband doesn't always follow your interpretation of the Koran?)

The passage on wife beating in the Koran creates an environment where women are not only told to obey their husbands, but if they are disobedient, they will be whacked a few times until they decide to obey their husband again.

But, I guess I'm the one living in a fantasy world where all disagreements will be solved after the first or second dispute - one where the wife's opinion on a matter will ultimately buckle to the eventual realization that if she keeps it up, her husband is going to *beat* her.

Oh, yeah. Why doesn't everyone see the logic in this verse that Muslims do?
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Again, thanks for your quaint interpretation.

Do you really imagine that Muslim men go about beating their wives because you believe the Quran says this is ok?

Weird views you have eh.

You quoted one verse of the Quran, and seem to go off on a tangent.
The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger. This is a crucial point when people accuse Islam of being a religion that condones the violence against women that is endemic in the world today - in all societies.

God gives us only one exceptional case where corporal punishment can be carried out - and lays down rules which mean it is rarely something that can happen (I know of no Muslim who has carried out this injunction - warned their wife, kept away from the marital bed and then finally apply the corporal punishment).


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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 12, 2010
Do you really imagine that Muslim men go about beating their wives because you believe the Quran says this is ok?


It's not about his imaginations. They do it!

I have seen it and I have seen the guy referring to Quran, look up the verse, show it to all and say it is ok!!!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Did the women agree with eh's interpretation?

Do you? Do you think God says it is ok to beat women in this verse which talks about corporal punishment as the last of a series of measures?

As I said, God's words are pretty clear - and I don't know of any Muslim man who beats their wife and uses this verse as a justification. I do know of Muslims who have hit their wives - as I know of others who have done the same - fortunately not too many of them that I know of.

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women?


Yes. :idea: :idea: :idea:
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
Did the women agree with eh's interpretation?

Do you? Do you think God says it is ok to beat women in this verse which talks about corporal punishment as the last of a series of measures?


It's not EH's interpretion. It is what Islam and Tafseer says... I don't consider myself as a musilm anymore, so I don't agree that these senences are from God. Mulsim women do agree with that interpretion. It's not even a complicated verse!! It is soooo simple to comprehend, If ur wife was not obedient, Threaten them, kept them away from bed and beat them!! simple!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women? Hmm. I guess we are all entitled to our logical twists - but I'm struggling to follow that one.


I'll defend your right to think what you like, but I can't say I can follow your logic.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger.


Seemed pretty clear to me.

I guess you are probably using the logic that people who support capital punishment are condoning murder. But for me, wife battery is distinct from what God is describing in this verse.

For me, violence against women is an endemic problem - eg look at the horrific stats Amnesty put out:

Stop Violence Against Women Campaign

Violence against women is a human rights scandal. At least one out of every three women has been beaten, coerced into love, or otherwise abused in her lifetime.

In Europe, domestic violence is the major cause of death and disability for women aged 16 to 44.
In the United States, a woman is raped every 6 minutes; a woman is battered every 15 seconds.
Rape of women is widespread in armed conflicts such as Colombia and Darfur.
Trafficking of women has become a global phenomenon where victims are sexually exploited, forced into labor and subjected to abuse. Murders of women in Guatemala, Russia, India, and other countries often go uninvestigated and unpunished.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/violence-agai ... id=1108417

Its endemic in Muslim societies too - but I reject the premise that this one verse is used to justify wife battery - on the contrary, women are beaten despite this verse. The underlying problem in all societies is reflected in the stats above - and no one blames misinterpreted scriptures for the rapes and battering going on (one every 15 seconds in eh's homeland!).

Cheers,
Shafique

-- Wed May 12, 2010 8:33 pm --

melika969 wrote:
Did the women agree with eh's interpretation?

Do you? Do you think God says it is ok to beat women in this verse which talks about corporal punishment as the last of a series of measures?


It's not EH's interpretion.


I asked quite specifically whether the women agreed with this interpretation of eh's?

The verse is from the Quran - so let's leave aside the fact you don't believe it to be God's words - do you interpret this one verse as saying it is ok to batter your wife?

And, seriously, did the women who were battered accept this interpretation of this one verse?


[/quote]
If ur wife was not obedient, Threaten them, kept them away from bed and beat them!! simple![/quote]

Indeed, it is simple - but did the men who beat their wives do all three? Did they keep away from the bed for a night (at least) - or did they ignore this verse and just hit their wives? If they ignored the verse, then how can you blame the verse?

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
shafique wrote:
shafique wrote:So, when I say God does not condone wife battery - you call that a 'smart argument' in defence of beating women? Hmm. I guess we are all entitled to our logical twists - but I'm struggling to follow that one.


I'll defend your right to think what you like, but I can't say I can follow your logic.

The main point is that God does NOT say that wife battery is ok - we are not allowed to beat women in anger.


Psst...Shafster, you are talking to yourself now. You are replying to and arguing with your own quotes. :lol: :lol: :lol:

And I see you cannot follow your own logic.

Must be plenty of food for a good shrink. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

You might find common grounds with shrink Holdfield:

"The instinct of submission strengthens at times, in the human being so much that a submissive person will enjoy seeing someone overpowering him, over-ruling him and being cruel to him. Such a submissive person bears the consequences of his submission due to the fact that he enjoys the pain. This is a wide spread instinct amongst women, even if they do not realize it. For this very reason, women are well known for bearing more pain than men. A wife, from this type of women, becomes more attracted and admiring of her husband when he beats her. Nothing, on the other hand, will sadden some women, as much as a soft, very kind and very obedient husband who is never upset regardless of being challenged!"



shafique wrote:I guess you are probably using the logic that people who support capital punishment are condoning murder.


Making more a fool of yourself (if possible). No Chubby chap, I am arguing that those that are OK with murder, cannot be against the death penalty.
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
The verse is from the Quran - so let's leave aside the fact you don't believe it to be God's words - do you interpret this one verse as saying it is ok to batter your wife?


Yes of course! It has been said pretty clear.

And, seriously, did the women who were battered accept this interpretation of this one verse?


Yes, when they believe these are words of God, they would believe that some superior power wants it like that and they agree with it.
The verse is so clear that you can not interpret any other thing from it!

Indeed, it is simple - but did the men who beat their wives do all three?


HAHA! So u are saying if men do all three it is ok?

Threating their wife is ok? then if she was not punished,keep her away from bed, if she was too stubborn then beat her!! So nobody should blame the verse! beacuse it is not violent at all!!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 12, 2010
melika969 wrote:
Indeed, it is simple - but did the men who beat their wives do all three?


HAHA! So u are saying if men do all three it is ok?


What I've been saying is that this is what God says in the Quran. One can only resort to corporal punishment after first verbally warning, then abstaining from the marital bed.

I'll therefore ask once again - did the men you say you saw beating their wives follow God's clear commandment in this verse or not?

It is not a complicated question.

If they did not, how can they use this verse to codone beating their wives?


To answer your question - if all the steps are followed, then yes, God allows corporal punishment.


Threating their wife is ok?


God says 'admonish', not threaten. Do you want to re-check the Quran?

then if she was not punished,


Huh? Again, I think you need to check the translation - if she does not reform, then the next step is...

keep her away from bed,


Yes.

Hence my question to you about the Muslims who beat their wives. Did they or did they not follow this Quranic instruction before they beat their wives. If they did not, then aren't they going against Islam and can't use the Quran to condone their actions?

Time to back up your earlier statement Melika.

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 13, 2010
'Once there was a husband and wife who had just bought a new mule. They were walking it down the street when the mule trips over a stone. The husband says, “That's one!”
They walk some more, when the mule trips over a stone again and the husband says, “That's two!”
Then the mule trips over a stone again. The husband says, “That's three,” and shoots the donkey!
The wife gets so mad and start's cursing at the husband and saying, “That was our only donkey! You were an idiot to shoot it!”
The husband says to his wife, that's ONE!”


Melika, you just don't have the foresight as shafique does to see the beauty in this verse.

Ultimately, the verse is about women knowing their role.

I mean, how else is one to understand a passage where the onus is on the wife to obey her husband...or else?
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 13, 2010
melika969 wrote:
Do you really imagine that Muslim men go about beating their wives because you believe the Quran says this is ok?


It's not about his imaginations. They do it!

I have seen it and I have seen the guy referring to Quran, look up the verse, show it to all and say it is ok!!!



So, c'mon Melika - spill the details.

You say you have +seen+ 'Muslim men' who 'go about beating their wives because' of this Quranic verse.

Let me break down my questions to some specifics:
1. Was it more than the 'one guy' you referred to??
2. Did he a. Admonish, b. abstain from the marital bed, as God says?
3. How long did he abstain from the bed for?
4. What was the alleged crime?
5. Describe the beating you saw, or the beating that the woman said she received (was it a smack round the head, a punch, kick or what)


The only reason I'd like some detail is that this will be the first time I would have come across someone who applied all the punishments in this Quranic verse.

Let me know if the questions are unclear.

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 13, 2010
As much as I m not interested in participating in this sick qestion and answers of yours, but these are ur answers:

1. Was it more than the 'one guy' you referred to??

Yes.

2. Did he a. Admonish, b. abstain from the marital bed, as God says?

I don't know. I m not aware of their personal life and their bed!!!! (Sick minds would seek into other's bed!)


3. How long did he abstain from the bed for?

Refer to above anser pls!

4. What was the alleged crime?

Manye things could be! They (men) don't like the food, the women did not respect her in lwas as much as the guys wants... as they are many reasons I can not provide them all foe a sick mind! actually remembering this kind of stuff is not pleasant for me too!


5. Describe the beating you saw, or the beating that the woman said she received (was it a smack round the head, a punch, kick or what)


Again another sick sick sick question from a mulsim mind of yours! it could be kick, hitting by belt, punch etc etc.


It does not matter if guy do all the three steps or not! beacuse all three of them are vilolent, disgusting and against humanity!! how come your God does not let women to punish their husbands like that?


So, c'mon Melika - spill the details.


Sicko!!!
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 13, 2010
I agree they are sick questions - but you said you 'saw' this happen.

The lack of details in your 'answers' speak volumes.

Either the men who you say beat their wives and used this verse as an excuse followed what God says in the verse or they did not. As you can't tell us whether they kept away from their wives or even why or how they beat their wives, I really can't see how you can claim these men were acting according to God's instructions in this one verse.

As you say, 'it could be' - let me use the same phrase: 'it could be' that these guys (who you don't know how they beat, or whether they warned, abstained from s.ex etc) were just like the wife beaters in the US (one every 15 seconds) who don't need an excuse to beat their wives.


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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 13, 2010
If some guys beat their wives in US, does not justify that ur God say it formally in his book, "u can beat ur wives in 3 steps"

Even if nobody, no muslim men does it ( I know they do, lots of them has sick minds!) this verse is a shame!
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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 13, 2010
I totally agree Melika with your premise. There is no excuse at all for wife battery.

My argument is that God does not allow Muslims to batter their wives, and this one verse merely states that corporal punishment is allowed only after 1. admonishment and 2. abstaining from s.ex.

We can certainly have a debate over whether corporal and capital punishment are valid punishments, however, above you seem to be saying you 'saw' men who beat their wives use this verse as an excuse. (Perhaps you can clarify what exactly you 'saw' - as you weren't too clear on this point).


I repeat my point - this verse does not say that Muslim men have the right to batter their wives. I reject the premise that the corporal punishment allowed constitutes wife battery or wife beating. I repeat that I have yet to come across ONE Muslim man who has applied this verse. I was intrigued therefore to read that perhaps you had come across such a man - but alas, all mouth no trousers. :(

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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 13, 2010
states that corporal punishment is allowed only after 1. admonishment and 2. abstaining from s.ex.


This permission is anti women, sick, belongs to stone age!


(Perhaps you can clarify what exactly you 'saw' - as you weren't too clear on this point).


It was not just once I saw this kind of things, I have given u enought information before, U might need to read that again. It s not one man hitting their women, so I can not explain all those sick scenes for you. stick ,punch , kick... anything it was, does not differ. this verse is a shame!

Again, why ur God did not give such authority to women?

I reject the premise that the corporal punishment allowed constitutes wife battery or wife beating.


U need to read the verse again! In 3 steps it allows beating ur wife!

I repeat that I have yet to come across ONE Muslim man who has applied this verse.


Maybe you don't know much muslim men in msulim country with Islamic rules. Maybe in countries u have been, beating wife was LEGALLY wrong, so they can't do it!
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 13, 2010
You'll have to ask God why men and women are different.

I've just been making the point that Islam does not condone wife battery - and this one verse about corporal punishment can't be used as an excuse to beat your wife. If it could, then surely we'll have some examples where it has been used as such.

So far, it is only been used as an excuse in the imaginings of our American and Dutch friends ;). But you appeared to ride to their rescue with a 'sighting' of a Muslim who did beat their wife and use this verse. But alas, this now seems to be just hot air.

I repeat, though, I agree totally that wife beating is totally abhorent and condemn all instances of this - whether it is the American lady who is beaten every 15 seconds or the poor Muslim women suffering honor killings or just misogynistic domestic violence.

You'll forgive me though for pointing out that this one verse of the Quran does not give Muslim men the green light to batter their wives.

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Re: Wife beating in the Koran - split from Politics forum Posted May 13, 2010
The one thing I noticed that "speaks volumes" is that shafique is more interested in telling other people that he's right than in actual dialogue.

One thing I noticed that all fundamentalists/fanatics have in common is that they are always right and everyone else is wrong.

In shafique's case, I think he's more interested in writing long, drab posts than actually have any sort of discussion. It reminds me of numerous threads I've had discussions with him before where he was totally wrong on a subject but would still go on and write a chapter about it.

He seems absolutely deluded with himself.
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Re: Wife Beating In The Koran - Split From Politics Forum Posted May 13, 2010
Melika said she witnessed some Muslim men justifying wife beating - how is my asking for more details not engaging in a discussion?

The fact that you have weird interpretation of one Quranic verse is not denied by myself, I've just pointed out what God is actually saying - and making the emphatic point that the verse is not condoning wife battery.

The fact that I don't know anyone who has ever used this verse to justify wife beating is just that, a fact. Your interpretation of the verse is verifiable - we should be able to find some Muslim men who agree with you, and have acted on this verse.

I thought that Melika had some evidence of this, but alas it appears she has picked up some of your bad habits.

But hey - why let facts get in the way of a view of Islam that you probably picked up at Bible Camp?

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