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Berrin, for every loony rabbi with a weird ruling I can give five or six loon Egyptian rulings.

Please do give, so that we can discuss and decide all together..But we’ve got to make sure that we don’t stay moderate muslim despite quranic teachings. (For devout Muslims, western description of moderate muslim means, someone who interprets Islamic teachings according to their own whims and wishes, or better still abandoning/following what they like. This is typical attitude of a secular muslim..

I mean the Christians have their own nutters - such as Bob Spencer and the Quran burning Pastor, we have our 'breast feeding' fatwa issuing Imams.

Hmm breastfeeding..
002.233- And the mothers should suckle their children for two whole years for him who desires to make complete the time of suckling; and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity; neither shall a mother be made to suffer harm on account of her child, nor a father on account of his child, and a similar duty (devolves) on the (father's) heir, but if both desire weaning by mutual consent and counsel, there is no blame on them, and if you wish to engage a wet-nurse for your children, there is no blame on you so long as you pay what you promised for according to usage; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah and know that Allah sees what you do. (Al-baqara)

Who is nutter? Imam?

The matter of fact is that Shafique, Egypt is a secular state, as all muslim secular states go through, more and more muslims, year by year abandoning Islamic way of life and teachings in order to adapt themselves to secular way of thinking and living.unfortunately…
i.e in the case of breast feeding…More and more mothers opt for bottle feeding for many selfish reasons…esthetics, burden, employment, work, money for comfort, busy life etc. etc..

We have many scientific evidences that breast feeding is the best when it comes to protection (immunity)and nutrition of baby as well as that spiritual bond and development between mother and the baby..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... touch.html

I object to the way secular moms treat their babies, I can only praise the imams..

It is totally legitimate to make fun of these funny guys, quite another to mock the religion brought by Jesus, Moses (however corrupted you may think they have become).
But that is by-the-by - God tells us in the Quran how to discuss matters of faith.

Making fun of others for a purpose is one thing, being in the right position to say bluntly what you think is another thing.(sorry that I wasn't careful for the tone)
Don’t please underestimate what I know of quran, cause I too read what you are writing, and don’t also please feel obliged to take side between contributors in an effort to camouflage what you have within you in the mean time. Sorry but that’s the way how I feel it…

Berrin - I'm not questioning your knowledge or faith, just agreeing with DD that mocking another religion does not agree with our understanding of the teachings of Islam. You may have mocked unintentionally, but your subsequent justifications don't seem to imply this.

We can agree to disagree on this point.

As for the breast-feeding fatwa - this was what I was referring to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6681511.stm

Cheers,
Shafique

You may have mocked unintentionally, but your subsequent justifications don't seem to imply this.

Please show me what it is that I don't see it myself..

As for the breast-feeding fatwa - this was what I was referring to:

Ooo come on shafique, that bbc article is such a laughter, don't you see his hidden satirizing..I agree with that imam, women should feed men to remind them their male responsibilities ordained by God.lol..
Unfortunetly you can only get so sarcastic, working and living under secular administration, simpl cause state has no methed of ruling on human responsibilites and manners..he is clearly making fun of the current social problems/situation in Egypt..
Sometimes articles like this that draw the attention of public and make people to ponder on the social ills of the society..Not that what he say will be a fatwah to be implemented..He know it jolly well..

-His fatwa stated the act would make the man symbolically related to the woman and preclude any sexual relations.
-According to Islamic tradition, or Hadith, breast-feeding establishes a degree of maternal relation, even if a woman nurses a child who is not biologically hers.
He said that if a woman fed a male colleague "directly from her breast" at least five times they would establish a family bond and thus be allowed to be alone together at work.
"Breast feeding an adult puts an end to the problem of the private meeting, and does not ban marriage," he ruled.

I understand what he means Shafique, I doo..

I've seen people like you before. Would rather go to the end of the world to justify themselves rather than admit they were wrong.

Sigh - Berrin, let's agree to disagree.

I have much desire to debate the breast feeding fatwa as to debate the rights and wrongs of the original article. That was my whole point - both are not to be taken seriously (and trust me, there are more of these loony fatwas out there!)

Cheers,
Shafique

I've seen people like you before. Would rather go to the end of the world to justify themselves rather than admit they were wrong.

I know that you have a long lasting grudge on me from previous posts,,you must be waiting for any moment of mine to catch and attack (be aware Shafique) me on personal level rather than make a constructive communication...Otherwise you wouldn't wait for Shafique but you yourselves show me what bit of my current posts were unacceptable..

-- Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:58 pm --

I have much desire to debate the breast feeding fatwa

It's not a fatwa it's a teaser..Those lashes that the jewish boy received was also a symbolic teaser..Wasn't meant to be, individuals were just actors playing an act..you just can't find a rational explanation when you read the article fully other than just seeing the satire..

Fair enough Berrin, you win.

Cheers,
Shafique

Berrin said, "I object to the way secular moms treat their babies, I can only praise the imams.."

And how exactly do secular moms treat their babies that is so bad?

What is the difference between babies breastfed for two weeks, six months, one year or two years? I certainly can't pick out the kids who were breastfed longer that others, or even the ones who were formula fed.

In the time when the Quran was written, breastfeeding children until 2 yrs was practical and definitely a health benefit. In this day in age, especially in developed countries, there is no huge benefit to breastfeeding for extended periods of time.

And how exactly do secular moms treat their babies that is so bad?

i.e. esthetics. take mums who prefer to stay skinny while pregnant and after so that they still look attractive both at home and outside i.e work. Those kind of mums have almost no milk and dry very quickly due to no will power..
Also some ladies get very busy life during the day that cannot tolerate to stay awake at night for breastfeeding, instead, employ the nurse to bottlefeed etc
I mean when we start to think about the role of modern woman in secular societies, we can find many reasons to explain maternal negligence over the care of newborns (willingly or unwillingly) …This is why many developed nations now are opting to increase paid maternity leave after birth by law..i.e. up to 3 years..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave

What is the difference between babies breastfed for two weeks, six months, one year or two years? I certainly can't pick out the kids who were breastfed longer that others, or even the ones who were formula fed.

I don’t know, but I don’t think we have such advanced scientific methods to differentiate changes between 3 months and 2 years of breastfeeding...
However they continually come out with new findings in support of breastfeeding….
http://www.promom.org/101/

Mind you tough doctors also advice parents to keep at least two years between two pregnancies and don’t advice cow milk for babies until 1 years of age..
I sort of think breastfeeding works two ways, both for mother and baby..
For the baby, the first two years of breastfeeding must be more like a transition time/period, preparing still underdeveloped body to adapt outside nature from what it was in the womb..(This must be via both psychological building (sense of belonging) and by preparing the organs to take foods that normally adults eat.

For the mother, breastfeeding must be triggering many hormones to function in many ways for developing the milk and the ratio for its nutritional value, as well to initiate quick recover from physical loss and emotional overwhelm left from pregnancy and giving birth- helping the mother to stay away from depression and bond to the baby afterbirth...

There must me some direct wisdom in breastfeeding cause as you say before modern times we had at least basic cow and goats milk and in modern times we have formulas as substitute but yet we still don’t see woman evolving to stop producing breast milk and yet God in quran offers still nothing better or equivalent other than another nursing moms milk…

Berrin said, "i.e. esthetics. take mums who prefer to stay skinny while pregnant and after so that they still look attractive both at home and outside i.e work. Those kind of mums have almost no milk and dry very quickly due to no will power..
Also some ladies get very busy life during the day that cannot tolerate to stay awake at night for breastfeeding, instead, employ the nurse to bottlefeed etc
I mean when we start to think about the role of modern woman in secular societies, we can find many reasons to explain maternal negligence over the care of newborns (willingly or unwillingly) …This is why many developed nations now are opting to increase paid maternity leave after birth by law..i.e. up to 3 years.."

More ridiculous comments. What does anything have to do with being secular or religious, particularly Muslim? Women mother in different ways and make different feeding and parenting choices based on many factors. There cannot be a one size fits all for proper mothering. Underlying all of your comments is basic mother-judging, which is unfair. I don't know a single mother, except ones with mental problems, addiction problems etc. who wouldn't do anything to make sure their babies are healthy and happy every day. To make it seem like secular mothers are obsessed with their looks, their own schedules and willingly neglect their children, as opposed to superior Muslim mothers is just plain infuriating.

There are a lot of shoddy "research" studies out there, and even shoddier journalistic interpretations of research. Maybe you think that breastfeeding is the be all and end all, but science and life experience just doesn't back that up. Yes, breast milk and breastfeeding are wonderful, and it is the best food for infants, but it isn't right to judge other mothers on how they breastfeed or don't. I breastfed my first until 21 months and am still breastfeeding my second at 15 months, the boys sleep in our bed until they are about 18 months and are shifted to their own beds in their own room. I in no way feel superior to other mothers about that. (And I'm secular! *gasp* and thin! *double gasp* and have a helper! *triple gasp*)

Berrin, a serious question -are you married and do you have children?

If you are married, ask your wife to read your post above and let us know her comments. If you're not married, then I'd advise you re-read your posts and at least apologise to kanelli for your tone and lack of humility - you are not doing your point of view any favours, and you are not putting your point across very well.

A word of advice, think very carefully before pronouncing on aspects that you've only just read about and haven't got personal experience when faced with those who know the subject in greater detail.

Cheers,
Shafique

More ridiculous comments.

Show me which?
Get over your prejudgment Miss/es..Your world view and thoughts can be limited to your own experience, but don't forget everyone else too has their own experience in this life ..There are over 6 billion living in this world..I don't think you can standardise everyone' wills and actions to match yours or your assumption..

What does anything have to do with being secular or religious, particularly Muslim?

Nothing.. it's just that the more devout muslim or any other group of religious person you are, the better the chances that you'll devote yourself to the way of God..You just become more conscious of your duties towards everyone and the creator..But you can't deny how modern life transforms women to live and act more like a man, which I find to be huge burden on ladies shoulders, don't you think?
Supermoms!?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1468/

There cannot be a one size fits all for proper mothering

Correct..
no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity; neither shall a mother be made to suffer harm on account of her child, nor a father on account of his child, and a similar duty (devolves) on the (father's) heir, but if both desire weaning by mutual consent and counsel, there is no blame on them, and if you wish to engage a wet-nurse for your children, there is no blame on you so long as you pay what you promised for according to usage;

Underlying all of your comments is basic mother-judging, which is unfair. I don't know a single mother, except ones with mental problems, addiction problems etc. who wouldn't do anything to make sure their babies are healthy and happy every day.

Really? What about teenage mothers? Most of the time due to its tragedy/burden they have to drop their infants for adoption. You probably have no idea of mothers who are serial killers of infants, do you?..
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66S22Z20100729
http://www.canadiancrc.com/Infanticide- ... abies.aspx
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... alone.html

To make it seem like secular mothers are obsessed with their looks, their own schedules and willingly neglect their children, as opposed to superior Muslim mothers is just plain infuriating.

I am not praising muslim mothers either, they too are found in similar position..,
http://muslimahmediawatch.org/2009/01/d ... hida-dati/

It doesn't have to be just the looks, it can be due to any obsession..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... nline-game

There are a lot of shoddy "research" studies out there, and even shoddier journalistic interpretations of research. Maybe you think that breastfeeding is the be all and end all, but science and life experience just doesn't back that up.

Could be..But there are some good studies too..
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cg ... ;115/2/496
The vast majority of mothers can and should breastfeed, just as the vast majority of infants can and should be breastfed," and "Only under exceptional circumstances can a mother's milk be considered unsuitable for her infant..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_formula

Yes, breast milk and breastfeeding are wonderful, and it is the best food for infants, but it isn't right to judge other mothers on how they breastfeed or don't.

I don't judge mothers, I make statements that can be supported by evidences in everdays life ..having read my post and links within, you must be able to make up your own mind now..

I breastfed my first until 21 months and am still breastfeeding my second at 15 months, the boys sleep in our bed until they are about 18 months and are shifted to their own beds in their own room.

Excellent..Congratulations..

I in no way feel superior to other mothers about that.

This doesn't make you superior to another "woman" or "mom" but only makes you more thoughtful,sensitive and responsible mother compared to some others who prefer bottlefeeding no matter what..

Gak, more crap.

You ARE saying that what I have been doing does make me superior to other mothers, and I disagree. Even though I breastfeed, how do you know how I treat my kids in the day. Do I care for them well, am I sensitive and responsible? You don't have a clue.

You had better stop now, because you're digging yourself deeper into the hole.

Gak, more crap.

I know that sometimes it becomes hard to be in confrontation when truth has been evidenced..
Still tough, just as you have the right to your own opinion, I have the right to my own opinion..

Even though I breastfeed, how do you know how I treat my kids in the day.Do I care for them well, am I sensitive and responsible? You don't have a clue.You don't have a clue.

dear ohh dear...Your initial argument was based on breastfeeding..Now we must have sorted out this issue and moved on to treatment of kids?! Great tell me more about it... so that I can finally conclude my opinion about you? You know you're a joke Miss/es..

You had better stop now, because you're digging yourself deeper into the hole.

I am not ashamed of myself, neither you or anybody else, and you are more than welcome to help me to further to dig myself into the hole, if you can Miss'es...

^that's exactly how I feel!

Me too!

DD, you are awesome