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[shafique]

So you agree with my comment to berrin regarding the Koran?

Berrin, if every dispute between a husband and a wife ends with the husband being right (or else), how exactly would that be considered a functional marriage?

I actually said I did above - please actually try and read what I post - I said:

It wouldn't - you are right, eh.

I've been pretty clear where I stand on your interpretation of 4.34 in terms of wife beating - again re-read the numerous posts above on it.



So... without wasting more time, will you (or will you not) answer the simple questions that I posed:

[Ok - I understand you consider the Quran to be misogynistic. For the purposes of this question, I agree that 4.34 says the same thing as Ephesians in relation to women being told to be subservient to men.

Does your intpretation of 4.34 mean you consider the Quran is not the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

If so, why does this logic not apply to the Bible?

If the questions are still unclear, let me know and I'll try to simplify even further.

[event horizon]

You're not the only one repeating yourself.

I explained my position clearly in my last post or so:

Let me know if it's 'unKoranic' for a Muslim husband to ground or eventually slap his wife if she doesn't do the dishes, as he requests.

[shafique]

Yes, it is unislamic for a husband to eventually slap his wife for not doing the dishes as he requests.

(It would also be a bit stupid of the man for him to banish his wife, not sleep with her for a few days and then tell her that he is now going to slap her because she doesn't do the dishes - but hey, when you come across such a stupid Muslim man, let me know and we'll both tell him how unIslamic his actions were - go on, find me one that has done this, I dare you. All Mouth, No Trousers - perchance?).

So, now how about the questions I posed?

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

Yes, it is unislamic for a husband to eventually slap his wife for not doing the dishes as he requests.

Really? To me, it sounds completely Islamic (based on what the Koran says) for a husband to ground then slap his wife around if she does not wash the dishes.

Care to support your argument from the Koran, perchance?

[shafique]

It's only fair that you now answer my questions. I'll happily return to this question and explain to you why it is unIslamic (and actually stupid and never actually happens) for a man to impose the punishment in 4.34 for the 'crime' of 'not doing dishes'. (But if you think about it, you'll get to the answer - and I won't be referring to anything outside the Quran for this argument either).

So, let me repeat the questions for you..

I understand you consider the Quran to be misogynistic. For the purposes of this question, I agree that 4.34 says the same thing as Ephesians in relation to women being told to be subservient to men.

Does your intpretation of 4.34 mean you consider the Quran is not the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

If so, why does this logic not apply to the Bible?

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

Yes, I'm definitely against the passage in the Koran which instructs husbands to treat their wives like children - disobedient wives may be beaten or grounded if they don't obey their husbands.

Seems pretty backwards to me. No question about it.

But hey, maybe I'm biased. Who do you think most members who commented in this thread believed was grasping at straws the most to defend their viewpoint - you, or me?

[shafique]

Thanks for sharing your views. I've answered your question and will happily give you the clarifications you request, after you've answered my straightforward questions:

I understand you consider the Quran to be misogynistic. For the purposes of this question, I agree that 4.34 says the same thing as Ephesians in relation to women being told to be subservient to men.

Does your intpretation of 4.34 mean you consider the Quran is not the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

If so, why does this logic not apply to the Bible?

Patiently waiting now.

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

The Bible doesn't say to beat your wife.

I thought that was pretty simple.

[shafique]

Berrin, if every dispute between a husband and a wife ends with the husband being right (or else), how exactly would that be considered a functional marriage?

It wouldn't - you are right, eh.

But let me clarify with you - do you think that any teaching that says a man is the head of a family and that woman needs to submit to his authority is not be a teaching you would consider being from God, and should be ignored?


I've heard many Christians compare marriage to a ship which needs a captain, or a company which has a president - but there are many who say that this is old fashioned and out dated. A woman should be able to do what she wants in a relationship and shouldn't submit to her husband in all disputes. (I make the point, because on this particular aspect, the Quran says pretty much what the Bible says in a number of clear verses - men are given authority over women eg,

Ephesians:
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife."
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

And the verse we are discussing says 'Good women are obedient' (4.34)

What's your opinion eh?

..

[event horizon]

Spamming this thread won't get you anywhere. Your question has been answered numerous times - Muslims should not follow the Koran where it allows for husbands to beat or ground their disobedient wives.

To tell you whether or not allah really revealed that passage is a bit of a dumb question.

Rather, it is irrelevant if allah revealed the misogynist passages in the Koran. Even if she did, these verses should still not be followed and allah is not worthy of worship.

[shafique]

So, you won't answer the question whether you think the Quran is NOT the word of God because it contains misogynistic verses?

Speaks volumes that you think this question is 'spam'.

You really don't have the courage of your convictions - do you eh.


For me, it shows that your arguments rely on hypocrisy - as you argue that the Bible's openly misogynistic verses need to be 'interpreted' but that only your interpretation of the Quranic verse 4.34 can apply.

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

Err, your logic would have to make sense, first of all.

Just because something is racist or misogynist or homophobic doesn't mean that it's not from a deity.

That isn't a 'rule' that I am aware. (But if it is, care to share it for the rest of us???)

I thought that was pretty obvious.

[shafique]

Thanks - so you think God's words can be homophobic and anti-women.

As a believing Christian you have to take this view.

Therefore, how is criticising the Quran for saying 'Good women are obedient' not hypocritical when the Bible says

Ephesians:
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife."
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Do you agree that if you don't criticise the Bible for this verse you will be hypocritical if you criticise the Quran for saying women should be obedient?

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

Man, you're really delusional.

You obviously didn't understand what I actually said in my last post.

Go back and re-read what I wrote rather than responding for the sake of responding.

[shafique]

Back to name calling rather than addressing the points raised? Hmm.

Is there a flaw in my logic? You say God's words can contain homophobic and misogynistic writings - the Bible says women should be subservient - why would you NOT be hypocritical if you criticise the Quran for saying good women should be obedient?

Perhaps I am delusional for thinking you may follow through on some of your arguments - this is your thread, after all?

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

What did I tell you, little man, about posting for the sake of posting?

You're now going off on two separate arguments - claiming that Allah does not exist if a passage in the Koran is misogynist (that one confused me). Hey, why don't you do me the favor of explaining that to me.

And secondly, asking whether I"m hypocritical for condemning wife beating in the Koran because the Bible does not allow husbands to beat their wives.

I have to say, I'm a bit confused with regards to both arguments. I don't think I'm hypocritical for condemning the Koran because it advocates domestic abuse, which is what I have stated from the beginning of this thread (refer to thread title if you're still unsure of what I am condemning).

And, as already explained, I can't tell you whether or not allah really exists based on a passage that is misogynist because it allows husbands to beat their wives. That really isn't a hard explanation to grasp, but so far, you've failed miserably at it.

What I did say, is that the s.exist, homophobic, reactionary, militant and hateful passages in the Koran should be ignored. But please, explain to me how ignoring the backwards passages in the Koran is tantamount to proof that allah does not exist.

As I mentioned up above, such an argument seems kind of...dumb.

Hopefully someone more patient than I am can explain to you what you're not understanding because of basic reading comprehension problems.

[shafique]

Sorry, did you answer my question in your post above?

Back to name calling rather than addressing the points raised? Hmm.

Is there a flaw in my logic? You say God's words can contain homophobic and misogynistic writings - the Bible says women should be subservient - why would you NOT be hypocritical if you criticise the Quran for saying good women should be obedient?

I asked you to clarify whether YOU believed the presence of misogynistic verses meant that the Quran was not from God. You've clarified that this was NOT your argument.

Now we have established that the presence of misogynistic verses is not a criterion YOU would use to dismiss a book as being 'not from God', we are left with the question whether you are criticising the Quran for saying 'Good women are obedient' or not.

If you are, then why would this not be hypocritical, given that the Bible says the same thing?

(We've established that we have a fundamental disagreement over whether the Quran condones wife beating, this specific line of questioning is over your criticism of 4.34 saying women should obey men)

Cheers,
Shafique

[event horizon]

Please stop posting on my thread.

You're spamming it beyond belief.

Maybe berrin can show up or something. I've never encountered a bigger air-head than you.

[shafique]

What's the matter eh - I thought you wanted to discuss your views?

Now you have clarified that we shouldn't reject the Bible for containing anti-gay and anti-women verses, I am asking you whether or not it would be hypocritical to criticise the Quran for saying 'good women are obedient'.

Perhaps you don't actually have an issue with the Quran saying 'Good women are obedient' - because it agrees with Ephesians? If so, then at least we can agree on this point.


Calling me names doesn't answer the question.

Cheers,
Shafique