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Up until now, you've produced the selective quote from the 10 year old survey and a journalist saying:

every one of the handful of East Jerusalem Arabs I spoke with in the last two weeks..

'the handful'.

Now, I linked to B'tselem's page on East Jerusalem. I presume you can't dispute their statement of fact:

Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.

East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem.

So, it comes down a matter of law, doesn't it?

I invited you to join in with those who wish for peace and not remain with those afraid of the 'peace offensive'. I guess the invitation fell on deaf ears.

Cheers,
Shafique

The best way to find out is a referendum for East-Jerusalemites. But suggesting that, will make people foam again.

Why isn't the best way for Israel to obey the law?

Cheers,
Shafique

East-Jerusalem doesn't belong to anybody according to international law.

Fadal Tahabub from the PNC specified that 70 percent of East-Jerusalemites prefer Israeli sovereignty.

Or as an East-Jerusalemite puts it:

The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us

East Jersualem has been illegally annexed by Israel. I'm not sure how you can spin this fact.

Why ignore what B'tselem highlights?:

Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.

East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem.

Could it be you condone the racist and illegal Israeli actions? 'flagrantly breaches' the law - indeed!

The Israelis are like theives who wish to keep on to their loot - you're trying to excuse this theft, which even the US does not recognise (which says a lot!).

Anyway, this thread is actually about the Peace Process which is resuming - we'll see whether Netanyahu can deliver or not. I hope he can, but the odds are that the Israelis aren't really interested in peace and will continue to build up their colonies to derail the peace process - but let us see.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Anyway, this thread is actually about the Peace Process which is resuming

Yes, and the opinions of ordinary people concerned should be considered. Their wishes should not be dictated by arrogant ivory tower arm-chair observers.

Fortunately, what you or I think about international law and Israel's crimes doesn't really matter - which is a good thing all round.

Funny how citing facts can be viewed as arrogant, I could label the misuse of selective quotes and ignoring of crimes against humanity and international law, but this time I won't.

Cheers,
Shafique

well the matter of fact is that unless America starts to treat Israel like a "normal" state and sever the umbilical cord, they will never start constructive peace negotiations with palestinians!. and America will only cut it's umbilical cord with israel when it stops it's imperial war on islam.. "Islam and democracy" in islamic nations are still accepted as national treat to American security. Unless Americans get rid of this notion from their national security documents, constructive peace talks in ME will never resume and the whole of ME will continue to stay strained and tense..

As American officials privately acknowledge, sooner or later Israel (or someone) will have to talk to Hamas. From French Algeria through South Africa to the Provisional I.R.A., the story repeats itself: the dominant power denies the legitimacy of the “terrorists,” thereby strengthening their hand; then it secretly negotiates with them; finally, it concedes power, independence or a place at the table. Israel will negotiate with Hamas: the only question is why not now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/opini ... ted=1&_r=1

As stated before their seems to be a real fear for listening to the wishes of the Arabs involved. It was a general remark that perhaps people should listen to the East-Jerusalemites themselves and that dictating their desires is arrogant. Obviously some posters felt spoken to. It is what East Jerusamelites themselves are protesting against.

As for Hamas. Israel should negotiate with one representative of the Palestinians. Since Palestinian elections are of the past, nobody knows who that is. Hamas also opposes the recenty announced peace talks.

FD, you really must stop with the smoke and mirrors - no one listens to these Israeli spin stories any more, especially Israelis!

You seem to be arguing that the criminal should get to choose what the definition of crime is (East Jerusalem's illegal annexation) or which laws the criminal should be subject to.

Just because you found one 10 year old survey and a 'handful' of second-hand testimonies does not mean that the world is ignoring the poor East Jerusalem residents living under the illegal annexation!

You're transparently trying to align yourself with the Israelis who want to keep East Jerusalem in Israel - but the problem is that the annexation is illegal and the fair solution will be for the Israelis to keep West Jerusalem and let the Palestinians have East Jerusalem as their capital. Zionists wish to confuse the issue.. but have failed spectacularly.

The fact you can't bring yourself to comment/admit or even acknowledge what B'tselem highlights about East Jerusalem speaks volumes.

Let me repeat what I quoted:

Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.

East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem.

Why do you ignore these facts and fixate on a fantasy instead?

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Just because you found one 10 year old survey and a 'handful' of second-hand testimonies does not mean that the world is ignoring the poor East Jerusalem residents living under the illegal annexation!

What is ignored is what East-Jerusalmites themselves want (instead of what 'the world' wants what the East Jerusalemites want), a fact that seems to be very uncomfortable. It was not my initiative to check what they want. But when proposing to ask East Jerusalemites and than ignoring what they want because the results are unexpected, well that was to be expected. If any more recent polls are available, please share.

shafique wrote:You're transparently trying to align yourself with the Israelis who want to keep East Jerusalem in Israel!

Not sure why my opinion or alignments matter, but I couldnt care less whether East Jerusalem will be part of a possible future Pali state or Israel. But it seems the Arab East-Jerusalemites want to be included in Israel.

shafique wrote:The fact you can't bring yourself to comment/admit or even acknowledge what B'tselem highlights about East Jerusalem speaks volumes.!

The fact that the same quote has to be repeated again and again speaks actually volumes. To safe some copy paste work:

shafique wrote:Let me repeat what I quoted:

Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.

East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem.

Still with the smoke and mirrors? Why do you refuse acknowledge that Israel has broken the law?

BTW - what other criminals/crimes do you support?

No one here is saying that the rights of the East Jerusalem residents should be ignored - in fact, the facts on the ground show that the vast majority of East Jersualem residents who were not Jewish refused to take up Israeli citizenship when it was offered.

As B'tselem points out, the Israelis are in violation of International law (not least made clear in UN resolution 478) and are practicing racist discrimination in Jerusalem. It's a shame you just can't come out and acknowledge that you support Israel keeping hold of East Jerusalem despite these crimes.

At least have the courage of your views and admit that you don't agree with International law.


What is interesting, is that this is probably one of the points that the Israelis will use to sabotage the peace process - a stubborn insistence on breaking the law and keeping East Jerusalem.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Still with the smoke and mirrors? Why do you refuse acknowledge that Israel has broken the law?

projections, projections...

shafique wrote:BTW - what other criminals/crimes do you support?

At least have the courage of your views and admit that you don't agree with International law.

Allrighty, the personal card again.

shafique wrote:No one here is saying that the rights of the East Jerusalem residents should be ignored - in fact, the facts on the ground show that the vast majority of East Jersualem residents who were not Jewish refused to take up Israeli citizenship when it was offered.

That is an interesting point. When there was a real chance during previous peace initiatives that East Jerusalem would fall under Palestinian jurisdiction. Arabs ran en masse to get Israeli citizenship. After Husseini threatened with the severe punishments (probably death) for that, applications became less...

shafique wrote:It's a shame you just can't come out and acknowledge that you support Israel keeping hold of East Jerusalem despite these crimes.

Projections...

shafique wrote:At least have the courage of your views and admit that you don't agree with International law.

The personal card again.

shafique wrote:Let me repeat what I quoted:

Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.

East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem.

So, you don't have the courage of your convictions.

Loons are pretty shallow - quick to accuse others if they condone crimes, but have when Israel's crimes and injustices are pointed out, suddenly it is everyone else's fault.

You brought up East Jerusalem, I merely invited you to join in with the Israelis who really do care about the plight of the residents facing discrimination.

But alas, Israel breaking the law is not something you have been able to spin.

I trust that Netanyahu won't be as evasive.

cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:So, you don't have the courage of your convictions.

Again the personal card.

shafique wrote:You brought up East Jerusalem

shafique wrote:Let me repeat what I quoted:

Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.

East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem.