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Al Shafique, this is for you and your brothers, this mooslim assassin got "awarded" 34 years in a American prison for a honor killing, looks like your sick sharial law will take effect in the US when pigs grow wings and fly.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/15/can- ... n-america/

herve - what's the matter 'mon petit pois'? Not a happy chappy these days?

Let's see if you can see beyond your Islamophobia to read some facts:

'Tradition, not religion'

None of the world's major religions condone honour-related crimes.

But perpetrators have sometimes tried to justify their actions on religious grounds.

"Honour crime happens across the board in the Asian community," says Ram Gidoomal of the South Asian Development Partnership.

"People try to blame Muslims, Hindus or Sikhs but it tends to happen in families where there are the strongest ties and expectations. It's a very strong cultural issue."

Leaders of the world's faiths have also strongly denounced a connection between religion and honour killings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/honourcrime ... ur_1.shtml

If you have calmed down, perhaps you can enlighten us as to how many of the homicides in the USA are carried out by a. Muslims and b. Muslim honor killings. Is it less than 0.5% ?

(Oh, and just in case eh is confused - Islam does not condone honour killings, neither do I. All those who kill their kids for this 'crime' should indeed be at least locked up!)

Cheers,
Shafique

Al Shafique, like your brothers, you say one thing but think the opposite, you lie to pretend to be civilized, but you are just like the other mooslems. None of them condone honor killing, until they do it, and then they call it something else. it is called hyposcrisy.
and how do you call this found in your book, if it is not honor killing? with such reading your book is nothing but a mind infestation

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

That's horrific! No wonder Muslims are mixed up after having that load of crap drummed into them from an early age. God help us all.

Is it phobe reunion day weekend already ?

^I knew it was futile to post facts - but hey, I'm always optimistic that the phobes may one day actually get over their hatred. [sigh]

Cheers,
Shafique

the Quran- 4:15 above looks like a fact Shafique, an appalling one you should be ashame of. Are you dismissing your own readings when they hit you in the face?

gertrude - it's normally not a good idea to take Quran lessons from Islamophobes. They tend to have these weird ideas.

It is also a sign of desperation when the loons resort to their selective quotes in the light of clear facts - that honour killings are not condoned by any religion. (4.15 does not say honour killings are ok.)

But hey, facts and loon beliefs aren't happy bedfellows.

Cheers,
Shafique

Enlight me please , what does qurn 4 15 say?

Google is your friend, gertrude This thread is however about a murderer who is in jail, and a loon trying to blame Islam for the crime - and failing.

Cheers,
Shafique

Google = Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

The murderer read the above, it s right there, islam preaching, I did not see you condemn the qurn and 4 -15, so let me ask you: should the muftis (clerics) or whoever bearded lunatics expurge 4 15?

desertdudeshj wrote:Is it phobe reunion day weekend already ?

Nope. It's "Shaf is back" time.

Key sentence 'confine them to houses until death do claim them' - that does NOT mean 'kill' them!

shafique wrote:can enlighten us as to how many of the homicides in the USA are carried out by a. Muslims and b. Muslim honor killings. Is it less than 0.5% ?

There have been many cases in the US where homicides were a result of "honor killings" - more than likely by people who migrated to the US. The percentage should be ZERO!!! Bringing backward thinking to a country that does not acknowledge "honor killings". They are known as "killing", plain and simple.

^Agree that the percentage of murders committed in a mistaken view of honour should indeed be zero.

That it is close to zero (as a % of murders/homicides) in the US where this one murderer was convicted is just a statistical fact, not in anyway condoning his act of murder.

Cheers,
Shafique

One murderer convicted? Shaf, there are many convicted.

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2010/08/musl ... he-future/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... e-US_N.htm
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... .aspx/9958 There is a reference to the Arizona killing in the above article, as well as another killing not previously mentioned.
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/15/can- ... n-america/

I like the term "exporting":

I do not believe that most Americans understand how profoundly different a shame and honor culture is from our own. I do know that the media has consistently misled American readers about what an honor killing is and who commits most honor killings in America, Canada, and Europe. Based on my 2010 study, it is clear that 91% of all honor killings in the West are committed by Muslims. Yes, Hindus and Sikhs commit the rest, but otherwise, they confine their honor killings to India and do not export them to the West. It is not relevant whether Islam, Sharia law, pre-Islamic tribal customs, a misunderstanding of either tribal law or Islam are responsible for such murders. What is relevant is that leading Islamic religious and political figures have not abolished such crimes or excommunicated such murderers.

http://herdgadfly.blogspot.com/2009/02/ ... erica.html

I'm a little suspicious of the blogger (gadfly?!?!) but this quote is taken from a news publication,

Notice the number: 5,000!!! a year!!!

Muslims number somewhere between 3.3 and 7.0 million in the US today, but Daniel Pipes believes that 7 million is a high number. J. Grant Swank writes "In America alone, there are [u][b]5,000 so-called 'honor killing' deaths every year. Five thousand!"

I thought I would stick to the US. The UK numbers are probably much higher.

So, what is the %?

I personally don't believe that there are 5000 honour killings in the USA per year (and certainly wouldn't take a quote given by Daniel Pipes as evidence).

Let's see the real evidence. Then let's see the real %. Then see what proportion are Muslim.

Show me that it is really 5000 and I will humbly apologise for my incredulity. The ball is in your court.

Whatever the number, whatever their religion, all of the murderers did it against the teachings of their religions.

Cheers,
Shafique

It is quite evident, Bora, that Sir Shafique only believes his own stats and will not consider anyone elses, unless they fit with his thinking of course.

It's quite amusing how he has been presented with a verse from the Koran which quite clearly tells the followers that

If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

and he dismisses it with

- it's normally not a good idea to take Quran lessons from Islamophobes. They tend to have these weird ideas.
It is also a sign of desperation when the loons resort to their selective quotes in the light of clear fact

Now it either says that or it doesn't. Why can't Sir Shafique address that instead of going off on one?

But is it not you lot whoa re misinterpreting the quote? Just like others would! Nowhere in that passage does it say the women must be killed! So stop imagining what is written there and actually READ what is there!

Plus sorry, but honour killings are more cultural than religious.

Chocoholic wrote:But is it not you lot whoa re misinterpreting the quote? Just like others would! Nowhere in that passage does it say the women must be killed! So stop imagining what is written there and actually READ what is there!

Plus sorry, but honour killings are more cultural than religious.

You lot? Are you siding with the muzzers Chocs? Who's misinterpreting the quote, it's not the non muslims who commit the honour killings.

So by your post, am I right in interpreting that you think it's ok for a woman to be locked away till death claims her, but not actually killed?
I, for one, would rather be dead than locked away till I died of natural causes.

I read a book about this happening to a woman in Saudi where she was locked away in a room made by her family. She was passed meals through a hatch and eventually went stark raving mad. Another story was that of a teenage girl who disgraced her family and was sentenced to death by her father. The killing was to take place at 11am on a Friday at which time he lined her up and pushed her into the family swimming pool and held her under till she drowned.

I think I'd choose the latter if given the choice.

Chocoholic wrote:Plus sorry, but honour killings are more cultural than religious.

That's exactly what the link I gave above points out.

Sikhs, Hindus etc also commit these murders.
eg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sh ... e-12431942
and
http://www.hindustantimes.com/We-ve-no- ... 58270.aspx

But I'm intrigued to find out now what the % of murders in the USA each year are 'honour killings'. I can't believe that there are 5000 such murders.. but perhaps I'm wrong - let's see the evidence.

Cheers,
Shafique

Chocoholic wrote:Key sentence 'confine them to houses until death do claim them' - that does NOT mean 'kill' them!

There are other passages that relate the actions of a prophet who killed a child because he would dishonor his parents ('honor killing').

That verse alone, that it is in the Koran and a prophet of God carried out the honor killing, is religious justification enough for them to be performed by literalists.

I'm interested in knowing whether the verse Gertrude brought up is still believed to be followed by Muslims today. Another member mentioned the Saudis have followed this verse when they have in the past home confined a number of princesses and other female members of the royal family.

What is 'lewdness' and whose home are these women to be locked up forever in?



There's another interesting fact about honor killings, in Islamic Law, from what I heard, the family of a murder victim will often decide the punishment for the convicted murderer. In the case of an honor killing, the victim's family is often in agreement with the actions of the killer, who is almost always a member of the family.

So, honor killers get off lightly because the family agreed with the killing and the killer is a member of the family.

It would be interesting to know where this law derives from. Would Muslims ever disagree with the rule if it was shown to originate from Koran?

Let me know if anyone on my foe list posts any figures - particularly the % of murders in the USA each year that are 'honor killings'.

Don't let me know if they just trot out the usual 'bible camp' interpretations of Islam (which should be in the religion thread in any case)

Cheers,
Shafique

This is a decent article pertaining to what I previously wrote about from Wiki. Unfortunately, the article does not cite any of its sources, apart from verses from the Koran:

One notable characteristic of Sharia is that the family of a murder victim can pardon the murderer. In Islam the victim or the victim's family are the judges for all crimes; they decide what the punishment shall be under the supervision of a jurist who knows the Qur'an.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_a ... ment#Islam

This provides a very big loophole allowing honor killers to exploit.

Chocoholic wrote:Key sentence 'confine them to houses until death do claim them' - that does NOT mean 'kill' them!

What happened to you Choc? you turning like muzzies, how can you condone unlawful imprisonment, reckless endangerment and may be more crimes (manslaughter).
You will notice that no muzzies, including Shafique rejects the quran and this verses 415, they only avoid the matter hiding like cowards.

^I'm not the one who appears to be in hiding.

One mention of statistics and facts to herve and he's nowhere to be found.

Only Islamophobes can interpret 4.15 as condoning the murders that are called 'honor killings' - the rest of humanity can read and understand the words just fine. (Even the nutters who do commit these murders can't twist 4.15 to mean that it is ok to kill one's daughter etc)

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Let me know if anyone on my foe list posts any figures - particularly the % of murders in the USA each year that are 'honor killings'.

Don't let me know if they just trot out the usual 'bible camp' interpretations of Islam (which should be in the religion thread in any case)

Cheers,
Shafique

The figure is that qurn condones unlawfull imprisonment and wreckless endangerment of innocent women ,you support it and try to deceit again with irrelevant stats.
now we know that according to you the wording of this islamic rule is just fine.
quran 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Capsicum - instead of inventing silly scenarios to condemn Islam, why don't you focus on real crimes (there are quite a few in the Muslim world).

I'm not aware of any Muslim lady who was found guilty after 4 witnesses testified to her lewdness and then was subject to 'unlawful imprisonment' in her bedroom by her husband. Let alone any who then died.

I do know of murders of wives/daughters - those are real crimes and are condemned by all religions.

If you are not a loon (i.e. an Islamophobe) you'd pay attention to reality and facts. If you're a loon, you'll be in denial. Which is it?


BTW - still waiting to read what the % of murders in the US are 'honour killings'.

Cheers,
Shafique

This thread is not about % or stats, whether it is 0.0001 or 5,000 % is irrelevant.
It is about the fact that islam condone the murder, unlawfull imprisonment, and reckless endangerment of young women who have chosen freedom. it is official and in writting:
Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Four witnesses are only required for fornication.

No one has explained what constitutes as 'lewdness'.

But since Hadith and the Koran provide a separate punishment for fornication (stoning and lashing for married and unmarried, respectively), it can be safely concluded that four witnesses are not needed for home confinement.