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Hey, I didn't know that pointing out the facts meant posting the official line from the Israeli government - unless you agree with me that the Israeli forces were not superior to the Arabs. Therefore, you were wrong and I agree with you on that.

In fact, the facts show the exact opposite - the Arabs were the ones with the advanced aircraft and armory, as my quote clearly shows. Do you disagree with the facts? I'm happy for you to show where the author(s) of the article I posted from were wrong.

Anyways, I thank you again for showing the inherent bias of many BBC articles and why I should take future BBC spin... ahem, ahem, I mean, articles, with a grain of salt, if that.

You say tomato...

I asked whether you thought that we didn't understand the 'official' line the first time you posted it? Do you think there will be any more clarity if you repeat it again?

I just said let's compare your 'facts' with what the Israeli military said in their internal assessments.

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:You say tomato...

I asked whether you thought that we didn't understand the 'official' line the first time you posted it? Do you think there will be any more clarity if you repeat it again?

I just said let's compare your 'facts' with what the Israeli military said in their internal assessments.

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't get what you don't get.

What is so hard about interpreting the army statistics? Facts speak for themselves right?

Official government reports can create lots of grey area's. If you want proof, you look at the evidence.
Israel didn't have the military backing of the US back in 1967. It was outnumbered in units and military capacity, so they felt cornered. They bombed the USS Liberty and committed warcrimes.

Time to agree and condemn fella's.

RobbyG wrote:

shafique wrote:You say tomato...

I asked whether you thought that we didn't understand the 'official' line the first time you posted it? Do you think there will be any more clarity if you repeat it again?

I just said let's compare your 'facts' with what the Israeli military said in their internal assessments.

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't get what you don't get.

What is so hard about interpreting the army statistics? Facts speak for themselves right?

Official government reports can create lots of grey area's. If you want proof, you look at the evidence.
Israel didn't have the backing of the US back in 1967. It was outnumbered in units and military capacity, so they felt cornered. They bombed the USS Liberty and committed warcrimes.

Time to agree and condemn fella's.

Official government reports. You have two:
Israel - would they lie?
US - not saying anything on the matter. Silence is golden? or is it an admission?

Then you have witnesses - on both sides.
On the Israeli side you have those that confirm some of the events, not much, but some and those that deny.
On the US side you have people who were actually there on the ship who were made to sign statements issued by the US that they would never divulge what had happened - for 40 years. Now their statements have reached the expiry date they are talking. (I guess the US thought that they would be dead or senial in 40 years.) Telling the truth as to what happened. Unfortunately the truth falls to the US for covering up what happened, discounting the lives lost and those injured on the USS Liberty. Just another black mark in US history.

Regardless of who had what, it doesn't change the events that took place regardin the USS Liberty.

OK, so here is Israel worriying that attacking Syria will upset the US...Israel doesn't want to annoy the US, so it attacks the USS Liberty .

Lets not forget that when Israel discovered its mistake, which was the result of events of failed communications, human errors and unfortunate coincidences, stopped their fire and offered the ship assestance. Israel could have finished it off, but it didn't, because it wasn't trying to cover-up anything.

It was a coverup. Israel felt cornered, commited warcrimes by torpedo attack, napalm bombing and killing of lifeboats with US Sailors. The US showed support by ignoring the warcrime against the USS Liberty by recalling twelve fighter jets while they were scrambled to support the USS Liberty.

To limit public opinion (very important to US support of Israel) they forbid people to talk about it. Now it comes out. Israel gets a blow, but after 40 years nobody really gives a crap anymore. So mission succeeded for them.

Nothing really changes.

Flying Dutchman wrote:OK, so here is Israel worriying that attacking Syria will upset the US...Israel doesn't want to annoy the US, so it attacks the USS Liberty .

Lets not forget that when Israel discovered its mistake, which was the result of events of failed communications, human errors and unfortunate coincidences, stopped their fire and offered the ship assestance. Israel could have finished it off, but it didn't, because it wasn't trying to cover-up anything.

You didn't listen to the first videolink I posted. Try again.

RobbyG wrote:It was a coverup. Israel felt cornered, commited warcrimes by torpedo attack, napalm bombing and killing of lifeboats with US Sailors. The US showed support by ignoring the warcrime against the USS Liberty by recalling two fighter jets while they were scrambled to support the USS Liberty.

Israel already beat Egypt in the Sinai when it happened. It didn't feel cornered. It was nervous though about Egyptian naval attacks on the Israeli coast. I still cannot see how this can be a reason to delibirately attack an US vessel. Israel didn't conceive it as a threat at all. What you think Israel thought the USS Liberty was siding with the Egyptians.

So the US also supported this attack by recalling their jets? The US navy wanted Israel to destroy the USS Libert?. Please explain, I will get my popcorn!

Flying Dutchman wrote:OK, so here is Israel worriying that attacking Syria will upset the US...Israel doesn't want to annoy the US, so it attacks the USS Liberty .

Lets not forget that when Israel discovered its mistake, which was the result of events of failed communications, human errors and unfortunate coincidences, stopped their fire and offered the ship assestance. Israel could have finished it off, but it didn't, because it wasn't trying to cover-up anything.

I responded to this section. Israel didn't back off because the scrambled US fighter jets were called off by McNamara and in second order by Lyndon B. Johnson, the US President.



From 1:10 onwards, and especially at 4:00 you hear the involved CIA veteran Ray McGovern tell you about the full intentions of Israel to destroy the ship and its crew to eliminate the intelligence evidence.

The assumed reasons are discussed from the 6:00 minute marker. All commented by Ray Mc Govern, CIA intelligence.


Proof of attacks:

Torpedo hole in Liberty:


This shows the napalm spray effort after the torpedo bombing and the Israeli fighter jet gunspray in the wreckage of the USS Liberty.

Flying Dutchman wrote:OK, so here is Israel worriying that attacking Syria will upset the US...Israel doesn't want to annoy the US, so it attacks the USS Liberty .

Lets not forget that when Israel discovered its mistake, which was the result of events of failed communications, human errors and unfortunate coincidences, stopped their fire and offered the ship assestance. Israel could have finished it off, but it didn't, because it wasn't trying to cover-up anything.

PMSL "discovered its mistake........................." I'm on the floor laughing!!!!

And all those eye witnesses are what: "ghosts"???? Or, or, or.........did someone pay them to make it up?

You are such an asswipe.

RobbyG, really, do you really want to argue with an idiot? He can't even get what he thinks are "facts" right!!! Very possible he is limited on reading comprehensive or suffers from dyslexia. Hopefully there is an excuse for his stupidity.

Israel was surveilling the area where the ship was, I believe, 9 hours before they attacked. I may be wrong on the time, but I have been reading alot on this, but I know that Israel was well aware that the ship was the USS Liberty and tried to cover "their little mistake" by claiming it was an Egyptian vessel (or did the US tell them to say that I wonder) when the US flag was in full and plain sight.

Communications were jammed by the Israelis so that the USS could not send out an SOS to sister ships in the area to help out.

Bora Bora wrote:Communications were jammed by the Israelis so that the USS could not send out an SOS to sister ships in the area to help out.

They did sent out an SOS to the US aircraft carrier. Thats why two US fighter jets were scrambled to support the Liberty. McNamara and LBJ called those off. The veteran guy (John Scott) in the start of the video is the veteran who climbed on the Liberty deck and refitted the antenne cable in a courageous effort to get the SOS out.

You are right, FD is ignoring the facts. He doesn't want to acknowledge the warcrime on the Liberty. Says alot about him.

RobbyG wrote:

shafique wrote:You say tomato...

I asked whether you thought that we didn't understand the 'official' line the first time you posted it? Do you think there will be any more clarity if you repeat it again?

I just said let's compare your 'facts' with what the Israeli military said in their internal assessments.

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't get what you don't get.

What is so hard about interpreting the army statistics? Facts speak for themselves right?

Official government reports can create lots of grey area's. If you want proof, you look at the evidence.
Israel didn't have the military backing of the US back in 1967. It was outnumbered in units and military capacity, so they felt cornered. They bombed the USS Liberty and committed warcrimes.

Time to agree and condemn fella's.

LoL - you have to remember who you're dealing with.

But what do you think of the stats posted? Do you agree that the Arab regimes, Egypt and Syria, were definitely more militarily powerful than Israel's?

event horizon wrote:

RobbyG wrote:

shafique wrote:You say tomato...

I asked whether you thought that we didn't understand the 'official' line the first time you posted it? Do you think there will be any more clarity if you repeat it again?

I just said let's compare your 'facts' with what the Israeli military said in their internal assessments.

Cheers,
Shafique

I don't get what you don't get.

What is so hard about interpreting the army statistics? Facts speak for themselves right?

Official government reports can create lots of grey area's. If you want proof, you look at the evidence.
Israel didn't have the military backing of the US back in 1967. It was outnumbered in units and military capacity, so they felt cornered. They bombed the USS Liberty and committed warcrimes.

Time to agree and condemn fella's.

LoL - you have to remember who you're dealing with.

But what do you think of the stats posted? Do you agree that the Arab regimes, Egypt and Syria, were definitely more militarily powerful than Israel's?

From the information provided, I can conclude that Israel was outnumbered. This makes the need for a surprise factor of attack a substantial factor for victory. Problem is that being outnumbered brings logistical issues, so you don't want to cope with POW's and other 'difficulties'...so thats why I said to you...'but another thing...you just proved that Israel had a solid motive for the (headline) warcrimes...'

They could do without a US spyship who collected evidence from communications. So Israel felt cornered/threatened, needed to get rid of the Liberty spyship and proceeded with other warcrimes and win the war without consequences.

Seems plausible to me.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

RobbyG wrote:It was a coverup. Israel felt cornered, commited warcrimes by torpedo attack, napalm bombing and killing of lifeboats with US Sailors. The US showed support by ignoring the warcrime against the USS Liberty by recalling two fighter jets while they were scrambled to support the USS Liberty.

Israel already beat Egypt in the Sinai when it happened. It didn't feel cornered. It was nervous though about Egyptian naval attacks on the Israeli coast. I still cannot see how this can be a reason to delibirately attack an US vessel. Israel didn't conceive it as a threat at all. What you think Israel thought the USS Liberty was siding with the Egyptians.

So the US also supported this attack by recalling their jets? The US navy wanted Israel to destroy the USS Libert?. Please explain, I will get my popcorn!

The Egyptian and Israeli navy made some naval movements, but never engaged. Merely intimidation. Israel had a motive to get rid of the USS Liberty if you consider that it was about 20km offshore Al-Arish. The former Israeli reservist Gabby Bron, now journalist says he witnessed the execution of POWs near the airport of Al Arish. He said they had to dig their own graves and were sprayed with Uzi's. This is one of those warcrimes that the USS Liberty could have intercepted, perhaps it was another reason, who knows.

The CIA intelligence shows that the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was deliberate and the reports from the Liberty crew could substantiate the following visualisations:

June 8:
09:00 - Incoming aircraft, no markings, flew back towards Gaza
10:00 - Two incoming aircraft with delta wings, no markings, circled three times around the USS Liberty. Liberty crew had no worries as they were clearly identifiable as US Naval vessle.
10:30 - Incoming Fairchild C-117 circled at 70m distance, Israeli markings, USS Liberty was clearly identifiable as US naval vessle, Fairchild revisited at 11:00 and 11:30.

14:00 - Two incoming Mirages at high speed, no markings, identified as non-Arab aircraft as only Israel flew Mirages, encountered rockets and gunfire, napalm for 22min.

After that the Israeli navy attacked with torpedo and commited warcrimes by shooting wounded US sailors in lifeboats.

Time data comes from Dutch wikipedia sources. Now you again.

Facts above do indicate a deliberate decision to commit the war crime against the US.


What was being covered up was the fact a land grab was going on - especially for the water in Golan.

RG you are right - the stats do show Israel was outnumbered, and your conclusions based on this haven't been addressed.
What the Israeli military internal assessment of the time said will be interesting -
but for now your discussion with FD and eh on this war crime amd cover up doesn't really need to worry about this aspect of why
the war was launched - but rather is about a war crime.

shafique wrote:Facts above do indicate a deliberate decision to commit the war crime against the US.


What was being covered up was the fact a land grab was going on - especially for the water in Golan.

RG you are right - the stats do show Israel was outnumbered, and your conclusions based on this haven't been addressed.
What the Israeli military internal assessment of the time said will be interesting -
but for now your discussion with FD and eh on this war crime amd cover up doesn't really need to worry about this aspect of why
the war was launched - but rather is about a war crime.

Exactly. My approach is just as hybrid as the war in 1967.

First we acknowledge the obvious warcrime(s). Then we speculate about tactical/strategic motives that Israel might have used in the process.

But first we need to establish some agreement. So Shafique, will you lead in the condemnation effort? You are such a leader in that...

Well, as you asked - yes, I do indeed condemn the war crime against the Liberty - the facts as presented are pretty persuasive.

I wonder whether anyone will defend the crime or refute the evidence above? (The usual tactics at this stage will be to either a. Change the subject, b. Ignore the question about condemnation or c. Start name-calling.

I agree with that. I consider the attack on the Liberty an obvious warcrime, no matter what the justifications for it were back in 1967.

Lets wait with pleasure on the response from my fellow countrymen, FD...

He can't remain silent on this one. It would ruin his reputation

shafique wrote:I wonder whether anyone will defend the crime or refute the evidence above? (The usual tactics at this stage will be to either a. Change the subject, b. Ignore the question about condemnation or c. Start name-calling.

With c. you must be referring to borderline patient BB.

But I will choose a.: Robby congrats with the great home victory yesterday! You are right on track again.

But seriously, I donot believe a war crime is committed, so there is nothing to condemn for me.

RobbyG wrote:Lets wait with pleasure on the response from my fellow countrymen, FD...

He can't remain silent on this one. It would ruin his reputation

Abologies , buddy, for the late reaction. Had a crazy wild night out. Slept in today.

Flying Dutchman wrote:
But seriously, I donot believe a war crime is committed, so there is nothing to condemn for me.

I'm at awe.

shafique wrote:Facts above do indicate a deliberate decision to commit the war crime against the US.


What was being covered up was the fact a land grab was going on - especially for the water in Golan.

RG you are right - the stats do show Israel was outnumbered, and your conclusions based on this haven't been addressed.
What the Israeli military internal assessment of the time said will be interesting -
but for now your discussion with FD and eh on this war crime amd cover up doesn't really need to worry about this aspect of why
the war was launched - but rather is about a war crime.

I thought the Israeli forces were superior to the Egyptians/Syrians?

Are you now changing your story?

event horizon wrote:

shafique wrote:Facts above do indicate a deliberate decision to commit the war crime against the US.


What was being covered up was the fact a land grab was going on - especially for the water in Golan.

RG you are right - the stats do show Israel was outnumbered, and your conclusions based on this haven't been addressed.
What the Israeli military internal assessment of the time said will be interesting -
but for now your discussion with FD and eh on this war crime amd cover up doesn't really need to worry about this aspect of why
the war was launched - but rather is about a war crime.

I thought the Israeli forces were superior to the Egyptians/Syrians?

Are you now changing your story?

Oh come on EH, he showed progressive insight there. Can't say that about many others.

The Egyptians were the most advanced army back then. Israel was still embracing the Germans...oops, correction...I meant Shermans...

According to the link, IIRC, Germany did give Israel some material assistance a few years before the war.

But yeah, it's interesting to note the complete dichotomy between Israel and the Arab world in '67 and Israel and the Arab world today.

What's amazing, also, is that a superpower in' 67 was actively helping out her allies in the Middle East - pouring billions of dollars worth of military armaments into the pockets of her middle eastern allies' arsenals. It just turns out, though, that the generous 'helper' wasn't the US and the ally receiving the help wasn't Israel.

Funnily enough, no-one seemed bothered that the USSR was helping human rights abusers, such as the Syrian government.

It's only to be condemned if the US or Israel is involved.

Credit is due to FD - he doesn't believe a war crime was commited and says so.

I'm with Robby on this one - clearly a war crime based on the evidence presented by those who were there.

As for whether I believe the stats presented negate the internal Israeli military assessment - for this discussion abiut this war crime - it is moot. In any case until I dig out the refs I can't be certain I'm not wrong (so, happy to go along with eh's argument that the Israselis were the underdogs)

Ya have to root for the underdogs.....

I do - but not when they commit war crimes or slaughter civilians (or enslave virgins) - and don't allow religous fanaticism to excuse actual crimes.

But then again, I understand that guys who share your views say it is ok for palestinian underdogs to blow up civilians because they think god allows this. I disagree with them, and with you.

Flying Dutchman wrote:

shafique wrote:I wonder whether anyone will defend the crime or refute the evidence above? (The usual tactics at this stage will be to either a. Change the subject, b. Ignore the question about condemnation or c. Start name-calling.

With c. you must be referring to borderline patient BB.

But I will choose a.: Robby congrats with the great home victory yesterday! You are right on track again.

But seriously, I donot believe a war crime is committed, so there is nothing to condemn for me.

RobbyG wrote:Lets wait with pleasure on the response from my fellow countrymen, FD...

He can't remain silent on this one. It would ruin his reputation

Abologies , buddy, for the late reaction. Had a crazy wild night out. Slept in today.

Bravo!!! You covered a., b., and c. in one post.

No war crime committed. OOOOOOOKKAY. Then if that's the case: the Holocaust never happened.

Who really cares how you spent your night and/or day???? Or are you just announcing that you actually had something to do??

Can someone summarise for me what's been agreed?

Was the attack a war crime or not? (I think FD states it wasn't - but is this just a 'belief')

Cheers,
Shafique

Are you serious Shaf?

I thought we agreed that it was a crime, given the fact that Israels airforce attacked (rockets, napalm and strafe attacks) the USS Liberty after surveying the USS Liberty multiple times earlier that day. The real warcrime is the deliberate killing of US sailors in lifeboats, after the air/naval attack. See the video of the survivors who tell you their story after 40 years of silence.

Yes, a warcrime.