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I'm reading with interest the discussion - and I have to say I have sympathy for views expressed by both FD and RobbyG - they make their points well.

For Wilders - I only know him from the 'Fitna' episode - and there I actually supported his right to make his point. I thnk it is always better to have views out in the open where the counter argument can also be heard and people can make up their minds. It's only an issue if the views expressed in Fitna were given disproportionate importance or airing.

On the immigrant issue in the Netherlands - I can't speak with any authority, as I've only visited Amsterdam once just over a year ago. It struck me as being no more (or less) diverse than London. But then again, I'd imagine that Amsterdam is not representative of the Netherlands generally - any more than New York or London are for the US and UK.

But may I ask a pertinent question? In the UK, the biggest segment of illegal immigrants (primarily over-stayers for economic reasons) are the Australians and South Africans, but the popular media and outcry is actually over either the 'brown skinned' or lately the 'Polish' immigrants. In many cases it is just the 'politically acceptable' way to be racist/xenophobic - the arguments about benefit cheats etc just don't hold water (immigrants in the UK are less likely to be on benefits, for example - with the growing feral underclass being the real issue there).

Is this a feature in Holland? Are the Morrocan youths being used as an excuse for Islamophobia? Also, history has taught us that when times are good, economically, these issues aren't high profile - but in downturns convenient scapegoats are found for people to vent their frustrations on - and typically the scapegoating has been unfair. (Again, I'm speaking generally and don't know whether this is applicable to Holland). What do you guys think?

(Just a question, I don't know - from the sound of it, stronger punishments of offenders sounds like a good idea

Bora Bora wrote:So, if you remove those immigrants from the Netherlands, the Netherlands will be crime free and you can tear down the prisons.

It's absolutely true but hardly plausible scenario in such a decadent democracy as Holland. I have always wondered why Rob emphasized on financial aspect only as he has received no unemloyment benefits and don't pay any taxes. In my view, the main issue is a criminal component of the immigrants from the Third World.

In Russia it's the fact, not assumption, that most violent crimes (90%) are commited by honorable members of nomadic tribes from Caucasus Mountains. Mr. Shafique, there is no reason to be nervous, as a half of them are kind "Christians".

I don't believe that Geert Wilders is able to put things in order like Joseph Stalin could. :) However, Rob would not vote for Stalin because the latter would force Rob to do something for a living, which is of cause out of Rob's business model. :)

RobbyG wrote:I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

As usual your answers don't address the actual post/thread as you choose to answer questions you put to yourself. You totally avoid addressing the actual topic which is his using his right to "freedom of speech" to incite hatred towards Islam!!! or did you miss that?? Why don't you read the OP and all the other posts so that when you respond you can be on the same page as the thread/posts, otherwise go start another thread of your own. This has nothing to do with the media hitting on Islam, it has to do with a hate monger who is now holding a government position with a view towards becoming Prime Minister.

To help you along: the topic is about his stirring up hate towards a religion - ISLAM!! Or didn't you notice? It is not about immigrants. He is currently in the midst of a trial because of his right to use "freedom of speech" to incite hatred. The man is toxic!!!

Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. What happened RobbyG, have you overstepped and now people have a clearer picture of where you stand? The mere fact that you would consider him as a second choice in an election speaks volumes hon. Shame on you.

Bora Bora wrote:Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. Shame on you.

It looks lake the main intension for writing the OP. Nothing new, the same Bronx cheer.

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. Shame on you.

It looks lake the main intension for writing the OP. Nothing new, the same Bronx cheer.

Your post is as irrelevant as you are. Either get with the program or go back to hibernating in your cave.

Red Chief wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:So, if you remove those immigrants from the Netherlands, the Netherlands will be crime free and you can tear down the prisons.

It's absolutely true but hardly plausible scenario in such a decadent democracy as Holland. I have always wondered why Rob emphasized on financial aspect only as he has received no unemloyment benefits and don't pay any taxes. In my view, the main issue is a criminal component of the immigrants from the Third World.

First of all, welcome back Chiefert.

Second, you are free to wonder whatever you like. Call it a sabbatical if you like. I enrich my mind instead of government coffers, for now that is.

I agree with the criminal component. No decadence here. Too much Calvinistic roots.

RobbyG wrote: Too many Calvinistic roots.

Max Weber? I like this guy too. Good reply to Marx. Anyway it's good to hear such an optimism. I'm not sure that our Mooslim friends share it.

shafique wrote:But may I ask a pertinent question? In the UK, the biggest segment of illegal immigrants (primarily over-stayers for economic reasons) are the Australians and South Africans, but the popular media and outcry is actually over either the 'brown skinned' or lately the 'Polish' immigrants. In many cases it is just the 'politically acceptable' way to be racist/xenophobic - the arguments about benefit cheats etc just don't hold water (immigrants in the UK are less likely to be on benefits, for example - with the growing feral underclass being the real issue there).

Is this a feature in Holland? Are the Morrocan youths being used as an excuse for Islamophobia? Also, history has taught us that when times are good, economically, these issues aren't high profile - but in downturns convenient scapegoats are found for people to vent their frustrations on - and typically the scapegoating has been unfair. (Again, I'm speaking generally and don't know whether this is applicable to Holland). What do you guys think?

(Just a question, I don't know - from the sound of it, stronger punishments of offenders sounds like a good idea

I'm not aware of the fact that Islamophobia plays are big role in our societal problems. The Dutch people aren't exactly intolerant. Rather the opposite, though private. You can do whatever you like, if you respect others people's privacy and rights.

This can result in some (young) groups of immigrants that feel bored, perhaps unappreciated, looked down upon by strange habits, all depending on their roots and cultural differences with eachother. So certain groups of immigrants flock together and create language barriers, cultural barriers instead of integrating into the native population. What I see among young Moroccan boys, is that they need to show absolute restraint and respect at home with their fathers, but have the freedom of Holland as they get outside on the streets, while knowing their rights all to well. So to avoid the hard hand at home, they foster outside, in groups, showing rude behaviour, smoking pot and pissing in peoples alleys and doorways. The young Moroccan problem is just one example, but they are the most notable and fierceful in disrespect to other groups of people. And the weird part is that they feel scapegoated by us!

I don't get that mentality. So it fostered for a long time and now people want tougher laws. Harder punishments etc. To me it seems as if some foreigners just don't feel home here, low participation in society while resting on (partial) unemployment benefits, some dealing drugs or robbing the grannies. There's a growing feeling of unsafety, but reaching the point where people just had enough.

Prisons are 50% empty in this country, but politicians are just too soft on revolving criminals. This goes for all types of criminals. But its in part an integration problem that has to be taken up at the root of the problem, which is immigration. The incentives are totally wrong. Costs are skyrocketing. Some cities have integration programs that costs 200.000 euro's for an immigrant to get a job. Are you kidding me!?

Islamophobia is just populism used by some politicians like Wilders. Not really of direct issue to me when considering his entire party program, but terrorism in Europe does make people wary and scared. Some Dutch perhaps respond to that if they look at some of the immigrant groups who are overly represented in criminal statistics. Perhaps some are wary of the growing number of Islamic worshipping places on top locations funded by foreign interests.

What struck me about the latest regional elections, is that there were muslim voters who helped their peers in voting cabins (fraud), just so they select the candidate that was recommended by some religious body in a foreign country. Can you believe that crap?

Anyway, because of these kind of developments, people anticipate and act accordingly before its becoming widespread.

I don't believe that Geert Wilders is able to put things in order like Joseph Stalin could. However, Rob would not vote for Stalin because the latter would force Rob to do something for a living, which is of cause out of Rob's business model.

Hahahaha, true! and welcome back RC!

Bora Bora wrote:

RobbyG wrote:I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

As usual your answers don't address the actual post/thread as you choose to answer questions you put to yourself. You totally avoid addressing the actual topic which is his using his right to "freedom of speech" to incite hatred towards Islam!!! or did you miss that?? Why don't you read the OP and all the other posts so that when you respond you can be on the same page as the thread/posts, otherwise go start another thread of your own. This has nothing to do with the media hitting on Islam, it has to do with a hate monger who is now holding a government position with a view towards becoming Prime Minister.

To help you along: the topic is about his stirring up hate towards a religion - ISLAM!! Or didn't you notice? It is not about immigrants. He is currently in the midst of a trial because of his right to use "freedom of speech" to incite hatred. The man is toxic!!!

Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. What happened RobbyG, have you overstepped and now people have a clearer picture of where you stand? The mere fact that you would consider him as a second choice in an election speaks volumes hon. Shame on you.

Well said, As much as i have no problem with raising hate against Islam, but u have right points there Bora.

Thanks for the insights Robby - makes interesting reading.

Being hard on youth is a tactic tried in the UK - with the 'ASBOs' - anti-social behaviour orders. The perverse thing is that became a badge of honour amongst these 'feral' youth - a whole section of society that seems to fit your description of what the Morrocan youths are exemplifying in Holland. This underclass in the Uk is actually more defined by class - poor who survive on benefit and generally come from single parent families, usually generations of single parents. Many of these kids don't know anyone who has held a job! (Well, that is what the media have us believe).

So, if being soft on crime doesn't work in Holland, I'd agree with you that being a bit harder is the logical alternative. (But, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to thinking that moral and family values start with a marriage and stable home relationship of a nuclear family - call me old-fashioned.. - but that may not explain the Morrocan kids in Holland though, just the underclass in the UK)

Cheers,
Shafique

melika969 wrote:

Bora Bora wrote:

RobbyG wrote:I can't believe what I read from you. Such prejudice and assumptions but nothing relating to what I've said.

What agenda are you on? I'm talking about ALL immigrants. Black, white, yellow and purple. General policy. Comprende?

Second, this is just one topic, there are many more that are not mentioned by you. So I can't take your arguments seriously. You don't even know what the partylines are?

Do you agree with every partyline your political party has? No of course not. But you choose the one party that has the best possible solution to your interest. Everyone is free to do so.

Just because the media likes to hit on Islam, I couldn't care less about that. Its the entire policy of immigration that follows the wrong incentives. I told it before. READDD for once.

I hope you have more brains in reality than you just portrayed to DF.

As usual your answers don't address the actual post/thread as you choose to answer questions you put to yourself. You totally avoid addressing the actual topic which is his using his right to "freedom of speech" to incite hatred towards Islam!!! or did you miss that?? Why don't you read the OP and all the other posts so that when you respond you can be on the same page as the thread/posts, otherwise go start another thread of your own. This has nothing to do with the media hitting on Islam, it has to do with a hate monger who is now holding a government position with a view towards becoming Prime Minister.

To help you along: the topic is about his stirring up hate towards a religion - ISLAM!! Or didn't you notice? It is not about immigrants. He is currently in the midst of a trial because of his right to use "freedom of speech" to incite hatred. The man is toxic!!!

Once again you think you have the intellectual advantage over everyone on DF. You are a judgmental, condescending asswipe with a superior attitude as shown in the way you "talk" to people. What happened RobbyG, have you overstepped and now people have a clearer picture of where you stand? The mere fact that you would consider him as a second choice in an election speaks volumes hon. Shame on you.

Well said, As much as i have no problem with raising hate against Islam, but u have right points there Bora.

Well, I tried to indicate to you how I think about some OTHER partylines in his program. You constantly make it sound as if I like him as my second choice just because of his Islam standpoint. I don't. And its just ONE fraction of his plans/program for my country. Besides I don't even vote on him. So again, why are you after me on this one?!?

I merely explained the dynamics of immigration in my country and my viewpoint around it. If you want to know what Wilders thinks, give him an email. I merely told you my viewpoints.

I'm not going to defend that guy. I only look at the solutions he offers to the problem IN my country and I like the VVD better. Hope that clarifies.

shafique wrote:Thanks for the insights Robby - makes interesting reading.

Being hard on youth is a tactic tried in the UK - with the 'ASBOs' - anti-social behaviour orders. The perverse thing is that became a badge of honour amongst these 'feral' youth - a whole section of society that seems to fit your description of what the Morrocan youths are exemplifying in Holland. This underclass in the Uk is actually more defined by class - poor who survive on benefit and generally come from single parent families, usually generations of single parents. Many of these kids don't know anyone who has held a job! (Well, that is what the media have us believe).

So, if being soft on crime doesn't work in Holland, I'd agree with you that being a bit harder is the logical alternative. (But, I'm a traditionalist when it comes to thinking that moral and family values start with a marriage and stable home relationship of a nuclear family - call me old-fashioned.. - but that may not explain the Morrocan kids in Holland though, just the underclass in the UK)

Cheers,
Shafique

Indeed, a stronger rule should be applied. I gave the example of the Morrocan youth, but that goes for native Dutch sleezeballs also.

The only hardline rule I would incline to support is that when immigrants come here, and I assume thats because they hope to gain a better life. If some cases are showing criminal behaviour or don't obey the (soft) laws of this land, then I would say, repeal the visa or passport and move out. Go back to your own country and go make that place unsafe. Problem is that in some of those countries, when stealing, your arm will be chopped off. So the mentality of some fooks just needs to change a bit. We need a somewhat stronger arm of the law (police) in my opinion.

I haven't mentioned the immigrants from all over the world who do integrate well and bring diversity here. They deserve the credit for showing how its done. So I want to express that here also. Those people are most welcome. Logically.

melika969 wrote:

I don't believe that Geert Wilders is able to put things in order like Joseph Stalin could. However, Rob would not vote for Stalin because the latter would force Rob to do something for a living, which is of cause out of Rob's business model.

Hahahaha, true! and welcome back RC!

LOL From that perspective....A good kick below the buttocks might do some good indeed.

I think we can all agree on the problems that countries are faced with immigration.

But the thread has been taken totally off track: the point I was making is that this man is inciting hatred directly towards Muslims - not towards immigrants - and that he is using "freedom of speech" as his right to incite that hatred. Those are two separate issues. Immigrants come in all faiths.