Women's Rights...Read Infidel?

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Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
I've really been thinking about Islam, women's rights and immigration issues after reading Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It was a very interesting read that brings up important issues. So fascinating to see her perspective change over time... What a life she has lived! Has anyone else here read it?

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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
The book was also praised by Andrew Anthony in The Observer, though with a critical note: "But of course in voicing her opinion in the style she does, she risks lumping together over a billion people from different nations, cultures and traditions as a single 'problem'". A book review in the The Economist echoed Anthony's sentiment, stating "much as she tries, the kind of problems that Ms Hirsi Ali describes in Infidel are all too human to be blamed entirely on Islam. Her book shows that her life, like those of other Muslims, is more complex than many people in the West may have realised. But the West's tendency to seek simplistic explanations is a weakness that Ms Hirsi Ali also shows she has been happy to exploit."

Muslim reporter Lorraine Ali in Newsweek magazine gave the book a negative review, claiming that the reader will feel "manipulated" by Hirsi's story and "Hirsi Ali is more a hero among Islamophobes than Islamic women." She also said that Hirsi sounds as "single-minded and reactionary as the zealots she's worked so hard to oppose."

Just another "dutch" trying to make hay while the islamophobe sun is shining, nothing new. But if someone is looking at someone or something to support their anti islamic views then yes this kind of reading is recomended for them. Probally already in the library of our resident troll here.
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
I haven't read the book, Infidel, yet, but have put it on my 'must download' list.

In above to the reviews above mentioned by DD of infidel, there's this review of her latest book 'Nomad' which makes some interesting observations about the author's views:

An Atheist’s Idealized Christianity

The Dangerous Theological Fantasies of Ayaan Hirsi Ali
By SPENCER DEW


Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born former Dutch politician based now at the American Enterprise Institute, draws on her own harrowing childhood and journey from Islam to atheism (or, as she calls it in the subtitle of her most recent book, Nomad: From Islam to America, a Personal Journey Through the Clash of Civilizations) to argue that Islam poses a grave threat to Western civilization, which she identifies as rooted in the legacy and ideals of the Enlightenment, specifically in individualism, free expression, and rational inquiry.

Yet Ali’s work is as much an argument for a specific understanding of Christianity as it is a specific understand of Islam. Ali holds to radically distorted visions of each religion such that Christianity emerges as a private, more or less secular set of beliefs about divine love while Islam emerges as a monolithic, oppressive system of group-think. Christianity is rational and science-friendly; Islam is a continuation of a perverse pre-medieval mindset.

Ali, of course, is an atheist, and she frequently cites 9/11 as the tipping point in her own rejection of religion, claiming in her new book that “I found it impossible to ignore [bin Laden’s] claims that the murderous destruction of innocent (if infidel) lives is consistent with the Qur’an. I looked in the Qur’an, and I found it to be so. To me this meant that I could no longer be a Muslim.”

Building a Straw Horse

Religious terrorists justify their actions via scripture and tradition: from racist militias citing Genesis to Muslim groups drawing on the words of the Qur’an and the example of the Prophet. Ali, however, insists that the exegesis of Islamic terrorists is correct, true to Qur’anic intent and the history of Islam. She dismisses Muslim protests against such justifications as naïve and uninformed. “Most Muslims do not know the content of the Qur’an or the Hadith or any other Islamic scripture,” she argues, going on to insist that while “the much-quoted edict promoting freedom of religion is indeed in the Qur’an… its authority is nullified by verses that descended upon the Prophet later, when he was better armed and when his following had grown to great numbers.” Her own vision of Islam thus shapes her interpretation.

Likewise, in the face of repeating Qur’anic refrains about the compassionate nature of the divine, Ali argues that “Muslims who say that Allah is peaceful and compassionate simply do not know about other concepts of God, or the concepts they do have are wrong.” Nevermind that Islamic thinkers have, since the dawn of the tradition, had much to say about the paradox of a God at once compassionate and just; Ali’s interest here is in constructing a straw horse. Thus, while she holds that “uncritical Muslim attitude toward the Qur’an” poses a threat to civilization, she simultaneously opposes any exegetical work that offers alternatives to her own (and the terrorists’) simplistic, violent interpretations—theological work she dismisses as “reinterpreting the Qur’an so as to tone it down.”

Idealizing Christianity

While Ali is eloquent in her admiration for the ideals of the Enlightenment, she is equally indebted to the Reformation. Recognizing that some humans may still need religion “as a source of comfort,” she is willing to allow them that, yet she rejects what she sees as more problematic manifestations of religion, notably “religion as a moral gauge, a guideline for life,” which function she sees as applying “above all to Islam.” Acceptable religion, in other words, is “protestant” with a small ‘p’—individual piety— something, Ali argues, that should remain in the individual heart and house, but not seek to effect political change.

In contrast to her monolithic fantasy of Islam, Ali offers a vision of Christianity that is equally fantastic, a religion of individualism and critical reflection where the old superstitions have been replaced with humanist abstractions. “Nowadays,” she writes, “God is referred to as ‘love’ or as ‘energy,’ and those who believe in Him have done away with the concept of hell.” While she admits that there are certain “freak-show churches” opposed to, for instance, the theory of evolution, Christianity is presented by Ali as, all for all, a force for the good. Indeed, in her new book, this atheist calls on “the community of Christian churches” to act as “a very useful ally in the battle against Islamic fanaticism.”

One terrifying aspect of Ali’s developing thought on Islam, however, is that “Islamic fanaticism” is no longer presented as an extreme but as the norm. While in earlier writings, Ali made parallels between Christian fundamentalists and their claims about the Bible with “fundamentalist Muslims [who] consider the Qur’an a perfect, timeless representation of the unchanging word of God,” she has now revised her thinking and insists that “Anyone who identifies himself as a Muslim believes that the Qur’an is the true, immutable word of God. It should be followed to the letter.” While some Muslims may not “obey” in this way “they believe that they should.” Thus, seemingly “moderate” Muslims among us are in fact a potential threat, wolves in Western clothing, their religion necessarily in conflict with the ideals of the contemporary Western state. As she chillingly phrases her stance: “Can you be a Muslim and an American patriot? You can if you don’t care very much about being a Muslim.”

A War Between Theologies?

Thus, atheist Ali, in her crusade against Islam, turns to her idealized vision of a Christian community. Arguing that the world is undergoing a clash not so much of civilizations but of theologies, Ali actually begins to resemble none other than the fundamentalist Islamists whom she credits with prompting her religious turn, who likewise frame the current moment in terms of a war between theologies. “I feel we now need a Christian school for every madrassa,” she writes, basing this policy prescription on the assumption that Christian schools “teach not only the full range of sciences and the humanities, but also about a God who created reason and told humankind to let reason prevail.”

Convinced that radical jihadist interpretations represent the true intent of the Qur’an, Ali perceives her own mission as a public intellectual as alerting non-Muslims to the danger in their midst while persuading Muslims to “admit that the Prophet Muhammad’s example is fallible, that not everything in the Qur’an is perfect or true.” In this regard, however, she has arrived at a theory that most Muslims are in search of a redemptive God. They believe that there is a higher power and that this higher power is the provider of morality, giving them a compass to help them distinguish between good and bad. Many Muslims are seeking a God or a concept of God that in my view meets the description of the Christian God. Instead they are finding Allah.
“Many Muslims… need a spiritual anchor in their lives,” Ali writes, but since Islam must be as she insists that it is, this atheist thinker has, oddly, become a sort of proselytizer for her own idealistic vision of Christianity. “This modern Christian God is synonymous with love,” she writes, “His agents do not preach hatred, intolerance, and discord; this God is merciful, does not seek state power, and sees no competition with science. His followers view the Bible as a book full of parables, not direct commands to be obeyed.”

It is unlikely that many American Muslims will find Ali’s hateful characterization of their own religion convincing—let alone her dreamy musings about a utopian Christianity. Ali may well be preaching, so to speak, to the choir, but it is a choir poisoned by distorted visions of Islam and a dangerous recapitulation of the terrorist fantasy of the world as a battleground between religions and gods.


http://www.religiondispatches.org/books/atheologies/2678/an_atheist%E2%80%99s_idealized_christianity/

Spencer Dew is a visiting lecturer in the department of Philosophy and Religious Studies, Iowa State University. He holds a PhD from the University of Chicago
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
Seems like she is bending over in all directions to please both atheist and christian crowd. Maybe in her next book she will bend over for the Jews and Hindus. Anything to score with the Islamophobes in each sector.
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
Didn't read the book. But guess what, she had to leave the country because of death threats. She took them serious after the killing of Theo van Gogh (with whom she produced a short movie critizising Islam) by a Muslim who took the words of Muhammed literal. Obviously Muslims got their way, almost nobody dares to crtitzise Islam anymore in Holland. They managed to change the country (and not for the best IMO).
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
^This may be out of date, but her Wiki entry says she's back in the Netherlands, doing her work for the American institute from there:

On September 25, 2007, she received her United States Permanent Resident Card (green card).[66] Since October 2007 she has continued her work for AEI from a secret address in the Netherlands. Her move back to the Netherlands was a result of the ruling of the Dutch minister of Justice Hirsch Ballin that, as of October 1, 2007, the Dutch government would no longer pay for her security while she was abroad. In 2007 she declined with thanks an offer to live in Denmark, and said that she intended to return to the United States.[67]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
Well, if you didn't know before, you probably have now.

The slightest criticism of Islam makes the hairs on the neck of every Muslim stand on end.

You are now an official Islamophobe.

And don't say you were trying to start dialogue.

Too late, the damage has been done.

(welcome to the club)
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
Did someone call Kanelli an Islamophobe or Loon??

Kanelli, you should feel honoured that eh has welcomed you to his club. It's full of very imaginative people with fanciful ideas! ;) (But it does appear they are desperate to get new members though)

:)

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
Well, doesn't make for good discussion if no one hasn't read it themselves. People are of course entitled to their own reviews of her books, but I wouldn't write her off based on others' reviews.

I can see how Muslim men would be very rattled by her opinions, but it would be great to hear what some Muslim women think.

I was thinking that Hirsi Ali could manage to be a "moderate Muslim", like many out there. Some drink, have had boy or girlfriends before marriage, don't pray 5 times a day except maybe during Ramadan which they do fast for, etc. However, she has claimed that according to the Quran there really is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. This is why she shifted to atheism, because according to her interpretation of the Quran it is an all or nothing faith. Would some agree? Moderate Muslims tend to integrate in non-Muslim societies better than devoutly faithful. What implication would this have on a population? Is there tolerance for secular schooling and secular laws, or would that be viewed as sinful disobedience to God's laws for how society should be run? Is it beneficial for a host society to have separate parallel societies running through it with no intention to integrate? Most importantly, how should a host society deal with unequal treatment of women and children in a separate parallel society?

Hirsi Ali doesn't seem to be a huge a fan of Christianity beyond pointing out that Christianity has adapted with a modern civilization that supports human rights and ethics, more equality between the se.x.es and also separation of church and state when it comes to law-making etc. Of course, Christian religious conservatism creeps in still, e.g. the US when it comes to issues like abortion and homo.se.xuality, but our civilization is much more bearable for everyone to live in compared to Biblical times. Still, I think her point stands that devoutly religious Islamic countries seem centuries behind the times when it comes to human rights and ethical and equitable governance of the population (especially women and children). I haven't read her other book, so haven't seen all she has to say about Christianity vs Islam.

Sleep deprived again, so hopefully my rambling makes sense. :)

According to Hirsi Ali's more recent writings, she is in Washington DC.

-- Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:56 pm --

Sorry, I forgot to add that I definitely agree with one noted flaw in Hirsi Ali's arguments, and that is that things like honour killing and FGM are not exclusive features of Islamic societies and shouldn't be presented as such. Actually, I think she did point that out about FGM.
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
Ali's critics say she has just jumped on an Islamophobic band wagon. She associated herself with Wilders in the Netherlands and is preaching to the converted with many of her views about Islam.

kanelli, there is theory and there is also actual empirical evidence for your question about whether Ali is correct in her interpretation of the Quran is an all or nothing faith.

There are certainly Muslims who we'd class as 'ultra-conservative' (our equivalent of the Haredim) who do have an ultra strict view - be it the Wahabbi extremists or Shia extremists or Indian Muslim extremist 'Mullahs'.

But then you have the Muslims such as the ones who are featured on this website:
http://inspiredbymuhammad.com/

There is nothing stopping a religious Muslim (and I consider myself one, for example) from integrating fully in societies that aren't Muslim. Only some fringe nutters spout hypocritical polemic about over-throwing the West whilst living off state aid and enjoying Western freedom of speech etc.

Part of the problem with loon ideology is that they are painting ALL Muslims and the whole religion of Islam with the views of the fringe nutters. This is not done with Judaism (eg saying that all Jews are racist etc) or Christians.

This following quote from a rebuttal of an Islamphobic fraud makes my general point:

I would also point out to Spencer that the best way to undermine ultraconservative interpretations is to support reformist ones. But Spencer wants to deny this option to Muslims, because it would mean that the entire faith of Islam could not be vilified. The only option that should be given to Muslims, according to Spencer’s philosophy, is to leave Islam, and of course it would be ideal to convert to Christianity. At the end of the day, Spencer is a Catholic polemicist who is waging a crusade against Islam. The very first words in his book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) are “Deus Vult!” (God wills it!), which was “the rallying cry of the First Crusade”; and the very last sentence of his book explicitly calls for a crusade against Islam. His book then is “Deus Vult…Crusade”, and everything in between those two words is just propaganda to justify the Crusade that God willed.


http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/05/do-muslims-want-to-reimpose-dhimmitude-or-live-as-equals/
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 20, 2010
I was thinking that Hirsi Ali could manage to be a "moderate Muslim", like many out there. Some drink, have had boy or girlfriends before marriage, don't pray 5 times a day except maybe during Ramadan which they do fast for, etc. However, she has claimed that according to the Quran there really is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. This is why she shifted to atheism, because according to her interpretation of the Quran it is an all or nothing faith.


That part I totally agree. I don't think a moderate muslim is actually a muslim, It s like a whole package, U should accept it all or not!
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 21, 2010
Well, Muslims assimilating in non-Muslim societies in the West for example, would have to accept secular education systems and secular laws. Women would be free to dress how they like, have freedom of movement, freedom of choice who they marry, a set legal age where they are permitted to marry, and legal rights to have anyone abusing them arrested and charged with the crime. Muslims would be mixing daily with males and females of other faiths and cultures and therefore exposed to different ideas and ways of living. Would this be acceptable for most devout Muslims? Is there some kind of internal pressure that would stop women from using these rights in the society.... Methinks yes.

I remember one of my students who is British of Bangladeshi origin, who had a bit of breakdown and had to take leave during that year of study because she had been sent to Bangladesh after high school to marry a man she didn't really know. All she wanted to do was study in a multi-country university program and get a good career (and marry for love like most of the young women around her!), but was married off and struggling to do her studies as well as maintain her obligations to her marriage and family. What would have or should have happened to her if she had refused that marriage?

Another memory is cycling with my best friend in Montreal when we saw a Muslim family playing in the park. The father and young son were dressed in short sleeves and long shorts, while the mother was draped in black fabric. It was over 30 degrees in full sunshine. The breeze was blowing. It was a beautiful day. The men could stay cool and feel the breeze - enjoy the weather, but the woman could not. Being out in public and breezy sunny days are only for men to enjoy, clearly. Women need to be modest and hide themselves like they aren't really there...

One of my Muslim colleagues in Dubai got married and immediately told his new wife that she was no longer allowed to go swimming in public anymore (even though she wore a burkini-like suit). She was very disappointed because she liked to go to the beach and swim. She must submit herself to the will of her husband (who is free to go to beach and swim in his swimming shorts!)...

It is this kind of control of women that I despise. Religious or cultural beliefs or not, it is unfair and archaic when women are not afforded equal rights to men.
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 21, 2010
kanelli wrote:Well, Muslims assimilating in non-Muslim societies in the West for example, would have to accept secular education systems and secular laws.


Check. My daughter actually goes to a Catholic school - but that's because of the education, not the fact it is run by the Church.

kanelli wrote:Women would be free to dress how they like, have freedom of movement, freedom of choice who they marry, a set legal age where they are permitted to marry, and legal rights to have anyone abusing them arrested and charged with the crime.


Check.

kanelli wrote:Muslims would be mixing daily with males and females of other faiths and cultures and therefore exposed to different ideas and ways of living.


Check (Muslim women seen in 'Islamic' clothing, are by definition mixing in society)

kanelli wrote:Would this be acceptable for most devout Muslims?


Yes. Ask them to check (then compare with what the loons think the Muslims would say)

kanelli wrote:Is there some kind of internal pressure that would stop women from using these rights in the society....


Only from Mullahs and their ilk who are our equivalent of Christians who think the universe is 6000 years old etc.

kanelli wrote:Methinks yes.


Therein lies the issue. ;)


I'll see your examples and raise you the example of a Hindu couple who got stoned to death recently in India because they came from different classes:
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/05/hindu-couple-stoned-to-death-in-india-what-if-they-were-muslim/

I'm not going to argue that Hinduism is a barbaric religion for this, but making the point that we shouldn't generalise from the aberrations in society when the reality is that these examples don't represent mainstream/majority of adherants.


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Shafique
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 21, 2010
Kanelli - what is your opinion of what these women in Britain are saying:

http://inspiredbymuhammad.com/womens_rights.php

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 21, 2010
But doesn't the class system permeate all of Indian society, no matter what religion? Stoning is extreme, but I don't think my examples were extreme at all, and they represent quite well what happens to many Muslim women who come from a more strict Muslim background.

Shaf, do you get hassled by family or friends for your school choice or how you are raising your kids, especially your daughters. (Hi to the ladies! They must be so big now!)

Personally, I think moderation is good in every aspect of life, especially religion. :) I have hope that flexibility and openness can still happen while people adhere to their religious values. The point that Hirsi Ali has made is that she doesn't think this is possible with Islam, that it is all or nothing and that every aspect of people's lives from their dress, conduct, the laws they follow - everything - is stipulated in the Quran and everyone is mandated to follow that or they are not truly Muslims. She does see devout Islam as a threat to Western society because the beliefs are incongruous with those beliefs that are the basis of Western societies.

I'm going to check that link and come back to the discussion later. Am working on a course assignment that is due tomorrow. :)
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 21, 2010
kanelli wrote:But doesn't the class system permeate all of Indian society, no matter what religion?


No (Edit - let me say instead, not necessarily - it is a prominent feature in all of India yes.. but).. The caste system is a particular feature of Hinduism. In fact, many Dalits (untouchables) were attracted to Christianity because it freed them of the caste stigma. There isn't a caste system amongst the Indian Muslims (especially the Muslim elite which either came from abroad, or like to believe they did). However, there are still echoes of the caste stigma in India amongst the ex-Hindu communities.

kanelli wrote:Shaf, do you get hassled by family or friends for your school choice or how you are raising your kids, especially your daughters. (Hi to the ladies! They must be so big now!)


No - quite the contrary. Here the Muslim girls actually prefer to send the girls to Catholic schools for their moral stance, and they all compete to get into the best academic schools.

Don't get me wrong, our girls (and young lady) also go to religious classes at the mosque 4 days a week - it's part of the culture here - and did so also in the UK (but fewer nights a week).

The point is that the education system is secular and the religious education is done in free time.

kanelli wrote:Personally, I think moderation is good in every aspect of life, especially religion. :)


This is actually a central tenet of Islam too! Everything in moderation. I'll look up the actual saying of Prophet (about the middle way).


Good luck on your assignment.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 21, 2010
See thats where people like Hirsi are wrong. What people like Hirsi are talking about are extreme deviant societies like the taliban would like to have. This is not proper Islam or Islamic society but they want you to believe that it is and anything other than that is not true.

And if you look deep into these societies its mostly cultural and not Islamic. Like the white kandoora/dishdasha men wear here or the black abayas women wear. No wear in Islam does it say women have to dress like black potato sacks or men have to wear white robes and turbans.

No where does it say women can be forcefully married against there will. In fact quite the opposite. A bride is asked three times to make 100% sure she agrees. Yes many are coerced into accepting by family, peers, society etc etc. But dont blame Islam on it.

The people to be blamed are the people who enforce this kind of ignorant thinking under the guise of Islam. Like I always give the example Dr Zakir Naik gives and is quite fitting. If you give a top performance car to an incompetent driver and he keeps crashing the car. Who is to blame. The car or the driver ?

-- Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:05 pm --

shafique wrote:
This is actually a central tenet of Islam too! Everything in moderation. I'll look up the actual saying of Prophet (about the middle way).



There are a several Hadith from Sahih Bukhari. I wont qoute any from the top of my head for fear of getting them wrong. Infact moderation is a recurring key and theme in many many of them is all aspects of life. It discourages people from becoming too engrossed in religon and forgeting to enjoy this life aswell.
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
I checked out the web link and the site presents Islam in a very good light, but some of the info they give there seems to differ to what the Quranic verses say. According to the Quran, women are said to be worth less than a man etc. but instead the website says men and women are two parts of a whole. (A clever way to hide if a woman is 1/4 and man is 3/4? ;) )

If you read Infidel you can see that Hirsi Ali never experienced Islam how it is presented on that website. (In fact, she had her skull fractured by her Quran teacher and his partner when they came to beat her and her sister for criticizing the way he was teaching.) Hirsi Ali was a translator in the Netherlands dealing with Somali immigrants all the time and most of those women did not experience Islam that way either. Maybe the bigger issue is how Islam is practiced in certain countries? Have they interpreted the Quran incorrectly, or are they imposing cultural views onto their practice of Islam? Are Muslims integrated into the West imposing cultural views onto their practice of Islam? Each side would accuse each other - who is right? Saudi Arabia is the heartland of Islam, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a woman living there. I would be expecting Saudi Arabia to be on forefront of women's rights if they living closest to the beliefs and laws in the Quran as stated on the British website, but as we can see, Saudi Arabia is one of the worst places for women.

So really, the issue I struggle with (and maybe Hirsi Ali should be considering too) is how much is culture and how much is religion? When dealing with immigrants who need to integrate, what do you do if they say you are imposing on their religious beliefs as they have a right to beat their wife and children if they misbehave, and they have a right to keep their women indoors, covered, under educated, and married off young without their consent etc. Can you tell them they are misrepresenting their own religion? These same problems exist to a smaller extent with some home-grown radical Christian communities in parts of the US and Canada, e.g. in Utah and Alberta. The governments have a hard time dealing with these groups because of Western laws about religious and personal freedom, and women and children suffer for it.
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
kanelli - you're close to putting your finger on the core of the issue.

Firstly, if you read what the Quran says about women vs men, you should be able to judge between the various presentations of Islam ('inspired by Muhammad' vs Ali's experiences as a child). Women do inherit half of a man's share - and there are reasons for this related to responsibilities (women have a right over man's wealth and income, men have no right over women's income and wealth for one), but a woman's testimony is equal to a man's. The Quran does not say that the testimony of two women equals one man (refer to the verse in the Quran to check). In all matters spiritual, men and women are completely equal.

The problem is that there are indeed misogynists who misuse Islam. There are those who insist on cultural practices being followed in the name of shariah. Female circumcision, preventing women from working/studying etc etc.

Inspiring Muhammad presents women practicing Islam and being devout in their practice. And yet we have a lawyer (a Barrister) who is explaining how she experiences and practices Islam.

The question therefore becomes - which particular presentation of Islam more represents the religion taught by Muhammad, pbuh. The presentation by practicing Muslims backed up by references from Quran and hadith or that of Ms Ali or others who may have suffered at the hands of Mullahs etc?

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
Thankfully some Muslims are able to choose to ignore the more misogynist teachings of Islam in British society - not the case where Islamic law is fully enforced.

But it's interesting that you are saying that the Koran does not say that there needs to be two women if one man is not available to provide testimony.

But hey, we've already gone done that beaten path.

What is interesting is that Danios agrees with my interpretation - he manages to squirm out by quoting scholars who say that this practice should not be followed for all times.

Hey, I agree with him.

Just like wife beating (which should never be allowed in any time), statutory rape (ditto), polygamy, and viewing women as 'things' or unclean during their period, this misogynist worldview belongs in the trashcan of history.

(Oh, and hasn't it become the standard line to blame all problems within Islam on cultural pracices, as if religion were not a part of culture...?)

But again, I am glad that Muslims choose to ignore the clearly misogynistic elements within Islam. My only problem is when Muslims white wash these (or hide/deny/deflect) unpalatable teachings, such as the hadith I posted earlier about Muhammad and company taking female prisoners-of-war as 'companions' during their conquests against other tribes.
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
Shaf, A good question :) I will look around for more of Hirsi Ali's interviews to see if she discusses whether the version of Islam she was taught and lived under may be tainting her view of the faith as a whole. She is certainly brave for speaking her mind. Her intentions seem good - to improve the situation for Muslim women and children, but I can see that she may also be creating anti-Islamic sentiments that don't help non-Muslims be tolerant of the population of people practicing Islam which does not involve inequality and abuse of women and children. She certainly has people thinking...
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
to eh - Yawn.

You seem to be a bit schizophrenic my young friend. Sometimes you are pontificating that you know more about Islam than Muslims, other times you are joining in with the loon crazee wing and quoting fictional accounts of 'scholars' endorsing rapes of non-Muslims.

Fascinating to see you try and justify loon ideology when faced with real Muslim women telling you how it really is.

Cheers,
Shafique
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
kanelli - Muslim women need to be at the fore-front of over turning misogynistic practices found in many Muslim cultures - and where Ali brings out injustices that have been carried out 'in the name of Islam' then this is indeed a valuable service.

There are many women's rights groups who do have the womens' welfare at heart and who choose to work with Muslim women and Muslims in general to eradicate the real abuses that go on. It is the loons that I object to - where abuse of women by some Muslims is used to discredit a religion.

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Shafique
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
Hey, Danios explains it himself:

It is argued that the women of pre-Islamic Arabia were generally unaware of the intricacies of the business world. Tahir Haddad, an Islamic thinker of the early twentieth century, writes:

The fact that woman lagged behind man in all aspects of life [in the pre-Islamic times] made her less proficient in intellectual and mathematical tasks, especially since at that time she did not get her share of education and culture to prepare her for that…[which was taken into] account when it was decided that a woman’s testimony is worth half that of a man…[in] issue[s]…such as debts. [3]

The lack of business acumen that women of that particular time generally possessed was the reason that a woman’s singular testimony about a contract of debt might be rejected by the common man, resulting in conflicts. The intent of the Quranic verse was after all to prevent infighting between Muslims, as was often the case between creditors and debtors. Therefore, argue these contemporary Muslims, witnesses had to be produced who would be accepted by the common man as being authoritative.

Some contemporary Muslims even argue that such a restriction (i.e. the requirement of two women as witnesses instead of one) would not be applicable if the cause for the restriction (i.e. the lack of business acumen on the part of the woman) was not present. The Islamic cleric Muzammil Siddiqi [4] issued the following fatwa (religious edict):


Another self delivered pwnage....
event horizon
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
As I said, read the Quranic verse - and then compare with the above. (Danios - or in this case the 'thinker he quotes' - is not infallible - but Danios still wipes the floor with Spencer though)

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Shafique
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
event horizon, as Shaf already linked before, there are plenty of passages from the Bible that describe women in a similar way, and modern Christians like to brush those off too. In fact, I think it is welcome to ignore those passages, because it will improve the status and treatment of women in that religion to more closely reflect the current civilized, more egalitarian society than what was found in Biblical times. If one wants to keep female members in the flock, they had better change with the times...

Shaf, you are so right. And I have to be careful about this with my own thinking. The outrageous stories infuriate me, but then I have to realize that I have Muslim friends who do not live or behave like that. It would be a mistake to be so biased about a religion that is practiced in so many ways, as are other religions. Well, I guess on the whole I am biased to some extent about religion anyway, so there you go. :)
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
Flying Dutchman wrote:Didn't read the book. But guess what, she had to leave the country because of death threats. She took them serious after the killing of Theo van Gogh (with whom she produced a short movie critizising Islam) by a Muslim who took the words of Muhammed literal. Obviously Muslims got their way, almost nobody dares to crtitzise Islam anymore in Holland. They managed to change the country (and not for the best IMO).


Obviously Muslims got their way, almost nobody dares to crtitzise Islam anymore in Holland.



we muslims are taking over europe.there is even a shari'a court.what a blessing from ALLAH.alhamdulilah!the jews are traveling back to israel because there bussines collapse long time ago in antwerp diamont sector.That's not new!



Natuurlijk Mr. flying dutchman anders was zij de volgende slachtoffer en de nederlandse overheid kon haar niet langer beschermen.Durf jij eens onze profeet mohammed te bekritiseren in een moslimland? ik denk ook dat jij eraan zult gaan zoals Theo Van Gogh moest je de islam bekritiseren of dacht je dat jij de enige hollander bent op deze forum die de islam haat en toch in een moslimland leeft? Voel je de onderdrukking nu dat je tussen de moslims moet leven! zo voelen wij ons in europa.!maar niet lang meer.we mogen nu mee stemmen en we genieten van de europese rechten en wetten.what tchu think about that !!!!!

HIRSI ALI SCHREEF KORANTEXTEN OP HAAR LICHAAM !!!! EN DIT NOEMEN JULLIE KUNST!!!!! NATUURLIJK IS ZIJ OP DE DODENLIJST VOOR DE MOSLIMS!!!

For the UK-USA peaple here please use translator machine.
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 22, 2010
An exemplary Dutch speaking Moroccan. :lol:

* slams door in his face *
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Re: Women's rights...Read Infidel? Jun 23, 2010
Kudos Mr Belgium Morrocan - whist I don't know what you wrote, you managed to elicit an enlightening response from our Dutch friend.

What he wrote and didn't write is very interesting on many levels. ;)

But seriously FD - what did the guy say that you are slamming the door in his face. :) (Can't be arsed to Google translate)

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Shafique
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Re: Women's Rights...Read Infidel? Jun 23, 2010
Babelfish translation - raw.

"Natural Mr. flying dutchman differently was they the next victim and the Dutch government could its no longer protect. Do dare do you once our prophet criticise mohammed in a Moslem country? I think also that you criticise go such as Theo van Gogh will have you Islam or thought you that you are the only Dutchman on these forum which hates Islam and nevertheless in a Moslem country lives? Oppression now feels you that you must live between the Moslems! thus we feel ourselves in Europe.! but not long meer.we can vote now and we enjoy think about that the European laws and wetten.what tchu!!!!! HIRSI WROTE ALI KORANTEXTEN ON ITS BODY!!!! AND THIS CALLS YOU ART!!!!! OF COURSE SHE IS ON THE DEAD LIST FOR THE MOSLEMS!!! "

Is FlyingDutchman actually living in the UAE?

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Theo Van Gogh should never have been threatened with death. It is called free speech, a very important value in Western society. If you are going to live in the West then you need to get used to the right to free speech. It should be used responsibly, but sometimes it isn't. In any case, one certainly DOES NOT KILL to retaliate for free speech that they don't like.

Submission was inspired by Ali's own experiences living in Africa and Saudi Arabia and doing translating work in the Netherlands. Let's take the story in Submission of the Muslim woman who was raped several times by her own uncle and was pregnant. If some fanatical Muslims with death on their lips had that uncle standing in front of them and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who would they kill? Guaranteed it would be Ayaan Hirsi Ali. They'd say it was that girls own fault that she let her uncle rape her, and it should be kept quiet so as not to dishonour her family's name. In fact, let's bump her off in an honour killing to remove the problem completely. She was the evil one who tempted her own uncle into sin! Prove me wrong, show me all the examples of how male family members are murdered for abusing women and children in their families. No, no, of course it is Ayaan Hirsi Ali who is the problem, not how some are practicing Islam! Fanatics can choose to get worked up into a bloodthirst over symbolic images of verses of the Quran written on an actresses body, but I think the women and children who are being abused falsely under the name of Islam deserve the attention. That is what Ayaan Hirsi Ali was trying to expose. Think how painful it is for her to lose her faith because of her negative experiences.
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