Islamic Christianophobia

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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Feb 28, 2010
It appears the pot is calling the kettle black :)

So, you say that there was no religous strife in the past, and I agreed with this assessment - noting that there was significant violence and injustice after missionaries arrived in Sub-saharan Africa with their colonial brothers:

shafique wrote:Oh, sheikh - you are right. Sub-saharan Africa was indeed doing quite well up until the missionaries and colonialists arrived. But wasn't that where there was Apartheid too? And didn't the Boers (some of them at least) use the Bible to justify the racist laws?

Good points sheikh.

As for religious and tribal strife - the Muslims are victims as well. But hey, why let that fact distract from your excellent efforts of getting people to read the Quran and study Islam?


But I have to admit I was confused by the Sunday statement that the sheikh was now unaware of any inter-religious strife.

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Shafique

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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Feb 28, 2010
noting that there was significant violence and injustice after missionaries arrived in Sub-saharan Africa with their colonial brothers:


I understand that - but the European colonists probably arrived well more than a century ago so my point that the sectarian conflict between the natives as being recent would not have applied.

Further, I am referring to actual sectarian conflict - as we are seeing in Iraq and Pakistan and Lebanon. I doubt any of that type of conflict took place in Africa until very recently, which appeared to have started in Nigeria a few years ago and seems to have spread.

As for European colonists, we can see who destroyed/conquered more African civilizations - the Europeans or Islamic Jihad.
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
event horizon wrote:As for European colonists, we can see who destroyed/conquered more African civilizations - the Europeans or Islamic Jihad.


Ok - over to you then, I'd be interested in seeing how you count the numbers of civilsations conquered by Islamic armies and European colonials and which is greater.

I'd guess that the rape of Africa under European colonisation is worse than the benign Islamic rule of northern Africa, but I haven't really compared the two before. I therefore look forward to your comparisons and trust this isn't another 'AMNT' statement from you.

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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
Here's a list of African civilizations that wikipedia provides:

* African Civilizations

* Axum
* Ghana Empire
* Mali Empire
* Songhai Empire
* Great Zimbabwe
* Kanem Empire
* Bornu Empire
* Kingdom of Kongo


We can see which of these civilizations declined due to Islamic warfare or due to European colonialism.
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
Ok - go for it.

As I said, I haven't made the comparisons myself - so I am most interested in your research and counts. Just let us know how each civilisation ended when you are making your tally.

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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
The Axum empire seems to have fallen as a result of the Jihad conquests that limited trade between her and her traditional trading partners.:

It is believed it began a long slow decline after the 7th century due partly to Islamic groups contesting trade routes. Eventually Aksum was cut off from its principal markets in Alexandria, Byzantium and Southern Europe and its trade share was captured by Arab traders of the era. The Kingdom of Aksum also quarreled with Islamic groups over religion. Eventually the people of Aksum were forced south and their civilization declined. As the kingdom's power declined so did the influence of the city, which is believed to have lost population in the decline similar to Rome and other cities thrust away from the flow of world events. The last known (nominal) king to reign was crowned ca. 10th century, but the kingdom's influence and power ended long before that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axum#Axum_and_Islam

The Ghana empire once again seems to have declined when conflict between her and the Almoravid empire erupted:

The empire began struggling after reaching its apex in the early 11th century. By 1059, the population density around the empire's leading cities was seriously overtaxing the region. The Sahara desert was expanding southward, threatening food supplies. While imported food was sufficient to support the population when income from trade was high, when trade faltered, this system also broke down. It has been often supposed that Ghana came under siege by the Almoravids in 1062 under the command of Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar in an attempt to gain control of the coveted Saharan trade routes. A war was waged, said to have been justified as an act of conversion through military arms (lesser jihad) in which they were eventually successful in subduing Ghana by 1067, despite resistance by Ghana Bassi and his successor Ghana Tunka Manin. This view however, has seen general scrutiny and is disputed by some scholars as a distortion of primary sources.[5] Conrad and Fisher (1982) suggested that the notion of any Almoravid military conquest at its core is merely perpetuated folklore, while others such as Dierk Lange attributed the decline of ancient Ghana to numerous unrelated factors, only one of which can be likely attributable to internal dynastic struggles that were instigated by Almoravid influence and Islamic pressures, but devoid of any military conversion and conquest.[6]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_Empire#Decline

The Mali empire is said to have declined after a king died and his three sons were left to quarrel over who should rule the empire. Additionally, (and once again) Jihadists seem to have attacked the Mali because they were not 'Islamic' enough?

Collapse
Mali Empire and surrounding states, c. 1625.

The mansa’s defeat actually won Manden the respect of Morocco and may have saved it from Songhai’s fate. It would be the Mandinka themselves that would cause the final destruction of the empire. Around 1610, Mahmud IV died. Oral tradition states that he had three sons who fought over Manden's remains. No single person ever ruled Manden after Mahmuud IV's death, resulting in the end of the Mali Empire.[56]
[edit] Manden Divided

The old core of the empire was divided into three spheres of influence. Kangaba, the de facto capital of Manden since the time of the last emperor, became the capital of the northern sphere. The Joma area, governed from Siguiri, controlled the central region, which encompassed Niani. Hamana or Amana, southwest of Joma, became the southern sphere with its capital at Kouroussa in modern Guinea.[56] Each ruler used the title of mansa, but their authority only extended as far as their own sphere of influence. Despite this disunity in the realm, the realm remained under Mandinka control into the mid 17th century. The three states warred on each other as much if not more than they did against outsiders, but rivalries generally stopped when faced with invasion. This trend would continue into colonial times against Tukulor enemies from the west.[57]
[edit] The Bamana Jihad

Then, in 1630, the Bamana of Djenné declared their version of holy war on all Muslim powers in present day Mali.[58] They targeted Moroccan Pashas still in Timbuktu and the mansas of Manden. In 1645, the Bamana attacked Manden seizing both banks of the Niger right up to Niani.[58] This campaign gutted Manden and destroyed any hope of the three mansas cooperating to free their land. The only Mandinka power spared from the campaign is Kangaba.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire#Collapse

The Songhai empire seems to have fallen due to infighting and neighbors seeking to win territory:

Following Dauoud's death, a civil war of succession weakened the Empire, leading Saadi Sultan Ahmad I al-Mansur Saadi of Morocco to dispatch an invasion force under the eunuch Judar Pasha. Judar Pasha was a Spaniard by birth, but had been captured as an infant and educated at the Saadi court. After a cross-Saharan march, Judar's forces razed the salt mines at Taghaza and moved on Gao; when Askia Ishaq II (r. 1588-1591) met Judar at the 1591 Battle of Tondibi, Songhai forces were routed by a cattle stampede triggered by the Saadi's gunpowder weapons despite vastly superior numbers. Judar proceeded to sack Gao, Timbuktu, and Djenné, destroying the Songhai as a regional power. Governing so vast an empire proved too much for the Saadi dynasty, and they soon relinquished control of the region, letting it splinter into dozens of smaller kingdoms.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songhai_Empire#Decline

Great Zimbabwe fell for reasons that are not entirely known, but it might have been due to the usual suspects, disruption in trade, famine and water shortages:

Decline

Causes for the decline and ultimate abandonment of the site have been suggested as due to a decline in trade compared to sites further north, political instability and famine and water shortages enduced by climatic change.[11][22] The Mutapa state arose in the fifteenth century from the northward expansion of the Great ZImbabwe tradition.[23] Great Zimbabwe also predates the Khami and Nyanga cultures.


The Kanem empire seems to have fallen for reasons that are not explicitly stated. Regardless, their fall occurred before the process of European colonization began.

The Bornu empire also fell due to Jihad as devout Muslims launched a Jihad against Muslims whom they viewed were irreligious - similar to the Jihads launched in regions such as Somalia and Iraq and Pakistan today against 'secular' governments or insufficiently Islamic rulers, etc:

Decline and Fall

The administrative reforms and military brilliance of Aluma sustained the empire until the mid-1600s, when its power began to fade. By the late 1700s, Bornu rule extended only westward, into the land of the Hausa of modern Nigeria. The empire was still ruled by the mai who was advised by his councilors (kokenawa) in the state council or "nokena".[2]
[edit] Fulani Jihad

Around that time, Fulani people, invading from the west, were able to make major inroads into Bornu. By the early 19th century, Kanem-Bornu was clearly an empire in decline, and in 1808 Fulani warriors conquered Ngazargamu. Usman dan Fodio led the Fulani thrust and proclaimed a holy war (the Fulani War) on the allegedly irreligious Muslims of the area. His campaign eventually affected Kanem-Bornu and inspired a trend toward Islamic orthodoxy, but a Muslim scholar turned statesman, Muhammad al-Amin al-Kanemi, contested the Fulani advance.
[edit] Muhammad al-Kanem

Muhammad al-Amin al-Kanemi was a Muslim scholar and non-Sayfawa commander who had put together an alliance of Shuwa Arabs, Kanembu, and other seminomadic peoples. He eventually built in 1814 a capital at Kukawa (in present-day Nigeria). Sayfawa mais remained titular monarchs until 1846. In that year, the last mai, in league with the Ouaddai Empire, precipitated a civil war. It was at that point that Kanemi's son, Umar, became king, thus ending one of the longest dynastic reigns in regional history.
[edit] Post Sayfawa

Although the dynasty ended, the kingdom of Kanem-Bornu survived. Umar eschewed the title mai for the simpler designation shehu (from the Arabic shaykh), could not match his father's vitality and gradually allowed the kingdom to be ruled by advisers (wazirs). Bornu began a further decline as a result of administrative disorganization, regional particularism, and attacks by the militant Ouaddai Empire to the east. The decline continued under Umar's sons. In 1893, Rabih az-Zubayr leading an invading army from eastern Sudan, conquered Bornu.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornu_Empi ... e_and_Fall

The Kingdom of Kongo appears to have been the only sub-Saharan African civilization that was taken over by European powers - the article says the Portuguese took over the Kingdom and this, I am assuming, spelled the death for this African civilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of ... ristianity

So, it looks like one in nine of Africa's sub-Saharan civilizations were erased by European powers and the rest fell because of Islamic Jihad warfare or infighting or for other reasons.

As for the rape of Africa, that's new to me. Are you referring to the slave trade that took place in East Africa that resulted in the enslavement of some 10 or so million individuals and was abolished by the Europeans (although slavery really continues in Muslim African nations to this day - where in one Muslim African nation, one quarter of the population is a slave)?

Or perhaps you're referring to the rape of European coasts by Muslim African (Berber, Arab) pirates that resulted in the enslavement of over one and half million Europeans? Or perhaps you're thinking of West Africa, where slavery was already rampant and slaves were simply sold to the Europeans by Muslims who enslaved pagan tribes people?
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
By rape of Africa I was referring to the carve up of Africa by colonial powers and the raping of the natural resources. The Atlantic slave trade took place before this and was mostly limited to coastal areas where the slavers bought slaves off African slave merchants. This was bad enough (both morally and economically) but was dwarfed by the rape of Africa that was colonialisation.

So, we have a count of 9 civilisations that were erased/conquered by Europeans.

Axum - from your description it seems it was a victim of economics, not conquest. So 0 on the count so far - or let's keep a separate 'generous' count of 1)

Ghana - again, the evidence seems sketchy from your quote - but ok, let's add another to the generous count - so we're up to 2.

Mali - can't even give a generous count of 1 here - the empire crumbled from within with sons quarelling. So, generous count remains at 2.

Songhai, Great Zimbabwe, Kanem - again, internal collapse. Count remains at 0 (or 2 if we are generous)

Bornu - your quote says it continued after Islamic rule and the rule ended in 1846. So, no collapse due to Islamic rule - count remains at 0 or 2.

Kongo - I agree, this is one for the Christians/Europeans.


But, I have to admit - I'm a bit confused - where did you get the count of 9 erased by Europeans then? Were you counting Mali etc? (Sorry, it might be a bit late - but I thought you'd be counting the civilisations 'erased' by Islamic conquerers vs those erased by European colonisation).

From your list, it seems you've only listed one erased by Europeans (Kongo) and zero (or perhaps 2) by Islamic conquerers. I must be missing something - you know I like to see the numbers ;)

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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
But, I have to admit - I'm a bit confused - where did you get the count of 9 erased by Europeans then?


I dunno - care to quote me where I did say this?
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Mar 01, 2010
My bad, I misread your 'one in 9' as 9.

See, I did ask for clarification - and you gave it.

So, we have one civilisation we agree was ended by European rule. However, is this really the sum total of the devastation that was colonialisation of sub-saharan Africa?

The two examples of possible civilisations ended by Islamic rule seem pretty flimsy - both were on their last legs it seems (judging by your cut and pastes). And for the earlier Islamic conquests of northern Africa - the Africans took it in their stride and continued with their civilisations afterwards and didn't seem to be adversely affected by Islamic rule (which can't be said for European colonisation).

1 vs 0 (or 2 if we're generous) is an interesting statistic.

You may also want to look at the Ndbele in Zimbabwe - conquered by Rhodes (actually he conned the ruler, then subjugated them), Shona also in Zimbabwe, in Malawi there are about 40 odd tribes etc etc. I'll let you decide whether these should be added to the Kongo.

Thanks for listing the African civilisations though.

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Shafique
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 10, 2010
Well, it doesn't look like things have improved in Africa as of late:

ABUJA, NIGERIA (Worthy News)-- Christians in two states of Nigeria were mourning Wednesday, July 7, the killings of at least eight Christian believers, after Muslim militants reportedly attacked several villages.


http://www.worthynews.com/8499-eight-ch ... im-attacks

(But don't worry, I'm sure the folks at Loonwatch will keep us informed of anti-Christian attacks......)
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 10, 2010
Hey, glad to see you've picked yourself up off the floor after finding out that 73% of your fellow religious republicans reject science's explanation of creation and believe we were all created 6000 years ago!

But we're still waiting to hear your scientific explanation of the Biblical claim that the sun stopped in the sky for a whole day.

But thanks for reminding us that there is still sectarian strife going on in Africa.

But we already know you have a hate-filled view of these conflicts, because you've now come out and explicitly shown your vitriolic, pus-filled views towards Muslims:

event horizon wrote:Peace with Islam and Muslims is impossible. The only time Muslims seek peace is when they need to reload.


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Shafique
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 10, 2010
Hey, I'm simply stating a fact - the Koran forbids Muslims with making peace with non-believers if the Muslims are more powerful.

Isn't it interesting when loons/Muslims are secretly elated whenever their delusions are confirmed by actual events?

What's the matter - highlighting Muslim injustices against non-believers make it hard to drop the victim card?
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 10, 2010
Loon versions of history and loon interpretations of Islam are fascinating - but understandable given the hate they feel towards Muslims.

However, the claims that the Bible is scientifically accurate is being shown to be nothing more than empty words when presented with actual quotes from the Bible concerning the sun stopping in the sky for a day.

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Shafique
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 10, 2010
shafique wrote:Loon versions of history


Abu Bakr is a loon?
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 10, 2010
^Perhaps in loonville he is? (You'll have to check what the likes of Bob 'the huckster' Spencer has taught young eh about this)

As I said, loon versions of history are fascinating - but I'm still holding out for eh's scientific explanation of the Biblical claim that the sun stopped in the sky for a whole day.

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Shafique
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Re: Islamic Christianophobia Jul 18, 2010
Not a good day to be a Christian in Nigeria.

At least eight people have been hacked to death in a predominantly Christian village in central Nigeria, an army spokesman has said.

Seven houses and a church were burned in Mazzah village, near the city of Jos, the scene of previous acts of sectarian violence.

"Seven people were killed instantly with machetes while three others were seriously injured. One of them died on the way to the hospital," Lieutenant Colonel Kingsley Umoh told the AFP news agency.

He said ethnic Fulani Muslims entered the village and began firing into the air to lure sleeping residents outside their homes early on Saturday morning.

Residents of Mazzah told the Reuters news agency that many of the victims were the family of a priest, including his wife, two children and grandson. Reverend Nuhu Dawat himself survived the attack.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 77497.html

When will the Leftist loons speak out against Christianophobia ???

Or is only type of 'Phobia' that merits mentioning and condemnation ???
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