Yes, but where was HP...

C0NC0RD Certainly a terrible tragedy and travesty in Pakistan...And things will probably get worse now. But I just thought about HP's whereabouts at the moment. Coincidence 8) :shock: BabyDoll I hate reading news like that. Urgh !!! BabyDoll Benazir Bhutto was born on June 21, 1953, into a wealthy landowning family. Her father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, founded the Pakistan People's Party (PPP) and was president and later prime minister of Pakistan from 1971 to 1977. After gaining degrees in politics at Harvard and Oxford universities, she returned to Pakistan in 1977, just before the military seized power from her father. She inherited the leadership of the PPP after her father's execution in 1979. First voted in as prime minister in 1988, Bhutto was sacked by the then-president on corruption charges in 1990. She took power again in 1993 after her successor, Nawaz Sharif, was forced to resign after a row with the president. Bhutto was no more successful in her second spell as prime minister, and Sharif was back in power by 1996. In 1999, both Bhutto and her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, were sentenced on charges of taking kickbacks from a Swiss company hired to fight customs fraud. A higher court later overturned the conviction as biased. Geneva lawyers for Bhutto said last month they had lodged an appeal in a Swiss inquiry into alleged money laundering by Bhutto and her husband. The motion filed with Geneva's criminal appeals court could lead to hearings in the long-running case, but not before early 2008. Bhutto returned to Pakistan in October from eight years of self-imposed exile after Musharraf, with whom she had been negotiating over Pakistan's transition to civilian-led democracy, granted her protection from prosecution in old corruption cases. A blast in her reception rally killed nearly 140 people. BabyDoll BTW someone enlighten me, what was her contribution to the country? Briefly from what I read, she was but all corrupted. Did I miss something? ^ian^ Like with any 'popular' leader she united the country and used her popularity to rally people together... at least.. that's what it will say in her obituary. To be honest, this is seriously bad news for Pakistan... I would say civil war is on the cards now... not that it would be that much different to what exists in many parts of Pakistan now. Can't believe people have come out and said Al Quaeda did it... it could have been anyone of 100+ political factions. After all, Al Quaeda didn't kill Bob Woolmer. rvp_legend Agree with Ian. There have been groups trying to kill Bhutto(father and daughter) long before al qaeda , but i guess blaming al qaeda is the easy way out. If anyone gains, its Musharraf... with Nawaz Shariff also out of the way he continues his rule. Im not so sure things will get worse in that country. Remember, Bhutto was self exiled for 8 years and only recently made a return. Her support is not as large as it used to be. The situation here is one which is similar to what happened in the 70's and the creation of Bangladesh. The Military tried to establish their rule, but the people faught back... political and influential figures got killed by mysterious groups or jailed. Will be interesting to see if the people of Pakistan react. St.Lucifer

• rvp_legend wrote:
  Agree with Ian.
  There have been groups trying to kill Bhutto(father and daughter) long before al qaeda , but i guess blaming al qaeda is the easy way out.
  If anyone gains, its Musharraf... with Nawaz Shariff also out of the way he continues his rule.
  Im not so sure things will get worse in that country. Remember, Bhutto was self exiled for 8 years and only recently made a return. Her support is not as large as it used to be.
  The situation here is one which is similar to what happened in the 70's and the creation of Bangladesh . The Military tried to establish their rule, but the people faught back... political and influential figures got killed by mysterious groups or jailed.
  
  Will be interesting to see if the people of Pakistan react.

Sad.. that country is gone crackers..thanks to religious fundamentalism. rvp_legend

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  Sad.. that country is gone crackers..thanks to religious fundamentalism.

I take a completely different viewpoint. That region has seen much more hardline religious days under certain moghuls.
The current situation, is made worse by the fact that Pakistans military has been in rule or held huge influence, since independance. The Military owns vast amounts of lands and business in the country and is therefore a major institution.
It was bound to be tested at one point due to the rise of a rival discourse. The civilian attempts of government is one, and religion is another.
Right now, its the civilian attempts to governise which is challenging the military. And i have no doubt the Military will win, as Musharaf enjoys much support from the developed nations.
The sad thing is, the hardline extremists will have more ammunition after the civilian attempts fail, and that is when things will get bad in that country.
Solution? the place needs to rid of the Military. Its lost a large chuck of its original country due to it and is constantly warring with other parts.
Bring in civilian rule and the people remain moderate. BabyDoll Quite an interesting post RVP. For eg, the Military still owns a large chunk of Vietnam, China, Russia and the list goes on. Military empowerment = communism. Although I dont disagree with military regime, you do need a pro business leader for prosperity. St.Lucifer HP is safe.. but he's escaping the counrty faster than planned ..

1 Dubai Jobs .com The First Place to Find a Job in Dubai
St.Lucifer

• rvp_legend wrote:
  
  • St.Lucifer wrote:
    
    Sad.. that country is gone crackers..thanks to religious fundamentalism.
  
  I take a completely different viewpoint. That region has seen much more hardline religious days under certain moghuls.
  The current situation, is made worse by the fact that Pakistans military has been in rule or held huge influence, since independance. The Military owns vast amounts of lands and business in the country and is therefore a major institution.
  It was bound to be tested at one point due to the rise of a rival discourse. The civilian attempts of government is one, and religion is another.
  Right now, its the civilian attempts to governise which is challenging the military. And i have no doubt the Military will win, as Musharaf enjoys much support from the developed nations.
  The sad thing is, the hardline extremists will have more ammunition after the civilian attempts fail, and that is when things will get bad in that country.
  Solution? the place needs to rid of the Military. Its lost a large chuck of its original country due to it and is constantly warring with other parts.
  Bring in civilian rule and the people remain moderate.

Hmm there are many views to the prevailing state in Pakisthan. Pakistan always had huge religious influence in its national policies. The main reasons for the seperation and formation of the country itself was the religion.
I dont agree with your views about the civilian rebellious uproar, there are many mixed factions in Pakistani politics and public.
The one causing most of the troubles, riots, shoot outs are the gullible, rural folks who are indoctrinated and converted as terrorists. The taliban is very much there even in the most common of pakistani people. And we all know how they love the US and their operations with Pakistan and the westernisation of the country.This is where the religion comes into picture..
Another influential section of the society, Pakistani business men, working class people - want their leaders to be at the PM's post for their own interests..and country's growth.. though they r also fighting the regime through mass agitations, rallies and are very vocal they dont resort to bombing
The other part, the intellectual, western educated pakistani's journos, writers, docs etc are more interested in taking the country forward through a united leadership... and are mostly not involved directly in anyway. rvp_legend

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  Pakistan always had huge religious influence in its national policies. The main reasons for the seperation and formation of the country itself was the religion.

While the separation from the British Raj borders of defined India was based on religious lines, it was quickly established that religion played a very small part in the governance of Pakistan shortly after independance.
One must remember east and west Pakistan were both of the same faith group. Yet the country split very shortly after, due to the military rule.

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  I dont agree with your views about the civilian rebellious uproar, there are many mixed factions in Pakistani politics and public.
  The one causing most of the troubles, riots, shoot outs are the gullible, rural folks who are indoctrinated and converted as terrorists.

I cant remember making any views on civilian uproar? my point it that the dominant discourse in Pakistani politics is the Military. Civilian is the next biggest and religion, smallest - although growing as the civilian attempts fail.
so what im trying to argue is that the current turmoil is the military not wanting to give in power to any civilian government.

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  The taliban is very much there even in the most common of pakistani people. And we all know how they love the US and their operations with Pakistan and the westernisation of the country.This is where the religion comes into picture..
  

Agreed that the Taleiban have influence in Pakistan, but thats mostly in the northern areas where they have ethnic ties. These rural populations are small in number. I think there is a common misconception about what the rural people want. They have their own autonomous borders. They hate the US and Pakistan, not due to modernisation, but more due to constant war and broken truces by the military.
Then there are the extremists (who i believe are a separate group) who try to use this to their advantage. As convenience Musharaff likes to put them all in the same bracket.

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  Another influential section of the society, Pakistani business men, working class people - want their leaders to be at the PM's post for their own interests..and country's growth.. though they r also fighting the regime through mass agitations, rallies and are very vocal they dont resort to bombing
  The other part, the intellectual, western educated pakistani's journos, writers, docs etc are more interested in taking the country forward through a united leadership... and are mostly not involved directly in anyway.

This is the civilian discourse i make reference to, but unfortunatly this process is failiing. Judiciary can be overrulled by military....
So im not saying you are wrong, my opinion is just that the Military , more than religion is the reason why that country keeps suffering. There seems to be totalitarian rule which will still remain for a while. rvp_legend

• BabyDoll wrote:
  Quite an interesting post RVP. For eg, the Military still owns a large chunk of Vietnam, China, Russia and the list goes on. Military empowerment = communism. Although I dont disagree with military regime, you do need a pro business leader for prosperity.

I believe a civilian body is vital, if only to keep a nation moderate! For me, a government is something represented by the people. So therefore that shouldnt be the military, as they are not ordinary folks. rudeboy can someone tell me y the USA is not doing anything to make Musharif step down? Y? hmmm maybe he is a puppet. Ok fine USA tommorow attacks Pakistan (which i dont think will happen because Pakistan is not Afghanistan nor is it Iraq. It has a army, it has a navy and it even has a airfoce with F/16 supplied by the Americans.) and makes Musharif step down and instead of him they install someone else as the Prime Minister ( a bit like what they have done in Afghanistan). If they do that NO1 will follow that guy. Y? Because that guy would be considered as another USA puppet. and thats when you will get a Civil War just like Afghanistan and Iraq. What is happening in Pakistan, Iraq and Afghanistan is happening because of USAs foreign policy. If USA changed its foreign policy and leaders especially in the Muslim countries installed were to step down then I am sure the world would be a safer world to live in. Islamic extremists is on the rise because of Usas foreign policy. And a civil war would not be happening in Pakistan. Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan Pakistan has a well established Army and they will restore peace. I do not support the ARMY rule neither do I support any other politician as all of them are corrupt. But hey do remember that there is a General leading Pakistan thats because of USA ;). rudeboy

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  • rvp_legend wrote:
    Agree with Ian.
    There have been groups trying to kill Bhutto(father and daughter) long before al qaeda , but i guess blaming al qaeda is the easy way out.
    If anyone gains, its Musharraf... with Nawaz Shariff also out of the way he continues his rule.
    Im not so sure things will get worse in that country. Remember, Bhutto was self exiled for 8 years and only recently made a return. Her support is not as large as it used to be.
    The situation here is one which is similar to what happened in the 70's and the creation of Bangladesh . The Military tried to establish their rule, but the people faught back... political and influential figures got killed by mysterious groups or jailed.
    
    Will be interesting to see if the people of Pakistan react.
  
  Sad.. that country is gone crackers..thanks to religious fundamentalism.

saint lucy its abit sad init that when the Hindus torched some Musis in the Riots of Gujurat that India went BONKERS.hmmm you can thank HINDU FUNDAMETALISM cant u mate ;). St.Lucifer

• rvp_legend wrote:
  
  • St.Lucifer wrote:
    
    Pakistan always had huge religious influence in its national policies. The main reasons for the seperation and formation of the country itself was the religion.
  
  While the separation from the British Raj borders of defined India was based on religious lines, it was quickly established that religion played a very small part in the governance of Pakistan shortly after independance.
  One must remember east and west Pakistan were both of the same faith group. Yet the country split very shortly after, due to the military rule.
  
  • St.Lucifer wrote:
    
    I dont agree with your views about the civilian rebellious uproar, there are many mixed factions in Pakistani politics and public.
    The one causing most of the troubles, riots, shoot outs are the gullible, rural folks who are indoctrinated and converted as terrorists.
  
  I cant remember making any views on civilian uproar? my point it that the dominant discourse in Pakistani politics is the Military. Civilian is the next biggest and religion, smallest - although growing as the civilian attempts fail.
  so what im trying to argue is that the current turmoil is the military not wanting to give in power to any civilian government.
  
  • St.Lucifer wrote:
    
    The taliban is very much there even in the most common of pakistani people. And we all know how they love the US and their operations with Pakistan and the westernisation of the country.This is where the religion comes into picture..
    
  
  Agreed that the Taleiban have influence in Pakistan, but thats mostly in the northern areas where they have ethnic ties. These rural populations are small in number. I think there is a common misconception about what the rural people want. They have their own autonomous borders. They hate the US and Pakistan, not due to modernisation, but more due to constant war and broken truces by the military.
  Then there are the extremists (who i believe are a separate group) who try to use this to their advantage. As convenience Musharaff likes to put them all in the same bracket.
  
  • St.Lucifer wrote:
    
    Another influential section of the society, Pakistani business men, working class people - want their leaders to be at the PM's post for their own interests..and country's growth.. though they r also fighting the regime through mass agitations, rallies and are very vocal they dont resort to bombing
    The other part, the intellectual, western educated pakistani's journos, writers, docs etc are more interested in taking the country forward through a united leadership... and are mostly not involved directly in anyway.
  
  This is the civilian discourse i make reference to, but unfortunatly this process is failiing. Judiciary can be overrulled by military....
  So im not saying you are wrong, my opinion is just that the Military , more than religion is the reason why that country keeps suffering. There seems to be totalitarian rule which will still remain for a while.

Good reply. You may sure have more authoritative knowledge w.r.t to the issue and political state in pakistan is now. My views are ofcourse based more on general perception, friends, general talks with taxi guys and papers. Therefore, I agree with your views.
Having said that, I differ from you on one account, I think religion plays a different role.. the one that of national upbringing.. somewhere in the process of building the nation, the religious extremist surely played a bloody dirty role.. one that created hatred among differnt sects and a lot of hardliners in the society.If you look at it, India has more muslim's(law abiding, living by prophets words, followers) than pakistan but thanks to their largely moderate views and to some great human beings in the islamic community, Indian muslims are very much different. But in Pakistan, its more hardcore..
and that to me is also a very important factor in its struggle along with financial issues, broken boundaries, internal fight for geographically rich areas(balouch), locations of strategic interest(J&K, Afghan border) and dirty politics of many of its leaders reaching its pinnacle through the mushraff era. rudeboy

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  
  • rvp_legend wrote:
    
    • St.Lucifer wrote:
      
      Pakistan always had huge religious influence in its national policies. The main reasons for the seperation and formation of the country itself was the religion.
    
    While the separation from the British Raj borders of defined India was based on religious lines, it was quickly established that religion played a very small part in the governance of Pakistan shortly after independance.
    One must remember east and west Pakistan were both of the same faith group. Yet the country split very shortly after, due to the military rule.
    
    • St.Lucifer wrote:
      
      I dont agree with your views about the civilian rebellious uproar, there are many mixed factions in Pakistani politics and public.
      The one causing most of the troubles, riots, shoot outs are the gullible, rural folks who are indoctrinated and converted as terrorists.
    
    I cant remember making any views on civilian uproar? my point it that the dominant discourse in Pakistani politics is the Military. Civilian is the next biggest and religion, smallest - although growing as the civilian attempts fail.
    so what im trying to argue is that the current turmoil is the military not wanting to give in power to any civilian government.
    
    • St.Lucifer wrote:
      
      The taliban is very much there even in the most common of pakistani people. And we all know how they love the US and their operations with Pakistan and the westernisation of the country.This is where the religion comes into picture..
      
    
    Agreed that the Taleiban have influence in Pakistan, but thats mostly in the northern areas where they have ethnic ties. These rural populations are small in number. I think there is a common misconception about what the rural people want. They have their own autonomous borders. They hate the US and Pakistan, not due to modernisation, but more due to constant war and broken truces by the military.
    Then there are the extremists (who i believe are a separate group) who try to use this to their advantage. As convenience Musharaff likes to put them all in the same bracket.
    
    • St.Lucifer wrote:
      
      Another influential section of the society, Pakistani business men, working class people - want their leaders to be at the PM's post for their own interests..and country's growth.. though they r also fighting the regime through mass agitations, rallies and are very vocal they dont resort to bombing
      The other part, the intellectual, western educated pakistani's journos, writers, docs etc are more interested in taking the country forward through a united leadership... and are mostly not involved directly in anyway.
    
    This is the civilian discourse i make reference to, but unfortunatly this process is failiing. Judiciary can be overrulled by military....
    So im not saying you are wrong, my opinion is just that the Military , more than religion is the reason why that country keeps suffering. There seems to be totalitarian rule which will still remain for a while.
  
  Good reply. You may sure have more authoritative knowledge w.r.t to the issue and political state in pakistan is now. My views are ofcourse based more on general perception, friends, general talks with taxi guys and papers. Therefore, I agree with your views.
  Having said that, I differ from you on one account, I think religion plays a different role.. the one that of national upbringing.. somewhere in the process of building the nation, the religious extremist surely played a bloody dirty role.. one that created hatred among differnt sects and a lot of hardliners in the society.If you look at it, India has more muslim's(law abiding, living by prophets words, followers) than pakistan but thanks to their largely moderate views and to some great human beings in the islamic community, Indian muslims are very much different. But in Pakistan, its more hardcore..
  and that to me is also a very important factor in its struggle along with financial issues, broken boundaries, internal fight for geographically rich areas(balouch), locations of strategic interest(J&K, Afghan border) and dirty politics of many of its leaders reaching its pinnacle through the mushraff era.

sorry lucy but after reading ur thread and other threads i am disgusted to find out that you have a problem with Islam. its ok ur entitled to your opinion.
Yes india does have more muslims then pakistan does. But do know that most of the muslims in India are prosecuted in India for being MUSLIMS?? Yeh they are not EXTREMISTs maybe because most of the Indian Muslims have basic education and probably have a good job to support themselves and their family. Do Pakistanis have this? NO. They do not have basic education they do not have good jobs and probably do not have the "facilities" the Indian MUslims do ;).
So no ITS NOT the religion, its not ISLAM. Its the basic needs which pakis dont have thats y they tend to join extremists who give them a good salary to join their armed forces. Do you know how much taliban pays to its soilders? do you know how much these extremists pay? Do you know how much Hamas pays to suicide bombers family? THese groups offer a good salary. A salary they cant get from a job in Pakistan.
Extremism is on the rise because of USA and the Puppets they have installed across muslim world. In third countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan there are Leaders being installed by the USA government. All these leaders abuse their power and the poor ppl are becoming more poor and the rich richer day by day.
Lucy you want to explain the assasination of Indira Gandhi by Sikhs? Wouldnt u say that Sikh Extremist is in India? Wouldnt you say the Sikhism played a HUGE part in the killing of Gandhi? Wouldnt u say the killing was because of RELIGION?
Pakistan and India are similiar. There are extremism in both countries. Islam in Pakistan and Hindu in India. And we saw abit of Hindu extremist in Gujuraat Riots, in Nepal, Bangladesh and even Sri Lanka.
I am not saying pakistanis are perfect. No1 is. Yes I admit Islamic extremism exists but thats only because of USAs foreign policy especially with the 3rd world countries.
And Lucy mate there are Islamic Extremists even in India.
There is the NDF militant Islamist organisation in Kerala, India established in 1993, claiming to "focus on socio-enonomical issues of minorities".
Hmmm hey LUCY mate I thought muslims from India were "law abiding, living by prophets words, followers" but hey it turns out India has its own Islamic "terroists" lol
Hey I am sorry lucy how can we forget the Majority of the Hindus. They really are the law abiding and peacful ppl arent they. hmmm maybe we should ask the Hindutva or the BJP what they got up to in Bombay riots and the 1993 Mumbai Bombings. Hell they are so peaceful bunch of lads that the government of India has decided to give them seats in the Indian Parliament. hmmmm lol you want to explain religion to me now?
I dont have problems with any religions of the world and have friends across the world from various religions as I am sure you do Lucy. We all are not perfect and there are some black sheeps amongst us so next time Lucy u want to say that Islam is the source of Extremism not only in Pakistan but also in India I would think twice mate ;). St.Lucifer Well to keep it short.. .I've a problem with all the religions or the people who bake it and make it a tool to promote violence..
But this thread and the discussion started on Pakistani political scene.. if your interest is in comparing both the countries we can do that in another thread.
OT: for the sake of simplicity,
Ofcouse I'm against them Bhajrang dal, VHP lunatics.. but some of the things u posted are wrongly comprehended by you.. like

Quote:

• do know that most of the muslims in India are prosecuted in India for being MUSLIMS??

I dont know this. If you are talking about hindu terrorist organizations. yes but that is not nation wide( though its horrible to admit that hatred is spreading slowly)

Quote:

• Lucy you want to explain the assasination of Indira Gandhi by Sikhs? Wouldnt u say that Sikh Extremist is in India? Wouldnt you say the Sikhism played a HUGE part in the killing of Gandhi? Wouldnt u say the killing was because of RELIGION?
  

To my understanding this was more of a regional issue which then turned into sikh extremism.. thanks to the historic blunder made by Indira Gandhi in the name of operation BlueStar
There is the NDF militant Islamist organisation in Kerala, India established in 1993, claiming to "focus on socio-enonomical issues of minorities".
Comeing from malabar(and the most muslim dominated district of kerala) and having heard the speeches of their leaders.. I'd agree to what you said.. their speeches are hardline islamic their language is caustic. Just like many of the Pro Hindu terrorist organizations..
hmmm maybe we should ask the Hindutva or the BJP what they got up to in Bombay riots and the 1993 Mumbai Bombings. Hell they are so peaceful bunch of lads that the government of India has decided to give them seats in the Indian Parliament. hmmmm lol you want to explain religion to me now?
I dont know how BJP is involved in the Mumbai bombings. and to speak the facts it was Rashtriya Swayam Sevak Sangh ( another extremist organisation in mumbai. this is strictly coz of their leader Bal thakkre and some other fanatic guys)
I dont want to over do this but.. religious extremism is the one where people hurt/ kill/terrorise common man for the sake of religion and only religion and its believes.
And I'm not disgusted to find out that you have an opinion of your own. Most of my friends are muslims :D and we are never disgusted with each other for discussing things like this or expressing one's opinion openly.
I've lot more to write but i'm sleepy.. will continue later.. i knw its lame but its 2:22 n 've work tmw :D rudeboy "If you look at it, India has more muslim's(law abiding, living by prophets words, followers) than pakistan but thanks to their largely moderate views and to some great human beings in the islamic community, Indian muslims are very much different. But in Pakistan, its more hardcore.." I guess we can say that Islamic "TeRRoists" are in India too and i guess you do agree with me. But how are the Indian muslims very much different from the Pakistani muslims. You mind explaining? Lol am not talking about Shah Rukh Khan or Salman Khan, they for one do not represent Islam. "Well to keep it short.. .I've a problem with all the religions or the people who bake it and make it a tool to promote violence.." I guess u r talking about Islam here. Cleverly enough NOW you are mentioning that you have a problem with ALL the religions. hmmm abit strange when earlier in your other threads you had a problem with Islam. hmmm. I know this thread is about Pakistani political scene so you want to explain to me y you are talking about a religion that promotes violence hmmm. I dont want to compare the 2 countries. and say to ya hey pakistan is better at cricket or whatever :P. So you are saying that a train fulled with muslims in Gujurat was just torched for no reason and it was done by accident? Oh let me guess the lighter excuse ;). And coincidently most of the passengers were muslims. Lol mate you want a movie of a person who belongs to BJP who shows off on a STATE TV saying that he torched the train because he hated Muslims. Hmmmm. I agree with you I am not sure this is not nation wide and I am sure the hatred is spreading. I have even witnessed it here in UAE and other parts of the Middle East where a Hindu would only do business with a Hindu. hmm. Hey I am sure there are some Indian muslims who only do business with a muslim. Yes the assasination of Indira was done by sikh "terroists" and it was for a separate state of Khalistan. I agree with you religious extremism is there and it needs to be addressed. But I have already discussed that the source of Islamic Extremism is because of dictators abusing their power (example Pakistan where the dictator happens to be USA puppet, example Afghanistan where the dictator happens to be a USA puppet) and not doing anything for their ppl. When I mean ppl i mean the WHOLE population. It means doing something for the poor as well. Poor in countries like Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan find refuge with terroist groups because those groups offer good salary and that too in dollars :D. what does the government offer them NOTHING!!!. theres no jobs for them. The difference between Indian muslims is that majority of them are rich or can support their families. If they are not rich they have basic education and maybe thats the reason y you have seen more Indians then Pakistanis in Dubai. Compare the two. one who is well off and one who is nt. if ur government is not doing anything what will u do? take the 200$ a week ppl like Osama Bin Ladin offer u and become one of his soilders. Thats y u will see more Pakistanis involved in "terroist activities" whereas you will see more Indian Muslims working and are able to support them self because they had basic education. Islam doesnt promote violence as you have said. Yes ppl will use Islam and make it a tool to promote violence. But even those who are using Islam to promote violence are only saying "Defend urself, your house and your family when your are under attack and do not have justice". Y are most ppl in UAE not terroists? y are most ppl in Bahrain not terroists? y not most pppl from Qatar or Kuwait? Hmm maybe because the governments of their countries have done Alot for them. They have provided them with education and other benefits. You said that the Assasination of Indira Ghandi was more because of a regional issue? Hmm so what about Palestine? What about Kashmir? What about Kosovo? Hmmmm is that not because of a regional issue and not because Islam promotes Violence? I have hindu friends and to be honest with you I have never discussed with them about these things or even to see what they view. I guess its probably because we dont wont to argue and screw up the friendship ;) Terroism or Fundamentalism has a root. USAs foreign policy and poverty across the 3rd world whose haven is Fundamentalist groups. Islam doesnt not promote violence Yes it does say defend ur self just like any other religion in the world like Christianity and I am sure even Hinduism. If you think that Islam says that hey kill any non-muslims at sight then please show me where in the Quran it says so. But do remeber if u do find a verse from the Quran you will have to explain the whole verse and the reasons for killing a non-muslim. Yes u do see militants dressed up with lyrics from the Quran, speaking something and reciting something from the quran and then blowing themselves up or something. Hmmm i guess they talking in Arabic because Arabic happens to be their mother tongue ;). Its a shame that the Media couldnt pick up on a Hindu Terroist torching the muslims alive or torching a few churches up and running around and yelling "hari raam hari raam". hmmm its a shame that the Worlds Medias focus wasnt on them. Islam doesnt promote violence if it does please show it to me where it says in the Quran. Please dont say to me that oh my INDIAN muslim friend who goes clubbing, eats pork and then happens to pray on Friday told me so. lol I dont have time to listen to what the Friday boys have got to say. I want SOLID evidence of it where it shows that the QURAN PROMOTES VIOLENCE. St.Lucifer Rudeboy.. u've got it all mixed up.. I dont know where you got to see my muslim hatred.. from which thread.. I can only say.. that is utter bullshit.. and like I said I hate all the religions in its state it is today. Its a funny thing.. religion much like a society evolves and what you see is definitely not what it was meant to be. I bet all the religions only meant good to people.. but take a look where it is today. Violence, terrorism I hate it everywhere.. I still dont get why you keep pointing out to the hindu / muslim riots and hidnu terrorists killing people torching churches in gujrat, orissa etc.. should I take each incident and point out that ok in this .. islamic terrorists r wrong.. in this hindu terrorists.. here .. sikh terrorists .. its plain and simple.. humanity is the biggest religion and all forms of terrorism should be banished. back in my hometown.. there used to be so many un-educated youth.. largely muslim youth.. but hold on.. they are not un educated.. they get education only in Quran.. (this is typical among the muslim community that i've seen .. and it doesnt mean that i'm picking on Islam..you are getting that feeling because you are offended when someone criticizes you or islam?) and so what would they do? neither they or their parents have any plans on how to make income.. then comes the other options to make money.. and some of them fall prey. Lets look at how the psyche of masses work... there are problems among people only when they start to prove that only one's thoughts and ideologies are right.. a good society is when everyone respects others feelings.. though it may differ. like I said.. I discuss everything with my friends.. we debate about religions..and never feel that we'll loose friendship coz of that.. but we agree to disagree and still remain friends.. If you dont have that confidence.. what is your friendship based ? Dont keep thinking that every non muslim thinks that all muslims are terrorists. But yes I do believe that Islamic fundamentalism is on the top of the list when it comes to the root cause of problems in Pakistan. In its present state.. and how people see religions...all religions are bad... coz like a person is known for his/her deeds.. a religion is known by the people who practise it. let me not elongate this thread with out of topic stuff.. I rest my case ..rudeboy I'm glad that you spoke abt issues that made me think and realize much.. thanks for tht and.. on the thread topic..let me borrow Shaf's words.. I agree to disagree. rudeboy

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  Rudeboy.. u've got it all mixed up..
  I dont know where you got to see my muslim hatred.. from which thread.. I can only say.. that is utter bullshit.. and like I said I hate all the religions in its state it is today. Its a funny thing.. religion much like a society evolves and what you see is definitely not what it was meant to be. I bet all the religions only meant good to people.. but take a look where it is today.
  Violence, terrorism I hate it everywhere.. I still dont get why you keep pointing out to the hindu / muslim riots and hidnu terrorists killing people torching churches in gujrat, orissa etc.. should I take each incident and point out that ok in this .. islamic terrorists r wrong.. in this hindu terrorists.. here .. sikh terrorists .. its plain and simple.. humanity is the biggest religion and all forms of terrorism should be banished.
  back in my hometown.. there used to be so many un-educated youth.. largely muslim youth.. but hold on.. they are not un educated.. they get education only in Quran.. (this is typical among the muslim community that i've seen .. and it doesnt mean that i'm picking on Islam..you are getting that feeling because you are offended when someone criticizes you or islam?) and so what would they do? neither they or their parents have any plans on how to make income.. then comes the other options to make money.. and some of them fall prey.
  
  Lets look at how the psyche of masses work... there are problems among people only when they start to prove that only one's thoughts and ideologies are right.. a good society is when everyone respects others feelings.. though it may differ. like I said.. I discuss everything with my friends.. we debate about religions..and never feel that we'll loose friendship coz of that.. but we agree to disagree and still remain friends..
  If you dont have that confidence.. what is your friendship based ?
  Dont keep thinking that every non muslim thinks that all muslims are terrorists. But yes I do believe that Islamic fundamentalism is on the top of the list when it comes to the root cause of problems in Pakistan.
  In its present state.. and how people see religions...all religions are bad... coz like a person is known for his/her deeds.. a religion is known by the people who practise it.
  let me not elongate this thread with out of topic stuff.. I rest my case ..rudeboy I'm glad that you spoke abt issues that made me think and realize much.. thanks for tht and.. on the thread topic..let me borrow Shaf's words.. I agree to disagree.

i respect ur opinion you are entitled to say what you like. But I dont think terroism in Pakistan is because of Islam. I dont think terroism in Iraq is because of Islam. I dont think terroism in Afghanistan is because of Islam.
But I agree with you that the poor and un-educated masses do fall prey to the Islamic Extremists.
If you are un-educated you have a huge family to support u dont have a job u r un-educated what will you do? You will take the $200.00 a week from ppl like Bin Ladin and join his ranks.
No Education, poverty, political ties and regional tension leads to Terroism. Not Islam not Hinduism .
population of Pakistan is ALOT and 80% of that population are un-educated or probably dont have a good job or sometimes dont even HAVE a job. I am pretty much sure that the ppl who carry out bombings are probably not even "RELIGIOUS". They are just doing so because they will know that after their death ppl like Bin Ladin will continue supporting their families example Hamas who pay a lot of money to suicide bombers family.
Madrasas are FREE education in Pakistan. An islamic school which offers FREE education. in those schools they teach you the teachings of Islam and I am sure that some of the ppl from such schools do become militants but thats only because their gov is not doing anything for them. Its not offering them a job after their education. Instead they join up with ppl like bin ladin who do offer them a good sum of money as a salary and at the same time they are doing a good job by fighting in the "holy war".
Then there are ppl who FED up with USA. I for one am and to some of you may seem that my views are too "extreme" but thankfully I know whats write and whats wrong thanks to the education I got. But who knows in the future :p. rudeboy

• St.Lucifer wrote:
  Rudeboy.. u've got it all mixed up..
  I dont know where you got to see my muslim hatred.. from which thread.. I can only say.. that is utter bullshit.. and like I said I hate all the religions in its state it is today. Its a funny thing.. religion much like a society evolves and what you see is definitely not what it was meant to be. I bet all the religions only meant good to people.. but take a look where it is today.
  Violence, terrorism I hate it everywhere.. I still dont get why you keep pointing out to the hindu / muslim riots and hidnu terrorists killing people torching churches in gujrat, orissa etc.. should I take each incident and point out that ok in this .. islamic terrorists r wrong.. in this hindu terrorists.. here .. sikh terrorists .. its plain and simple.. humanity is the biggest religion and all forms of terrorism should be banished.
  back in my hometown.. there used to be so many un-educated youth.. largely muslim youth.. but hold on.. they are not un educated.. they get education only in Quran.. (this is typical among the muslim community that i've seen .. and it doesnt mean that i'm picking on Islam..you are getting that feeling because you are offended when someone criticizes you or islam?) and so what would they do? neither they or their parents have any plans on how to make income.. then comes the other options to make money.. and some of them fall prey.
  
  Lets look at how the psyche of masses work... there are problems among people only when they start to prove that only one's thoughts and ideologies are right.. a good society is when everyone respects others feelings.. though it may differ. like I said.. I discuss everything with my friends.. we debate about religions..and never feel that we'll loose friendship coz of that.. but we agree to disagree and still remain friends..
  If you dont have that confidence.. what is your friendship based ?
  Dont keep thinking that every non muslim thinks that all muslims are terrorists. But yes I do believe that Islamic fundamentalism is on the top of the list when it comes to the root cause of problems in Pakistan.
  In its present state.. and how people see religions...all religions are bad... coz like a person is known for his/her deeds.. a religion is known by the people who practise it.
  let me not elongate this thread with out of topic stuff.. I rest my case ..rudeboy I'm glad that you spoke abt issues that made me think and realize much.. thanks for tht and.. on the thread topic..let me borrow Shaf's words.. I agree to disagree.

i respect ur opinion you are entitled to say what you like. But I dont think terroism in Pakistan is because of Islam. I dont think terroism in Iraq is because of Islam. I dont think terroism in Afghanistan is because of Islam.
But I agree with you that the poor and un-educated masses do fall prey to the Islamic Extremists.
If you are un-educated you have a huge family to support u dont have a job u r un-educated what will you do? You will take the $200.00 a week from ppl like Bin Ladin and join his ranks.
No Education, poverty, political ties and regional tension leads to Terroism. Not Islam not Hinduism .
population of Pakistan is ALOT and 80% of that population are un-educated or probably dont have a good job or sometimes dont even HAVE a job. I am pretty much sure that the ppl who carry out bombings are probably not even "RELIGIOUS". They are just doing so because they will know that after their death ppl like Bin Ladin will continue supporting their families example Hamas who pay a lot of money to suicide bombers family.
Madrasas are FREE education in Pakistan. An islamic school which offers FREE education. in those schools they teach you the teachings of Islam and I am sure that some of the ppl from such schools do become militants but thats only because their gov is not doing anything for them. Its not offering them a job after their education. Instead they join up with ppl like bin ladin who do offer them a good sum of money as a salary and at the same time they are doing a good job by fighting in the "holy war".
Then there are ppl who FED up with USA. I for one am and to some of you may seem that my views are too "extreme" but thankfully I know whats rite and whats wrong thanks to the education I got. But who knows in the future :p.