Why Muslims Take Offence

arniegang and why we must ALL recognise respect is a two-way street. In one of our papers today is a very interesting article. It has given me a new perspective and i hope some food for thought and debate. Yesterday a Jordanian Editor was sacked because he asked his readers a question. "What brings more prejudice against Islam - these caricatures? Or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim?" Also is an interesting fact that the Egyptian newspaper (gov controlled) Al Ahram routinely publishes anti- Jewish (not simply anti - Israeli) caricatures of men with hooked noses and Fagin like faces gloating as they take over the world and soak it in muslim blood. When challenged the editor stated "well i'm affraid its just part of our culture, you should not take it too seriously". This leads the writer on to say "well free speech is part of our culture - so long as it does not seek to incite violence. But we do not riot, tear down mosques, burn national flags or do not issue death threats against those who offend me or my principles". It is a suprise to most non muslims that representations of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are forbidden. However the Koran does not state this. This only occurs in the Hadith which is a collection of the sayings of the Prophet written after his death. Going back to the subject of offending caroons. Another Egyptian newspaper Al Ackbar also publish anti semitic cartoons. For example showing an Israelli Soldier with a Swastika for legs and the head of a pig, or Ehud Barak dressed as Hitler with blood dripping from his hands and standing on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Were the Egyptian embassies in Tel Aviv, Washington or London sieged by protestors.? NO. Furthermore an english language paper produced in Saudi "The Arab News", and circulated around the Gulf , last week, depicted cartoons of Ariel Sharon wilding a swastika shaped axe to chop up Palestinian children. To me these cartoons, all of which were copied in the Mail, are highly offensive. But the writer is right and i agree, it does not make me want to go and protest outside of any Embassy, let alone even leave my house for. Some food for thought and hopefully peaceful calm discussion and debate please.

shafique Arniegang - interesting points. Propaganda and insults should not take place and demean the person making the protests. However Arnie - all the instances you mention are +intended+ to cause offense, because of the hatred that is felt towards the people being insulted. Two wrongs don't make a right - the presence of offensive and insulting cartoons in arabic publications does not excuse the publication of offensive and insulting images in European newspapers. Both are wrong and both cause offense to the targets - I'm sure no Jew feels happy to see these images. However, note that no Arabic newspaper would publish a cartoon lampooning Moses, Jesus or any other Jewish prophet. I therefore come back to the general point that Freedom of Speech is not without it's bounds - all civilized societies agree that it stops at the point where it becomes intentional and gratuitious insults. There are laws of slander and libel which transcend freedom of speech. This is also called common courtesy and respect. I'll die in a ditch to defend anyone's right to freedom of speech... but please don't expect me to thank you for insulting what I hold dear. (Just a general point, not aimed at anyone in particular) wasalaam, Shafique Liban Idolizing any of the prophets is blasphemy and a no go. Can we kill this subject. yorky500 I don't believe we should kill this subject. The shoe is on the other foot now (in terms of cartoons), and I do not hear or see any Westerner of Christian faith shouting "death to Muslims", rioting and burning Arab national flags, and storming embassies and other consulates etc. Liban, I want to ask you a direct question: Do you agree with the way Muslims have reacted around the world i.e. death threats, pictures of masked gunmen, storming of consulates/embassies etc? kanelli Mr. Boobs, you can add burning embassies to the list. (Danish, Chilean, and Swedish embassies on fire in Damascus.) arniegang Liban My post was not one of intention of starting a "flame" war. I merely wanted to open this up for discussion, in particular, with people like yourself in the hope of better understanding and serious debate. The article in the Daily Mail today, in my view was a very interesting read. The writer, similar to Shafique puts his point across without "bias". It was merely giving facts and an alternative viewpoint. Liban, we all have agreed the cartoons were disgraceful. The point of my post was to draw attention to the fact that many Arab newspapers also post such cartoons, that are also considered disgraceful. The Arab newspapers in showing as Nazi Israelli figures and in particular Hitler is deemed both highly offensive to not only the Jewish people, but the likes of any individual like myself, that lost family in 1the 939-45 war irespective of their religion. At the end of the day, it cuts both ways doesn't it. As much as every Muslim took huge exception and anger to the cartoons (and rightly so), within various Arab publications, the very same thing is done to others. This was as offensive to Israelli's per se' and other individuals, as the Dutch cartoons were offensive to Muslims. HP Sweetheart ; why were u pissed off when i said "Pious Cow to " British Queen :P . So find the answer of your question in " why were arniegang pissed off when HP said pious cow to british queen " :wink: well all people are not the same , and some people take it insult and then you can see the reaction :) arniegang Because i found it offensive HP - the same as i find the cartoons regarding the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) offensive. I think you may have lost the plot HP. One of the major points here is "the result of the reaction". Words and peacefull demonstrations are powerful tools, buring buildings and threatening and intimidating people are not. HP

arniegang wrote:
Because i found it offensive HP - the same as i find the cartoons regarding the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) offensive. I think you may have lost the plot HP.
One of the major points here is "the result of the reaction". Words and peacefull demonstrations are powerful tools, buring buildings and threatening and intimidating people are not.

So u culd tell this to President G.W.Bush after 9-11 , that they shuld had done peacefull demonstrations because it was powerful tool ,bombing Afghanistan and Iraq are not :roll:
well as well as Muslims in DK are concerned they did a lot , they even tried to meet with Prime mininster of DK ,but he refused to meet them. When nothing came out ,they they went to middle east to tell the muslims govt how the danish media ws making fun of our prophet . arniegang HP this has nothing to do with 9/11, i am not even going there. It had nothing to do with the Danish PM. The paper was not breaking any law within a country that has a "free press". He has stated on TV that he considered it offensive and that it should not have been printed. Anyway what has the Danish PM talking or not talking, got to do with the burning of Embassies and violent demonstrations?

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HP

arniegang wrote:
HP this has nothing to do with 9/11, i am not even going there.
It had nothing to do with the Danish PM. The paper was not breaking any law within a country that has a "free press".
He has stated on TV that he considered it offensive and that it should not have been printed.
Anyway what has the Danish PM talking or not talking, got to do with the burning of Embassies and violent demonstrations?

Free press also has obligation .The people who work for media they understand cross culture issue and sensitivity of the particular issue ,thats why British and US media has self censorship . DK is losing it market in middle east .
as i said ......in some cultures and socities ,some people have great respect for some personalities and some people care more than the others. So when someone make fun of their feeling ,aftermath is always " out of control".
Group of Danish people announced to Brun the Holy book of muslims in Copenhagen ,DK. When the news speard in middle east that Danes are buring the Quran (koran) in Copenhagen ,muslims were angry and you saw the situation in Syria. Liban

yorky500 wrote:

Liban, I want to ask you a direct question:
Do you agree with the way Muslims have reacted around the world i.e. death threats, pictures of masked gunmen, storming of consulates/embassies etc?

There are many ways to react to what those morons did in Europe with those blasphemous pictures. Now I personally would have suied (sp?) the perpetrators for an official apology and firing the staff that authorzed the cartoons AND boycotted and/or sanctionned the products of the country to make the respective nation's leader apologize (PM, Royal, President, etc...).
Now as for what is happening... Well people are angry, they are insensed, and deeply offended. Our governments are for the most part, quite stupid to be honest and do not do shit all for their people (lets stop kidding ourselves with this point). Therefore our people have to take action.
I am not going to condemn what these people are doing because I feel for them and I myself am extremily angry and insulted...
But as for myself, I am simply engaging in the boycott and I have emailed a few of the magazines and papers to tell them how insulted and hurt I am... Of course, no response... So that tells you how I would have acted.... hashman

yorky500 wrote:
I don't believe we should kill this subject. The shoe is on the other foot now (in terms of cartoons), and I do not hear or see any Westerner of Christian faith shouting "death to Muslims", rioting and burning Arab national flags, and storming embassies and other consulates etc.
Liban, I want to ask you a direct question:
Do you agree with the way Muslims have reacted around the world i.e. death threats, pictures of masked gunmen, storming of consulates/embassies etc?

well yorky let me ask u a question. How many ppl go to church and give a damn about Christainity? How many ppl really follow the 10 commandments? most of the christians outthere wear the cross just for fashion and cry out "Jesus" as an expression. That religion is almost dead. Ppl nowadays think money and power as God. Those ppl themselves insult Jesus Christ what hell respect would they pay to other prophets? So they dont have time to say death to muslims cos they can spend that time to earn money. HP Look people the headline of news paper ,which published cartoon :)
Honourable Fellow Citizens of the Muslim World
Hahahaha ,this was the news paper ,which always used to write against muslims :P ,sometime they find the problem in head scarf and sometime they were doing the research like " every 1 out of 5 muslim is terrorist and criminal in Denmark " :P
I am happy to see now they are paying back :P arniegang Hashman Why dont you attempt to discuss the original post instead of attacking Yorkie with discussions and agruement that had nothing to do with his post and the topic at hand. HP

Yesterday a Jordanian Editor was sacked because he asked his readers a question.
"What brings more prejudice against Islam - these caricatures? Or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim?"

[color=blue]Well i say both ...but slashing the throat seems "OK" as US is occupied in Iraq and there is only way to discourage the US is to distrub the daily life . The killing of innocent persons is against the code of Islam but one has to understand the feeling of people ,who are taking such kind of action and why are they doing it.
I believe that Editor asked the stupid questions. [/color]

Also is an interesting fact that the Egyptian newspaper (gov controlled) Al Ahram routinely publishes anti- Jewish (not simply anti - Israeli) caricatures of men with hooked noses and Fagin like faces gloating as they take over the world and soak it in muslim blood.

[color=blue]I think you shuld demonstrate a little bit maturity here and dont compare the prophet wid occupied Jew. News paper usually make the cartoon of political figures and leaders , but that is something else . Showing the prophet as terrorist is entirly a different tale.[/color]

When challenged the editor stated "well i'm affraid its just part of our culture, you should not take it too seriously".
This leads the writer on to say
"well free speech is part of our culture - so long as it does not seek to incite violence. But we do not riot, tear down mosques, burn national flags or do not issue death threats against those who offend me or my principles".

[color=blue]Well muslims never made fun of any prophet ,in order to bcome muslims ,one has to accept all prophets. [/color]

It is a suprise to most non muslims that representations of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) are forbidden. However the Koran does not state this. This only occurs in the Hadith which is a collection of the sayings of the Prophet written after his death.

[color=blue]The reason is that people dont worship his representations. The jyllnad posten made the cartoon by showing as "Holy Prophet was terrorist" . Just imagine if someone link the British Queen to mad Cow of UK then? :P [/color]

Going back to the subject of offending caroons. Another Egyptian newspaper Al Ackbar also publish anti semitic cartoons. For example showing an Israelli Soldier with a Swastika for legs and the head of a pig, or Ehud Barak dressed as Hitler with blood dripping from his hands and standing on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
Were the Egyptian embassies in Tel Aviv, Washington or London sieged by protestors.? NO.

[color=blue] I think i already posted the answer of this quote;0) .[/color] Chocoholic HP, once again you miss the point. No it's not acceptable to kill innocent people, just because you're pissed off! No-one should ever condone the killing of innocents. And stop yapping on about Iraq, it's irrelevent. Plus you didn't see Americans openly murdering Muslims on the streets after 9/11 did you? No! The point is the violent reaction from certain Muslims is unacceptable which ever way you look at it. Peaceful demonstration says far more than making threats and destroying things, people never respond to bully boy tactics, and you have your evidence by the reaction of the Danes in retaliation. I really don't know why you find it so hard to understand that the violent reactions of certain people are damaging the image of Islam and Muslims even more than it is already, and they are not the reaction of the general population. And once again I say to you, that the violent and threatening reaction is only reinforcing the way the Prophet was depicted - this really isn't brain surgery you know. If you didn't have suicide bombers and people willfully blowing things up, he would never have been drawn that way in the first place. Plus you still don't understand the concept of free press either, so it's pointless trying to explain it to you anymore. Plus when people give you examples of things the arab press has printed, you go so what! It happens on both sides, but the reaction is totally different. The whole thing is a mess, you've now got Danes protesting against other Danes for their encouragement of a violent reaction, the excuse has been given for Nazi supports to jump on the band wagon and the last thing you need is the likes of them and the BNP (British National Party) to be given an excuse to kick off. HP Choco
read what i wrote above , i cant repeat again and again . I dont know who wrote this quote ,but i really apperciate it :
[color=blue] " The best defence is in attack " [/color]
If muslims start taking agressive steps as they did against Denmark and Danish companies , euroepan countries will get a lesson ( and they are getting) and i love it ;0) .
:P arniegang HP you are correct in quoting the saying "the best form of defense is attack". however, it comes down to how you define or interperet "attack". IMHO it ranges anywhere in between and icluding a "stongly worded letter" and murder.

arniegang wrote:
HP
you are correct in quoting the saying
"the best form of defense is attack".
however, it comes down to how you define or interperet "attack".
IMHO it ranges anywhere in between and icluding a "stongly worded letter" and murder.

The way someone define attack is strongly depend on "what capacity do they have to define a attack".
If you are as powerful as USA ,then you will invade a country or put the economic sanction against the subject country.
if you are in Iraq ,the only power you have to discourage against invasion is " behading".
If you are British football spectators ,attack means violence against the spectators of other country or club :0) .
If you are as Great as Great Britain ,you will make "shoot to kill" rule :0) arniegang Its how one chooses to apply the interptetation HP - end of pacificsurf619 The Extremist Islamic Movement is fighting against the status quo. It is a very fueled movement because most people are actually unhappy with themselves, and the situations in which they are in. Look at how many self help books, diet pills, and Jerry Springer guests there are, in general it is an unhappy world. BUT if your going to fight the status quo, then offer something different. Dont just complain to complain, my second grade teacher taught me that. The Extremist Islamic leaders want a world of NO womens rights, violence for intimidation, and no freedom of religion, or worse no freedom FROM religion. Democracy is the worst form of government, but its better then all of the other ones we have tried. Live by that quote untill you can provide the world with a stable country under a new form of government. ** I especially like the pictures of seeing kids screaming anti danish slurs in school, I bet they cant even pick out denmark on a map. Great education system, teach hate before you teach anything else. Thats called brainwashing. So Extremist islamic States withhold education from women and teach children hate. And people are upset at cartoons? Look at yourself before spending so much energy trying to correct everyone else :pirate: kanelli

pacificsurf619 wrote:
The Extremist Islamic Movement is fighting against the status quo. It is a very fueled movement because most people are actually unhappy with themselves, and the situations in which they are in.
Look at how many self help books, diet pills, and Jerry Springer guests there are, in general it is an unhappy world.
BUT if your going to fight the status quo, then offer something different. Dont just complain to complain, my second grade teacher taught me that.
The Extremist Islamic leaders want a world of NO womens rights, violence for intimidation, and no freedom of religion, or worse no freedom FROM religion.
Democracy is the worst form of government, but its better then all of the other ones we have tried. Live by that quote untill you can provide the world with a stable country under a new form of government.
** I especially like the pictures of seeing kids screaming anti danish slurs in school, I bet they cant even pick out denmark on a map. Great education system, teach hate before you teach anything else. Thats called brainwashing.
So Extremist islamic States withhold education from women and teach children hate. And people are upset at cartoons? Look at yourself before spending so much energy trying to correct everyone else :pirate:

Wow, that was a pretty ignorant post. You are stereotyping all Islamic countries here! Were you aware that there are many Islamic countries with many different rules, education systems, political systems etc.? Go do some reading. pacificsurf619 Notice the term Extremist. Please provide me an example, and I will be the first to apologize kanelli Examples of what? kanelli You wrote "The Extremist Islamic leaders want a world of NO womens rights, violence for intimidation, and no freedom of religion, or worse no freedom FROM religion." Perhaps you could give some examples? pacificsurf619 I want to clarify that Extremist is not an adjective to describe Islamic states, its a group that preaches Extremist Islamic traditions and behavior. So make sure thats clear, I am not saying ALL islamic states, I am just stating the ones that preach Extremist activitity and doctrine. (The same ones that encourage violent protests) kanelli Please name some, just so we are all clear. pacificsurf619 Dude, watch the news Chocoholic Kanelli, Don't bother! pacificsurf619 obviously has a bit of a split personality and can't make up his mind, if you read one of his other posts! kanelli

pacificsurf619 wrote:
Dude, watch the news

Nice avoidance tactic.
:lol: Liban Pacific, either give examples or do not type any further on the issue. What, you are afraid to answer Kanelli's question because you don't want to look wrong??? In that case, you should never have started with this. You will lose. Intimacy Chocoholic... i could see thru your posts that you are a nice person.. but im a ltl suprised here.. thats why im posting this reply...

I really don't know why you find it so hard to understand that the violent reactions of certain people are damaging the image of Islam and Muslims even more than it is already, and they are not the reaction of the general population.

[color=red]So, how Does the war should make us we muslims feel? (u will know why i brought this up)
after hundreds of thousands of people were killed.. FOR NOTHING.. JSUT FOR LIES...
Entire Civilisations has been wiped out..
women are being raped in front of their hasbands/brothers and then those men are thrown in Jail for ever without any guilt!!!
and the unfairness still going on..
Damaging the image of islam is the message of all the Media channels as you can see... islam is very well known across history.... and now its the worst?????!!!!! Are you trying to say that we need to keep kissing a@@es in oder to get the image of islam better..?
[/color]

And once again I say to you, that the violent and threatening reaction is only reinforcing the way the Prophet was depicted - this really isn't brain surgery you know.

[color=red]We know the prphet very well...I think you should tell that to Denmark who published the cartoons[/color]

If you didn't have suicide bombers and people willfully blowing things up, he would never have been drawn that way in the first place.

[color=red]You wana tell me that suicide bombers came to this world just because they are bored and have nothing to do???!! have you asked your self what kind of ppl are those...?! [/color]
[color=red] I am against suicde bombers.... but.. i wana know why are they doing this?! Or are you trying to say that those ppl are killing them selves just for the sake of killing?!!! [/color]

Plus you still don't understand the concept of free press either,

[color=red]Yes, i think you have to tell this to Bush, tell him plz also to stop calling anyone who is trying to reveal his devilish plans as a terrorist. Examples: Tayseer Aloni is in Jail.. another photagrapher is in Gawantanmo.. Al jazeerz office was destroyed twice with american rockets (by mistake!!!) other reporters were killed from all over the world also...[/color]

Plus when people give you examples of things the arab press has printed.

the newspaper employees' butts where on fire dear... besides.. we know as a fact that (Shehan newspaper) is not arab.. it publishes in arabic .. but not owned or controlled by muslims since long time ago.
[color=red]if the Danish Gov. didnt wana go thru all of this.. they simply could apologies..
maybe ppl are asking what this has to do with war in Iraq and afghanstan... and the other pleaces..
well.. let me tell u... that ppl are full of anger.... and i mean all the ppl.. even the once who are drinking in the bars.. and fooling around... in anger with the GOVERNMENTS NOT THE PEOPLE ... and this incidence was the hit which made the explosion in them.
i have nothing against Danish ppl.. many of them are nice and kind... but i hate to those who chose to be my enemy... this is a natural thing i thikn...
[/color] . kanelli Intimacy, it is Muslims who are killing more fellow Muslims in Iraq than the coalition forces. arniegang

kanelli wrote:
Intimacy, it is Muslims who are killing more fellow Muslims in Iraq than the coalition forces.

This is very true K.
Maybe someone here could give a reasoned response and justification. Intimacy

kanelli wrote:
Intimacy, it is Muslims who are killing more fellow Muslims in Iraq than the coalition forces.

[color=red]You poor people.... do u still believe this crap...!!!!???
ok then, Click on the link to see that The FBI�s counterterrorism unit has launched a broad investigation of U.S.-based theft rings after discovering that some of the cars used in deadly bombings in Iraq, including attacks that killed U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians, probably were stolen in the United States, according to senior government officials.
Wake up People... stop being naive!![/color] Liban I pity those who watch the biased media reports of the West and beleive what they see. Intimacy

Liban wrote:
I pity those who watch the biased media reports of the West and beleive what they see.

Yes..Pity is the right word mate... pacificsurf619 Sorry, I didnt mean to avoid the issue. Iran, Afghanistan, Palenstine Territories, and Syria all have very low womens rights, lack of female education, low employment rate, and have had violent protests in reaction to the Cartoons. Iran did an amazing thing today and sponsored a holocaust cartoon competition. Thats brilliant, and I commend them for that. It is a non-violent way to respond to the wests insenstive actions, and hopefully will ruffle a few feathers so others know how it feels. Great response!! Countries that do not sponsor education for women will not prosper in todays world. The violent protests coming from Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, Palenstine territories, are as much a reaction to their living standards as the cartoons. If you dont have a job, and you dont respect emotional female intelligence, your prone to violence. If your taught hate when your young, then all you can reason with is violence. Chocoholic Intimacy, sadly many of the deluded people do not care who they in the name of the religion, whether it's innocent people or their muslim brothers and sisters, these people do not discriminate, it's all the same to them. Please don't rattle on about history it only clouds the issue, I'm talking about what's happening here and now. Yes it's sad to say that the actions of a few have tarnished the image of good and true muslims. Take the UK for example, all the Islamic leaders have condemmed the violent actions and the 'rent a crowd' who're protesting. Abu Hamza has just been sentenced to 7 years in prison for his rants inciting hatred and encouraging violence and links to terror networks. The student seen dressed as a suicide bomber during the protests was arrested after calls from the same Islamic leaders, who said he was not a representation of Islam or muslims. He was found to be a 'crack' dealer on probation. Should these people not be the enemy of Islam, who bring the goodness into disrepute. Until those Muslims who abide by the true meanings of their religion stand up and get rid of the renegades in their ranks and tell them their methods and ideoligies are wrong and flawed, then all this stuff will just keep happening. And you're very naive if you don't think that many people now just associate Islam and mulims with terrorists and violence because of people like I've mentioned above. But thankfully, there are people who're starting to speak out against idiots like Abu Hamza and Omar Bakri - the coward hiding in Lebanon! arniegang Choc, You are goin to like this one. It hasnt been on TV yet, but todays papers, one of them have sussed that the young guy who dressed as a "suicide bomber", was "on parole" (early release) from prison, he was convicted in 2003 of dealing in Cocaine. A devoute Muslim? I think not. Representative of the masses of his faith? I think not. A true hypoctite? I think so Intimacy

Chocoholic wrote:
Intimacy, sadly many of the deluded people do not care who they in the name of the religion, whether it's innocent people or their muslim brothers and sisters, these people do not discriminate, it's all the same to them.
Please don't rattle on about history it only clouds the issue, I'm talking about what's happening here and now.
Yes it's sad to say that the actions of a few have tarnished the image of good and true muslims. Take the UK for example, all the Islamic leaders have condemmed the violent actions and the 'rent a crowd' who're protesting. Abu Hamza has just been sentenced to 7 years in prison for his rants inciting hatred and encouraging violence and links to terror networks. The student seen dressed as a suicide bomber during the protests was arrested after calls from the same Islamic leaders, who said he was not a representation of Islam or muslims. He was found to be a 'crack' dealer on probation. Should these people not be the enemy of Islam, who bring the goodness into disrepute.
Until those Muslims who abide by the true meanings of their religion stand up and get rid of the renegades in their ranks and tell them their methods and ideoligies are wrong and flawed, then all this stuff will just keep happening.
And you're very naive if you don't think that many people now just associate Islam and mulims with terrorists and violence because of people like I've mentioned above.
But thankfully, there are people who're starting to speak out against idiots like Abu Hamza and Omar Bakri - the coward hiding in Lebanon!

I am not rattling on about history Dear... its natual that nothing which was standing for thousands of years would just change over a night.
anywhy..i am almost sure that if you see what i have against this (Docs and Facts) you will change ur mind
ppl who get on the TV by the name Od islam are hired.. and being paied.. so they can be used as an excuse for the West Govs to do what ever they want.. not just only to us.. but to their own ppl.... it here with me.. in Docs. Chocoholic

arniegang wrote:
Choc,
You are goin to like this one. It hasnt been on TV yet, but todays papers, one of them have sussed that the young guy who dressed as a "suicide bomber", was "on parole" (early release) from prison, he was convicted in 2003 of dealing in Cocaine.
A devoute Muslim?
I think not.
Representative of the masses of his faith?
I think not.
A true hypoctite?
I think so

Yeah I put this in the other thread, he was serving 6 years for dealing 'crack' and has just gone back to prison - hahaha - loser!
Plus Aby Hamza, just conficted of inciting violence and hatred and having terror links - jailed for 7 years - not enough if you ask me.
Just hope that coward Bakri goes back to the UK so he can get locked up too, but the idiot is still being a coward and hidin in Lebanon. The tide has turned on these guys and with Islamic leaders also calling for their arrest, the moderate muslims are starting to oust these people - which is a great thing. arniegang soz Choc didnt notice you had it in other thread lol