shafique
- event horizon wrote:
Yes, we agree that a passage that says to attack unbelievers because they are unbelievers contradicts a passage which says for Muslims to attack Pagans after they are first attacked.
One must choose which passage to follow!
Glad we agree - indeed we must choose which interpretation to believe.
Thank you again for making it clear that the Quran does contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc - and it is a pleasure to agree with you on this point.
Cheers,
Shafique
event horizon
Uh huh. But unfortunately, the passage is referring to Pagans. As the OP asks, who are the Jews and Christians that Muslims must attack?
Can you clarify where the Koran says they pose a military threat or should the Koran be interpreted literally that those who are unbelievers should be attacked for their unbelief?
event horizon
Yes, we agree that a passage that says to attack unbelievers because they are unbelievers contradicts a passage which says for Muslims to attack Pagans after they are first attacked.
One must choose which passage to follow!
event horizon
In another thread, shafique has claimed that the literary context of the ninth chapter of the Koran shows that verse 9:29, which says to attack unbelievers, really only means to attack a group of Jews and Christians who posed a military threat to Muslims.
Since shafique has not specified which passage of the ninth chapter of the Koran clearly says to attack the Jews and Christians that pose a military threat to the Muslims, I have assumed that Shafique's initial claim was pulled from thin air.
Here is verse 9:29 of the Koran and its literary context:
9:29 Fight those from among the people of the Book , who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion , until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection.
9:30 And the Jews say, `Ezra is the son of ALLAH,' and the Christians say, `the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;' that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away.
9:31 They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate with Him!
9:32 They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers may resent it.
9:33 HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion , even though the idolaters may resent it.
To me, it becomes clear that when read in toto with 9:29, which says to attack unbelievers because of their unbelief - with providing several reasons who should be attacked and why (none of them hinting at a military threat the Muslims faced), verse 9:33 is then clear from its literary context on how Muslims are to '
make [their religion] prevail' over the other religions of the world - through military conquest.
Perhaps shafique can offer up an alternative explanation for 9:29 and why Muslims should not follow the clear instructions to wage war against Jews and Christians because they are not followers of the religion of truth, Islam.
shafique
They are the ones who are a military threat, as explained by the verses you posted in the 'contradictions' thread, where we agreed with you that the other verses of the Quran (explaining when wars should start, the reasons for going to war, and when they should stop) - all contradict the strange orientalist notion you have that 9.29 etc are universal verses.
The other Quranic verses which talk about how to deal with non-believers further clarify this issue.
I shan't be repeating this explanation - but refer people to your own listing of Quranic verses, and the fact you agree with me that these Quranic verses contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc.
Cheers,
Shafique
event horizon
Which passages do you have in mind?
We can addresss the passages here to see if they are in the ninth surah and if they are addressing Jews and Christians or are simply specific passages revealed to a certain group of people.
Of course, this brings up the thorny of issue of Quranic abrogation, but hey, I'll save that for the other thread.
shafique
The one's I posted and highlighted in bold, and also (coincidentally) the ones we agree contradict your interpretation of 9.29 etc.
I'll let you go back and refresh your memory.
Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
eh - please try and keep up, how many times do we have to point out to you that your interpretation of Quranic verses is not gospel?
I thought you'd be happy that I agreed with you that the Quran contradicts your interpretation of 9.29 etc. But I guess you're a hard boy to please!
Cheers,
Shafique
event horizon
Can I conclude you agree that there is a blatant contradiction here and you can't answer the simple question?
shafique
- event horizon wrote:
Can I conclude you agree that there is a blatant contradiction here and you can't answer the simple question?
What part of 'I agree with your first post that the Quran contradicts your view of 9.29 etc' was difficult to comprehend?
Cheers,
Shafique
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event horizon
NP. It's just a lot easier to say that you can't explain away these contradictions, however.
shafique
Your point would be well made if I didn't agree with your first point that there are indeed contradictory verses in the Quran if we interpret 9.29 in the way you do.
As I said, you seem to have a great issue with the fact I agree with you.
Cheers,
Shafique