Was it all a Hoax?

Misery Called Life So not so long ago, India was screaming for screaming from rooftops, exalting it's home bred intellect and lauding them in sucessfully carrying out India Nuclear tests. Going back to 1989 - right wing government - speculation rife the a nuclear test is imminent- American spies close at hand, sniffing....and BAM out of nowhere India announces it's first nuclear test was a grand success( it took USA 6 tests to get it right) - Celebrations, the right wing government is voted back to power - India does some muscle flexing, demands permanant seat in the UN security council..... Silently in the backdrop British experts denounced the tests as a sham, stating that the yield was only 20KT, nothing close to the average 45KT artillery in the posession of USA, Russia and China. Nonetheless India never had a shortage of zealots (maybe just paid mouthpieces) who immediately took the reins of the countries vast but astoundingly inefficient media, threw figures in the air, citing India brilliance and how the west was racist and ignorant.... blah blah blah...it was all akin to a irritating buzzing sound in the ear. 11 years later the truth is finally surfacing. A top scientist who was actually present at the nuclear testing site has scoffed claims that the hydrogen bomb was a success. India at most is probably equipped with just an atom bomb. What do you make of it all? event horizon I'm not sure, but here's an interesting article about India: &pid=20601109 Red Chief MCL, I am not surprized at all. Tha first domestic tank Arjun with more than 50% of foreign parts ended in a fiasco recently. H-bomb is more sophisticated product. I told you not compare India with any listed countries. The distance between China and India is more than 30 years, but even China received technology of H-bomb from SU. Crazy fool Khruschev transfered it to Mao. Stalin would never do that. :evil: Misery Called Life ^^^ It's highly plausible. Even the recent moon mission was a crash and burn. Part of the problem stems from India's lax journalism standards. It's more like propoganda less journalism. On the flip side it would probably mean that even Pakiland does not posess sophisticated nuclear arsenal. rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  
  On the flip side it would probably mean that even Pakiland does not posess sophisticated nuclear arsenal.

pakis have technology from North Korea and the chinese. Like the chief said, the soviets gave it to the chinese and I wouldnt be suprised if the chinese gave it to the pakis. Why do you think USA wants a say in that part of the world?
I also do know that the chinese and the pakis are making a new jet fighter. They already collaborated on various other arsenic products, and this is what India is envy of.
Mind you russians do sell their arsenal to the indians now and then. I am talking about planes and ships etc etc. How good the russian planes are? Some of them keep on dropping out of the sky now and then :D Red Chief

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  Mind you russians do sell their arsenal to the indians now and then. I am talking about planes and ships etc etc. How good the russian planes are? Some of them keep on dropping out of the sky now and then :D

Somebody should shut up his mouth because all Chinese aircrafts is a bad copies of Russian aged ones. I don't have enough imagination what Pakistan can develop themselves except bad copies of AK47, which were revealed in weapon exhibition in Turkey this year.
India hasn't bought very modern aircrafts from Russia but even those aircrafts were enough to kick Pakistani arses badly in Kargil conflict. desertdudeshj Now your going to upset Rudy Misery Called Life Well looks like RC's got the situation under control. Post Kargil there was rumour going round in Pakiland, It seems the Pakistani Air Force has decided to cut costs, so they're only training their pilots to take off. The Indian pilots will take care of thy're landing :D Talking bout Russian fighter jets, Yaa the Migs are out dated. But recently a Sukhoi 30 developed a technical snag and crashed. That's not good. The Sukhoi's are cutting edge competing with the F23's. So there are issues with Russian products. Pakistan is still using F15's RB, planes literally extinct in the US fleet. Seriously RB have you seen Chinese cars? They're a joke, can you imagine the same brains making a plane? :lol: But ur analogy is flawed. Paki strike planes are mostly US, interceptors and reconnaissance are French, heavy-medium lifts are US and French while the basic trainers are Chinese. Offcourse those US and French planes are OUTDATED! Planes apart India uses Phalcon radars imported from Israel, top of the line. Besides RB have you heard of Abdul Qader Khan? Need any more credibility regarding ur 'esteemed' nuclear program? :lol: rudeboy

• Red Chief wrote:
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    
    Mind you russians do sell their arsenal to the indians now and then. I am talking about planes and ships etc etc. How good the russian planes are? Some of them keep on dropping out of the sky now and then :D
  
  Somebody should shut up his mouth because all Chinese aircrafts is a bad copies of Russian aged ones. I don't have enough imagination what Pakistan can develop themselves except bad copies of AK47, which were revealed in weapon exhibition in Turkey this year.
  India hasn't bought very modern aircrafts from Russia but even those aircrafts were enough to kick Pakistani arses badly in Kargil conflict.

did i say chinese aircrafts are GOOD or BAD? stupid ass@ole read what I said and then bloody comment.
Pakistan cant develop good copies of AK47 but they sure can develop nuclear bomb which scares the hell out of india :D
Kargil is in Kashmir. Aircarfts were not used there, artillary and footsoilders were used. lol you should open your mouth when you know the full picture mate. Misery Called Life err RB? Mind reading this? Air Operations From May 11 to May 25, ground troops supported by the Air Force tried to contain the threat, assessed the enemy dispositions and carried out various preparatory actions. Entry of the Air Force into combat action on May 26 represented a paradigm shift in the nature and prognosis of the conflict. In operation Safed Sagar, the Air Force carried out nearly 5,000 sorties of all types over 50-odd days of operations. The Western Air Command conducted the three-week-long exercise Trishul three weeks before Kargil. During Trishul, the IAF flew 5,000 sorties with 300 aircraft using 35,000 personnel and engaged targets at high elevation in the Himalayas. The IAF claimed to have flown 550 sorties in Kargil, though just about 80 were on or close to the target. Soon after Kargil, both the commander-in-chief and senior air staff officer of the Western Air Command were mysteriously transferred to the Central and Eastern commands. Operations in this terrain required special training and tactics. It was soon realised that greater skills and training were needed to attack the very small/miniature targets extant, often not visible to the naked eye. The shoulder-fired missile threat was omnipresent and there were no doubts about this. An IAF Canberra recce aircraft was damaged by a Pakistani Stinger fired possibly from across the LoC. On the second and third day of the operations, still in the learning curve, the IAF lost one MiG-21 fighter and one Mi-17 helicopter to shoulder-fired missiles by the enemy. In addition, one MiG-27 was lost on the second day due to engine failure just after the pilot had carried out successful attacks on one of the enemy's main supply dumps. These events only went to reinforce the tactics of the IAF in carrying out attacks from outside the Stinger SAM envelope and avoiding the use of helicopters for attack purposes. Attack helicopters have a certain utility in operations under relatively benign conditions but are extremely vulnerable in an intense battlefield. The fact that the enemy fired more than 100 shoulder fired SAMs against IAF aircraft indicates not only the great intensity of the enemy air defences in the area but also the success of IAF tactics, especially after the first three days of the war during which not a single aircraft received even a scratch. The terrain in the Kargil area is 16,000 to 18,000 feet above sea level. The aircraft are, therefore, required to fly at about 20,000 feet. At these heights, the air density is 30% less than at sea level. This causes a reduction in weight that can be carried and also reduces the ability to manoeuvre as the radius of a turn is more than what it is at lower levels. The larger radius of turn reduces manoeuverability in the restricted width of the valley. The engine’s performance also deteriorates as for the same forward speed there is a lesser mass of air going into the jet engine of the fighter or helicopter. The non-standard air density also affects the trajectory of weapons. The firing, hence, may not be accurate. In the mountains, the targets are relatively small, spread-out and difficult to spot visually, particularly by pilots in high speed jets. The Indian airfields nearest to Kargil were Srinagar and Avantipur. Adampur near Jalandhar was also close enough to support air operations. Therefore, the IAF operated from these three bases. The planes used for ground attack were MiG-2ls, MiG- 23s, MiG-27s, Jaguars and the Mirage- 2000. The Mig-2l was built mainly for air interception with a secondary role of ground attack. However, it is capable of operating in restricted spaces which was of importance in the Kargil terrain. The MiG-23s and 27s are optimised for attacking targets on the ground. They can carry a load of 4 tonnes each. This could be a mix of weapons including cannon, rocket pods, free- fall and retarded bombs and smart weapons. It has a computerised bomb sight which enables accurate weapon delivery. These planes were, therefore, ideal for use in the mountainous terrain of Kargil. However, on May 27, the MiG-27 flown by Flt Lt Nachiketa, while attacking a target in Batalik sector, developed an engine trouble and he had to bailout. Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja, in a MiG-2l, went out of the way to locate the downed pilot and in the process was hit by a Pakistani surface- to-air missile (SAM). He ejected safely but his body bearing gun- wounds was returned subsequently. The state-of-the-art Mirage-2000s were used for electronic warfare, reconnaissance and ground attack. This fighter delivers its weapons with pinpoint accuracy. In addition to carrying free-fall bombs, it also fires the laser-guided bomb with deadly effects. In fact, it was this weapon that caused considerable devastation to Pakistani bunkers on the ridges at Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo. In the Mirage attack on Muntho Dhalo, Pakistani troops suffered 180 casualties. Because of the need to engage Pakistani targets in the valleys and on ridges, the slower helicopter gunship became an important requirement. The load-carrying Mi-17 was modified to carry 4 rocket pods with air-to-ground rockets. This helicopter proved effective in engaging Pakistani bunkers and troops. On May 28, while attacking Point 5140 in Tololing sector, one helicopter and its crew were lost to a Stinger heat-seeking missile. Thereafter, because of the number of SAMs being fired, helicopters resorted to evasive tactics but persisted with the attacks. The operations restricted to Kargil area did not lend themselves to the use of air power. There was a constraint of not crossing the Line of Control (LoC) to the Pakistan side. The IAF was, therefore, not at liberty to destroy the Pakistani supply lines and smash the logistic bases across the LoC. However, such attacks were done on Pakistani facilities on the Indian side of the LoC. The targets were identified along with the Army and engaged by day and by night in precision attacks by Mirage 2000s and Jaguars. Supply lines, logistic bases and enemy strong points were destroyed. As a result, the Army was able to pursue its operations at a faster rate and with fewer losses. To obviate the threat from SAMs, bombing was done accurately from 30,000 feet above sea level or about 10,000 feet above the terrain. In these high level attacks, the infantryman does not see his own fighters and, therefore, feels that air support is not there. It is estimated that in operation Vijay, about 700 intruders were killed by air action alone. The IAF has intercepted a number of enemy wireless transmissions indicating the effectiveness of IAF attacks. Pakistan Air Force fighters were picked up on the airborne radar of our fighters but the PAF planes did not cross to the Indian side of the LoC. Nevertheless, as a precaution, IAF , strike aircraft were accompanied by fighter escorts. After all, in the recent past no war has been won without control of the air space in which operations are conducted.

1 Dubai Jobs .com The First Place to Find a Job in Dubai
rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  Well looks like RC's got the situation under control.
  Post Kargil there was rumour going round in Pakiland, It seems the Pakistani Air Force has decided to cut costs, so they're only training their pilots to take off. The Indian pilots will take care of thy're landing :D
  Talking bout Russian fighter jets, Yaa the Migs are out dated. But recently a Sukhoi 30 developed a technical snag and crashed. That's not good. The Sukhoi's are cutting edge competing with the F23's. So there are issues with Russian products.
  Pakistan is still using F15's RB, planes literally extinct in the US fleet.
  Seriously RB have you seen Chinese cars? They're a joke, can you imagine the same brains making a plane? :lol:
  But ur analogy is flawed. Paki strike planes are mostly US, interceptors and reconnaissance are French, heavy-medium lifts are US and French while the basic trainers are Chinese.
  Offcourse those US and French planes are OUTDATED!
  Planes apart India uses Phalcon radars imported from Israel, top of the line.
  Besides RB have you heard of Abdul Qader Khan? Need any more credibility regarding ur 'esteemed' nuclear program? :lol:

sorry to dissapoint u mcl, but indians are pissing rubbish drivers. I mean if a fast car drives past them, they start shaking their legs and literually piss in their pants. So I dont see how exactly they gonna take care of pakis landing :D Pakistan Airforce has other ways of generating income which involves training pilots from KSA, UAE and other countries such as Libya.
MCL sorry but there is NO f-15s in Pakistans arsenal. Not sure where you got this info, they were using but stopped now. They have now 43 f-16s from USA and probably will get 18 to 20 more.
Got to agree with you, chinese are not good at making cars on their own but do remember I said Pakistan and Chinese making planes. two brains are certainly better then one ;).
Yes will agree that most planes that Pakistan have are either French or Chinese and only 40+ F-16s which are used for multi roles. Lifting planes, yes mostly are from USA, a few from Spain not FRANCE and one from RCs country good old USSR ;).
Sorry to dissapoint you MCL, but the trainers are from China and PAKISTAN. Most of them made in Pakistan.
Will agree with you that the French ones are outdated however the american planes are new and using the latest technology.
what about Abdual Qadeer Khan and the credibilities of the nuclear bomb? In my opinion he was a great man, he was a given a task to generate a nuclear bomb and he did exactly that. How good that nuclear bomb is? I guess you should ask the indians who dont want to attack pakistan just because of the fear that the pakis might launch their nuclear bomb. Or maybe you should ask the americans how they would feel if the Paki Nuclear bombs fall in the wrong hands ;). rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  err RB? Mind reading this?
  Air Operations
  From May 11 to May 25, ground troops supported by the Air Force tried to contain the threat, assessed the enemy dispositions and carried out various preparatory actions. Entry of the Air Force into combat action on May 26 represented a paradigm shift in the nature and prognosis of the conflict. In operation Safed Sagar, the Air Force carried out nearly 5,000 sorties of all types over 50-odd days of operations.
  The Western Air Command conducted the three-week-long exercise Trishul three weeks before Kargil. During Trishul, the IAF flew 5,000 sorties with 300 aircraft using 35,000 personnel and engaged targets at high elevation in the Himalayas. The IAF claimed to have flown 550 sorties in Kargil, though just about 80 were on or close to the target. Soon after Kargil, both the commander-in-chief and senior air staff officer of the Western Air Command were mysteriously transferred to the Central and Eastern commands.
  Operations in this terrain required special training and tactics. It was soon realised that greater skills and training were needed to attack the very small/miniature targets extant, often not visible to the naked eye.
  The shoulder-fired missile threat was omnipresent and there were no doubts about this. An IAF Canberra recce aircraft was damaged by a Pakistani Stinger fired possibly from across the LoC. On the second and third day of the operations, still in the learning curve, the IAF lost one MiG-21 fighter and one Mi-17 helicopter to shoulder-fired missiles by the enemy. In addition, one MiG-27 was lost on the second day due to engine failure just after the pilot had carried out successful attacks on one of the enemy's main supply dumps. These events only went to reinforce the tactics of the IAF in carrying out attacks from outside the Stinger SAM envelope and avoiding the use of helicopters for attack purposes. Attack helicopters have a certain utility in operations under relatively benign conditions but are extremely vulnerable in an intense battlefield. The fact that the enemy fired more than 100 shoulder fired SAMs against IAF aircraft indicates not only the great intensity of the enemy air defences in the area but also the success of IAF tactics, especially after the first three days of the war during which not a single aircraft received even a scratch.
  The terrain in the Kargil area is 16,000 to 18,000 feet above sea level. The aircraft are, therefore, required to fly at about 20,000 feet. At these heights, the air density is 30% less than at sea level. This causes a reduction in weight that can be carried and also reduces the ability to manoeuvre as the radius of a turn is more than what it is at lower levels. The larger radius of turn reduces manoeuverability in the restricted width of the valley. The engine’s performance also deteriorates as for the same forward speed there is a lesser mass of air going into the jet engine of the fighter or helicopter. The non-standard air density also affects the trajectory of weapons. The firing, hence, may not be accurate. In the mountains, the targets are relatively small, spread-out and difficult to spot visually, particularly by pilots in high speed jets.
  The Indian airfields nearest to Kargil were Srinagar and Avantipur. Adampur near Jalandhar was also close enough to support air operations. Therefore, the IAF operated from these three bases. The planes used for ground attack were MiG-2ls, MiG- 23s, MiG-27s, Jaguars and the Mirage- 2000. The Mig-2l was built mainly for air interception with a secondary role of ground attack. However, it is capable of operating in restricted spaces which was of importance in the Kargil terrain.
  The MiG-23s and 27s are optimised for attacking targets on the ground. They can carry a load of 4 tonnes each. This could be a mix of weapons including cannon, rocket pods, free- fall and retarded bombs and smart weapons. It has a computerised bomb sight which enables accurate weapon delivery. These planes were, therefore, ideal for use in the mountainous terrain of Kargil.
  However, on May 27, the MiG-27 flown by Flt Lt Nachiketa, while attacking a target in Batalik sector, developed an engine trouble and he had to bailout. Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja, in a MiG-2l, went out of the way to locate the downed pilot and in the process was hit by a Pakistani surface- to-air missile (SAM). He ejected safely but his body bearing gun- wounds was returned subsequently. The state-of-the-art Mirage-2000s were used for electronic warfare, reconnaissance and ground attack. This fighter delivers its weapons with pinpoint accuracy. In addition to carrying free-fall bombs, it also fires the laser-guided bomb with deadly effects. In fact, it was this weapon that caused considerable devastation to Pakistani bunkers on the ridges at Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo. In the Mirage attack on Muntho Dhalo, Pakistani troops suffered 180 casualties.
  Because of the need to engage Pakistani targets in the valleys and on ridges, the slower helicopter gunship became an important requirement. The load-carrying Mi-17 was modified to carry 4 rocket pods with air-to-ground rockets. This helicopter proved effective in engaging Pakistani bunkers and troops. On May 28, while attacking Point 5140 in Tololing sector, one helicopter and its crew were lost to a Stinger heat-seeking missile. Thereafter, because of the number of SAMs being fired, helicopters resorted to evasive tactics but persisted with the attacks.
  The operations restricted to Kargil area did not lend themselves to the use of air power. There was a constraint of not crossing the Line of Control (LoC) to the Pakistan side. The IAF was, therefore, not at liberty to destroy the Pakistani supply lines and smash the logistic bases across the LoC. However, such attacks were done on Pakistani facilities on the Indian side of the LoC. The targets were identified along with the Army and engaged by day and by night in precision attacks by Mirage 2000s and Jaguars. Supply lines, logistic bases and enemy strong points were destroyed. As a result, the Army was able to pursue its operations at a faster rate and with fewer losses.
  To obviate the threat from SAMs, bombing was done accurately from 30,000 feet above sea level or about 10,000 feet above the terrain. In these high level attacks, the infantryman does not see his own fighters and, therefore, feels that air support is not there. It is estimated that in operation Vijay, about 700 intruders were killed by air action alone. The IAF has intercepted a number of enemy wireless transmissions indicating the effectiveness of IAF attacks.
  Pakistan Air Force fighters were picked up on the airborne radar of our fighters but the PAF planes did not cross to the Indian side of the LoC. Nevertheless, as a precaution, IAF , strike aircraft were accompanied by fighter escorts. After all, in the recent past no war has been won without control of the air space in which operations are conducted.

i meant to say that both sides airforces didnt fire at each other. The airforces were just used for patrolling. rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  err RB? Mind reading this?
  Air Operations
  From May 11 to May 25, ground troops supported by the Air Force tried to contain the threat, assessed the enemy dispositions and carried out various preparatory actions. Entry of the Air Force into combat action on May 26 represented a paradigm shift in the nature and prognosis of the conflict. In operation Safed Sagar, the Air Force carried out nearly 5,000 sorties of all types over 50-odd days of operations.
  The Western Air Command conducted the three-week-long exercise Trishul three weeks before Kargil. During Trishul, the IAF flew 5,000 sorties with 300 aircraft using 35,000 personnel and engaged targets at high elevation in the Himalayas. The IAF claimed to have flown 550 sorties in Kargil, though just about 80 were on or close to the target. Soon after Kargil, both the commander-in-chief and senior air staff officer of the Western Air Command were mysteriously transferred to the Central and Eastern commands.
  Operations in this terrain required special training and tactics. It was soon realised that greater skills and training were needed to attack the very small/miniature targets extant, often not visible to the naked eye.
  The shoulder-fired missile threat was omnipresent and there were no doubts about this. An IAF Canberra recce aircraft was damaged by a Pakistani Stinger fired possibly from across the LoC. On the second and third day of the operations, still in the learning curve, the IAF lost one MiG-21 fighter and one Mi-17 helicopter to shoulder-fired missiles by the enemy. In addition, one MiG-27 was lost on the second day due to engine failure just after the pilot had carried out successful attacks on one of the enemy's main supply dumps. These events only went to reinforce the tactics of the IAF in carrying out attacks from outside the Stinger SAM envelope and avoiding the use of helicopters for attack purposes. Attack helicopters have a certain utility in operations under relatively benign conditions but are extremely vulnerable in an intense battlefield. The fact that the enemy fired more than 100 shoulder fired SAMs against IAF aircraft indicates not only the great intensity of the enemy air defences in the area but also the success of IAF tactics, especially after the first three days of the war during which not a single aircraft received even a scratch.
  The terrain in the Kargil area is 16,000 to 18,000 feet above sea level. The aircraft are, therefore, required to fly at about 20,000 feet. At these heights, the air density is 30% less than at sea level. This causes a reduction in weight that can be carried and also reduces the ability to manoeuvre as the radius of a turn is more than what it is at lower levels. The larger radius of turn reduces manoeuverability in the restricted width of the valley. The engine’s performance also deteriorates as for the same forward speed there is a lesser mass of air going into the jet engine of the fighter or helicopter. The non-standard air density also affects the trajectory of weapons. The firing, hence, may not be accurate. In the mountains, the targets are relatively small, spread-out and difficult to spot visually, particularly by pilots in high speed jets.
  The Indian airfields nearest to Kargil were Srinagar and Avantipur. Adampur near Jalandhar was also close enough to support air operations. Therefore, the IAF operated from these three bases. The planes used for ground attack were MiG-2ls, MiG- 23s, MiG-27s, Jaguars and the Mirage- 2000. The Mig-2l was built mainly for air interception with a secondary role of ground attack. However, it is capable of operating in restricted spaces which was of importance in the Kargil terrain.
  The MiG-23s and 27s are optimised for attacking targets on the ground. They can carry a load of 4 tonnes each. This could be a mix of weapons including cannon, rocket pods, free- fall and retarded bombs and smart weapons. It has a computerised bomb sight which enables accurate weapon delivery. These planes were, therefore, ideal for use in the mountainous terrain of Kargil.
  However, on May 27, the MiG-27 flown by Flt Lt Nachiketa, while attacking a target in Batalik sector, developed an engine trouble and he had to bailout. Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja, in a MiG-2l, went out of the way to locate the downed pilot and in the process was hit by a Pakistani surface- to-air missile (SAM). He ejected safely but his body bearing gun- wounds was returned subsequently. The state-of-the-art Mirage-2000s were used for electronic warfare, reconnaissance and ground attack. This fighter delivers its weapons with pinpoint accuracy. In addition to carrying free-fall bombs, it also fires the laser-guided bomb with deadly effects. In fact, it was this weapon that caused considerable devastation to Pakistani bunkers on the ridges at Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo. In the Mirage attack on Muntho Dhalo, Pakistani troops suffered 180 casualties.
  Because of the need to engage Pakistani targets in the valleys and on ridges, the slower helicopter gunship became an important requirement. The load-carrying Mi-17 was modified to carry 4 rocket pods with air-to-ground rockets. This helicopter proved effective in engaging Pakistani bunkers and troops. On May 28, while attacking Point 5140 in Tololing sector, one helicopter and its crew were lost to a Stinger heat-seeking missile. Thereafter, because of the number of SAMs being fired, helicopters resorted to evasive tactics but persisted with the attacks.
  The operations restricted to Kargil area did not lend themselves to the use of air power. There was a constraint of not crossing the Line of Control (LoC) to the Pakistan side. The IAF was, therefore, not at liberty to destroy the Pakistani supply lines and smash the logistic bases across the LoC. However, such attacks were done on Pakistani facilities on the Indian side of the LoC. The targets were identified along with the Army and engaged by day and by night in precision attacks by Mirage 2000s and Jaguars. Supply lines, logistic bases and enemy strong points were destroyed. As a result, the Army was able to pursue its operations at a faster rate and with fewer losses.
  To obviate the threat from SAMs, bombing was done accurately from 30,000 feet above sea level or about 10,000 feet above the terrain. In these high level attacks, the infantryman does not see his own fighters and, therefore, feels that air support is not there. It is estimated that in operation Vijay, about 700 intruders were killed by air action alone. The IAF has intercepted a number of enemy wireless transmissions indicating the effectiveness of IAF attacks.
  Pakistan Air Force fighters were picked up on the airborne radar of our fighters but the PAF planes did not cross to the Indian side of the LoC. Nevertheless, as a precaution, IAF , strike aircraft were accompanied by fighter escorts. After all, in the recent past no war has been won without control of the air space in which operations are conducted.

i meant to say that both sides airforces didnt fire at each other. The airforces were just used for patrolling. Speedhump

• rudeboy wrote:
  I dont see how exactly they gonna take care of pakis landing :D

What just flew over my head...was it a joke??? Somebody explain to him! :D
Typical rudeboy, can't even enter a serious thread without talking about arseholes and pissing..... Red Chief

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  did i say chinese aircrafts are GOOD or BAD? stupid a#s@ole read what I said and then bloody comment.
  Pakistan cant develop good copies of AK47 but they sure can develop nuclear bomb which scares the hell out of india :D
  

I told you that Chinese aircrafts are pirate identical copies of aged Russian ones (What another "brain" was thinkig about there I cannot undrstand) as well as Pakistani AK47. What kind of development "together" are you talking about? rudeboy

• Red Chief wrote:
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    
    did i say chinese aircrafts are GOOD or BAD? stupid a#s@ole read what I said and then bloody comment.
    Pakistan cant develop good copies of AK47 but they sure can develop nuclear bomb which scares the hell out of india :D
    
  
  I told you that Chinese aircrafts are pirate identical copies of aged Russian ones (What another "brain" was thinkig about there I cannot undrstand) as well as Pakistani AK47. What kind of development "together" are you talking about?

rc yes some of the chinese aircrafts are identical copies of aged russian ones. However the pakis have upgraded some of these planes with ROSE. But there are some planes in Pakistan arsenal which are not copies of russian planes. for example the JF17 have been made by Pakistan and China, using the western technology and parts. In fact the only thing russian about it is its engine. THE JF17 is the development i was talking about. Am suprised that a chief like you didnt know about it ;).
Would you like to me to explain to you how china and pakistan are developing other weapons ;).
humpty take a panadol mate :D Misery Called Life

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  sorry to dissapoint u mcl, but indians are pissing rubbish drivers. I mean if a fast car drives past them, they start shaking their legs and literually piss in their pants. So I dont see how exactly they gonna take care of pakis landing :D

Neither was that logical nor humorous. Sad Sad Sad!

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  Pakistan Airforce has other ways of generating income which involves training pilots from KSA, UAE and other countries such as Libya.

:lol: :lol: Why on earth would you believe that ur Pakis are training those forces? :lol: And which country will want such a service even if offered for free? :lol:

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  MCL sorry but there is NO f-15s in Pakistans arsenal. Not sure where you got this info, they were using but stopped now. They have now 43 f-16s from USA and probably will get 18 to 20 more.

Ok using an F16 helps whom? Are you fighting a war with tribals? India is using Sukhoi 30's, the F16's are comparable with Mig21's.

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  Got to agree with you, chinese are not good at making cars on their own but do remember I said Pakistan and Chinese making planes. two brains are certainly better then one ;).

Two brains are better than one no doubt, but in this case out of the two one is a liability.

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  Sorry to dissapoint you MCL, but the trainers are from China and PAKISTAN. Most of them made in Pakistan.

Why would I be dissapointed? A good college in UAE can make a flight simulator. What's the big deal?

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  what about Abdual Qadeer Khan and the credibilities of the nuclear bomb? In my opinion he was a great man, he was a given a task to generate a nuclear bomb and he did exactly that. How good that nuclear bomb is? I guess you should ask the indians who dont want to attack pakistan just because of the fear that the pakis might launch their nuclear bomb. Or maybe you should ask the americans how they would feel if the Paki Nuclear bombs fall in the wrong hands ;).

Sigh....The man will sell nuclear technology to the highest bidder. AQ Khan a great man, OJ Simpson a man of impeccable character right?
But following the mind boggling revelations of the Indian Nuclear program, maybe he was simply selling an atom bomb and calling it a nuclear one...
Although the revelations that India is not capable if 40KT should scare you. One atom bomb is all it'll take, it was previously believed that an Indian nuclear strike in Pakiland would affect Indian northern states as well.
India does not attack Pakiland because it believes in humanity, not because we're afraid.
I remember a time not so long ago during Mrs Bhutto, Sharif and Musharraf's time, you people would finance terrorists in Kashmir and then call them freedom fighters. Today when ur government has it's back against the wall, you'll don't seem to be calling them freedom fighters no more. Instead you've sent in ur armies to exterminate them.
As usual some will only learn after being bitten!
Disclaimer:- A tribal may fail to understand such logic. Misery Called Life

• Speedhump wrote:
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    I dont see how exactly they gonna take care of pakis landing :D
  
  What just flew over my head...was it a joke??? Somebody explain to him! :D
  Typical rudeboy, can't even enter a serious thread without talking about arseholes and pissing.....

Oh I see RB did not comprehend? Lemme rephrase
Post Kargil there was rumour going round in Pakiland, It seems the Pakistani Air Force has decided to cut costs, so they're only training their pilots to take off. Cuz sure enough Indian pilots will bring em down :lol: Speedhump He still won't get it. Mention air to air missiles, there, now the penny surely must have dropped.... ;) Red Chief

• rudeboy wrote:
  In fact the only thing russian about it is its engine. :D

Only engine. Continue joking? The engine costs more than the rest aircraft and the most technically sophisticated part. 30 years China couldn't have copied it.
JF17 is a cheap version that Chinese downgarded for Pakistan only. Where you found there another brain and Western technology and parts is unclear for me? French engine costs more than all XF17. rudeboy boys i only wanted to point out that the information you had about pakistan was either wrong or outdated. I would luv to sit here and discuss who has the best pilots, who has the best planes or who has the best nukes. Honestly would love to, but seriously I got a life to get on with :D. MCL its a shame you dont know who I am or what I do otherwise I would have love to sit down and told you the truth about Qadeer Khan. In short I know the guy. How I know him? Sorry cant disclose this information ONLINE, especially when you got big brother listening ;). Like I said I know the guy, as I said before he is a good man, he was given a task and he achieved it. He didnt sell any nuclear or atom bombs or any nuclear bomb technology to anyone. The guy was a scientist not a businessman. He was a patrotic guy not a businessman. For your information any weapons or nuclear development in Pakistan are under the suprevision of some Generals. These guys also suprevise the sales of any arms Pakistan makes. Pakistan NUKE technology werent sold by AQK but by some generals who wanted to make some quick dollars. When the americans found out, they put pressure on Musharif and he found a perfect scapegoat in AQK. The media doesnt tell the truth all the time. RC yes the only thing the JF17 has russian is the engine. Sorry to dissappoint you but they found out that the russian engines were rubbish and now pakistan have ordered some SAAB engines from Swedens. shows alot about russian technology ;). I didnt say that JF17 was good or bad, I just wanted to show to you that Pakistan and China can develop such planes. China certainly does have the technology but they lack in people to make the full use of them. Thats where Pakistan comes in. Pakistan is able to generate people like Qadeer Khan who are able to make full use of chinese technology. Why on earth would I believe that Pakistan would train forces from the MIddle East including KSA? Its maybe because I have seen them thats why duh lol or maybe http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2008/0128_saudi_arabia_riedel.aspx MCL you underestimate Pakistan. MCL i dont want to compare sukhois with f16s. Like I said you had wrong or outdated info about Pakistans arsenal and I just politely corrected ya ;) thats all mate. lol India believes in HUMANITY? Thats good mate. I love that one. I guess thats why the Indians will not allow national self determination poll in Kashmir for the people of Kashmir to choose for once and for all what they want to do. I guess India believes in HUMANITY when its forces rape and murder kashmiri women. HMMMMM. Who said Pakistan is exterminating terroists in Kashmir :S Where do you get this information from mate?? Dont tell me the indian secret services sitting in Kerala sucking on some mangoes on some beach :D Red Chief

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  RC yes the only thing the JF17 has russian is the engine. Sorry to dissappoint you but they found out that the russian engines were rubbish and now pakistan have ordered some SAAB engines from Swedens. shows alot about russian technology ;). I didnt say that JF17 was good or bad, I just wanted to show to you that Pakistan and China can develop such planes.

Not so simple, mate. China re-exported those engines without permission of Russia. Previously those engine was designated for Russian aircrafts, those was going to assemble on Chinese factories with using some Chinese parts according to agreement without permission to re-export neighter aircrafts nor Russian parts for them.
After sounded scandal Russia regected further supply of engines and Pakistan is forced to use the Chinese stock only.
SAAB engine costs more than all aircraft with Russian engine. It makes all those project very dubious.
India has similar Russian aircraft at half price of Chinese one with SAAB engine.
Once more It was China who developed the aircarft w/o engine FOR (not with) Pakistan. Pakistan was out of design. Misery Called Life

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  MCL its a shame you dont know who I am or what I do otherwise I would have love to sit down and told you the truth about Qadeer Khan. In short I know the guy. How I know him? Sorry cant disclose this information ONLINE, especially when you got big brother listening ;). Like I said I know the guy, as I said before he is a good man, he was given a task and he achieved it. He didnt sell any nuclear or atom bombs or any nuclear bomb technology to anyone. The guy was a scientist not a businessman. He was a patrotic guy not a businessman. For your information any weapons or nuclear development in Pakistan are under the suprevision of some Generals. These guys also suprevise the sales of any arms Pakistan makes. Pakistan NUKE technology werent sold by AQK but by some generals who wanted to make some quick dollars. When the americans found out, they put pressure on Musharif and he found a perfect scapegoat in AQK. The media doesnt tell the truth all the time.
  

You realise what you've done with that explanation? To defend one man you've basically indicted the entire defense system.
So basically the system is corrupt, dangerous and incapable, more powerful than the great AQ Khan and are still operating under impunity.
That won't please ur Pakistani patriots one bit.
Talk bout being penny wise pound foolish :lol:
Hey a couple of posts back was'nt it you who was lamenting bout ur inability to swing a deal your way at Emal? Apparently you were beaten to it by a coterie of Malbari's eating Mangoes. And now here you are, all powerful secret service agent, with contacts amongst the high and mighty.
Well dude I would suggest you use those contacts in ur business dealings rather than on a forum! :D

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  MCL you underestimate Pakistan.
  MCL i dont want to compare sukhois with f16s. Like I said you had wrong or outdated info about Pakistans arsenal and I just politely corrected ya ;) thats all mate.
  

You know in retrospect who knows? I don't do dog fights and neither does the media report on them, so I can't be certain...You think you have a fine airforce and capable pilots? Great!
I mean I appreciate excellance wherever it is. And if you guys are building world class engines than brilliant.
So what next RB? The next Lockheed Martin will be a Paki company right?

Regarding Humanity? I'll give you that one. The violence in India in the name of religion is apalling.

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  Who said Pakistan is exterminating terroists in Kashmir :S Where do you get this information from mate?? Dont tell me the indian secret services sitting in Kerala sucking on some mangoes on some beach :D

You seriously lack cohesion don't you? I said you people are waging a war against terrorism...now how does it matter if ur doing it in Kashmir or Swat?
Honestly I'm done with my negative talk regarding Pakistan (you could follow suit if you wish too). Cuz it's not how I feel about Pakistanis. I mean we're just talking bout war wagering machines with no purpose but to kill. Lets focus on something positive!
Hmm so where do we go from here
We could talk bout technology, like did Pakistan discover water on the moon? Hmmm... ( Just Jokin :lol: )
Oh lets just talk bout snow leopards, cuz we both agree they are majestic creatures. Oh and ur women are drop dead gorgeous too :wink: Red Chief MCL, did you read an article about Khan Nukem in Sunday Times a week ago? Investigation: Nuclear scandal - Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan The Pakistani scientist who passed nuclear secrets to the world’s rogue states has been muzzled by his government. rudeboy

• Red Chief wrote:
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    
    RC yes the only thing the JF17 has russian is the engine. Sorry to dissappoint you but they found out that the russian engines were rubbish and now pakistan have ordered some SAAB engines from Swedens. shows alot about russian technology ;). I didnt say that JF17 was good or bad, I just wanted to show to you that Pakistan and China can develop such planes.
  
  Not so simple, mate. China re-exported those engines without permission of Russia. Previously those engine was designated for Russian aircrafts, those was going to assemble on Chinese factories with using some Chinese parts according to agreement without permission to re-export neighter aircrafts nor Russian parts for them.
  After sounded scandal Russia regected further supply of engines and Pakistan is forced to use the Chinese stock only.
  SAAB engine costs more than all aircraft with Russian engine. It makes all those project very dubious.
  India has similar Russian aircraft at half price of Chinese one with SAAB engine.
  Once more It was China who developed the aircarft w/o engine FOR (not with) Pakistan. Pakistan was out of design.

JF17 are made in Pakistan so I dont see how you can say Pakistan was out of design!! Red Chief Assembled? Yes, but from Chinese and Russian parts. Development was fully made in China. Pakistan was out of business. Some MIG-29 has been also assembled in India. That didn't make MIG-29 Indian development. Right? rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    
    MCL its a shame you dont know who I am or what I do otherwise I would have love to sit down and told you the truth about Qadeer Khan. In short I know the guy. How I know him? Sorry cant disclose this information ONLINE, especially when you got big brother listening ;). Like I said I know the guy, as I said before he is a good man, he was given a task and he achieved it. He didnt sell any nuclear or atom bombs or any nuclear bomb technology to anyone. The guy was a scientist not a businessman. He was a patrotic guy not a businessman. For your information any weapons or nuclear development in Pakistan are under the suprevision of some Generals. These guys also suprevise the sales of any arms Pakistan makes. Pakistan NUKE technology werent sold by AQK but by some generals who wanted to make some quick dollars. When the americans found out, they put pressure on Musharif and he found a perfect scapegoat in AQK. The media doesnt tell the truth all the time.
    
  
  You realise what you've done with that explanation? To defend one man you've basically indicted the entire defense system.
  So basically the system is corrupt, dangerous and incapable, more powerful than the great AQ Khan and are still operating under impunity.
  That won't please ur Pakistani patriots one bit.
  Talk bout being penny wise pound foolish :lol:
  Hey a couple of posts back was'nt it you who was lamenting bout ur inability to swing a deal your way at Emal? Apparently you were beaten to it by a coterie of Malbari's eating Mangoes. And now here you are, all powerful secret service agent, with contacts amongst the high and mighty.
  Well dude I would suggest you use those contacts in ur business dealings rather than on a forum! :D
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    
    MCL you underestimate Pakistan.
    MCL i dont want to compare sukhois with f16s. Like I said you had wrong or outdated info about Pakistans arsenal and I just politely corrected ya ;) thats all mate.
    
  
  You know in retrospect who knows? I don't do dog fights and neither does the media report on them, so I can't be certain...You think you have a fine airforce and capable pilots? Great!
  I mean I appreciate excellance wherever it is. And if you guys are building world class engines than brilliant.
  So what next RB? The next Lockheed Martin will be a Paki company right?
  
  Regarding Humanity? I'll give you that one. The violence in India in the name of religion is apalling.
  
  • rudeboy wrote:
    
    Who said Pakistan is exterminating terroists in Kashmir :S Where do you get this information from mate?? Dont tell me the indian secret services sitting in Kerala sucking on some mangoes on some beach :D
  
  You seriously lack cohesion don't you? I said you people are waging a war against terrorism...now how does it matter if ur doing it in Kashmir or Swat?
  Honestly I'm done with my negative talk regarding Pakistan (you could follow suit if you wish too). Cuz it's not how I feel about Pakistanis. I mean we're just talking bout war wagering machines with no purpose but to kill. Lets focus on something positive!
  Hmm so where do we go from here
  We could talk bout technology, like did Pakistan discover water on the moon? Hmmm... ( Just Jokin :lol: )
  Oh lets just talk bout snow leopards, cuz we both agree they are majestic creatures. Oh and ur women are drop dead gorgeous too :wink:

mcl take a chill pill mate. I am not saying Pakistan ARMY is the best nor does it have the best planes or the best pilots. I just corrected you with the old information you had.
Yes I agree with you its the generals in Pakistan Army who have literually f*Ked up the country. They have sold their souls to the Americans. Pakistani politicians are the same. Mind you I wouldnt be suprised if some indian politicians are in American pockets.
No MCL I dont have contacts, I just said I know Qadeer Khan thats all. Secondly I dont use contacts to do business nor do I give bribes under the table to make sure that the deal swings my way. Thats what indians do. Its an indian mafia out there. They will use all the dirty tricks to insure that they get the business ;). Dirty unprofessional buggers. Yes EMAL didnt buy from me, so what its EMAL who looses out not me mate. There are plenty more EMALS coming up in the region ;). Emal will eventually find out themselves how they were ripped off so some maloo could earn lil bobs under the table.
I will agree that Pakistanis are killing machines. Thats why the americans used them to kick the soviets out of Afghanistan and thats why Pakistan army is kicking talibans ass when USA thinks is best to car bomb and use UAVS on the taliban. HMMMM :D
no mate Pakistan didnt discover anything. The only thing they were capable of producing in a short time was a nuke. And they did this without anyones help. Do you know the processes of making a nuclear bomb? do some research and you will find out how long it usually takes and do some research and see how quickly the pakis did it. is it good? i seriously dont know but why dont u ask the indians ;)
MCL you are taking your words back now. You know you said the pakis are exterminating terroists in KASHMIR. MATE you know you said that dont make me post your comment alrite. KASHMIR AND SWAT are completely different places. There is no military actions in Kashmir meaning there are no terroists in that area. It is in SWAT which touches the Afghanistan border. I guess you werent good in geography. Swat is northern West pakistan and Kashmir is norther east pakistan :D lol
yeh snow cats are majestic, shame they arent in India but i guess your life is not over since you have the monkey, the cow and the snake :D.
Honestly speaking how lame can you get? This topic was started by yourself and it was about nukes etc etc and here you are discussing about paki women? It seems like i hit a nerve ;) take it easy mate, I dont want to sit here and waste my time with you comparing the two countries, its forces, nukes or even its women :D you guys were commentiing and had either old or false information and I corrected ya thats all.
RC wanted to know about the close relationship between china and pakistan and I showed him the link.
You wanted to know which country in the world would want to use Pakistans airfoce services and I showed you the link.
in my opinion its a shame that Pakistan and India are being used by USA to do its dirty jobs. If Pakistan and India put their differences a side they can become super power overnight. rudeboy

• Red Chief wrote:
  Assembled? Yes, but from Chinese and Russian parts.
  Development was fully made in China. Pakistan was out of business.
  Some MIG-29 has been also assembled in India. That didn't make MIG-29 Indian development. Right?

got a link to prove that they are using chinese or russian parts? rudeboy rc full history of jf17 here there is no mention of RUSSIAN parts anywhere, in fact it does mention that the Russian Radar used in the protype would brake down thus they decided to use chinese radar in the final production of the planes. Also have a look in the upgrades which mentions how the plane can be upgraded with French, Italian or even British Parts. Red Chief The aircraft was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute).
It was doungradable cheap version for Pakistan only. China has no intension to produce this aircraft for own air force but emphasize on more advanced J-10 4+ generation project.
Russia supplied its Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine for the aircraft.
China had reportedly even bought 100 Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia for installing on JF-17s, with an option to contract for another 400 engines.
In January 2007, however, Forecast International reported that Russia had refused permission for the transfer of its RD-93 engines, derived from the RD-33 that equips the MiG-29.
/ rudeboy

• Red Chief wrote:
  The aircraft was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute).
  It was doungradable cheap version for Pakistan only. China has no intension to produce this aircraft for own air force but emphasize on more advanced J-10 4+ generation project.
  Russia supplied its Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine for the aircraft.
  China had reportedly even bought 100 Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia for installing on JF-17s, with an option to contract for another 400 engines.
  In January 2007, however, Forecast International reported that Russia had refused permission for the transfer of its RD-93 engines, derived from the RD-33 that equips the MiG-29.
  /

yes the only thing russian on the plane was the engine. Other parts like radar or HUD etc etc are not russian.
by the way the russians were able to re-export the engines to Pakistan.
Latest is they are not going to be using the russian engines anymore. Misery Called Life RB I'm tired of having to literally Spell out everything to you.... Firstly I never said that you people are going after terrorists in Kashmir. What I did say is that during the peak of the terrorist movement in India occupied Kashmir, the Pak governmnet would defend those terrorists as freedom fighters. Now those very freedom fighters are on rampage in Pakistan exploding bombs in hotels and police camps. I wonder how those terrorists became so powerful? Who created them? And your army now has to destroy what it created! At the beginning of this thread you stated that Pakistani nuclear technology came from China. Now ur saying that you developed it all on ur own? Talk bout contadiction! And finally the purpose of this thread was not to talk about nuclear warfare and the destruction a 45KT is capable of.....it was to discuss propoganda by the Indian media. Your stull gung ho bout apparantly correcting false info? What false info? I stated that at the very most you may have a 15 or 20 KT bomb. You replied that since your bomb is borrowed from Chinese technology it's on par with the Chinese one. That analogy is simply crap! Talk bout being content with sloppy seconds. Oh you also spoke bout planes, well stay content with ur Pakistani simulators and primitive F16's. :D I tried to intiate a peaceful discussion....as usual ur tribal mentality blinded you. So what's new :D rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  RB I'm tired of having to literally Spell out everything to you....
  Firstly I never said that you people are going after terrorists in Kashmir.
  What I did say is that during the peak of the terrorist movement in India occupied Kashmir, the Pak governmnet would defend those terrorists as freedom fighters.
  Now those very freedom fighters are on rampage in Pakistan exploding bombs in hotels and police camps. I wonder how those terrorists became so powerful? Who created them? And your army now has to destroy what it created!
  At the beginning of this thread you stated that Pakistani nuclear technology came from China. Now ur saying that you developed it all on ur own? Talk bout contadiction!
  And finally the purpose of this thread was not to talk about nuclear warfare and the destruction a 45KT is capable of.....it was to discuss propoganda by the Indian media.
  Your stull gung ho bout apparantly correcting false info? What false info? I stated that at the very most you may have a 15 or 20 KT bomb. You replied that since your bomb is borrowed from Chinese technology it's on par with the Chinese one. That analogy is simply crap! Talk bout being content with sloppy seconds.
  Oh you also spoke bout planes, well stay content with ur Pakistani simulators and primitive F16's. :D
  I tried to intiate a peaceful discussion....as usual ur tribal mentality blinded you. So what's new :D

mcl we all know that freedom fighters were generated by USA. USA were and still are bunch of cowards who couldnt attack the soviets fearing that if there was a USA Soviet war in Afghanistan there could be a USA soviet war in USA itself. Thus they used Pakistan and generated a monster called Al Qaeda. The CIA and FBI funded these guys and gave them guns so they could kick the soviets out of AFghanistan. USA could have attacked the soviets but they didnt because they are cowards mate.
Over the time these monsters became more and more evil, they eventually had say in the local rules and were running drug business. These guys also became double agents. Whoever paid the largest amount of dollars, they were ready to do their dirty jobs i.e plant a bomb here and there. Pakistan, India and USA eventually started using them.
Mind you there are some genuine freedom fighters in Kashmir and the difference between those guys and terroists is that they just dont blow themselves up to cause civilian casualties in fact they target the indian army and its illegal stay in kashmir. Obviously pakistan helps these guys out as well and even still do under the table even though USA has a close eye on Pakistan.
Pakistan Army is only destroying the terroists not the freedom fighters. Pakistan is huge mate and different regions have different groups of people. You will not find pakthoons in kashmir fighting the indians, you will find kashmiris there. Just like in Swat you will find pakhtoons and foreign fighters finding the paki army not the kashmiri. In baloochistan you wont find pakhtoons or kashmiri fighters but baloochis obviously.
Pakistan and China have close relationships. It doesnt matter if the technology was western, chinese or pakis. The end story is that Pakistan a new country i.e 50 years old with a population of over 100 million people, with no major industries and plagued with terroism and international intervention now and then, have been able to produce a nuclear bomb. You shouldnt compare India with Pakistan. India has been there for ages, they had an established army, navy and pak force. Pakistan didnt have any of this, they had to establish them and they did that in 50 years. They might not be good but they sure are able to put up a fight ;). The same goes for its Nukes.
When the brits left india they had left well established industries such as steel etc etc whereas the pakis didnt have anything, they had to start from the scratch and thats what exactly they did although i feel they could still do more. But when you have problems such as overpopulation, terroism, hostile neighbours etc etc then you cant certainly focus on the growth of the country.
it doesnt matter if we or you have a 15 or 20 kt bomb or whether it has been borrowed from chinese technology or russian technology. What matters the most is 1) to be able to develop a nuke 2) which is able to do its job. Why do you think India keeps on making so much noise about Pakistani nukes? I am sure they know the capabilities of the Paki Nukes otherwise they would have sit down and kept their mouth shut. Also the Saudis are deliverying 50,000 barrels to Pakistan so that the two countries share nuclear bomb information. Hmmmm I dont think they will be giving 50,000 barrels to Pakistan had their bomb been rubbish!!!
again you are being childish by having a childish swipe at me by saying I should be content with our simulators and f16. In fact I am happy for Pakistan that it is able to start from scratch and that its able to survive these period of time. Also I am happy that Pakistan is able to co-exist with a neighbour such as India ;)
You had false info about the Pakistani planes. You said that pakistan has outdated f-15s and you didnt mention anything about the f-16s. Can you show me a link which states that pakistan has f-15s? I dont think you can and I corrected ya thats all mate. Now obviously you didnt like me correcting you so had decided to compare the two countries, its pussy cats, religions, people and certainly its women too.
if you want to discuss about anything else you are more then welcome to start a new thread. As for this thread, Pakistan and India use propoganda to keep its population happy. Misery Called Life Time to bust ur bubble RB, So you say that the highly advanced Paki Airforce is training the Saudis? And that Saudi is selling oil to Pakistan with no restrictions in supply? The missing link is a concept called Countertrade! Now quite evidently no country wants the Paki rupee and the Pakistani treasury does not have enough dollars. So the government resorts to barter. Selling off services, which includes free land to Saudi Arabia for agricultural purposes, military assistance etc Basically RB there is no free meal. rudeboy

• Misery Called Life wrote:
  Time to bust ur bubble RB,
  So you say that the highly advanced Paki Airforce is training the Saudis?
  And that Saudi is selling oil to Pakistan with no restrictions in supply?
  The missing link is a concept called Countertrade!
  Now quite evidently no country wants the Paki rupee and the Pakistani treasury does not have enough dollars.
  So the government resorts to barter. Selling off services, which includes free land to Saudi Arabia for agricultural purposes, military assistance etc
  Basically RB there is no free meal.

yes MCL the paki airforce does train the saudis in exchange of barrels of oils. Not that many people know that. Politicians know it but do you think they will tell the public?
MCL all I did was to show you the close relationship between Pakistan and KSA.
KSA and Pakistan do have close nuclear development links too and in exchange the Saudis will invest in Pakistan Electricity Generating companies.
Nothing in this world is free and it comes at a price. But the fact is that both countries are getting a good deal. Pakistan getting 10,000 barrels of oil while the Saudis get trained by Pakistan Airforce personels. desertdudeshj Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS ! I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country. abyssdesire

• desertdudeshj wrote:
  Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !
  I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.

Oh come on now, that's not fair. I have been to Pakistan multiple times and I am not even a Pakistani. I found them to be very accommodating, generous, and helpful. Especially the Northern areas (Murree, Swat area). On my most recent trip I was advised by the Canadian Forces not to go there, at least not reveal that I am enlisted. I went anyway. Our guide was fantastic. The people were nice. The food was nicer. Even though the area went through a deadly ordeal (earthquake 2006), people were really upbeat.
Do you know what is bringing down Pakistan? Pakistani's bad mouthing Pakistan. It creates a very negative image for people who may actually give the country a shot. Sure it isn't the best when it comes to hygiene or politics. But look at it's beauty, the strength in their family system, affordable cost of living, hard working people.
People blame the government. What do you expect from them? With their limited resources, they try their best. Look at Karachi now. The new mayor who belongs to the disputed party is doing great things for the city. People cant stop praising the guy.
Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way? Red Chief

• abyssdesire wrote:
  
  Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India . Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?

He-he. Look at the OP, very negative pro-Western point of view on India. Two guys have something in common - both of them are stateless cosmopolitans. :wink: rudeboy

• abyssdesire wrote:
  
  • desertdudeshj wrote:
    Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !
    I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.
  
  Oh come on now, that's not fair. I have been to Pakistan multiple times and I am not even a Pakistani. I found them to be very accommodating, generous, and helpful. Especially the Northern areas (Murree, Swat area). On my most recent trip I was advised by the Canadian Forces not to go there, at least not reveal that I am enlisted. I went anyway. Our guide was fantastic. The people were nice. The food was nicer. Even though the area went through a deadly ordeal (earthquake 2006), people were really upbeat.
  Do you know what is bringing down Pakistan? Pakistani's bad mouthing Pakistan. It creates a very negative image for people who may actually give the country a shot. Sure it isn't the best when it comes to hygiene or politics. But look at it's beauty, the strength in their family system, affordable cost of living, hard working people.
  People blame the government. What do you expect from them? With their limited resources, they try their best. Look at Karachi now. The new mayor who belongs to the disputed party is doing great things for the city. People cant stop praising the guy.
  Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?

I got to agree with him here that its a shame that Pakis bad mouth pakistan. Although I got to disagree that indians dont, they do it too mate ;). But the fact is everyone does it now and then. Ask the brits how they feel about their country being taken over by foreigners?
Anyways both the countries are nice places to go to and live in. But they got a long way to go. It doesnt help the two countries when they have certain hurdles like HUGE population, electricity problems, hostile neighbours, internal terroism and ofcourse USA itself.
Do you know that both the countries spent BILLIONS of dollars on its forces in KASHMIR? Why not use that money to create jobs? create a better infrastructure? Or invest in security or even in generating electricity?
They wont because both the countries are run by corrupt "DEMOCRATIC" politicians. Politicians, army generals are getting richer and richer by the day while the normal ppl suffer. Bora Bora

• rudeboy wrote:
  
  • abyssdesire wrote:
    
    • desertdudeshj wrote:
      Well I just say. Being a Paki myself and all and not being brainwashed by paki propoganda......Pakistan is a POS !
      I might moan about how badly this place treats us brown expats etc etc but everytime I have to go the Pakiland ( Thankgod its been almost 13 years since the last time ) or the embassy, consulate. I thank God I dont live in that god forsaken country.
    
    Oh come on now, that's not fair. I have been to Pakistan multiple times and I am not even a Pakistani. I found them to be very accommodating, generous, and helpful. Especially the Northern areas (Murree, Swat area). On my most recent trip I was advised by the Canadian Forces not to go there, at least not reveal that I am enlisted. I went anyway. Our guide was fantastic. The people were nice. The food was nicer. Even though the area went through a deadly ordeal (earthquake 2006), people were really upbeat.
    Do you know what is bringing down Pakistan? Pakistani's bad mouthing Pakistan. It creates a very negative image for people who may actually give the country a shot. Sure it isn't the best when it comes to hygiene or politics. But look at it's beauty, the strength in their family system, affordable cost of living, hard working people.
    People blame the government. What do you expect from them? With their limited resources, they try their best. Look at Karachi now. The new mayor who belongs to the disputed party is doing great things for the city. People cant stop praising the guy.
    Funny thing is, I barely hear Indians saying anything negative about India. Why Pakistani's cant be the same way?
  
  I got to agree with him here that its a shame that Pakis bad mouth pakistan. Although I got to disagree that indians dont, they do it too mate ;). But the fact is everyone does it now and then. Ask the brits how they feel about their country being taken over by foreigners?
  Anyways both the countries are nice places to go to and live in. But they got a long way to go. It doesnt help the two countries when they have certain hurdles like HUGE population, electricity problems, hostile neighbours, internal terroism and ofcourse USA itself.
  Do you know that both the countries spent BILLIONS of dollars on its forces in KASHMIR? Why not use that money to create jobs? create a better infrastructure? Or invest in security or even in generating electricity?
  They wont because both the countries are run by corrupt "DEMOCRATIC" politicians. Politicians, army generals are getting richer and richer by the day while the normal ppl suffer.

If you lived in a country that had a huge amount of immigrants you would understand the complaints raised. They have a huge negative impact on the economy of the country they fled to as many of them go on the dole. On top of that, they reap government benefits that those born and raised in said country wouldn't qualify for.
For instance: in the US the social security system, that is funded by Americans by working, was tapped into to provide "income" to many immigrants, who never worked a day or paid a red penny into the system. For several years there was alot of talk - by the government - that the social security system would be broke and that those who would retire in the future may very well not see a retirement income. This all due to the US being very generous in it's mindset.
Carved on the Statue of Liberty:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
In the states even children who are illegal immigrants are allowed a free education, which causes overcrowding in classrooms. The are provided free medical. The parents generally work off the books so there is no paying taxes, the money gets sent back "home".
Well they asked for it, and they got it, and they are still coming through that "golden door". The US, and every other country that is burdened with a large population of non-productive immigrants, should take care of those who are homegrown, not the majority of immigrants who take rather than give. Berrin

Quote:

• This all due to the US being very generous in it's mindset.

Really?
Please also remember that the rich economies get richer on the expense of the developing/ poor nations…
If the cost of those raw materials and natural resources your business/states men had bought from poor countries were to be labeled as high as the rich market prices than No way today’s wealthy countries would be as advanced and richer than any other developing or poor countries…
Again if the rich countries still continue to stay rich and wealthy it’s also because their business/statesmen used or still using the poor nationals as cheap labor for their economic manufacturing of goods and services only to sell them back at much higher prices to the same ol developing/ poor countries..
Today I still wonder why those poor nations despite trading or whatever are still poor and exploited..
These days if developed countries have influx of immigrants then I think we must think about it twice before immigrants criticized..
I guess under the current economic struggles and corrupt capitalist system the rich countries maybe can’t afford to pay out some of their wealth back to the poor nations to support their development programs and therefore the quickest way to tackle world poverty maybe lies behind allowing some sort of loose immigration policies to take place and free living on dolls, this time of course on the expense of the rich country citizens (so it is a chain reaction)
To stop immigration and economic wars, the wealth of the world should be balanced and evenly distributed between rich and poor nations and exploiting labor/markets must be stopped, to do that every country must pay attention to curve the problems of corrupt wild capitalist system and its financial mechanism, world trade laws and local policies etc. and for goodness sake those off shore heavens and black money markets and hidden accounts all should be transparent and controlled very well for the benefits of the societies. Bora Bora

• Berrin wrote:
  
  Quote:
  
  • This all due to the US being very generous in it's mindset.
  
  Really?
  Please also remember that the rich economies get richer on the expense of the developing/ poor nations…
  If the cost of those raw materials and natural resources your business/states men had bought from poor countries were to be labeled as high as the rich market prices than No way today’s wealthy countries would be as advanced and richer than any other developing or poor countries…
  Again if the rich countries still continue to stay rich and wealthy it’s also because their business/statesmen used or still using the poor nationals as cheap labor for their economic manufacturing of goods and services only to sell them back at much higher prices to the same ol developing/ poor countries..
  Today I still wonder why those poor nations despite trading or whatever are still poor and exploited..
  These days if developed countries have influx of immigrants then I think we must think about it twice before immigrants criticized..
  I guess under the current economic struggles and corrupt capitalist system the rich countries maybe can’t afford to pay out some of their wealth back to the poor nations to support their development programs and therefore the quickest way to tackle world poverty maybe lies behind allowing some sort of loose immigration policies to take place and free living on dolls, this time of course on the expense of the rich country citizens (so it is a chain reaction)
  To stop immigration and economic wars, the wealth of the world should be balanced and evenly distributed between rich and poor nations and exploiting labor/markets must be stopped, to do that every country must pay attention to curve the problems of corrupt wild capitalist system and its financial mechanism, world trade laws and local policies etc. and for goodness sake those off shore heavens and black money markets and hidden accounts all should be transparent and controlled very well for the benefits of the societies.

Although well meaning, you thinking is not realistic.
As to my quote: I was referring to immigrants/immigration and the impact they have on countries, which realistically speaking, could be curbed by governments. Putting quotas obviously didn't help. Ireland has one of the smallest quotas allowed by the US, yet, they are the most hard working people I have ever seen.
I for one, as an American, born and bred, resent the special treatment immigrants get while not contributing to the economy other than buying basic needs!!! Red Chief

• Bora Bora wrote:
  Ireland has one of the smallest quotas allowed by the US, yet, they are the most hard working people I have ever seen.

One notorious Brit told me that they are rather most drinking people in the World after Russians probably. That's why most pubs in Dubai labeled by Irish surnames.

• Bora Bora wrote:
  
  I for one, as an American, born and bred, resent the special treatment immigrants get while not contributing to the economy other than buying basic needs!!!

Darling, it still sounds like Russian kike ate free soup that was designated to some Muslim convert.
I've just seen a movie "Crossing over" which reflects the view from the other side of the fence after recent toughening policy against illegal immigrants. It looks not Ok in details but I think it was tough but right move.
On the other hand I cannot understand your negative attitude to LEGAL immigrants.
It sounds childish if your attitude is based on your one personal experience only. Bora Bora

• Red Chief wrote:
  
  • Bora Bora wrote:
    Ireland has one of the smallest quotas allowed by the US, yet, they are the most hard working people I have ever seen.
  
  One notorious Brit told me that they are rather most drinking people in the World after Russians probably. That's why most pubs in Dubai labeled by Irish surnames.
  
  • Bora Bora wrote:
    
    I for one, as an American, born and bred, resent the special treatment immigrants get while not contributing to the economy other than buying basic needs!!!
  
  Darling, it still sounds like Russian kike ate free soup that was designated to some Muslim convert.
  I've just seen a movie "Crossing over" which reflects the view from the other side of the fence after recent toughening policy against illegal immigrants. It looks not Ok in details but I think it was tough but right move.
  On the other hand I cannot understand your negative attitude to LEGAL immigrants.
  It sounds childish if your attitude is based on your one personal experience only.

My attitude is not based on any personal experience. It's based on what is going on in the US because of the huge number of illegal immigrants. For the most part, legal immigrants can and do work and contribute into the system. They don't have to go "underground" and work off the books. They take advantage of the freedom to pursue their dreams. They understand the benefits of freedom. What I resent are those illegal and legal immigrants, no matter what country they came from, who are a drain on the system.
The fact of the matter is that the US government really doesn't care about the presence of illegals in the country. My negative attitude comes from the fact that they are a drain on the system; all they do is take, take, take. Having taken a quick look, apparently Russia has/had its own problems with illegals. No country should have to bear the burden of people who are a drain.
I believe I have that movie. Will look for it and watch it. isn't that with Harrison Ford? I think I watched it sometime ago, will take another watch.
You go to an Irish pub here and you can probably count the number of Irishmen on one hand. Many Irish pubs in Brooklyn. I loved going to them. Drink or no drink, the happiest people I ever met and know how to have a good time. They definitely could drink, but it didn't stop them from getting up the next day and going to work - most of whom were in construction. Red Chief We agreed about illegal immigrants. So nothing to discuss. As for me I blame them mostly in increasing street crimes. Social walfare is so negligible in Russia nowadays. That's why no issue.
The dream of legal immigrats is a big joke in common. Most of them work on low-paid jobs much below their qualification and sucrifice their lives in hope that their children will be REAL 100% Americans.
You are right it was the movie with Harrison Ford.

Quote:

• They definitely could drink, but it didn't stop them from getting up the next day and going to work - most of whom were in construction.

:shock: :shock: :shock:
They are probably a goddam marvel of modern science. I cannot, especially after such poison as Wild Turkey. :wink: Bora Bora

• Red Chief wrote:
  We agreed about illegal immigrants. So nothing to discuss. As for me I blame them mostly in increasing street crimes. Social walfare is so negligible in Russia nowadays. That's why no issue.
  The dream of legal immigrats is a big joke in common. Most of them work on low-paid jobs much below their qualification and sucrifice their lives in hope that their children will be REAL 100% Americans.
  You are right it was the movie with Harrison Ford.
  
  Quote:
  
  • They definitely could drink, but it didn't stop them from getting up the next day and going to work - most of whom were in construction.
  
  :shock: :shock: :shock:
  They are probably a goddam marvel of modern science. I cannot, especially after such poison as Wild Turkey. :wink:

Those "low paying jobs" you refer to are generally filled by illegal immigrants. Its just convenient for the government to turn its head the other way. Chief, it takes hard work for any (legal) immigrant to succeed in the country they choose to migrate to. So many things to overcome, including racism and resentment.
I hold no grudge to anyone who is willing to work hard and go about things the legal way. Many legal immigrants who work at low paying jobs are either poorly educated, and/or unskilled and/or there is a language issue. In any event those are the ones who sacrifice to see their children have a better future. Opportunities are there, you just have to work at it.
Example:
Fedex Senior Vice President of the ME and MENA. Hamdi Osman, an Egyptian who started out at Fedex working during the holidays loading trucks. (Now American citizen)
Indra K Nooyi, born in India heads Pepsico as CEO, 12 year post. (Now American citizen.)
There are many, many (legal) immigrants either first generation or second who succeeded in the US. They may not have reached the top, but they succeeded where they probably could not have in their homeland. abyssdesire Bora, It's true that western countries such as America provide opportunities to people who come from third world countries which helps them succeed in life. But saying that it is costing real Americans their hard earned tax money and their homeland in the process is a narrow statement. America is all immigrants. There is no such thing is "real American". Maybe your parents were born in America, and their parents. But that's it. People who truly America belongs to got jiffed in making crap deals and now are rotting away in reserves smoking and drinking all day. These South Asians, Middle Easterns, Africans who are "flooding" the country and bringing with them a lot of baggage are a need of America. Largest share in immigrants are Mexicans who leave their kids behind so they can come clean your dishes, sew your clothes, make your car parts on measly dollars. Or better yet, why not just open the plant in Mexico and pay them even lower? Look at every product in your household. How many are labeled "Made In China"? Same dirty Chinamen who run laundromats and 7 11's in your neighborhood 24 hours a day so you can get service anytime you feel like it? My point is, the immigrants you see lined up at social services office are nothing compared to the immigrants you see working for a big fat white guy on 7 dollars/hour. If America didn't need them, they should just block their borders and watch their over-pampered country go down in no time. rudeboy wht the EFF :S where is this post going to. it was about pakistand and india and now we have people talking about immigrants :S what have pakistan and india got to do with immigrants people!!!!!! start your own threads Red Chief I cannot agree any more. I know totaly oposite cases espesialy for mid-aged immigrants:
1) M.D. who worked 20 years in surgery in SU carries a bag after family doctor in US.
2) My university-mate, Ph. D. in Science at the age 23 years, professor in Moscow. He has 10 years experience in USA: a half year in Coloradio and another half in Moscow.
Recently I asked him why he wasn't going to work in USA only. He replied me that in this case he would be forced to write articles for American Ph.D 4 years and after that his degree would be be accepted and he could work independetly.
Of course generational Muscovite with name in physics cannot agree on such condition.
3) There is another example like Sergey Brin, founder of google but he was brought to US at the age of 12 and educated in US mostly. Er... and he do reach the TOP , 6th position as soon as I remember. :wink: