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Tragedy in Mecca


arniegang Our thoughts are with the families of those that suffered at Mecca.
Mayflower Its such a sad event ... let God give the deceased souls eternal peace!!! ... and more importantly let us hope the concerned people take adequate safety measures to ensure such tragedies don't occur in the future ... Liban
So sad and regrettable. One can consol oneself by knowing that because they died in Hajj, they are in Heaven (provided they did Hajj with a pure heart).
And yes, they are destroying the current bridge and will build a new structure in time for next Hajj inshallah. shaakira :cry: :cry: :cry: My dad hasn't called yet to say he's okay :cry: :cry: :cry: Liban
My thoughts are with you and Inshallah bi izin Allah you will hear from him soon. Do not worry about it. I suspect phone lines must be quite tied up now.
Think optimist!! shaakira thanx brother liban, i'll keep on praying............. sniper420
What happened ? Any new incidence? Sorry didnt keep up with news easternjewel
Prayers with him, InshaALLah he will return safely. arniegang
Whilst on Hajj Sniper, over 100 people got crushed and sadly perished. Liban
More like 350+ :cry:

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arniegang eeekkkkk that many!! - the last news report i seen on TV was 125 confimed However in saying this, i am surprised the Saudi's havent learnt from the tragedy in 1991 when 1440 died. Liban That is the problem with the entire issue. The Saudi and reactive in this regard, rather than proactive. Inshallah they have woken up now and will implement the new construction they spoke of. Although thats what we say each time. However, that being said, even the most developped of countries will have logistical problems if 2.1 million people arrive all in one shot and converge onto one location for a period of a few days. pretender Its really sad.....May Allah rest their soul in peace..Ameen... sniper420 i understand. I read an article will this disaster prevented in future? Answer was no by many experts cos ppl will be pissed by the security officials takingup the place. I suggest ppl there should be educated with the strategies to prevent such incident. Most of the ppl are too emotional & excited when going there and it takes only a couple of ppl to spread the panic. May God bless their soul. Chocoholic It was a tragic event. But I have to agree with Sniper420, it doesn't matter how much security or how many precautions you take, many of these people will always push and shove everyone else as no one else is important apart from themselves, because they don't know any better. This always happens at the 3 pillars, people at the back throw stones which haven't got a hope in hell of hitting the pillar, so the people at the front get pelted and all the disabled and less abled people go to the front and bear the brunt of the whole thing. Apparently they left loads of luggage lying around and people were falling all over it and they started to panic which is what caused the crush. Linda_Stuiv It seems inevitable that something like this would occur. i don't know what precautions (without compromising the religious necessities of the Pilgrimage rites) can be taken to ensure that none of 2-3 million people gathering in an area not much bigger than Deira, and participating in the same rites at the same time and place, would get harmed/die. Sad really. MaaaD What sucks is how the people always will tell you oh its okay they are martyrs and had a great death during hajj and brush it off instead of doing something about it. Every year the same thing happens peopple die on the third day after Arafat. EVeryone is in a rush to finish and go home. Saudia ARabia is NOT doing enough to prevent this. They blame the people but you cant expect 2-3 million people coming from all over the world in probably some of the remote areas to be able to understand instructions or follow rules, you have to ENFORCE them. Security should have not allowed bags, and one more thing why isnt there a specified entry and exit routes .. its all a big mess. This happens every year and saudi is not short on resources to fix this. arniegang Could someone explain please the purpose of Hajj? On Tv we see people walking around and throwing stones. I would be interested to know a bit about this. Liban Retracing the steps the Prophet took many years ago. It is an act of submission to God by returning to the birthplace of His Prophet, going to where God spoke to His Prophet, visiting the site where His Prophet sought refuge from persecution and stoning where God froze the devil.
arniegang Many thanks and very well explained. shafique Arnie, Liban explained the significance of Haj very well. The pilgrimage itself though pre-dates Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) and commemorates the spirit of ultimate sacrifice shown by the Prophet Abraham and his first born (Ishmael). The Arabs from pre-history have been commemorating this event by performing an annual pilgrimage to Mecca to commemorate events from the prophethood of Abraham. For example, running between the hills of Safa and Marwa seven times commemorates when the mother of Ishmael ran to the two hillocks whilst looking for water for herself and the infant Ishmael. Haj is one of the 5 pillars of Islam - along with the attestation of faith (there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet), offering of 5 daily prayers, paying of alms on capital (Zakat) and fasting during Ramadhan. As for the tragedy in Mecca this year - the authorities have improved the facilities beyond recognition over the past decade, and more improvements are planned - but the sad fact is that the sheer volume of people and limited space at some of the venues means that a small incident can lead to these tragedies. People are hurt and killed at other smaller events - think about football matches and music concerts - when there is a stampede and people are trampled or crushed. At haj you have a wider range of ages and states of health, and many times the number of people at similar events. A person stumbling and falling can have horrific consequences and the volume of people can prove unstoppable in that moment. No one, I don't think, excuses or condones these deaths and injuries - I certainly don't. However, I thought I'd seek to explain the circumstances.. I have been to Saudi and visited Mecca and Medina (but not performed Haj) - and whilst there are many things we should castigte the Saudi authorities about (don't get me started), their concern and measures to improve the facilities in Mecca during the Haj are hard to fault. The numbers attending Haj are limited to prevent overcrowding (remember there are 1 billion muslims in the world who all would want to do Haj once in their lifetime) - and now there are two storie prayer halls around the Kaaba etc. Anyway, I hope I've shed some light on the subject (but I have deliberately just touched on the subject). Cheers, Shafique arniegang many thanks Shaf. Can you tell me what is the significance of the time that Hajj takes place. Cannot muslims just go anytime to perform their pilgrimage? shafique Arnie, Haj takes place on fixed days of the Islamic calendar - which happens to follow a lunar cycle (the month in which fasting occurs is called Ramadhan and the month in which Haj takes place is called Dhul Haj). Therefore, like Ramadhan, the days on which Haj takes place varies each year (moving 11 days back in the solar calendar). Haj, by definition, is a series of rituals which take place on specific days of Haj. A large part of the significance of the pilgrimage is the shared experience of all pilgrims performing the rituals together - a sea of humanity gathering for the sole purpose of obeying the commandments of God and testifying to their submission to His commandments. All dress in the same clothes and do the same actions - there is no rank or favour and it emphasises one's humanity and solidarity with others. I have not done Haj, but those who have say it is a life changing event (if it is done with the right intentions and one chooses to live a more pious life after). I'm reminded of Malcolm X's accounts of Haj and how after it he renounced the racist views of the Nation of Islam because he found white, black, asian etc muslims all performing Haj together. Muslims can go to Mecca at any time and peform the rites of Haj - but outside of the Haj days this is called the lesser pilgrimage (Umrah). I have had the priviledge of performing this. This can be done in under an hour - as not all the rites of haj need to be done. The full haj takes place over a number of days. Anyway, I'm rambling again - the short answer to your question is that Haj takes place on specific days of the year by definition and visiting Mecca etc on other days of the year does not constitute the Haj pilgrimage. (Think of Glastonbury outside of the days of the annual festival... not a great analogy, but the difference is the number of people...) Cheers, Shafique arniegang Shaf Please dont apologise about rambling, like liban i find the way you write about it easy to understand and that makes it more interesting to read. I apologise if i seem un-educated and ignorant. This may sound a really stupid question now. You have mentioned God and his commandments. I am christian, is your interpretation/meaning within Islam the same as ours ie the 10 commandments given to Moses on Mount Sinai?? If i am way off, and have totally lost the plot i apologise in advance and i mean no disrespect. Liban As Muslims, the 10 commandments as handed by God to Moussa (Moses in Arabic) as part of the Islamic rule of law. arniegang sooooo, is there a connection between christianity and Islam Liban? shafique Arnie, Islam is the pinnacle of religious evolution - it is the most recent of the world religions and is the only religion that itself claims to be the final, global religion. Let me explain. Islam teaches that all people have been sent messengers from God. However in history, one person could not address a whole nation due to limitations of communication, travel etc. Means of communication and man's social evolution have changed over time (improved over time) - and God's message and requirements for His creations have similarly matched the social status of the people. Islam teaches us that the first muslim was Abraham - he followed 'Islam' which means 'submission to the will of God' - doing what God has commanded so as to find peace and contentment. Islam is also unique in that it acknowledges the existence of other religions and their founders as legitimate proponents of truth. Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism etc are all silent on what other 'people' follow in terms of religion. Judaism is explicit about it's religious being something that is hereditary and only applies to the descendants of Isaac (although there are conversions in Judaism, the OT is clear that there are rules for Jews and Gentiles have their own set of rules, outside of God's grace). Islam is also the fulfilment of all the prophecies found in other religions that a new message will come to the people in the future. As you are from a Christian background, let me explain this from a Judao Christian perspective (but the same arguments can be found in Hinduism etc). Islam is explicit about it's heritage from Abraham and before him Noah and even back to Adam. In the OT (old testament), God gives Abraham the good news about how he will make the offspring of Ishmael into a great nation (Abraham had two sons, first born was Ishmael and second born was Isaac - Hagar was the mother of Ishmael and Sarah the mother of Isaac. Isaac's descendants are the Children of Israel - Jewish people - and the descendants of Ishmael are the Arabs. Arabs and Jews are therefore cousins. Both are Semites, and this has actually been proved by genetics - certain genetic markers are only shared between arabs and Jews, and also has shown that all Cohens/Kahns from the Jews share a common genetic lineage....) Judaism - the religion of the Jews - was a specific religion brought by Moses and only for the Children of Israel. It was not a religion that was meant for the whole of mankind. It spawned a number of prophets and ultimately ended with the Messiah - Jesus Christ (on whom be peace). He was explicit that he had come not to bring a new religion, but to fulfil the prophecies that a reformer for Judaism would come in future. He clearly warned his disciples not to preach to non-Jews (don't throw pearls before swine, he said) and did not preach to any non-Jews himself (although Jesus was kind to them). Muslims are in the interesting position of actually agreeing what Jesus says in the Bible - what they disagree with is the teachings of St Paul who propounded the idea that Jesus' message should be taken to non-Jews. Recall that this took place after Jesus' crucifixion and was opposed by the disciples of Jesus (at least initially). St Paul never met Jesus in person, you will also recall. Now, Jesus in the New Testament clearly says that his message is NOT the final one for mankind. He says that there are many things that still need to be told, but that this would be done when the 'comforter' comes in the future. The word 'comforter' in the greek translation available to the world is 'paracletes' - and the hebrew for this word, I think, is 'muhammadin'.... !! However, this last point is a hot debating point between Christian and Muslim scholars, so suffice to say it is one interpretation of what is written in the NT. That said, there is no dispute that Jesus clearly does not say that his is the last religion or that there is no other person coming with a more complete message - quite the opposite. Now, people can see these prophecies/promises in the previous religions and can make a judgement as to whether these have been fulfilled. At the very least, this fulfilment of the prophecy must make a claim that it is the latest in the previous line of prophecies and it must make sense to the intellect as well as fit in with what has been sent before. Islam makes claim to be the fulfilment of all that has gone before and to be the final, universal religion. From a social evolution perspective, it was only in 6th century CE that the means of communication had developed to the stage that one person's message could be carried to the corners of the known world in his/her own lifetime. It was also a period in which social interactions had developed to a point where commerce, agriculture, writing etc had developed to a stage where a civilising religion that regulated all aspects of life could be revealed. Islam raised the status of women, giving them rights that no other religion had before, regulated warfare, commerce, enjoined the study of science etc etc. But above all Islam codified the most effient way to develop one's spiritual life to the point where one becomes at peace with God and God is at peace with them. Man had developed to the stage where he could offer 5 daily prayers in congregation, pay alms, fast etc without difficulty. Learning had developed to an extent that the message could be preserved verbatim without distortion for future reference. Note that the Quran is the only religious book that claims to be the literal word of God and also contains a promise that it will not be changed or distorted. All other religious books are either silent on this or contain warnings of what will happen WHEN people distort the message. The Quran in contrast contains no punishment for changes, but a promise that God will preserve/protect the text (in itself a prophecy which has been fulfilled). The Quran claims (again uniquely) that it is the final and universal religion for mankind. Religion = how you choose to live your life, in relation to other people and also in relation to God. The 10 commandments are integral to Islam - but Islam is much more than this (as is Judaisim and Christianity). In fact Islam says that all messengers to all people had the same message - a fact that is brought home when you go back and compare the 10 commandments to the teachings of Krishna, Gautama Buddha, Zoraster, Confucious etc - all teach basically the 10 commandments! There is only one God. Muslims believe that Muhammad is his messenger. Wasalaam (Peace), Shafique arniegang Shaf Total respect to you my friend and a big thank you to take the time to explain in a way that is understandable and in a totally unbiased way. So can you please explain where the link is between Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Mohammad, and if Islam and Judism are techincally linked, in that they originate from the sons of Moses, why is there conflict? Also why does our bible not mention Islam? shafique Arnie, You are welcome. Firstly, Abraham's two sons were Isaac and Ishmael. Moses is a descendant of Isaac, Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael - both are law-bearing prophets. There were many non-law bearing prophets - such as Joseph (one of the sons of Jacob - who was also known as Israel, and Jacob was the son of Isaac). The history of religions and civilisations follow the same patterns - initially pristine and pure teachings degrade over time, initial humility and simplicity degrades over time to decadence and arrogance - a divergence from the original teachings. When this occurs God sends another messenger to bring things back to the original message. This is what happened when Jesus came to reform the distorted religious practices of the Jews of the time. Jesus was rejected by the powers that be - in fact all prophets are rejected by the people in power at the time they come. Now you ask about the hatred between the Arabs and Jews - this is a recent phenomenon. At the outset of Islam, many Jews converted to Islam - many Jewish tribes were allies of the muslims. One of the Prophet's wives was the daughter of Jewish chief (Safiyyah). There were also tribes of Jews that were enemies of the Muslims and were fought against and punished. When the muslims were in power, there was complete religious freedom and there was full exchange of ideas. There are examples of non-muslims holding positions of power and influence in muslim courts/governments. The 'Dark Ages' in Europe coincided with the zenith of Muslim temporal power in the world - exemplified by the Spanish muslim rule. The Jews called this their 'Golden Period' as they weren't persecuted at all. Jews and Christians enjoyed complete religious freedom in Jerusalem when the Muslims ruled the city. At the time of the crusades, the Palestinian Christians and Jews begged the muslim rulers to remain and protect them from the Franks (western christians). Islam is a religion of total religious freedom. The Prophet, for example, actually let the Christian delegation from Najran to perform their Sunday service in his own mosque in Medina. Looking back to Palestine/Israel, Muslims did not persecute Jews in that region. Jews and Muslims lived side by side in peace. The persecution of Jews took place in the West and the hatred for the Jews in the 20th century stems from the injustice of the creation of the state of Israel and it's occupation of land outside of the 1947 borders. Palestinians who refused to acknowledge that their birthrights had been taken away are still classed as refugees - 5 decades later! The hatred has it's roots in politics - but as either side is indentified by the religon they follow, the hatred takes on the appearance of being between religions. In fact it is between followers of different religions. Another aspect to this is that religion can be mis-used. The crusades happened in the Middle Ages for Christianity - those in power used religion to justify genocide and conquests (primarily for political aims). Arguably, Islam is in its Middle Ages at the moment and there is misuse of religious authority going on. Where in Jesus' teachings is the justification for the massacres of innocent women and children in the Crusades? The same question can be asked today of 'muslim' suicide bombers/terrorists etc. True believers and followers of any religion are peaceful and just. Fighting against injustice is part of all religion and is a must - but fighting because of a religious and/or racial hatred is alien to all religions. Wasalaam, Shafique (PS how do I get into fight club..?) Liban Shafique, alhamdoulliah ya khayi, I couldn't have said things any better than you... Mashallah!!! :) arniegang ok another silly question i'm affraid Why isnt Moses considered or given less importance in relation to the other prophets, as it was God that spoke and handed him the ten commandments?. Why are Abraham and his sons Isaac and Ishmael not considered prophets? sniper420
They are considered prophets, that's the reason Eid ul Adha is celebrated by sacrificing domestic animals :roll: arniegang Thanks Sniper - so another question if i may: Why is there a difference in status between Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael and their sons Muhammad and Moses? Linda_Stuiv You're actually asking Sniper about religion :shock: ? In Islam (Because I'm sure you know it all about Christianity) All prophets are of the same status. However, there are 5 prophets which are placed a bit higher because of the exceptional suffering/turmoil/pivotal historical significance they represent: Noah, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammed. Mohammed is given the privilege of "pardoning" people on Judgment Day, and since he is considered (by Muslim) to be the last prophet with the complete message, then he is usually described as "The Sir of Prophets". There are messengers and prophets. Quran mentions 25 prophets/messengers. It is stated in Hadith (What The prophet Mohammed said or did) that God sent thousands of prophets that weren't mentioned in Quran (for lack of relevance I suppose). Messengers are those prophets that had "Holy Books" revealed to them. Prophets received divine revelation, but no Book. The terms are usually used interchangeably. Ishmael, Moses and the whole lot are considered prophets/messengers and are all respected/revered in the Islamic system. Any other questions? sniper420
When did I mention that I am devil worshipper Linda? yes Moses got Torah, Jesus Bible one of the messenger got Psalm and Quran was given to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). Arnie I guess it's time for you to do some homework on religion. U have earned millions but will have to start earning thousands to get a place in heaven and who knows u will start a real estate business there too :P lochness Arnie thank you for asking (and let me tell you something and I quote "The only stupid question is the unasked question?" and Shaf thank you for the magnificantly informative explanations, I have followed with rapt attention. It is wonderful to follow a conversation that gives simple, unbiased, honest answers. Once again thank you both. sniper420
who is Shaf again? :roll: shafique Shaf is what my friends and my mum calls me ... :) Cheers, Shafique G Wow! Thanks guys! I'm not a religious person in any way shape or form, but found this to be a tremendously educational and interesting thread.
I've got one question that sprung out at me during the thread though - and please understand I'm not trying to be controversial, but just want to understand, as my image of Islam has never been that of a religion that tolerates other religions and this intrigues me:

So what has happened in Saudi Arabia where they do not allow the building of a church for example - surely if Islam allows religious freedom then a Church in Saudi Arabia should be tolerated? arniegang [quote="sniper420]
When did I mention that I am devil worshipper Linda? yes Moses got Torah, Jesus Bible one of the messenger got Psalm and Quran was given to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). Arnie I guess it's time for you to do some homework on religion. U have earned millions but will have to start earning thousands to get a place in heaven and who knows u will start a real estate business there too :P
My ticket to a life "down below" was booked long ago Sniper, so when i get there i will be looking for some "Hot Properties"
:lol: :lol: fayz I just want to say thank you to all of you, esp Shafique. This was thread was an awesome read. Kudos to all. sniper420
Yeah Malcolm X is a goos example of how he opened up his mind after going to Hajj.



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