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Three questions about Islam


shafique
I'm sorry you feel so strongly about breastfeeding.
I'm also sorry if I gave you the impression that I would be concerned about whether you would 'tolerate' my explanation of Hadith or not.
However I am waiting patiently for your 'disection' of the Quran. Do we have an expected date for the first post on the subject?
(And just to be clear, I won't engage in you on historical points on stories of the compilation of the Quran etc, but will limit myself to discussing what the contents of the Quran say as that is the basis of Islam. You should be able to criticise the Quran for what it is, not what others say about how it came to being - if it was a fabrication, then the text should reveal this.
The reason I won't engage in a historical discussion with you is because you have already dismissed out of hand the fact that Islam wasn't spread by the sword in Egypt - despite the historical references furnished to you.
But it will be an interesting stance if you say 'The Quran is perfect, but it was written by humans and not God'. If you don't believe the Quran is perfect/the word of God, then you will be bringing up points about the contents of the Quran - and on this, I am waiting to answer you as soon as you post.)
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
use this time to research your material to do with the authenticity thoroughly, because i will not tolerate your personal opinion after i do in fact write my post about the quran. (that you will also dismiss as heressey - i dealt with your kind plenty, so eager to ask for proof, when proof arises, proof is never valid - case in point) rudeboy
man ebonics u mind telling me which religion according to u is the BEST!!! ebonics
its not my fault you find it hard to reply to my proof and posts..
you may need to level up to islamiyat102 to start conversating back to me :lol: :lol: ebonics you wont even find an answer to the authenticity of the hadith by then :lol: i can appreciate if you cant admit your precious prophet said something so outlandish but when azhar clerics do - your opinion counts for squat.... you'll never admit he (or you for that matter) are wrong. by precedance - you should be answering the claims of the hadith first (THROUGH RESEARCH NOT PERSONAL OPINION)... by then i would have compiled enough evidence against the quran. shafique
Why don't we focus on what we agree.
You decided that the religion of your forefathers - Coptic Christianity - was not worth following any more. We agree on this.
You are just following in the footsteps of all those Arabic speaking former Christians who have decided that Christianity is no longer for them. The majority became Muslims. The minority, like you, decided that another or no religion is for them.
Do we at least agree that the majority of Copts who gave up Christianity became Muslims?
Perhaps you can share with us what made you abandon Christianity and whether those faults are worse than than the ones you are posting about Islam.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique ebonics - can we discuss the authenticity of hadith after you have finished 'disecting' the Quran. (hopefully we will have finished this before the world ends in 2012) Cheers, Shafique spoonman In Iran if a guy files for divorce he as to sign the papers and it's done. but if a woman tries, she needs to appear before a court various times and proves that she needs to get divorce (like the guy is abusive, addicted or ...) and if the guy doesn't approve, it will become a long sour process. and the custody of the children automatically goes to the husband. shafique
Thanks - sounds a bit inequitable to me. I was aware that the Shia had these types of rules, but wasn't aware that the men can get divorce so quickly.
(Some shia also believe in 'muta' or temporary marriage, had some interesting debates with them on the subject in the past!)
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
I would be surprised if women are refused the right to divorce as this is integral to Islam - I'm not aware of any sect/society that would outlaw divorce. Many cultures do oppress women, but I wasn't aware of divorce not being allowed (but that is not to say that you are wrong, just that I am not aware of this).
2 women testifying is as per the Quran, but the Quran is quite clear that it is the testimony of one woman that counts, the other is only an advisor (I liken it to the US laws which say criminal defendants are entitled to representation - except here it is a requirement to have a extra witness. The second lady does not testify.)
Cheers,
Shafique

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shafique
No problem, calling people names has historically not been shown to be a good way to get people to change their faith.
The unique thing about the Quran is that it is written in the original language it was revealed in and is completely accessible to all - especially those who can understand Arabic. Do you have any indication of mass conversions from Islam to Coptic Christianity? My understanding is that those not converting to Islam are actively leaving the Church like you have done.

So you agree that parts of the Bible are fabrications. Your view is that Islam is completely fabricated.

But you reject Christianity as a religion, and believe parts of the Bible are fabrications. Please clarify if I've misunderstood.

I set up a thread to discuss issues with the Quran. You are free to discuss these with me - so far, no contradictions have been put forward that I have not addressed.

Ok - sorry, again you mentioned Buddhist teachings before - so I now take it you are saying you don't agree with their teachings - but only with your view of spirituality.

At the end of the day all religion is personal opinion - or are you advocating brain washing?
Why is it not logical to reject questionable 'sayings' when they go against the literal word of God? Why do you insist on going to the sayings rather than tackling the Quran which you understand in the original form?
I choose to follow logic and hence have rejected the concept of a man being God (i.e. Trinity). Coptic Christians do not believe in Trinity like the Catholic Church (they are Monophysites, according to what I have read).
I look forward to your 'disecting' of the Quran.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
-through opression yes, but this is now changing due to the contradictions unearthed by various media, the internet age, and by clerics themselves, making muslims question the prophet they knew and loved all their lives - people in egypt are a little more open minded than elsewhere - where as someone like yourself dismisses these things are heressey without even looking at it... when i labelled some muslims dim in the brain, thats what i talked about

not christianity, or any other religion.... refer back to religion is a necessity of society.
i do believe that god is able to manifest himself to man for guidance, done through jesus and no other, as well as the fact that jesus and god are one in the same and alive. islam i believe is completely man made and fabricated start to finish. i can get into several proofs of that - it was specifically tailored to the people of saudia arabia and their beliefs and their pagan life system at the time - in no way is it universal. this is now evident several hundered years on, who's the odd one out that are trying to change everyone else to meet their needs? muslims.

the quran also speaks of creation of earth and the creation of adam and eve - which are both fables in my opinion. does your quran tell you you were once a primate living on trees? news to me.

i believe the bible is a guide to guide society - and an account of jesus' life and teachings.. and a lot of it is symbolic... isolate things on a one to one basis if you wish to discuss.
but if you're willing to do that, im going to disect your qur'an with a surgeon knife... and you'll do as you did to the hadith, dismiss my disection as worm activity trying to discredit islam (selectively)

i dont study or agree with any buddhist teachings, they are things i found and learnt through personal exploration.

based on no adaquate research, just personal opinion to dismiss any claims that you yourself said "for once im speechless" to. again highlighting the selectiveness when it comes to muslims and hadith - its all personal opinion, take what you want, ignore what you want. nice work shafique. shafique Interesting. Starting at the end - we agree that the majority of Copts are now Muslim and are among those who consider Muhammad, pbuh, a true Prophet of God and an exemplar. You say that you believe in Jesus as God, but do not believe in the religion Christians say he taught. You therefore implicitly believe in parts of the Bible and reject other parts of the Bible (the parts that say you should follow the religion of Christianity). You reject the claims against evolution found in the Bible. The Quran talks about life evolving from simpler forms to more complex forms, so I do believe in evolution, but not one that started by mere chance - as I believe in a God that was the ultimate creator. Therefore you must believe that the Bible contains corruptions - which goes against an earlier statement from you which said you believe everything in the Bible and can justify the teachings (you said 'bring it on' I believe). No problems, we'll put that down to a mis-communication or misunderstanding. Interestingly, you say that you agree with Buddhist teachings. Can you explain how these fit with the view that Jesus is God? Did Buddha become one with Jesus when he achieved nirvana? (And yes, I agree with you that hadith which contradict the Quran and Sunnah are summarily rejected by myself) Cheers, Shafique ebonics
of course that will be your answer - its the answer of anyone that turns a blind eye on the facts because they threaten what they believed in for the better part of their life. unfortunatly its invalid as the azhar's teachings and that is what previals - al azhar says it is in fact a valid and true hadith - any cleric that studied islam back to front would tell you the same - but they all say its widely agreed that this is not in line with current civilised customs hence making

very questionable.... i suggest that you discusss that with your local cleric when you go to the mosque today for your friday prayers..

thats charming - more than 5.5 billion pay him no regard.
this is exactly what i mean, when i say when you're presented with data like this, dont just turn a blind eye and call it fabrications - do your research and see what the truth is behind it... if you believed that muhammad is a model for you to live your life with and this surfaced would you blindly reject the claim or look into it? i know id be looking into it, especially if it made international news...
let alone marrying under aged girls, ordering people to leave their wives so he can marry them, etc etc etc - dont make me open a whole topic on muhammad's womanising history - because id probably make you self combust.
i never abadoned christianity shafique, i abandoned the thought of following religion, which are 2 different things. i still believe in jesus and that he and god are one in the same.
i believe in evolution which makes most religions rather questionable (or rather symbolic - not to be taken literarly - a collection of life lessons for guidance of society).. i believe that human DNA is a result a mutation of primate DNA through the introductions of certain natural occuring chemicals - in line with terrence mckenna's ideas, and many others. science tends to agree with that..
DNA mutations prevail when they prove fit enough to survive natural elements surrounding it - again science agrees with that.
i believe that through natural entheogenic experiences, true spirituality can be achieved - in line with many ancient civilisations, shamanistic teachings and rituals. and through personal experiences i believe that is far more accurate than any book can teach.
i believe that the 20th centuary has moved humans backwards in retardation rather than forward with the introduction of things that never used to exist, making us lazy, less productive, not utilising the brain that god gave us to its full extent and relying on computers to do that for us.
i broke free of that mould and explored my spirituality independant of anyone's teachings - my findings are far too profound for your brain to comprehend if you cant break out of the mould of what you blindly believe first.
i hope that answers your question - there's not much else i can explain because frankly i dont think you'll understand what im talking about if i get into it a little deeper.

100% accurate - through oppression (the sword) shafique
Ok, fair enough.
I follow Muhammad, pbuh, because his prophecies came true and the Quran contains no contradictions, his life is a model for all to follow and despite the attempts of his enemies to cast slurs against him, more than a billion people consider him the best human example that has exsisted.
He showed us how to live in the following circumstances: as a child, an adolescent, orphan, as a husband, a friend, someone who was oppressed, someone in power and even as an emperor of a nation.
The hadith about breast feeding are fabrications/deliberate misquotes and have no bearing on the religion of Islam or the Quran.
So, will you now be true to your word and discuss my questions. Why did you abandon Christianity of your parents?
Cheers
Shafique rudeboy lol am luving this :D shafique
So you say I should abandon logic and blindly follow a 'cleric' that you quote?
Did you know that in Islam there is no priesthood?

No, do you?

I'm not asking you to follow me but invite people to use what is between their ears.

If you are not going to take my word, should I take your word for this 'mass conversion' from Islam over a report on breast feeding?
Anyway, let me know when you have started the 'disection'.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
No, sorry I won't admit that the prophet, pbuh, said any outlandish things.
As I said, we can discuss the authenticity of hadith after we have finished with your 'disecting' of the Quran.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
and ill tell you when you tell me how old are you. saying you're 13 is doing you a favour.
ebonics ill openly discuss all that if you first discuss why you're following a "prophet" that told his wife to breast feed other adults - in its respective topic :lol: :lol: :lol: shafique Al Azhar university does not say that all Hadith in the Sahih are correct. This certainly is not part of the mission statement. Anyone that seeks to describe Islam from peripheral texts which no one follows or believe are relevant is either being deliberately provokative or incredibly (to borrow ebonic's words) ignorant. Muslims believe the Quran's claims that it is the literal word of God. ebonic has said he can 'disect' the Quran - and show it is a total fabrication. I am waiting to see if this is a fantasy (like planet x, or that Islam was spread by the sword) or something that will be backed up with some relevant posts. Cheers, Shafique spoonman
I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian. and I'm losing faith to the whole god concept. I just wanted to hear your perspective, but no problem. shafique
The Quran.
Cheers,
Shafique spoonman I don't follow you logic ebonics. you are doing the same thing. How is that Christianity is not fabricated or Jesus and god are one. It's because you were taught these from when you were born and you cant simply ignore it. How can you prove that a god exists? rather than it's what you feel or what you want to believe. If I go in that direction, I would go for the whole package. ebonics shafique, your ignorance astounds me.
the cleric i quote has NO reason to say that this hadith is in fact true and valid (it does him way more harm than good saying so) but at least he has the decency to speak the truth... but again, you havent bothered looking it up, even though i did quote the hadith by number - you just turn a blind eye and call that using your brain - i repeat your ignorance astounds me.
al azhar is defined as the supreme council of islamic affairs - and is the number one source of islamic teachings and islamic tertiary studies. they dont deny it, in fact the whole hadith of Suckling is on their website. with all its respective parts, in english (albeit the worst english i think i ever read - wonder who translates these things)
and as the link indicates, again, this is a sonna website - there are hardly any shiates in egypt.
i never said i have any degree in islamic studies, as such im not making claims, instead im quoting the top of the food chain here as illustrated above... what else do you want me to do? quote wikipedia? :lol:
taken from the azhar's website's mission statement

i ask you - what other credible source do you want me to quote? do you want me to bring God himself to hand in a written statement with 2 witnesses and stamped from the department of religious affairs, then the department of foreign affairs? then the embassy of the heavens above?
regarding what i said, i dont expect you to take my word for it, take it with a grain of salt - doesnt phase me.. but thats what happened.
spoonman, as i already said to shafique before, i dont expect you to understand my spiritual stance that i lead my life by. this is for me to live by. ebonics
i will get to the other points later,
i am implying brainwashing, rather than advocating.

because when every cleric admits to it, al azhar admits to it, who are you exactly to say no to it?
do you have a degree in islamic studies from al azhar (or elsewhere really)?
i listen to a qualified cleric and islamic professor, not a shafique on an internet forum.
simple really.

the most considerable "mass" wave of converts occured after the breast feeding incident was brought up into the public eye - hence it was considered a very profound incident. converts didnt necessarily convert to coptic - but suffice to say they denounced muhammad as a prophet. ebonics
you want me to quote the quran for a hadith!?
the azhar lists the hadith in question in the lists of hadith's on their website, as shown by the link the "suckling" hadith of several parts.

ok mr wikipedia, when im done collecting relevant date, you'll be speechless, for the 2nd time. - things take time. ebonics not to mention, every source i seem to look into seems to be blocked in this god forsaken hell hole.. now you understand my youtube share-holding... Flying Dutchman Can somebody answer the following genuine questions I have about Islam and its relation with unbelievers: -Can a Muslim have a true friendship with an unbeliever? How does Islam look at it? Should it be avoided or doesn´t Islam have any problems with this? -What is a better person according to Allah, or which one will Allah like more: a. A Muslim committing the worst of sins b. An unbeliever doing constant good to others. -How does Islam look at a Muslima having a relation with a non-Muslim? Thanks for your time. Appreciate you answer. shafique
Yes, muslims can have true friends who are non-Muslim. The quranic verses about not taking unbelievers as friends relate to specific circumstances. However, any person who continually mocks Islam is not a person that can trully be a friend of a Muslim, as we are instructed to remove ourselves from such conversations. The sunnah (practice) of the Prophet, pbuh, and Hadith show that he was caring about all humanity and taught tolerance towards other faiths, and showed courtesy and respect (and yes friendship) with people of other faiths.
Notably, the ruler of Abysinnia (Ethiopia) was Christian and always kept good relations with the Prophet, and subsequent Islamic rulers. Also the Bishop of Najran (in Arabia) and his delegation were personally welcomed in Medina and the Prophet offered his own mosque for them to do perform the Sunday service when they requested a place.

The Quran is clear on this one - each person will be judged on their own merits - so the answer is 'it depends'. [Edit, however as it is phrased, the Muslim will go to Hell and the unbeliever if constantly doing good works will be rewarded by God - so in all probability the unbeliever will be treated better - but it does still depend on the totality of actions, intentions and God's mercy/judgement]

Muslima = female muslim.
Generally, all extra-marital relations are forbidden. Muslim men are allowed to marry women of other faiths as long as they aren't pagans/idol worshippers (and are 'people of the book' normally interpreted as Christians and Jews).
Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslims.
If 'relations' mean work or general friendships, then there is no restriction with having school/work etc friends. However there is a general injunction to not have free mixing of the s.e.x.es and instructions on how men and women should cover up when in the presence of others.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique PS: Islam teaches that men and women are equal in all things related to spirituality. However it also teaches that men and women should be treated differently when biology and sociology have an impact. Women have half the share of men when it comes to inheritance, women are required to have an assistant when they are witnesses, and they have to cover up more of their bodies than men. On the other hand, men have to provide for their wives and women don't have to hand over to men what they earn. Women have equal rights to demand divorce and their property is their own (rights that were given to muslims over 1000 years before Europe saw the light). Unfortunately some cultures oppress women and try and pass it off as Islam. Cheers, Shafique spoonman You cant get an exact answer. There are different sects of Islam and there are completely different reactions. As a non-muslim Iranian, I had serious problems there from getting harrased in school when I was a child to losing basic rights. unfortunately a lot of people don't share the same views as shafique. -In the school teachings of Islamic ethics and theology (where I have my basic knowledge) it was said that friendship with unbelievers is not advised. -Some believe that all non-Muslims are going to hell and some don't. so probably in the afterlife they both go to the same place. -Relationship with non-Muslims are allowed but still there are old-fashioned people who believe that non-Muslims are Najis (untouchable). rudeboy
spoonman we all aint perfect. there are hindu hardliners who hate muslims so much that they will burn them to death rather then being friends with them. what about the KKK and prosecutions of the blacks?
werent the blacks christians? werent the KKK a bunch of christians wearing hoods targetting the black???
as i have said and will keep on saying no1 in this world is perfect. and no religion in the world says go and fight this guy kill him or whatever.
I am best friends with a hindu known the guy for 10 years. even though my mum hates the idea of me having a hindu friends i am still friends with him. yeh i agree with you there are some old fashioned muslims who think that touching the non-muslims etc will get you some disease. just like how the KKK thought of the blacks in USA.
we all aint KKK and we all aint extremists. even those who have a beard happen to be nice ppl. and when i say beard i meant the guys :D shafique
A small correction - there are more than 3 sects in Islam. The number is probably over 300.
Within sunni Islam there are 3 schools of Islamic jurisprudence which is probably what you are thinking of (Hanafi, Maliki and Shafii). However Shia muslims have their own schools of jurisprudence (with a lot of over-lap).
You are also totally correct that not all muslim will believe and practice Islam as I do. My most virulent debates have been with other Muslilms!

Totally agree - well put.
Cheers,
Shafique rudeboy hmmm i really dont understand y there are so many sects and no1 will be able to answer my questions. but all i believe in is one god which is allah and Mohammed PBUH is his last prophet. and the 5 pillars of islam which you have to obide by and go by the Quran. You only answer to god on the day of judgement when he asked you what you did. shafique
All religions get divided into groups - it is part of what makes us human.
There is a famous hadith that says that the Muslim ummah will do every sin that the Jews did - and in the end just like the Jews were divided into 72 sects, so shall the Muslims be divided into 73 sects - all will be hell bound except for one, the one that most resembled the Prophet and his companions.
Obviously, every sect believes they are the one of the 73!
Over time politics starts to get involved, and also egos - and then religion gets so distorted that the whole spirit/essence of the religion gets forgotten and the 'law' becomes paramount - where 'law' is defined by whatever those in power define it as.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
like this guy? (english subtitles)
hate to think what his wife goes through... poor lady.
but according to what you say, they differ when it comes to physical attributes
as this guy explains (english subtitles)
again, i hate to think what his poor wife goes through.
(while i realise not all muslims believe in such atrocities and what is to be considered in any civilised country as rape, its a little worrying that some imams publically preach this) ebonics the women strike back at the imam (english subtitles) - thankfully the women have a voice &feature=related i love the way the female presenter is looking at the guy like an absolute muppet!! shafique ebonics, as you are fan of Monty Python you might appreciate this quote from them : 'SPAM SPAM SPAM, SPAM SPAM, SPAM' :lol: Cheers, Shafique jabbajabba So if I man can marry a non-muslim do the children automatically become Muslim or could they be the mothers religion? For example if dad was a Muslim and mom was a Hindu could the kids be Hindu? shafique
According to Islam, all children are born 'muslims' - inherently good beings who will submit to the will of God.
Islam requires Muslim men to only marry monotheists, so Hindu ladies will typically not be allowed. But your question stands if we say use 'Jewish' or 'Christian' lady instead.
In this case, yes, I suppose the children could be Jewish or Christian. At the end of the day religion is a personal choice. In practice the intention is that they are exposed to both religions and should be able to choose when they are old enough. It will also depend very much on the views of the parents - a Muslim dad may or may not object to their child being baptised, for example. The dad may or may not wish their child to be brought up Muslim.
I don't think Islam has clear dictates on this - and I guess different scholars will have different opinions.
I know a lot of people who have mixed marriages (racially) - however all those marrying muslim men have converted to Islam. I know about 4 muslim ladies who married Christians (some of these ladies are close relatives of mine) and the ladies all basically decided to give up their religion and cut ties with the community - their children are all being brought up without religion (as the fathers aren't particularly religious).
Practically I can vouch for the wisdom of the Quranic injunctions when I look at the relative states of marriages and children in these examples. It's not all rosy either - of my close relatives of my generation - the 3 that have divorced are muslim, whilst the few who married non-Muslims haven't divorced.
However the divorcees have all re-married and my perspective is that the muslims have more 'peace' than those who are now non-Muslim.
It's never black and white - but Islam gives a set of rules which it claims is best for individuals and society. If you choose to be a Muslim, you try and abide by the rules.
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman So, friendship with a non-Muslim is possible, but not advisable? Another (maybe strange) question. When does Islam see a person as a christian or jew? Also within Christianity and Judaism itself, there is the who is a christian and who is jew discussion. spoonman
Still in many muslim societies women don't have the right to divorce, inherit half of what a male can inherit. The testimony of 2 women in court is equal to one man's testimony and it's not their culture, It's simply the ruling sect's definition of Sharia. shafique
Yes - with the qualification that it is not discouraged either. Islam teaches people to look at the actions and intentions rather than 'labels'.

If they call themselves a Christian or Jew, I would consider them such.
Generally, believing in the OT prophets and their message would make one a Jew and believing in Jesus would make one a Christian. I don't think Muslims would get involved in the intra-sect discussions amongst Jews and Christians about who is or who isn't Christian.
However, only in a few instances is there a distinction between humans in general and 'People of the Book' - Islam teaches that humanity is paramount and that personal freedoms should be guaranteed by the state - except where these are to the detriment of society. Freedom of religion is one of the these freedoms which should be guaranteed (and was for most periods of Islamic rule).
Cheers,
Shafique spoonman
By non-Muslim I meant Christians ,Jews and in some cases east asian religions or Zoroastrians . and friendship with them is ok. but a non-believer , defined as infidel (a person who doesn't believe in god) it's not advised. ebonics
you're confusing me with your prophet shafique.
i wouldnt let my wife breastfeed no one but my offspring - just personally.
this quran disection is going to take much longer than anticipated shafique- thanks to your best friend etisalat which bans anything that slightly threats islam or the quran's integrity...
you're going to have to be a little patient with me. shafique No problems ebonics, the longer you take the longer I can remain in my state of blissful ignorance of any flaws in the Quran. :)



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