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This question to all Westerners


Humbleman I know from experience that the majority of Western people are just and peace-loving folks. I know they’d stand up against racism or unfair treatment to another human being. However, what is always puzzling me is that, Western people haven’t done anything that is noticeable (large protest similar to the one against Vietnam War) to voice their opposition and rescue the Palestinian people from the injustice which they are suffering every single day at the hand of the Israeli government. I honestly don’t understand why. I don’t buy all the baloney excuses that the Media are strictly controlled by wealthy Jewish people. In which the truth is distorted and formatted in way which the public can only hear/see/read certain news stories that fit well into the gatekeepers’ agenda. Come on, people in Western countries are fairly educated and well travel, so they surely understand what is happening? Don’t they? By the way, I have nothing against Jewish people. In fact one of my best friends in here is a Jewish, he doesn’t approves of the what is happening to the Palestinian people at all. I hate injustice, and we all know what’s the cause of the conflict in that part of the world – so why can’t we make a stand. You’re thoughts please. Let’s have an intellectual discussion on this one. Peace/love
muyesser given the fact that educational system of Europe is known for being conservative and a system of elite for centuries, it still needs a reform in all EU countries. As a result of it, the percentage of university educated in european continent are quite law; similar applies to the US.. Besides, education is not the only prerequisite for a nation to become aware of the world politics and other social concepts; French farmers may be an example.. Considering that the whole planet is suffering from issues like aids, war, terrorism, global warming, the people of this very planet are still acting nationalistic rather than global.. There fore, the Palestinian issue -I am sad to say it- will suffer those facts for the unseen future.. xl Humbleman Israeli warplanes and helicopters pounded the Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 205 people in the bloodiest one-day death toll in 60 years. USA response is, “Israel should avoid killing civilians.” You get be kidding. However, when Palestinians try to fight off the occupation, they call them “terrorists”. What a double standard and injustice. Where is the value of human right and justice that the United State and other counties preach about! Chocoholic Because it's a topic many of us will nto be drawn on. This is an issue that has been going on forever already. Why should others step in to force a resolve, then can resolve it themselves. THe whole thing is ridiculous in the first place. Sorry, but I'd rather care about people than can do nothing for themselves, like those starving and suffering from AIDS in Africa. twilight-wing Humbleman, I live in Israel. And I want peace, as all of NORMAL people are. But please tell me, where's yourdouble standart when you taking your kids to the school and a kassam hits your car? Or where's "occupation fighting" when the palestenians hurt the most gentle innocent women and children? Nobody wants to hurt civvilians there, but tell me honest, would you live long under a cilty with attacked kindergardens constantly? Did you know that children there cannot sleep at nights and they stay there just because they have no other place to go? We will not argue the historic rights because actually, they not matter anymore. Just not relevant just as Indialns or Aborigins that forever lived at USA and Australia and I dont see Australians or Americans giving back someones land. The point is who's sitting there now. And if Palestenians want, they can leave. And if they want - and unfortunately they dont - there will be peace. The government offered enough, and that just won't satisfy. What will satisfy, is that all 5 million Jews will go and kill themselves - does that look ligoc to you? Have we started with that war? Please open the history book and see who have started to spill the blood. Who have started to teach their children to hate. In our schools we NEVER teach to cause ain, hurt and ut bombs all over our body. No, there is "human rights" and "equal treatment". That's why we sent there, if your newsapers dont write that, tons of medical treatment to civillians. And that's why the alestenian who hit his head yesterday and didnt receive a proper care in palestenian hosital was transferred to Ichilov, in Tel Aviv, to get a treatment. And you know why he was hurt? The kassam that they threw, hit him and killed 2 small palestenian girls. So, please explain me the double standart issue, because I can see that the people there are poor and suffering - buth the only reason is the evil government they choose. Humbleman Dear Twilight First of all, my heart goes out to both Palestinian and Jewish people, they are good people – I wish they sort out this terrible conflict that has been destroying both countries, economically and socially. My dear friend, please let me give you this simple example, If I come to your house and forced you out of it, and then occupy it and refused to give it back to. What on earth would you do to me, smile at me and say good luck occupying my house, or would you try whatever you can to get me out of your house. Look, it’s humans nature to fight and repel when they felt being forced to do or accept something which otherwise they wouldn’t. My friend, I find it laughable and illogical when Israel is occupying the Palestine’s lands and wants to set back and expect them to be inactive or peaceful toward her. Even a child with proper common sense would says of course not. They surely are going to do something in order to get their lands back, just like any other nations would do. Look, 99% of Palestinians and Arabs in that matter don’t want Israel to disappear, they want Israel to gives back the lands that aren’t her and exist within her territories. I see that logical and fair. Why cant Israel does that. I guarantee you if Israel does that then the majority of Arabs will stand by Israel. Look, Arabs don’t hate Jewish people, you have to understand that there are large number of Jewish people lives throughout the Gulf countries, as well as in Iran and other Arab countries, freely and peacefully. In fact the ambassador of Bahrain to United State is a Jewish female. I remember once a watched documentary about the holocaust, and I couldn’t help it but to broke down in tears and feel so sorry for what had happened to those innocent people. I honestly thought, if there is a nation on earth who would know the meaning of justice and compassion would be the Jewish people – because they had experienced the taste of true injustice. I hate the fact that the Israel government has been imprisoned and starving these people, and then massacre them just before a new year – what an inhumane government. Peace/ love Flying Dutchman Humbleman likes to pick on the Jews it seems. Red Chief
WASP killed them all. Are you going to do exactly the same?
As I know about Canadian aborigines their government paid every single person 2000 CAD per month. The amount is enough for drinking during 20 days. The rest 10 days they are very unhappy. arniegang The Arabs like to fight over land, its all they ever do. Even the UAE and Saudi had a fall out a few years ago that would have come to a fight if the late Shiek had not basically told them to take it. Drive from Dubai to Hatta and look at the silly borders with Oman. Humbleman Ariengang you are right in there in term of the importance of lands to Arabs. In their traditions, one has to fight to death in order regain/protect a land. This tradition is deeply ingrained in their cultures and will be there forever. Land in the Arabs cultures is like a supreme honour that must be protected and honoured at all cost. However, they do tend to like compromise, negotiation and truce, as they are good methods of face-saving and avoidance of humiliation. So if Israeli’s government hoping that the land-grapping method, disproportionate force and isolation technique will eventually get the Palestinians to cave in and embrace living as one country, then am afraid their efforts will be in vain, because that’s isn’t going to happen. You do have to understand that lands importance varies from one culture to another. For example, the main reason that the British succeeded at colonizing Australia was mainly because the Australian Aboriginal at that time were a small number of scattered Nomads whom were living in a vast country. They were only interested in hunting and that’s pretty much it and day to day survive. They eventually didn’t mind the British presence because they realized that they wouldn’t survive on their own. And the truth need be told, British has brought blessing to Australia because it helped to create the modern Australia today. Personally, I wish all people realized that we are on this earth to live certain period of times, thereafter we pass away leaving everything behind – so why can’t we get along and live peacefully, and accommodate for one another. I wish I was from a different planet where its humans are more intelligent enough to understand that in order to advance as human beings, thus we have to help one another to a better life, and only then, we can work intelligently (NO religions) to fully understand the universe and how we exactly came about and why we are in it, and how we fit etc. Peace/love

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project3030 Instead of bickering about all these conflicts and feeling sorry for all the people that are being killed or are homeless as a result of war or international events. Why not be thankful for what you have ? and shower our money on women that make us feel good and on alcohol which makes life more enjoyable ? As a 24 yr old muslim college student I will choose to take the more "immoral" path and hope to seek forgiveness from my creator later on in life. When I become old with gray hair I want to look back and say you know what ? I actually had some fun when I was young. project3030 what do you think Humbleman ? I look forward to your response. Dubai Knight The Israel situation is incredibly complex and is the result of political decisions made in a different time when human social values were less considered and governments rode rough-shod across normal sensibilities. At the end of WW2, there was a great outpouring of sympathy towards the Jewish religion as a whole because of the treatment they had suffered at the hands of the Nazi regime. The foundation of Israel was an attempt to appease the situation and was flawed on many levels. Hitler had an even greater plan to relocate every Jew on the planet to the island of Madagascar and turn the whole country into one giant concentration camp! Thankfully he was stopped. The Jews who first arrived in the Levant were hardy, battle hardened and forced to create a new life in what was then a very barren location. They had to fight hard just to survive and this hardened the future generations in almost the same way as the Spartans. Having won a lifestyle from the land (and I will point out that the indigenous peoples of the area had no interest in that land until they saw it become fertile and productive...it was then that they started to make claim) they fought hard to keep it. Any threat to Israel was therefore met with extreme force. A look back at the attempts by Jordan Syria and Egypt in the 1960's to re-claim occupied lands, shows the efficiency of the Israeli defence system. Many people claim the US is propping up Israel with weapons and aid. The Israelis have their own weapons manufacturing industry that is a result of their in-bred need to defend themselves. Its actually one of their biggest export industries now. The problem is an old one: Religion and politics being used to control or incite the masses. Take these out of the equasion and you may see a different future for the Middle East, but unfortunately they suit the objectives of the power hungry few and we will continue to see war and strife from both sides because of it. :( :( :( Knight Humbleman project3030 my friend. I cannot comment on what you said mainly because it’s what you want to do in life. My principle always has been to respect individuals’ choices and lifestyles. :) Peace/Love project3030 Habibi I believe you don't understand what I said. My proposal is to forget about these on going politically motivated conflicts which will continue well into the future because of strategic interests of various major players for xyz reasons. Enjoy life, drink, change women every week, dance and let go of your inhibitions.......by the way im Muslim and not some corrupt western influenced individual Humbleman. Humbleman Here is a brief history about how Israel came about according to Wikipedia
“Early recognition of the Zionist movement
The British Balfour Declaration of 1917 both advanced the Zionist movement and gave it legitimacy. The US Congress passed the first joint resolution stating its support for a homeland in Palestine for the Jewish people on September 21, 1922.[2] The same day, the Mandate of Palestine was approved by the Council of the League of Nations. The League's goals included disarmament, preventing war through collective security, settling disputes between countries through negotiation, diplomacy and improving global quality of life.
Woodrow Wilson was sympathetic to the plight of Jews, in Europe. In 1919 he stated that U.S. policy was to "acquiesce" in the Balfour Declaration but not officially support Zionism.[3] That policy continued until after WWII
During the war, US foreign policy decisions were often ad hoc moves and solutions dictated by the demands of the war. At the Biltmore Conference in May, 1942, the Zionist movement made a fundamental departure from traditional Zionist policy[4] with its demand "that Palestine be established as a Jewish Commonwealth.
One important issue that damaged Palestinian interests in the US and British governments were agreements between Germany and the Palestinian religious leaders. In exchange for their support, Germany would free the Palestinians from British control and grant them a sovereign Palestine
On May 12, 1948, in the Oval Office, Marshall told Truman he would vote against him in the next election if the U.S. recognized Israel.1 In the end, Truman, recognized the state of Israel 11 minutes after it declared itself a nation
Israel–United States relations are an important factor in overall United States policy in the Middle East. The United States Congress places considerable importance on the maintenance of a close and supportive relationship. The main expression of support for Israel has been foreign aid, which Congress monitors closely along with other issues in bilateral relations. Congressional concerns have affected different Administration's policies over the last 60 years.
Bilateral “relations have evolved from an initial American policy of sympathy and support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in 1948 to an unusual partnership that links a small but militarily powerful Israel, dependent on the United States for its economic and military strength.”
Guess the burning question is, why can’t Israeli government adopt some of the peace solutions that have been presented by few countries, if it really after peace.
The latest peace solution comes from the French President Nicolas Sarkozy when he
visited Israel on June 22-24. He really hits Israel where it hurts.
He spoke as an intimate friend - certainly Israel's best friend in Europe - but he did not mince his words, both on his arrival and in the Knesset.
"The time to make peace is now," he told the Israelis. "Tomorrow, it will be too late." Rarely has a foreign leader spelled out so clearly what Israel has to do for peace - and what it has sought at all costs to avoid.
Sarkozy laid particular emphasis on three points, which he hammered in at every opportunity. The first, and most important, was this: "Israel's security will not be truly assured until we see, at last, at its side an independent, modern, democratic and viable Palestinian state."
Two other themes were given equal prominence - and were equally unwelcome to many Israelis. "There can be no peace without an immediate and complete halt to settlements," he declared. The settlers, he said, should be compensated and brought back to Israel. And then - in a statement which was nothing less than sacrilege for Israeli hard-liners - he added: "There can be no peace without recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of two states and the guarantee of free access to the holy places for all religions."
In his reply to Sarkozy, Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was quick to say that "We don't always agree on every issue, on every detail, see things exactly the same way".
At a visit to Israel Condoleezza Rice dared to say that "continued settlement activity has the potential to harm the peace talks." The chairman of the settlement council called her remarks "impertinent and shameless". "Israel he has been spat in the face and the government treats it as rain drops".
The benefits of peace for Israel would be enormous. Normal relations with all 22 members of the Arab League; an end to the armed resistance of Hezbollah and Hamas; a new chapter in relations with Iran.
Peace/Love Humbleman project3030, you seem to have sense of humour hehehe I have to say that the majority of ordinary people in the West especially where I live (NZ) are peace-loving, compassionate and aren’t afraid to make a stand against injustice. In fact there will be a large protest hold tomorrow against what is happening in Gaza. It’s always worth it to stand up peacefully against racism and injustice even if it’s against your own brother/sister. For an experiment, try to do it once, I promise you will experience some sort of inner-satisfactions that you wouldn’t get from alcohol or any other potent drugs. You’d feel you are doing something good for your fellow humans – it’s priceless feeling. By the way, binge drinking is detrimental for your health hehehehe Just out of curiosity, what nationality are you, if I may ask Peace/Love project3030 India Habibi. I will give this peace loving this a try, maybe they will hand out free booze and hashish Humbleman Hehehe Indian people are lovely people; I’ve got few nice friends from India. You take care Peace/Love
bonk
Was that your original question (or two or three)? I'd say no they aren't, and no they don't, in general. Dubai probably has a greater proportion of well-educated, well-travelled, and understanding Westerners.
... actually on second thoughts, I've met as many stupid narrow minded Westerners (and other nationalities) in Dubai as anywhere. I'll just go with more travelled. puppypup What were the Jews doing in the first place creating a nation from a place they left behind for centuries? Jews, Christians, and Muslims were doing okay before modern Israel came along. Look how the Christian Palestinian numbers have decreased. Couldn't the Jews have settled on some barren African land or perhaps Antarctica. Maybe Canada could have given parts of the Northwest Territories. And they weren't the only victims in the holocaust. What about the gypsies? They monopolize the WW2 victimization. I just love how my country and Israel complain about the Muslims but gosh Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Palestine had more Christians decades ago. Iraq was secular. Whatevs, whatevs...... Should Afrikanars go to The Netherlands and claim it as South Africa? Should Malagasys go back to Indonesia and claim it as Madacascar 2? Should Americans go back to England to claim it as ours? Flying Dutchman
You are truly clueless! Dubai Knight
OK, so the number of gypsies sent to the concentration camps was in the tens of thousands, cold as it may seem, its a drop in the ocean compared to the 6 million Jewish lives wasted! They are entitled to make a noise!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Knight arniegang Note to Puppypup.
The Americans didn't discover the UK , it was the other way round. But we dont winge about claiming New England as British. The last 2 large bastians of our empire is Canada and Australia, but even they self govern and they choose to be part of the Empire.
The British Empire that was, is nothing compared to today. Over the last number of decades a countless number of countries have been handed back to their own people.
The Arabs take a different viewpoint, they will have a war over 10 cms of land.
And dont forget who brokered the formation of the 7 Emirates in the 70's. Up until then, and whilst still under British rule, even Dubai and Abu Dhabi were knocking the s.h.i.t out of each other.
PP - here is a simplified chronology of the Israeli/Palestinian problem, it doesnt offer opinions, just the facts. To offer an opinion you need to be in possession of the facts.
puppypup What was so bad about Argentina? Why couldn't they go there for a homeland? Excerpt from the rabbiwein link "Menachem Ussishkin, the longtime head of the Jewish National Fund and a Zionist leader of the first half of the twentieth century, described a meeting that he attended in Warsaw in 1891 of the Chovevei Tziyon - the Lovers of Zion, a pre-Zionist Eastern European organization devoted to settling and supporting Jews in the Land of Israel. At the meeting, a representative of Baron Hirsch, a fabulously wealthy German Jew, advanced a plan to create an autonomous Jewish state in Argentina. Baron Hirsch had bought land all over the world and intended to bring Eastern European Jews to those places in order to extricate them from the Czar's persecution and to lessen anti-Semitism in Europe. He owned land in such diverse places.as North Dakota, New Jersey and Tennessee in the United States, Canada, Australia and South America. He claimed that the Argentinean government acquiesced in this project and would cooperate fully in creating a Jewish autonomous state in Argentina. The representative of Baron Hirsch spoke for three and a half hours explaining the plan and pledging the resources of Baron Hirsch to its fulfillment. At midnight, after Hirsch's representative finally finished his presentation and sat down, an old, stooped figure arose. He was Rabbi Shmuel Mohilever, the rabbi of Biyalistok and one of the founders of Chovevei Tziyon. He said: "May the Lord bless Baron Hirsch for his interest and endeavors and grant him long life and success. But we are going only to the Land of Israel." And that statement ended the meeting." puppypup
It's not known how many gypsies were killed. Some estimates are 500,000. Estimates are at LEAST 200,000 but it could be more because gypsies don't talk. I guess they're like Finns (the talking bit even though nokia and other cell phone companies have helped them in the communications department). :? :lol: Anyway it's estimated 25%-50% of the gypsy population was killed. Doesn't sound like a drop in the ocean to me. Dubai Knight
Read my original post...it says "In comparison" to the 6 million Jewish lives wasted.
All the Finns I know talk...a lot! Just add vodka.
8) 8) 8)
Knight muslimbangladeshi
That's not true. Without direct and indirect American aid, "Israeli" economy, military and politics would have been long dead. You may be pleased to know that even in the 1967 conflict (at that time Bangladesh was called East Pakistan, while West Pakistan was what is today the Islamic Republic of Pakistan) one Bengali pilot/ace had shot down many "Israeli" planes, in fact, if you consider the record of Pakistani (which included today's Bangladeshi) pilots Vs "Israeli" ones, Pakistan lost none of its fighters against them while killing many.
Maybe, having an Islamic Republic favoured Pakistan in its fight against Zionism. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Palestinians themselves are fighting for themselves, for their ethnicity and they have weaker faith, maybe it's god something to do with that. Having secular systems of governments may have been the biggest 'curse' for all these countries in their fight against "Zionism".
Can you name a few systems that "Israel" indigenously developed? All I can see is only American donation. muslimbangladeshi There were more than 25 million Slavs killed in World War II afaik. "Only" 6 million Jews in comparison. Maybe the media, academics, politicians etc tend to hype the "Jewish" plight a lot more. In any case, they should have gone to Alaska or somewhere nobody is interested in. The primary responsbility for the trouble lies with the British (Empire). Chocoholic Typical response from you really wasn't it! :roll: Red Chief
Many... How many? Is there any proof among naratives transfered from a father to a son during last 100 years?
The fact is Israel won during 6 !!! days. If there had been no thread from SU they would've distroyed all Egyptian army with their allies...
They are strong but you are weak... It's the fact... muslimbangladeshi
The numbers can be disputed as "Israel" will hardly want to accede it had lost. "Israel" won during 6 days against secular regimes, and you stating this perhaps strengthens my point further - that it was and is only Islamic countries that can perhaps liberate the occupied people, never puppet or secular regimes that betrayed their mandates.
Had there been no United States, today there won't be any "Israel" to speak of, and neither this thread nor this discussion. Even on this issue of Zionist wanton aggression on innocent civilians backed by the West, mostly USA, the UN wanted to pass a resolution which was vetoed by the USA, as always.
"Israel" is "strong" :P
in accepting donation from USA. Without it, it's no more than a tinpot militia led by radicals.
Look up Saiful Azam against "Israel" air force, if you doubt my statement. Flying Dutchman
Wrong. Also, it stands to no comparison of what Pakistan gets for example from the US.

Are you ignorant or just joking? muslimbangladeshi
Wrong. It is the largest direct recipient of military and economic aid from the USA, not to mention many indirect aid a lot of which escapes the 'scanner' due to influential Zionist lobby groups like AIPAC in the USA, not to mention stranglehold of Zionists in US banking, financial, media and political sector.

Can you answer the question? Flying Dutchman
Ah, spoken as a true antisemite.

Look it up man. Israel produces and develops a lot of weapons itself and sells them also for example to Russia and China. muslimbangladeshi
Ah, spoken as a true ignoramus.
What does antisemitism have to do with facts? If I state "Israel" is a tiny country, will that be anti-semitism? If I state,"Israel"'s GDP is smaller than UAE's, will that be anti-semitism? They are facts!
Moreover Arabs are a larger semitic group than Jews. You spoke like a true ignoramus.

Good way to evade the question. As stated they are all Amerikan donations. Red Chief
Which one did they sell out, sorry for my ignorance? Chocoholic You know, it's really not hard to find info - there's this thing called the internet, with a wonderful facility called google! muslimbangladeshi You know there is this wonderful facility called the google on the internet, where you can find all sorts of drivel from demented youngsters to loony europeans tirading against all and sundry, and clogging up bandwidth with useless made up 'info' that no specialist or well informed person will take a second look at. Flying Dutchman
Mainly UAVs. Chocoholic OMG - just goes to show how naive and dumb you really are! Whatever! Carry on in your deluded little world! Flying Dutchman
I will start with a few, tell me if you want more or have problems working the Google machine.
Uzi
Dror
Galil
Merkava tank
Iron Dome
IAI UAV
EROS satelittes
And tell me your facts about "stranglehold of Zionists in US banking, financial, media and political sector." Flying Dutchman
Blinded with hatred! Chocoholic Pointless dude! We're all wrong and he's right! Because he knows everything about everything, even when it's there in black and white in front of his nose stating facts to the contrary! muslimbangladeshi
Based on earlier Czech design. Not the first nor the last submachine guns.

Common Jewish name, one Dror was shot down by PAF. Which one are you talking about?

Small arms are not invented by "Israel" they were in operation long before Zionists even dreamt of this menace called "Israel".

Proved its effectiveness despite Western media hype against Hezbollah :P

A total failure admitted by the Zionists themselves. Check Haaretz report.

Which one you are talking about? Any tiny nation can and does manufacture UAV. I think at least 30 other nations that manufacture a UAV. It's not necessarily a sign of advancement or indigenous effort, nor financial capability to survive without American aid in all forms.

Again most third world countries have a satellite or two. Fact is they needed to be launched by Russia.

AIPAC for a start.
Moreover all of the weapons you included were developed with American aid, cooperation, transfer of technology etc, not only that many of them failed, most are copies of other systems. Red Chief
I listened that gossip. I thought you have some new one... puppypup If there had been no England, there would be no Israel, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. If there had been no Muhammed there would have been no Pakistan and Bangladesh either, Iran would be Zoroastrian, and Indonesia Hindu. If there had been no Hitler, there may not have been an Israel. Oh the lovely what ifs....... muslimbangladeshi
Even if there had been England, had some people not betrayed their oath, their loyalty to the Sultans, or to the Mughal rulers, Hind would have been under Mughal rule. No need for Pakistan or Bangladesh then. Moreover, unlike Pakistan which was carved out by the British, Bangladesh won its own independence from Pakistan.
Iran wouldn't have been Zoroastrian as we dont know how God has deigned things should happen. Zoroastrianism may also not have started in Iran too if it had not been for Zoroaster.
If not for Indians spreading their views, parts of Indonesia would never be Hindu either.
Point is, England is the cause of the trouble. Not what would happen if such and such had happened, but what is the cause of an event, this misery that this thread is about. On the same note, if not for USA political maneuvering, and all forms of aid to Zionists, the problem would be long over in all likelihoods. Dubai Knight
Sorry buddy,
England is NOT the cause of the trouble. If it was not for us, you would not be communicating on this forum in ENGLISH, a launguage you have obviously been taught in an EDUCATION system. Something that you were probably LEGALLY required to do....all things brought to your country by England.
Without us matey you would still be killing each other with spears, communicating with 2 baked bean cans and a piece of string...in feckin GERMAN !!!
Stop being so damned up yer own arse about being Bangladeshi and read the history of your own damned country! You were given independence as a Muslim state (Eastern Pakistan) however had to fight against Pakistan under Pandit Nerhu and India to retain that independence.
I remember seeing the graphic black and white photographs by Don McCullin taken during your independence war, of Indian prisoners of war being publicly bayonetted by Muslim Bangladeshi soldiers!
Get off your high horse and get some learning!
:x :x :x
Knight puppypup If it weren't for the Jews there would be no Muslims and no Bangledeshis and Pakistanis. If it weren't for that caveman there wouldn't be....... :dontknow: Dubai Knight Whilst in Saudi Arabia, I was doing a TV show with the Minister of Islamic Affairs for the Kingdom. This is a very senior Islamic scholar who was a highly educated and intelligent man. During our discussion before going on air, I asked him several questions: Q. Was The Prophet Mohammed actually the founder of Islam? A. Technically yes, however Allah always existed, he just used The Prophet Mohammed to interpret His word for man. Q. So before he became the interpreter, he could not actually be Muslim as it didn't exist until then? A. Yes Q. So what religion was he before that? A. Ah....er...this is a difficult question... Q. How is it difficult? He must have been brought up in a religious environment? A. Actually he was raised as a Coptic Christian! Q. So he would have been exposed to the Bible then, the early unabridged version? A. Yes, he would have learned it by hearing it told to him as he could not read or write. Q. Have you read the Bible yourself? A. Yes, I studied it at University as part of my overall religious education. Q. So do you not find the similarities between the stories, parables and tales told in the Kor'an and those in the Bible to be more than a matter of chance? A. Allah told The Prophet Mohammed these stories as they are a part of His word to man. Obviously they have similar origins. Q. But surely these tales are about Jewish people in Palestine, not Christians, not Muslims because Christianity only came into being after the 'prophet' Jesus and Islam only came into existence after the Prophet Mohammed? So Islam is only in existence because of the Jews? A. Er...if you look at it this way, yes. Q. So how can you deny the existence of Israel, the Jewish homeland, which is actually Palestine as defined in the Bible, when your religion and your Kor'an is actually based directly on Judaiism? A. We have no problem with the Jewish religion, only with the state of Israel. Q. Why? The Jews have a legitimate claim to it by your own admission! I never got an answer to that! The political reasons given for the hatred of Israel are non defensible in a theological argument. They are purely ones of petty jealousy, bigotry political chicanery and anti semitism. Anyone who wants to give me a SOUND argument can take it to the Philosophy and Religion Forum. I would be interested to hear open, fair debate from both sides without any jingoiistic tub thumping. Don't just spurt peurile religious hatred and dogma as I will ignore it! 8) 8) 8) Knight Humbleman There are seemed to be few people in this forum fully knew that what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians is wrong, inhumane and unjustifiable. Please, stop calling those people who have the courage to stand up and speak against injustice anti-Jewish. The world all over has come to the realization of the Palestinians’ plight, and they are now starting to dig deep below the surface to understand the truth, they knew the Media tend to distort facts, and they cannot be relied upon. One of my majors at the University was Media Studies, so I know how they operate. Interestingly enough, I’ve been watching the media in few Western countries, and all what I’ve seen and heard is the Israeli’s point of views, and their PR practitioners putting out some sneaky statements and reasons to why they have been killing close to 400 innocent Palestinians so far. I’ve never heard from these media why some of the Palestinians have been fire their homemade rockets, or why they have been resisting. They don’t like to report that fact that, these people’s lands are under occupation, and they have been deprived and starved under the hand of Israel’s government, which has resulted to these people to resist and fight back. The truth is that, as long as Israel is protected by the superpower's umbrella it remains deaf to all humanitarian pleas. In truth, thanks to the unconditional support of the US, Israel is the sole country on earth that is a law unto itself. It ignores the Fourth Geneva Convention, which disallows collective punishment and demands an occupying power must provide for the people it occupies, with impunity. It maintains a massive nuclear arsenal under a globally-recognised policy of nuclear ambiguity specific to Israel. In answer to those who dare to criticise it hides behind disingenuous shrieks of anti-Semitism. Look, the solution is very simple than what you’d imagine. If Israel is genuinely wants peace, then it could says to the Palestinians, here is your lands back, and let us leave peacefully in our lands too – it’s that simple to achieve peace, it’s incredibly what is needed for peace. Israel has brushed aside all the fair peace-resolutions which have been presented to it, the last one was by the French President. Now, you tell me if Israel truly seeks a lasting peace, why it can’t accept something like that, huh. This conflict is the major creation of hatred toward the US as they have been seen throughout the world 100 % behind Israel whether if it’s wrong or right. Also hatred toward the Jewish people, as they are seems to be greedy, and self-centred at the expense of so many Americans whom in fact hate injustice. Personally, I just cannot comprehend an impoverished, hungry population whose only weapons are stones and homemade rockets, are being heartlessly massacred by the fourth most powerful army on earth. I thought we pride ourselves as having evolved beyond the cruel level of survival of the fittest. I am honestly embarrassed to be a member of the human race. Finally, please, stick to the topic and try to make a moral stand or at least have unprejudiced opinions input. Let’s not demean the Jewish people or the Palestinian people, let’s say something that’s just, intelligent and constructive in the hope that it might help others to open up their narrow/ignorant minds and realize peace is achievable if the right thing has been done. Peace/Love Humbleman Knight, my friend. Your input has been educational. All Muslims knew that the closest religion to Islam is the Jewish one. They are incredibly similar. So there is no dispute in there. Arabs or Muslim in that matter don’t hate Jewish just because of their religion, no my friend. Jewish people throughout the Middle East are practicing their religion with no problem. You have to understand, the hate that exist now toward the Jewish that live in Israel has stemmed from the conflict between Palestine and Israel – that’s all there is to it. If there was no conflict there would be like brothers, really. Peace/Love Chocoholic There is never going to be an end to the conflict! It'll go on and on and on. bonk
Oh, that's a relief. I was worried about that. Flying Dutchman
People who say Zionists control the US media and financial sector are antisemites. A lot of anti-Zionist sentiment originates from antisemtism. On the other hand anti-Zionists are indeed sometimes called wrongly antisemitists.
But when it comes to people who cannot stop talking about Israel and remain quite when it conerns other issues like Darfur or Congo, I cannot escape the thought they like picking on the Jews.

And on what do you base this conclusion?

And sending thousands of rockets to Israeli urban concentrations isn´t?

And what is Palestinian land?
Hamas says it doesn´t want to negotiate, it says it wants to destroy Israel and its clerics want to murder every Jew. muslimbangladeshi
How convenient a lie or ignorance on show! Tell me really, are you just ignorant or a blatant liar? If you are ignorant of England's atrocities, I suggest you do what you advised to me - learn more. If you are not ignorant, but lying here, end of discussion with a liar.

False. Without Arab Islamic science Europeans including English would be having open intercourse and enjoying alcohol openly. Well they still do, but they learnt some science and technology along the way.
German was NEVER going to be the language in Bangladesh, and it isn't. Nor is English the language used in Bangladesh, so I suggest you act like you advise and read up before spouting inane comments.

Take that advice up "yer own arse" and dont come back until you realize you are talking senselessly. Most of the world recognizes UK as the creator of the most troubles in last few centuries. You don't need to teach me the history of my own country because you know almost nothing about it and surely your post proves it, you probably googled a few one liners and remember a few newsflash/articles in your limey media.
Bangladesh never fought UNDER India, India helped Bangladesh to win against Pakistan, but it's convoluted political history that is not relevant to the thread. Apparently you have a penchant for diverting thread topics because you are either ignorant, a malevolent liar or mentally incapable of conducting logical conversations.

Like I mentioned, you just proved you know nothing about Bangladesh history. You just googled for a few one liners and remember bits and pieces from here and there, seen a newsflash or article in your limey media and try to preach knowledge about events that you have no effing clue about.

It'd be better if you see the fallacies you used, try to correct them and heed your own advice.
Moreover you need to keep the discussion relevant instead of babbling about Don Mcculum or whoever's photography sessions, or such irrelevant issues.
I hope you get the drift.
Now back to the topic. muslimbangladeshi
Come again.
Where did you pull that one from? There is no indication in any academic source in the world that supports your assertions, nor any other form of evidence to sustain your malevolent "wish-wash" muslimbangladeshi
This is irrelevant, and should be discussed elsewhere like you suggested.
1. I'd like to ask, what proof do we have of your interview? Any video recordings? Who was the official in question? What was the language used for the interview?
2 "Israel" has no right to exist on Palestinian land. It could have been settled in Alaska, Siberia, Germany or whereever the locals never objected to it. The primary responsibility lies with the British for this mess.
3 Judaism and Zionism are not same. There are Jews against Zionism. Learn more before you spout more tripe, it'd do your credibility a lot of good.
4 Islam is NOT derived from Judaism, it is believed that the true message was delivered to many prophets and messengers. The first prophet was Adam (PBUH), the first man, and the last one and most respected messenger was Hazrat Muhammad (May peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Musa (AH)/Mosem, Issa (AH)/Jesus, Yusuf (AH) and many others were sent with the message from God.
5 Judaism is not the first nor last monotheistic religion, even if you look at the issue from a theological student's view point. muslimbangladeshi
Humbleman brother, well articulated post with very good points. Justice and fairness should be and has to be the basis for all actions and all codes of action.
Flying Dutchman, are you a Jew? Just curious.
"Israel" could not have survived without Amerikan donation and aid in all forms. Even for this assault killing hundreds of Gazan civilians, the UN resolution was blocked by only the USA, using its veto. And this has been the historic pattern.
Quite rightly everybody knowledgable about this conflict blames USA for propping up "Israel". Now Hamas, AFAIK, never said "Kill Jews in Iran, kill all Jews, from as far apart places as Morocco, Russia, India, or China". Hamas wants removal of the illness, the tumour called "Israel", a fair call.
AIPAC is just one of the many influential Zionist lobby groups in the USA, the media, financial, political and banking stranglehold on Amerikan lives by Zionists is easy to see and factually accurate, for those interested. Flying Dutchman
No.

Oh, just the Jews in Israel...that makes it OK or something?

A fair call hey? Showing your true colours...defending genocide.

I am interested, show me! Dubai Knight
I will respond to this when I return from my New Year celebrations...
Take your religious blinkers off and be ready to have an open mind...
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Knight reviewer
DK...You're asking too much from this guy......its mission impossible..... 8) muslimbangladeshi
That makes your statement wrong. I corrected your wrong statement. Hamas also does not have anything against individual Jews but like every other self respecting individuals, they have the will and right to live on their own land, land that belongs to Palestinians.

Defending removal of Zionism is not akin to genocide, if NOBODY loves you in your neighbourhood, and you arrived there through terrorism, manipulation, deceit, occupation and wanton violation of basic human rights, you dont need to be there. Zionists can go to Germany if they want.

Watch Fox News, or any other Amerikan media or their news media, be it print, broadcast, online or whatever, is only spouting pro Zionist propaganda.
Look at folks like George Soros who are some of the biggest financiers in that country. List is long, here are some links.
These may help. AIPAC is the most obvious and blatant example of Zionist domination of Amerikan politics. muslimbangladeshi I ask the nonmuslim foreigners in Dubai to respect and try to assimilate to the culture, values, customs, religion and way of life of Dubai. Its courteous to not hurt your host's sensibilities and sensitivities. Those foreigners, specially some of the more ill informed and petulant Westeners, that refuse to observe these actions are kindly urged to stay home, find a better life for themselves and their tastes. Flying Dutchman
From the Hamas Convenant:
"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious"
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews)"
"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Its pushing Jews into the sea... Flying Dutchman
Please go on, this is the part I like.... muslimbangladeshi Give me a link Dutchman Flying Dutchman
A link for what? The Hamas Convenant?
muslimbangladeshi Not surprised. I see Amerikan source, moreover there is a certain Avalon , and Goldman in there. Had you been in their shoes, you would be baying for all Muslims' blood. In the last few years alone, Westerners have killed more than millions of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan alone. puppypup
I ask Muslims foreigners in Western nations or in any non-Muslim nation to try to assimilate to the culture, values, customs, religion and way of life too.
Its courteous to not hurt your host's sensibilities and sensitivities.
Those foreigners, specially some of the more ill informed and petulant Muslims, that refuse to observe these actions are kindly urged to stay home, find a better life for themselves and their tastes. muslimbangladeshi
Wrong place. This is DUBAI forums. A little common sense may help Flying Dutchman
"Political debates. Discussing important local and global issues." kanelli
:lol: Sounds like what some people are saying about Foreigners/and/or Muslims in Western countries.
Interesting posts Humbleman and DK. arniegang
The "american source" is just a library. A library is a place or a builing that stores documents and books, both fiction and non fiction.
In this instance FD has just pointed out a "particular document" that happens to be the Hamas Covenant of 1998 obviously wriiten and approved by Hamas.
Why do you not discuss this? Is it because it contains things you do not accept or want to accept? muslimbangladeshi
What does "Dubai forums" mean? arniegang
No FD, no no no you have it all wrong. You ommitted to mention this:.............

So now we know God God hates the Jews and he and the Prophet are telling the Palastinians to do this. So its their fault it all kicked off last week.
So are there 2 Gods ?? 1 that hates the Jews and 1 that loves them. kanelli If you were around this forum long enough you'd see that this forum is for all kinds of politics talk, not just Dubai-related or Muslim-related. muslimbangladeshi
Not very obvious when the source is as mentioned. muslimbangladeshi
No. Instead of acting like an ignorant moron, you can discuss religious issues in designated thread/subforum, rather than deviating from the thread topic. kanelli If there are more personal insults like calling people morons etc., then this thread goes to Fight Club. arniegang Thanks K I was just going to say the same myself. Happy New year to you and P and baby K arniegang
Ah i see, so the copy of the Koran held in this library is not the correct Koran??
Which bit of my description about a library holding or displaying copies or originals documents didn't you quite understand ?
Or are you saying this particular American Library alters the original documents?
Or are you saying because it is an American Library then all American Library's alter all their documents and books ?
Or are you saying just this particular library doesn't normally alter documents and books, just this copy of the Hamas constitution?? Humbleman Guys, some of you here remind me by my high school time (it was fun though hehehe), when we used to bickered over little things, and tit for tat was the ritual. Why are you so fixating on religions, nationality, colours and all these irrelevant issues? Come on, let’s go beyond that. We all are decent human beings regardless. This forum is for everyone whether he/she a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Gay, Lesbian, or anyone who is interested to post a political opinion. If it’s not then I’ll refuse to visit it again, just to voice my opposition even though am an Arabic decent. However, it’s professional that one should put his/her prejudice etc aside when contributing input, and keep within the original topic. And let’s not hurt each others’ feeling by quoting misleading sources, all religions are good in the eyes of their beholders. I learned a long time ago that I mustn’t judge anything unless I have a first hand experience. Our inputs should be constructive and to the point. You see, if we stop the categorization of others, for example, this people are white, this people are black, this people are poor, this people are Muslim, this people are Christians and so on. The world we live in would be more peaceful and beautiful. Categorization is you usually incite discrimination, dislike, separation and so on, because once we tend to believe that someone is don’t share our own value, belief and colour, thus, we view him/her as different from us. And once we established that this person is different therefore we are more likely to treat him/her differently than what we would do with the people that who we think share the same value, beliefs etc. So let’s think of one another as humans who share the same DNA first and first and for most. And it’s ok to differ on opinions, taste etc, because after all that’s what make humans a unique species after all. The people in Tokyo do things differently than the people in the State, and the people in Dubai do things in a way that is dissimilar to their fellow humans in the West. Imagine how boring and mundane would it be if all humans behave and do things in a similar fashion. Let’s spread the love, let’s respect each others’ differences and try to smile at strangers, because smile is a universal language in all humans’ dictionaries. Wish you all happy, peaceful and prosperous New Year. Let’s all wish that the powerful countries have the convection to use military force to put an end to the conflict between Palestine and Israel, and say to the two counties that they have to abide by what’s fair and right, and then them forcefully implement it once and for all. Peace/Love muslimbangladeshi Humbleman brother great post again. It seems you may have been influenced by "liberalist left winger" propaganda while living in some Western country which makes you accept gays and faggots. I can't do that. I have nothing against Christians, I already mentioned it in another thread. Best wishes to all. Arniegang, let's stick to the topic. Take your frivolous off the track discussion elsewhere plz muslimbangladeshi
I haven't seen that part yet (calling someone a moron) Humbleman “It seems you may have been influenced by "liberalist left winger" propaganda while living in some Western country which makes you accept gays and faggots.” Sorry guys if this is off-topic, I just have to reply to Muslimbangladeshion this one. Muslimbangladeshi, my dear friend, you sound an intelligent and nice guy. However I beg to differ with on you on this one. Here is my personal opinion about whether I think gay/lesbian is right or wrong. From humans off-spring point of view it’s very wrong, because you need a man and woman to make a baby. However, from a scientific point of view, I must say the majority of Gay and lesbian go through gender confusion. In other words, they don’t have a sense of what part of the aisles they are in, a male or female. Scientists called them “the third gender”. At the university we studied a subject called “genders and societies”, and it was terrible what these people have to go through just to discover who they are. If liberalism refers or emphasizes on, true justice, human right, respect others point of view/their personal circumstances, respect women, dislike those governments in some countries especially in African and in Asian who are corrupt/self-served and give it damn about the development of their own people and countries. Then my friend my proud to say yes I am a liberalist. There are so many killers and murders out there who don’t get the same hate as these groups of people (Gays Lesbian), just look at the Israeli government for instance. At work we have two gays and I must say that they are the friendliest and politest people that ever met, moreover, they don’t impose their beliefs or lifestyles on others at all, and that’s suit me very much. So would I pay less respect or think less of someone who is gay or lesbian, absolutely not. They are human first and for most, and for that they demand a fair treatment from me. Would I want my son or daughter to be that way, absolutely not, but would I hate or cast him/her aside, absolutely not. Muslimbangladeshi, you know that Islam is a religion of mercy, understanding, tolerance, and all those good traits. If Muslim people see Islam as what it is, and stop cultural values from hijacking it and interpret it according to how they see the world around them, Islam would be sought after by so many people around the world. By the way, you do actually not alone disliking these groups of people. We have some Christian groups whom from time to time run covert campaigns targeting these harmless people. Finally my brother, you have all my respect, but on this one I just have to differ with you Peace/love Chocoholic [quote="muslimbangladeshi"
No. Instead of acting like an ignorant moron, you can discuss religious issues in designated thread/subforum, rather than deviating from the thread topic.
Wow Dude, so now you even forget what you're writing! kanelli Nice post Humbleman. Hom.o.s.e.xuality is also present in many other animal species as well, not just humans. This proves to me that it is actually and natural biological phenomenon for a small percentage of animal populations to be ho.mo.se.xual. And yes, I do think that humans are animals, just highly intelligent dominant ones. arniegang
My post was merely reponding to your accusation that the Hamas document is in someway fake because it happens to be displayed in an American Library.
You have chosen to not respond and tried to divert the issue. This is fairly typical of someone who walks around wearing rose tinted glasses. muslimbangladeshi
Humbleman brother, again another well thought through post.
I dont agree with your views on gays/lesbians at all, but I will try not to derail this thread Inshallah.
If needed, we can discuss this issue elsewhere. The following is a brief summary of the issue at hand. Perhaps we can discuss this furhter in another thread. To be honest, because some gays/lesbians aren't violent doesn't mean they are harmless. They harm the entire foundation of your society. You admitted you won't like your children to be one of them.
Hypothetically speaking, what if tomorrow I say, I just have a penchant for holding "Auschwitz" style concentration camps, it's not harming any one just my personal trait. Will I be liked, adored, allowed to freely conduct these activities in let's say countries like Germany or Austria? No!
Yet these very countries spring to the forefront when it comes to defending supposed 'freedom of speech' (which doesn't exist at all in their own countries) by insulting Islam and the Prophet (PBUH).
It is these countries, morally depraved ones with youths gone astray, where family structure is breaking apart, and relationships outside marriage are the norm.
These very same countries advocate and preach the harmlessness of 'gaiety' by inducing gullible people to fall for their trap. Firs they ask for gay rights, then reduce you to their level by imposing ban on Sharia laws, imposing their culture on the local populace in Dubai by having intercourse openly in beaches, walking around semi naked in bikinis, always drunk/semidrunk, and many other lascivious activities to weaken the very foundation on which the society of Emirates and many others around the world are built.
This treacherous tendency unfortunately is not easy to see and only the most prying eyes with a penchant for analyzing social trends in various countries, cultures and regions can sift through them for relevant facts. You will find that many Emiratis are very disgruntled by these Westerners 'ruining' the world. muslimbangladeshi
Only if you knew the difference between "acting like a moron" and being a "moron".
You can be very well educated and well mannered but sometimes act like a boor, for instance. Nothing against you personally, it was just an example. muslimbangladeshi
Again you show a tendency to derail a thread. Discussing in English language fora may be "typical" of Anglo Saxons, British or other similar descendents, BUT not all English language forum participants are native English speakers (Anglo Saxons, British etc) even though it may be 'typical'.
You could have concluded this issue with ease either by sticking to the thread topic and not diverting the topic, or by providing some other source that can be taken as unbiased. arniegang
It still holds no water my friend. FD posted something quite relevant to the topic, you responded with "your opinion", and i responded as such.
The problem here is you dont want to address it under the guise of being "off topic". Maybe you should have pointed this out to FD before making your own challenge to his post.
Lets be frank, you dont want too, because you cant.
As it happens, i have re-read all the posts here and there is very very little off topic from the OP. arniegang
Just to make things crystal clear this is the OP. The sub discussion to which you call "off topic", is actually bang on target. Hamas is part of the "injustice" and FD was quite correct in pointing out the copy of their constitution from a Library.
As i previously stated, you challenged this, and i in turn challenged you.
All "on topic" i am affraid. muslimbangladeshi
Come again. I see your and my own quotes. Where does the Dutchman come into YOUR arguments?
You could simply point to another source, you haven't.
You just drag this irrelevant part of your post on and on. Just bring an end to off topic parts.
You act as if you know what I want. Is there a need to tell you how stupid you sound? muslimbangladeshi
Are you saying Hamas actually killed 400 Palestinians? Are you actually saying the only neutral source you could find was that one for Hamas covenant? Why aren't you willing to provide another source? Is it because there aren't? Or because Zionist lies will be exposed?
Your mental aptitude may well be judged by these posts, although online fora aren't the best medium for making such judgments. arniegang The source as previously discussed is a copy of the Hamas constitution 1998. Its source is Hamas and a copy of it is in many libraries around the world. You appear to want to challenge it.
FD post is relevant because it was he who posted the information.
Which bit of that dont you understand?

I never said any such thing as you well know. However it is clear from the Hamas constitution that one of their main aims is to annihilate every Jew from this planet.
You can be really quite rude you know. It would be greatly appreciated if you would refrain from calling people "stupid" just because they have an alternative viewpoint to yourself. muslimbangladeshi
Sorry mate, your a Westerner who is angry because I uttered some unpleasant truths about Westerners. I am sorry to have offended any nice Westerner out there.
Did you notice the two of us are alternating between the two threads in this subforum, pretty much clogging up the 'cyberspace' ? :lol:
No intention to call you stupid, nor did I call you that if you check. I ASKED you if I need to point out how stupid YOUR COMMENTS sound.
Now onto the topic at hand, who is responsible directly for the killing of 400 Palestinians in last few days? If you claim it's Hamas, I won't even ask for a source as you will perhaps link to some obscure "library" whose collection you seem to take as incontrovertible. arniegang Angry Far from it my friend. I just have an alternative viewpoint to you. Fortunately i am able to express myself without the need to be rude to you and hopefull respectful at all times. For example, in the other thread i would never dream to accuse you of being a liar like you did to me. If you want peoples respect, then be polite and respectful to others, for it is you who appears angry. And you certainly dont offend me when you point out Western issues. Far from it, In fact i agree with most of what you say. The difference between us is you dont appear to respect our opinion about aspects of Arab culture and its misgivings that happen to not be dissimilar to us westerners. bonk
Ha ha. Just like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Videla, Pinochet, Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic were not harming anyone, right? Perhaps you could fill them with westerners who disagree with you? bonk PS, You could start with these good-for-nothing lascivious forum dominatrixes ...
muslimbangladeshi
Well I am sorry that the Internet is not easy for communicating emotions. You may have got the wrong impression due to possible misunderstandings. What "Israel" did and is doing in Gaza is beyond reproach, moreover the inaction of the entire world is shocking, and beyond belief.
Then I hear you, and a gang of your cronies, who shout pro-zionist comments in a Dubai forum. Nevertheless I never did say that you are a 'liar', 'stupid' or whatever else I have been accused of saying derogatorily.
You perhaps need to read the entire sentences carefully for better understanding. There are humans, who are not infallible, living in this world. It's wise to try to get along. No problems there.
Problem is when I see and hear widespread hypocrisy. Westerners are and have been the cause of most of the trouble in the world. They won't admit it, instead go around blaming or pointing fingers at others, that's a poor show in my book.
There are lots of issues to discuss. I dont' have time. Got to go. Inshallah I will discuss these issues later, maybe tomorrow. I hope so. Humbleman I’d like to conclude this thread First of all thank you very much for all your inputs, much appreciated. If you can remember one of the major international issues that happened just right before the 2008 Chinese Olympic. It was the Tibet issue. Majority of all Westerns countries severely criticized the Chinese government and even some of them went that far to call for boycotting the Olympic. They threw all their supports behind the Tibet ritual leader Dalai Lama and called him a freedom fighter, whereas the Chinese government sees him as a terrorist. What’s more interesting in this is that, Western governments made compelling noises even though there was hardly any Tibetans death, it actually was the other way around, Tibetans were the one who killed some Chinese business people and destroyed their premises. However, Western government criticisms were flaming against the Chinese until Georgia and Russian conflict engulfed all their attention. Now compare that with what the Israeli government has been doing toward the Palestinian people and the massacre that is taking place so we speak (over 400 people have died over only 6 days). It’s no-brainer to see and notice their disgusting double-standards and their avoidance to speak up against the shameful injustice that happening right before their eyes in the 21st century where we thought we value all humans’ lives regardless of their religions, race, colours – but little did I know. Western governments’ alibi has been that, Hamas is the one to blame, thus, they can’t do anything. Are you retarded or pretending that you don’t know that Palestinians have been under cruel occupation, have no right to travel, have no right to bring tourists to their cities, have no right to send their kids overseas to studies unless they get a permission from the Israeli authority, cannot lives dignifying life just like any other humans in this planet. Now, if you were in their situation, what on earth would you do? Or what would you do if your brother or sister or fathers or some of your relative get killed just because he/she says no to occupation, and no to a degrading life? Think about it. Where are justice and human rights that Western governments always preached about to the rest of the world when they are desperately needed. Or it’s a matter if convenience, When Western governments feel safe and secure then they lecture the rest of world about these two values, but when they found themselves insecure and threaten they scramble to enact laws that disregard and circumvent these two important values. Just like The Abu Ghraib Prison and Qatana Mobai, racial profiling and so on. Moreover, when one of their non-allied commit injustice they collectively voice their clear oppositions, but when an allied commit cruel injustice some of them choose to offer unconditional supports and some of them choose to keep silent as if there was nothing happened. The reason why I posted my original questions is because I was hoping to understand that why the Westerner government seem don’t care about Muslim peoples’ lives. I myself not into religion at all, but I do understand the meaning of justice and human rights. I lived in few Muslim countries and I found them peace-loving, friendly and tolerance, just like their fellow ordinary people in the West. Even though, most of Muslim countries are still undeveloped or developing and half of their populations are not well-educated, I found them gracious toward other cultures and religions. Unlike in some Westerns countries, if they feel their neighbor is a Muslim they’d get scared and edgy for no obvious reason - no surprise in here when we know that the Media have been running a fear-mongering campaigns against Islam, and they are the one who to blame for that). I met lovely lady who worked in Saudi Arabia for few years, and when I told her that I also worked in the Gulf she just went on and on about how she loved the culture once she understood it. Those of you who have or are working in Dubai might have experienced or noticed how safe and freely one can live in the Muslim world. Of course, like anywhere you go in the world you do have to abide by certain laws and customs, the Middle East countries are no different in that matter. However, from what I gather from you contributions is that you too seem to follow the same pattern of putting the blame on Hamas, no one even said what Israel has been doing is inhumane and wrong. The media also in some Western countries are saying the same thing and portraying Hamas as evil and Israel government as the hero. Which lead me to conclude few reasons about the whole matter, these reasons are: 1: Western governments are Islam-phobic and therefore don’t give it damn about the Palestinian lives and plight. Or 2: Want Israel to take over Palestine and kill as many till they give in and brace Israel as one country. Or 3 Ignorant about the conflict, which I don’t think so as some of you live in an Arabic country and at least have some good understanding of the conflict. Or 4: Maybe Western governments forgot that Muslim people are in fact humans too. Love you all, regardless of your religion, race, color, class, gender. And please remember that, there is always once thing that tends to live longer and keep our names in the minds of other long after we die, this thing is called legacy. So let’s not differ from doing the honorable thing and stand up for what’s just and fair, as such a stand will guarantees the longevity to our legacy. Finally, if have offended any one, then I offer my ample apologies. Peace/Love Red Chief
Dear Humbleman,
You are absolutely right about double-standard. When Georgian tanks entered S. Ocessian capital at night in the eve of the Olimpic Games and killed more than 10 000 civilians during a day striking for residential buildings with sleeping ppl. Western governments blamed Russia who prevented genoside.
Nobody cancelled the Olimpic Games and I can't find your crying on this forum that time...
So I think you should find better place for sympathy... Flying Dutchman You will find most Westerns sympathic with the Palestinian cause. But blowing yourself up in markets or sending thousands of rockets onto Israeli cities in not the way.
Where are those people criticizing Israel when Muslims do the killing? Where are they concerning Sudan etc.? That´s where you start to hear the defeaning silince. Where were they when the Lebanese army moved into a Palestinian refugee camp and killed hundreds? I bet, they were are silent!
I found this article refreshing:
Humbleman
Red Chief, my friend
I actually wrote about the conflict between Russian and Georgia as it was happening in a different forum. I was enraged to read /hear in the BBC, CNN and some other Western Media that Russia was cruel run by a warmongering regime etc, and Georgia was the victim. When in fact it was the other way around, Georgia was the one who invaded Ossetia first.
See, the reason that these Media chosen to obscure and distort the facts of the conflict was mainly because Russian is non-allied but Georgia is.
Peace/Love Humbleman Dutchman, my friend “the Lebanese army moved into a Palestinian refugee camp and killed hundreds” That’s exactly what am saying, the world don’t give it damn about the Palestinians’ lives. “blowing yourself up in markets or sending thousands of rockets onto Israeli cities in not the way” You know as I know that 99 % of the people in the Middle East are against that, and Islam 100 % forbid that. However, this sort of action beg the question that why would a human being blow himself and others. See, researchers throughout history pointed out that injustice and desperation are the primary motive that drive human beings to do such thing. I guarantee you if you were living in Palestine, you’d feel life isn’t worth living. And here is why, Palestinians have been under cruel occupation, in other words, Israeli government has beeng building new houses for new settlers at the expense of Palestinian farmers. Palestinian life in general is like hell on earth, because of the restrictions that Israel government has been imposing on them. On top of that, Palestinians who lives overseas have no right to return to their homes. I am not saying that the Muslim world is that perfect, no, Muslim leaders are ineffective when it comes to sort out their back yards. And that’s why the world shouldn’t rely on them to sort out the Palestinian’s plight. You see, where there is injustice there will be a sort of resistance. I just wish that Israeli government comes realize that to achieve a real peace, she has to gives back the Palestinian territories and exist within her territories and stop being greedy, so the Middle East would finally have a lasting peace. Is there is an academic research saying one of the major creation of terrorism and hatred toward the US in the Middle East is primarily stemmed from the Palestine and Israeli conflict. Peace/Love Flying Dutchman
That´s right. More Palestinians are killed by Arabs than by Israeli´s. They are squeezed in between Israel, their own leaders and the rest of the Arab world. Remember, Kuwait ethnically cleansed its country from more Palestinians than are currently living in Gaza.

Are you serious? There are enough Islamic clerics and fatwa´s that encourage to blow yourself up. Saying all Israeli´s are legit. targets, even pregnant mothers, because the baby might evolve into an Israeli soldier in 18y and something months.

It is not OK, but...it is the buts that are also trying to legitimize these kinds of actions.

What are the Palestinian terrotories? How come Palestinians donot claim their national right in 75% of the original Palestine Mandate (which included Transjordan)? How come the Westbank and Gaza were not considered Palestinian land before 1967 when it was ruled by Egypt and Jordan? kanelli Humbleman, I would say it is numbers 1 and 3 on your list. It is so true that many Muslims overlook the atrocities committed by Muslims against fellow Muslims - instead they get riled up about the incidences when non-Muslims are doing the killing. Still, none of that excuses what the Israeli army has done. Palestinians have been living in horrible conditions under Israeli occupation and something needs to be done. Both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace with plenty of food, good shelter, good security, good education and good health care etc. It is a huge injustice if one side is choking the life out of the other, which is what Israel has been doing.



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