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The Quran contains no contradictions - Discuss


valkyrie Yesterday I wrote an e-mail to the people at 'ask a geologist'. Today, one of them quickly responded with the following note:

So...
The Koran is factually in error regarding the function of mountains preventing the earth from shaking.
The Koran is factually in error regarding mountains as immovable.
shafique Valkyrie - I thought I'd read up on the commentaries again, as I was sure I had read that geology had confirmed that mountains damped down earthquakes as per the following verse:
Al-Anbiya' Chapter 21 : Verse 31
And We have placed in the earth firm mountains lest it should quake with them; and We have made therein wide pathways, that they may be rightly guided.
However, you are right the reply you got from the geologist goes against this verse and my understanding.
So, this is what I had read

"..Geology has established the fact that mountains have, to a great extent, secured the earth against earthquakes. In the beginning the earth was very hot from the inside. When as a result of the intense heat gases were formed in the bowels of the earth, they forced a way out, thus causing violent agitations and eruptions in the forms of volcanoes, which having cooled down took the shape of mountains (..Ency Brit under 'Geology'). The verse may also signify that the mountains are a great help to the earth in moving steadily on its axis. The Quran spoke of the earth as 'moving round' long before it was discovered it was not stationary and moved on its axis and round the sun."
I also Googled - and yes there are a number of claim and counter claims out there on the subject. Some say that the 'shaking' prevention from mountains is really referring to the stability of the earth in spinning, rather than earthquakes (as in the latter part of the commentary).
I am personally not satisfied with these explanations and have to say that the Geologist's opinion that mountains do not prevent/mitigate earthquakes is not compatible with this verse.
Therefore, this verse is either scientifically incorrect or the geologist's opinion is incorrect.
[As a non-geologist though, once a mountain range has formed, I would have thought that earthquakes would subside as the 'bulging' forms a pressure valve for the tectonic plates. Using the analogy provided by the geologist (and high school geography), earthquakes happen when pressure has built up and the plates have no where to go - so with a deck of cards, there is pressure and trembling up until the cards buckle - but when they buckle, extra pressure causes a rise in the cards, but a relatively smooth rise and not the 'trembling'.
Therefore, aren't the mountains a sign of significant historical (geologically speaking) movements, and now with these in place the violent movements that caused the mountains are gone and we are left with the (geologically speaking) lighter earthquakes of today.
I mean, it goes without saying that we haven't seen a new mountain range form in the past few million years.
Therefore, perhaps the Geologist is not thinking far back enough to the earthquakes and geological movements that caused the mountain ranges to form. I'd be interested in hearing whether they agree or disagree that we have fewer earthquakes/upheavals in our current time than at the time before mountains were formed (as the Quran is saying mountains reduce earthquakes - the contention would only be wrong if mountains, or the process making mountains, had no effect on the stability of the surface of the earth)]
I also did a search on reference to mountains - some say mountains are firm, others say in the final days mountains will become like dust..
TaHa Chapter 20 : Verse 105
And they ask thee concerning the mountains. Say, 'My Lord will break them into pieces and scatter them as dust;
Al-Naml Chapter 27 : Verse 88
And thou seest the mountains, which thou thinkest to be firmly fixed, pass away as the clouds pass away - the handiwork of Allah Who has made everything perfect. Verily, He is full Aware of what you do.
Al-Kahf Chapter 18 : Verse 47
And bethink of the day when We shall remove the mountains and thou wilt see the nations of the earth march forth against one another and We shall gather them all together and shall not leave any one of them behind.
Al-Haqqah Chapter 69 : Verse 14
And the earth and the mountains are heaved up and then are crushed in a single crash, ,
Al-Muzzammil Chapter 73 : Verse 14
On the day when the earth and the mountains shall quake, and the mountains will become like crumbling sand-hills.
Al-Qari`ah Chapter 101 : Verse 5
And the mountains will be like carded wool.
Al-Nahl Chapter 16 : Verse 15
And He has placed in the earth firm mountains lest it quake with you and rivers and routes that you may find the way to your destination.
Al-Naba' Chapter 78 : Verse 7
And the mountains as pegs?
This when read in context is asking a question - v6 'Have We not made the earth as a bed, (v7) And the mountains as pegs? v8 And we created you in pairs, v9 And made your sleep for rest.
So for me, this verse is asking a question - is the earth not +as+ a bed and the mountains are (relative to the earth) pegs in it?
(Again, Google shows articles from Muslims explaining what 'pegs' mean - that mountains penetrate into the crust etc, and counter arguments that mountains are formed from tectonic plates. I think that in this verse pegs is just a juxtaposition to the previous verse which talks of the earth as a bed).
Apologies for the long post - but always happy to research Quranic verses and always amazed how much can be said about them! :)
Cheers,
Shafique shafique After posting the above, I came across this work from 1991:
http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/91/911001Arc1138.html
Volcanic action can prevent earthquakes -- sometimes
STANFORD -- There are well-documented associations between earthquakes and volcanoes, but two Stanford geophysicists have found evidence for an unexpected twist to that relationship.
Instead of increasing the pressure that causes earthquakes, molten rock sometimes may prevent large quakes by filling spaces in the Earth's stretching crust that otherwise would form faults.
Their explanation -- based on a study of underground flow of basaltic magma, a molten rock from deep in the earth that sometimes creates volcanoes - may change how volcanic and earthquake hazards are assessed.
[snip] valkyrie shafique, Is 27:88 a description of mountains today, or is it a prophecy regarding what will happen to mountains at the day of judgment? shafique Still on the subject of mountains and plate tectonics, I didn't realise that one verse talked about the Mountains appearing to be fixed whilst actually were in motion.
I found some articles on the subject which talk about how on one level the mountains are 'floating' but on another level are still 'fixed' (mountains don't move according to normal human interaction, and therefore are fixed in that regard - but in actual fact they are moving very slowly and are 'floating like clouds' - something that commentators would have not comprehended until the last century when plate tectonics was discovered!):
This verse of the Quran says that whilst it appears the mountains are fixed, they are actually moving:
Al-Naml Chapter 27 : Verse 88
And thou seest the mountains, which thou thinkest to be firmly fixed, whilst they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds - the handiwork of Allah Who has made everything perfect. Verily, He is full Aware of what you do.

The Qur’anic overview outlined above, in particular the verse ( C h . 2 7 : v.88], appears to be contrary to the commonly held views about the rigidity of the earth and the mountains, and has presented considerable difficulty to earlier commentators.
However, during the last few decades an enormous amount of information has been obtained about the
e a r t h ’s formation, structure, geologic history and its interior
processes. The earth is now viewed not as a solid and rigid body, but as
a dynamic, ever changing and living planet. As a result a
scientific field of study referred to as plate tectonics has evolved.
The above is new to me - and I'm still going to look into the mountains/earthquake issue further!
Cheers,
Shafique[/i] shafique I believe that the Quran does not contain any contradictions or inconsistencies. However, some people do make this accusation against the Quran. Happy to explore each one in turn to see whether we can uncover whether these are indeed contradictions/inconsistent. For the record, I believe that no verse of the Quran has even been abrogated (superseded by another) - some Muslims do believe certain verses have been abrogated, but I do not (another thread can be started if some Muslims want to debate this separate, but related, topic). Cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman A few come to mind. If you want I can specify the relevant verses -Age of marriage : different ages are mentioned -Drinking alocohol: first its permitted, later on not. Same with gambling. Alcohol is called Satans´s work and still in paradise rivers flow with wine. Satan´s work in paradise??? -Rewards for Christians: different rewards or punishments are specified -Number of days of creation: different numbers are specified Also the whole description of embryonic development and female sperm specified in Quran is wrong according to modern views. I can go on, but lets start with above mentioned. shafique Thanks FD - a good list to start from.
Let's tackle the first one - minimum age. Can you please post the verses for this point and I'll tackle it (this is a new one for me - I don't recall the Quran talking about a minimum age - but rather who one can and cannot marry. )
[Briefly, the other points I am aware of - I'll give you the references when we get to them, but the answers will be:
- alcohol - never permitted in earlier verses, just that one should not perform prayer when not in control of senses (so verses still applies), and the Quran clearly states that the 'wine' in heaven is not 'alcohol' as it does not intoxify - and elsewhere states that the after-life is not imaginable by humans because we do not yet have the senses to experience this - it says we 'cannot imagine what the after life will be'
- creation of the earth - talks of periods, days etc. No inherent contradictions and verses in Quran clarify that a 'day' for God is not the same as 24hr. I think all hangs together cohesively - but we'll see.
-rewards for Christians - there are verses saying clearly what will be punishable by God and what will not be. Muslims are also promised hell for certain acts.. my recollection is that the verses contain the relevant conditions and don't qualify as contradictions. Again, we'll come to these in due course.
- embryology/creation - again, all the verses do hang together - man is created from water, from clay, from a clot etc - all refer to the same process, but different aspects. Creation initially from mineral elements and water, then the embryological development in the womb. In my view no contradictions - but we'll see from the Quranic quotes. I am interested in the specific point about Quranic description of the embryo being at odds with science - I'll look into this when we get here.]
Cheers,
Shafique arniegang i thought Darwin had the creation aspect spot on in that mankind decended from the Neandethals/apes, ??? shafique Arnie, Evolution - where life forms started from less complex forms and evolved into more complex species is actually in line with what the Quran teaches. However, Islam teaches that the original creation of life was under the command of God - he kicked the whole thing off and created the conditions for life and its evolution - ultimately going back to the creation of life from 'clay' (i.e. minerals) and water. Cheers, Shafique

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arniegang ah got you, agreed Shaf jabbajabba Can someone explain how man is created from Clay? shafique When you look at the chemical composition of man, we are mostly water and a limited number of elements. Many scientists believe that life itself started from a 'primordial soup' - a mixture of water and minerals, and I would interpret the word 'clay' to be equivalent to this (clay is water and earth, after all). Therefore, man being created from clay could be both a reference to the initial creation of Life, or to the chemical composition of man. This is my interpretation - from a scientific point of view. 'Clay' - or more specifically the Arabic word used in the verses - may also have other connotations. cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman Alochol: Why forbid alcohol while praying when it is forbidden at all times? Specifying that drinking isnot allowed when praying very strongly implies that using alcohol when not praying is allowed. Not allowing alcohol while driving doesn´t forbid drinking alcohol at all times, does it? OK, we cannot understand afterlife, but saying wine is present in heaven sounds strange to me while it is so strongly forbidden (in later verses) here. But OK, I will take your word we cannot understand it... Creation: Sometimes earth is created in 6 days and at other time 8 days in the Quran. If this is something we cannot understand, OK... Even the Quran itself says that some verses are ´better´ than others: Surah 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? So, the revelation is time bound? Obviously, there are cases that Allah is substituting his own words with something better. Why not revele the best straight away??? Some scientific questions: 71:15-16 God created the seven stories heavens and made the moon as a source of light in these heavens The moon is the source of light? 88: 20 The earth has been flattened. And there are dozen more verses indicating very strongly that the earth is flat. 23:14 blessed Allah the best of all creators. How many creators are there? 86:7 says human sperms originate from between the back and the ribs hmmm... spoonman Hi Shafique, I've heard from some that Quran is not for proving scientific facts, but it's symbolic and represents Islam philosophy and some theology. The interpretation of Quran may vary hugely from old Iranian Sufism and mysticisms to Saudi Salafism. I kinda prefer the sufist views. OT, Flying Dutchman, do you mean the ghost ship or that lovely tobacco? shafique
The verse still applies - do not approach prayer whilst not in control of one's senses. A later verse (in terms of when it was revealed) banned alcohol and when Muslims heard this revelation, they stopped drinking and threw away their liquor.
History teaches us that no one complained that Islam was ambiguous about the use of alcohol - it is forbidden. The fact that verses relating to prayer were revealed before the verse about alcohol being banned does not change things. Requiring sobriety does not (at least in my mind) equate to allowing drunkeness.
As for wine in heaven, the Quran says it is not alcohol, but a drink that does not cause inebriation - I'll get the quote for you. This qualification in the Quran itself should remove any confusion over whether alcohol is allowed.
I will quote the relevant passages when I can look them up.

Could you give me the verses please and I'll respond. I'll also look this up myself.

Yes, previous revelations are timebound. Quranic revelations on the other hand are not - so says the Quran itself.
Why not reveal the best straight away? Because man has evolved socially and materially. When mankind was primarily nomadic, the more 'advanced' laws of social interactions (such as possessions, inheritance etc) would not have been relevant. Also, if there was not a way of recording and faithfully transmitting the message, the revealed law would not be transmitted efficiently - and therefore was geographically bound.
However, this is not a contradiction - am I missing some point here?

I did a quick Google and at
the translation of verses 14 to 20 is:
While He has made you in diverse stages.
Do you not see that Allah has made seven heavens one upon another?
And He illuminated therein the moon and has made the sun as a lamp.
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth like vegetation.
Then He will cause you to return there to and will bring you forth for the next time.
And Allah has made the earth for you as a bed spreading.
That you may walk through its wide ways.
'illuminating the moon' and 'sun as a lamp' seem to be in accordance with my understanding of science. (I'm not sure of which translation this is, so have given the web address). Can look into this more if you want.
Note v14 implies evolution (at least that is my take).

Again, same source as above v17 to 21:
Do they not look at the camel, how created?
And at the heaven, how it has been raised high?
And at the mountains, how they have been set up?
And at the earth, how it has been spread out?
Admonish you then; you are but an admonisher.

I don't think this needs any comment - earth is being used in contrast to mountains - hardly implying that the whole of the globe (planet Earth) is flat. Do you agree there is no contradiction here?

Only one creator of the universe or life, but everyone/thing that makes something is a creator of that thing. I see no contradiction in the verse which states God is the best creator.

v5 to 7
Then let man consider, from what he is created.
Created from a gushing water.
Which comes out from between the loins and the ribs.
I've given an explanation of this verse in a previous post here - pointing out that 'back' isn't in the translations but that 'loins' is. Most of the seminal fluid does emanate from within the body and not the testes - but that said, the testes is also part of the loins.
cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer The amazing quality of parables which is how most of the mythological scriptures are written, you can take it the way you want. This creation thing would've still made sense if we were really made up of from gushing water. scot1870 As above, contradictions or not, that Islam and other religions are based on "the word of God as copied by someone else" means there are zero real facts involved. shafique
At least Islam is unique in having a scripture that claims to be the direct revelation of words spoken by God, and that these words will not be altered.
All other scriptures have been subject to change due to errors in transmission/copying, and none contain the claim to be the literal word of God that will not be changed.
Cheers,
Shafique
rudeboy
scot mate u wanna tell me how humans were made? u want to tell me how the animals were made? u want to tell me how the earth and the other planets in the universe in the bloody galaxy, the sun and the moon came into the existance???
how about u explaning to me how the blood flows through our body, how when we eat something it gets diguested by our stomaches, how our eyes can see as far as we can. Y are we all different like different cookies :D some white, some black, some brown. What about the fact that we all look different and have different characteristics. How did this all happen?? you want to tell me?? Flying Dutchman Yeah, the verse still applies. But the way I see this, is that first alcohol was only forbidden during prayers and obviously allowed outside that and only later completely forbidden. This is a contradiction no? Later interpretations ended this (completely banning alcohol), although still some Muslims are not convinced all alcohol is forbidden, only spirits. A matter of interpretation and translation I guess. 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ? 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS… 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and … 4+2+2=8 No its not a contradiction, just something I was wondering about. Wow, I have got another translation here, specifying the moon as the source of light, will check this one out... I mean flat in the sense of not round. shafique
27.88 is about mountains today - the other verses about the destruction of mountains in the latter days are in the future tense - as you can see from my post yesterday where I quoted a number of them.
It says 'and you see the mountains, which you think to be firmly fixed, when they are are floating..'
To be honest, this verse and it's meaning were only brought to my attention yesterday (although I had read about it before in a book, I had forgotten the details - and only remembered that the book showed the Quran was in accordance with Geology).
So, I agree that the reply from the Geologist about mountains not dampening earthquakes contradicts the Quranic claim.
This verse does show that the Quran says mountains aren't actually fixed despite seeming to be so (and arguably for practical purposes, on a human scale they are fixed).
Given that the science/theory of plate tectonics is less than 100 years old, I can only conclude that at the turn of the 20th century I would have had to conclude that the Quran is scientifically incorrect to have asserted that the mountains are moving!
Early commentators found ways of interpreting the verse - but it caused problems for them (from what I read).
I am at a loss to come up with a good idea about why an Arabian claimant to prophethood 1600 years ago would make a claim that mountains are moving and not fixed, when this scientific fact would not manifest itself for 1500 years.
Perhaps the link between earthquakes and mountains is yet to be brought to the attention of the geologist you spoke to :)
In summary - the Quran's claims of mountains dampening earthqakes is not supported by a qualified Geologist, but his reply confirms another verse about mountains moving despite appearing firm.
Neither of these issues are contradictions, but descriptions of nature - and are not really relevant to the religion of Islam (i.e. aren't related to instructions on how to live and worship).
I thank you for bringing this up, for I have learnt something and will continue to ask about the lack of confirmation that mountains dampen earthquakes. Up to now I had not found a claim of the Quran that was not backed up by science - and fair's fair, you have shown me one. shafique
Respect on asking a Geologist and getting the response.
I totally agree that the Quran would be wrong to say that the mountains prevent all earthquakes.
I would also agree 100% that the Quran would be wrong if it said that mountains did not move ever (however slowly) and that they were permanent fixtures on earth.
However, neither of these would be classed as a contradiction or have any bearing on the religion of Islam.
I personally would also argue that the Quran does not make the claims of no earthquakes or that mountains are permanent (but they do look pretty unmoveable to me - and one is being very pedantic to say they are actually moving! Strictly speaking, glass is not a solid but a fluid and is flowing with gravity - but on a very, very slow scale)
That said, the main point for me is that this is not a contradiction, and nothing really to do with religion. [Edit - however, I also believe that the Quran does not contain claims which are unscientific, other than verses which are clearly metaphorical or poetic. Verses which address aspects of nature, I believe, should be in accordance with scientific observation - so, whilst not a contradiction, I have looked into this and have posted below]
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
that is simply part of your faith - but considered no fact.
have you ever heard of el hayat channel and hala sarhan's shows featuring muslim clerics trying to de-bunk some claims that the qura'an's full of contradictions?
quality viewing - highly recommended. sparked massive controversy, a public backlash, and a huge campaign to discredit her, her show, even personal attacks and death threats.
religion's a necessity of society my friend, you'll never grow spiritually if you blindly follow what you got raised on, you have your own brain, question life, experience life, think and grow spiritually through your thoughts.
most muslims, christians and jews all never grow outside of the box they grew up in, believing and taking in everythin their parents believed in... just purely out of faith - power to them, but thats as equal as someone telling you to jump off a cliff and you just doing it. ebonics &feature=related &feature=related &feature=related the man that caused all this: &feature=related take close attention to the cleric's reply when questioned... shafique
Alcohol was not forbidden just for prayers - the verse is quite clear, what was forbidden was to go to prayers when not in control of one's senses. This verse is still applicable - and therefore hasn't been abrogated. One can be under the influence of other drugs other than alcohol, for example if one is in hospital - then this verse is still applicable today.
I agree, IF the verse had said 'you can drink alcohol, but make sure you are sober when you pray' then the verse forbidding alcohol would be contradictory (or an abrogation). But this is not the case.
Hence, no contradiction, because (as you say) the verse still applies.

As you say, it is not a contradiction - but it is an interesting aspect of the Quran. I'll have to dig out the Quranic references, but elsewhere the Quran clarifies that a day for God is not the same as 24 hours on earth (one rotation of the earth). 'Yaum' = 'day' is also used for a 'period' or 'aeon' or 'epoch' or even 'stages'. This is the same usage as in the OT, for example. Remind me if I forget, but I'll start a thread on the Quranic descriptions of creation when I get the refs.

About the moon - let me know if you need any more clarification. The advantage of the Quran is that we don't have to rely on translations and can go to the actual original arabic words, and consult dictionaries or native speakers for the meanings.
As for the earth being 'flat' - the context of the verse which talks about mountains etc does not lead me to the conclusion that the Quran is saying the earth is not a globe. As I stated before, it is clear to me that it is just a reference to the 'non-mountainous' regions of our land masses.
Other verses about the moon and sun (following their appointed orbits) point to the earth being a globe - and that certainly was the view of Islamic astronomers and navigators a long time before Copernicus was being told off by the church (but that is another discussion) :)
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
No, sorry, I maintain that my last statement is fact. Happy to be corrected if you can show me another religious scripture that claims to be the final testament and claims to be the the literal word of God that won't be changed. I'm happy to change my mind if the evidence is presented though - perhaps I've overlooked such a scripture?

No, I haven't heard. Is it in English?
I'll check out the links to You Tube when I'm at home and have the time.

Agree with you 100% - well said.
I'm the first to decry 'blind faith'.
cheers,
Shafique ebonics
no you're completely right, no other scripture claims so, or is said to be that.. but what is your proof that god spoke those words - it is only a matter of muslim faith, there's no concrete proof, and it could be anyone's words. its a matter of either you chosing to believe, blindly, which is the cornerstone of all muslims.... or not.
i chose the latter because frankly, i dont see god saying in his words some of the things said in the qur'an...
a perfect example, whats in the youtube above... thats 1 example out of possibly 100's that i can go through and list, but i wont open that can of worms now or here for that matter. shafique
Yes, I agree with you. To believe the claims of the Quran that it is the word of God is a matter of choice/faith.

And as the Quran says 'La iqra fi deen' 'there is no compulsion in matters of faith/religion' - I am happy to fight for your right to believe that the Quran is not God's word.

Interesting - I will have to watch and see.
My personal conviction is that I don't have enough faith to be an atheist - to believe in the infinitesimally small probability that we have been created by chance is a leap of faith too far for me. Believing in an intelligent being behind creation leads me to the logical (for me, at least) that He will also communicate with His creations and will give guidance.
Searching for this Guidance leads me to the fact that there are religions claiming to be from God. Examining those differing sets of beliefs leads me to the one that is universal and does not offend my logic (I refuse to believe that God is illogical, or that the answer to a theological question is 'you must have faith').
I fully support other's rights to believe in illogicalities - or that what I find illogical is perfectly logical to them.
So, if you don't believe in a God - then I admire the amount of your faith.
As to specific parts of the Quran that you think did not come from God - I'd be happy to give you my view on them, as I do not think anything in the Quran does offend logic (or is even contradictory to other verses).
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics i believe in god - i think the god i believe in would be profoundly different to most though.. i dont believe in religion, or religion as we know it... its complicated :) i maintain that faith is in one's self, i dont need a congregation of people, or an establishment, or rules for that matter to tell me how to lead my life. i dont need anyone telling me what to do and what not to do, or how to do it, they're personal choices... which takes me back to the first point, religion is merely a necessity of society. which god would tell you not to eat pig, to stop what you're doing and pray 5 times a day, god's not needy for your prayers... u can pray and think of god silently in your thoughts through your every day actions... just simple things like that make all the difference, rather than what you'd call a duty to pray - thats organised bigotry in my opinion. but of course i never force my opinions on anyone, and i respect everyone that is slightly spiritual, regardless of race or religion.... shafique
A caring God who knows what is best for us - that is what I believe. Praying formally 5 times a day is the minimum - it is food for the soul.
Anyway- glad to hear that you do believe in God.
I can also understand your view that religion is not necessary and that we can all make the spiritual choices for ourselves. I don't agree with it as a practical concept, but you are free to choose this belief.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics this is where we agree to disagree... but i will challenge how eating pig isnt good for us? i will challenge how marrying 4 women is considered ok? million other things when it comes to islam, from the way they chose to spread it in the middle east, to the way they treat other religions today, to the way they chose to include religion with the rule of their nations... its odd though that there's not much i can challenge in christianity, or judaism (except the pork thing) and i definatly can never fault true buddhists - pound for pound, they're far more spiritually connected with life and their spirits than any other religion.. now back to the pork, if god made the animal, it was made for our consumption... there's no reason why its out of bounds or forbidden. i had a muslim friend that did everything, sex before marriage with his jewish girlfriend (jews and muslims can fall in love - they're a rather odd success story), drinks himself stupid, did every drug under the sun at some stage - but - would NEVER touch pork and it was a source of HUGE arguments between us, i dont understand, what did the poor pig do to deserve this?? dare i say you never lived if you never had fresh spanish bacon and fried eggs on the coast of ibiza after a big night out on the island... as for the prayer thing, most of my muslim friends consider it an inconvienience, they openly say that, yet still do it... do they really think god doesnt know what is in their heart when they pray? im sure its better to think of him whilst doing your work - passivly - rather than stopping what you're doing with a frown to do what seems to be a forced practice... i do like the idea of waking up early to pray though... shafique
On this point, God does not give detailed reasons. In the Quran it does say that pigs are unclean, but does not say this is the reason for pork to be banned.

Where women outnumber men, for example after a war, polygamy is a better solution for society than the alternative. That is my opinion - and we do have examples of societal effects of such instances in the 20th century which we can look at and argue over.
I will join you in condemning muslims who are mis-using Islam, but my contention is that they are doing wrongs in spite of Islam, not because of it.

Ok - I presume you haven't read the Bible :)

Interesting - how do you define a 'true Buddhist'? I actually believe in the original teachings of Gautama Buddha - but I disagree, say, with the current teachings of Tibetan Monks - such as the Dalai Lama. Some of his monks worshipped a deity that was aggressive, and there are instances of monks killing other monks over theology.

That's an interesting theory. You would therefore have no problem in eating rats, cats, dogs or carrion etc.
Some people think its ok to eat other humans, others see it as a sign of respect to eat the deceased relatives (with the women eating the brains). Do you think religions are wrong to say God has forbidden cannibalism?

Muslims are human. There were hypocrites among the first Muslims - so I am not surprised at this statement - but not sure what you are saying.. it just indicates that aversion to eating pork is something that is hard to overcome. I know Jews who don't normally eat pork, but will eat spare ribs (because spare ribs from other animals don't taste the same!)

You're the one that wants to kill and eat the poor things! :)

Yes, you can dare say it. Dare I say you have not experienced true peace until you have reached a state where your soul is pleased with God and God is pleased with you?

Empty prayer is just exercise. The Quran tells us to remember God when lying, sleeping, walking etc - so exactly what you're proposing.
I'll turn it round, what is wrong with taking out time 5 times a day to meditate and commune with one's creator?

I'm not sure it's better to not pray 5 times a day - but i can only speak from my personal experience.

Cool! Good to end on a point we agree on.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics shafique, im going to admit here, i dont usually meet bright minded muslims in my travels, but you're alright in my books.. as i said im not one to force my opinions on anyone, and you seem to do the same in a very respectful manner, and that i salute whole heartedly. if only all muslims took a page out of your book. i will get back and take phrase by phrase and reply to you when im a little more sober ;) its thursday night, and im drinking my sorrows away for my fiance is on another continent :( but i have read the bible, start to finish, i am christian by label... but as i already mentioned, my mind has discovered many revelations since - not necessarily naturally induced.... but i am blessed for what i have been shown. valkyrie Do Muslims believe that God is the speaker in every passage of the Koran? shafique
Yes. Every word is the verbatim revelation from God.
This is explicit in the Quran - and actually is a fulfilment of a prophecy in the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 18.18 says:
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their bretheren; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Muslims believe that Muhammad fulfils this prophecy. Christians argue that Muhammad whilst being descended from Abraham (and therefore part of the brethren) is not eligible as he isn't an Israelite.
Anyway, the short answer to your question is 'yes'.
(this is also a unique feature of the Quran)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
why? since when is any animal "clean"? so are you telling me it doesnt say pork is banned?

how is polygamy ok in any situation? i cease to understand this - and what is the situation when its vice versa? im sorry thats probably the most flawed hypocritical thing you could possibly justify that with...
ok so here in the UAE - males GRIEVLY outnumber females, according to your logic, its ok for women to marry several men because it is the best solution for society.... if the answer to that is no, thats hypocricy of the highest degree... unless of course, islam openly admits that males and females are not equal (which it does) - to that i will leave you to comment, as i have nothing to say, it says it all.

read it many times over, please, raise any question you wish.

the buddhists i met would scold me for swatting a fly... let alone kill someone, you need to remember, some things are personal choices, but essentially what you outline there, are fudamentally against everything they believe in.
thats equal to me bringing out the never-ending list of terrorist acts that muslims seem to carry out all around the world... then turn around and say we're a religion of peace and forgiveness - like they forgot how they opened all of north africa with the edge of their sword, with very little peace and very little forgiveness... and if your history book tells you otherwise, you're reading the wrong ones.

im happy to try anything once, i ate horse, gazelle, camel, frogs, snails.. some people eat cats and dogs, some eat rats in asia... everyone eats what they please - i dont see the problem in that, or your point with the first statement for that matter..
cannibalism is a different kettle of fish.

nothing compares to pork :)

see above - plus there are squillions of them and they're farmed regularly - i refuse to have shark fin soup or any whale products.. i do have a heart.

as i said im quite sure that the god i think of, the god i have experienced, and the god that i believe in, is fundamentally very different to yours and mosts.. people fear god.. i dont see any reason why anyone would "FEAR" god, my god is a god of love, forgiveness, and is a model for everything good in life - hence god will always be pleased with me, i have never done anything greavily terrible to have god frown down upon me for any reason..
god forgives sinners to killers and everything in between...

with all due respect, this basically could be, anyone and everyone... it specifically says from their bretheren, is specifically says words in his mouth - jesus talked as he and god is one and the same - a huge argument when it comes to any muslim admitting that.
but the same way you fundamentally believe on blind faith that the kuran is god's own word - and i dont (that verse never said anything about a book, but mouth - i dont see muhammad fullfilling that in any way)
i also believe that jesus is God, and you dont
and therefore that statement above, points to jesus, and not muhammad - to me.... valkyrie
What about passages where, presumably, Muhammad or the angel Gabriel are the narrators?
For example, surah 17.001:
Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). ebonics am i the only person that thinks that the kur'an in english makes as much sense as an ESL student that cant make it past his first unit... shafique
Pork is banned, but the reason isn't given. By contrast, alcohol and gambling are banned and a reason is given (that there is some good in both, but the bad outweighs the good).
The Quran describes the pig as unclean. What part of the word 'unclean' do you wish me to elaborate on or are you disputing applies to pigs?

Polygamy as described in the Quran is ok when women outnumber men to a large degree - as the case in Europe after the second world war, to quote a recent example.
In most European countries today men have multiple partners and this is not frowned upon, as long as they don't marry more than one at a time. Islam says that you can't have multiple partners, except when you publically marry a second wife and treat both equally.
It is unjust, in my opinion, to deny women in these circumstances the rights or opportunity to marry. You would have them live a life of spinsterhood or single parenthood (after committing adultery or fornication).

Males and females are biologically different. Men and women have different social responsibilities which relate to these biological differences. Islam does not ignore these differences, but does go out of its way to explicitly address women and give them equality in all spiritual affairs and also for the first time in religious history give them rights of divorce, property ownership etc.
Islam does not permit women to have multiple husbands - and this difference comes down to biological as well as sociological reasons.
You are free to object to Islam's philosophy and present an alternative, I am happy to explore that alternative and examine whether it better provides for human and societal needs.

Ok - two questions:
1. do you agree with the Christian teachings that all other religions are the work of the devil and not from the one true God?
2. Do you agree that if Hitler found salvation just before he died, he goes to heaven? What about a rapist, paedophile and murderer - if he repents just before being executed, does he go to Heaven? Christianity teaches that for both the answer is 'yes' whilst Mahatma Ghandi goes to hell. Do you agree with this teaching?

The Christians I meet will say Jesus taught to turn the other cheek. George W Bush is a born-again Christian.
I believe the violent Tibetan monks and George W all think they are following the teachings of their religion.

There was a suicide bombing in Sri Lanka this month, there were killings at a university in the US this week, there are killings in Burma, Tibet, Chechnya etc etc - But I take your point, the media highlights 'Islamic terrorism' and we lap it up. :)
As for North Africa - are you including Ethiopia (Abysinnia) in that, or are your history books glossing over this country? :)
Anyway - you raised this point as an aside, I'll treat it as such and perhaps as a new topic for the future (suffice to say, history shows Islam (the religion) was not spread by the sword)
And you make a good point - I too would say 'true Muslims' are following Islam. For me true muslims follow the Quran - so the question about what is a true Buddhist should mean - which particular teachings/books do 'true Buddhists' follow?

So you agree that God can legitimately outlaw some foods - human flesh for one. So we are just differing on why God should outlaw some food you find tasty. :)

Fine - enjoy your pork. I'm a little confused that you cite intensive farming of an animal as a reason to enjoy pork and don't eat whale meat which is organic and free range. Hmm.
Why do you have an issue with Jews and Muslims following their religious books and not eating pork?

My God is most forgiving, gracious and merciful. He is Rahman - i.e. the provider of all the necessary conditions for life, giving without being asked for, the Gracious; He is Raheem - the one who rewards one's for actions, listens to supplications, the Merciful. My God is above all just.

Agreed.

Ah - but 18.20 etc shows it can't be everyone. It has to be a prophet that claims to be receiving revelation from God, makes prophecies in God's name and is not murdered/killed - as this is the fate of false prophets according to the Bible.
Jesus did not say what he was saying was God's words, and he made a distinction between himself and God (the father). See Mark 10:18 (Why callest me good, there is none good but God).
Also, Jesus prophecised that there was a message to come after him that will be delivered by a 'comforter' who would only say what God has commanded him.

If you call weighing up the facts and continually questioning 'blind faith', then perhaps you are right.
I say for a fact that this is the claim of the Quran, and as such is the only religious text that claims to be the literal word of God.

That is true - but I also believe this is exactly what Jesus taught in the Bible. I have searched in vain for any mention of Jesus saying that anyone should pray to him - if he is not to be prayed to, how can he have thought he was god?

Sure, Christians say this as well. It is a matter of faith for them.
However it does not explain the fact that Jesus himself said that the Bible does not contain the final religion and that there are more instructions to come:
John 16:
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
I choose the more logical, literal reading of these verses that there is a new message that will be delivered by the new prophet, the same prophet prophecised in Deut 18.18. Jesus is saying that it is not him, and that a new message will come.
At the very least, the message Jesus preached is not complete and he said the Spirit of Truth will come.
Muhammad, pbuh, was known amongst his people as 'Al Amin' - the Truthful - but more importantly, he fulfilled the prophecies of Deut 18.
So, my reading of the bible is that Muhammad, pbuh, more fulfils the prophecies than Jesus (for example, Deut 18 also says the prophet will be like Moses - Moses brought a book, fought wars etc - all things that Muhammad, pbuh, fulfilled but did not apply to Jesus).
My contention is that Christian interpretation that the spirit of truth is the 'Holy Ghost' does not stand up to logic - but this is the least of the problems of Christianity vis-a-vis logic (eg was Jesus praying to himself, when Jesus was 'dead' was God still alive - how many gods are there, and was he ever dead? )
Good luck and congratulations on getting to the end of this marathon post!!
:)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics ok i really cannot be bothered quoting
im just going to write what i think in dot forms
- how is the pig any less clean than any other animal, a cow, a horse, a dog...
- males and females are biologically different granted, but you are talking as if it would be best for the society to have multiple partners - that was your argument... if that is the case, then its one for all - biological difference shouldnt be a hurdle.
side note, how many wives did muhammad have? why were muslims only allowed 4?
- do not single out george bush and say he's a born again christian, as i previously said, he can practice whatver he wants to practice, but at the end of the day its personal choice, its free will, its what makes us humans... cognition and free will.
i dont single out osama bin laden, its his free will to be who he is, a lot of my muslim friends are wonderful people that are far more peaceful than most americans ---- it is free will, within one's self.
- islam did spread by the sword, in most if not all of north africa, egypt went down in battles, the copts of egypt were forced to PAY "gizyah" to stick to their faith, hence now egypt's only left with a 3% coptic population, continuously opressed by muslim groups - that are only kept at bay with threats from the UN and washington straight to the president to intervene if things get out of hand.
egypt is one of the biggest melting pots of religous controversy you'll ever encounter, because they deny it and pretend everything is all good, and everyone's happy...... its quality quality viewing and reading.
- regarding christians denouncing other religions, quote me scriptures please.
- like you said "allah" is forgiving to anyone and everyone, anyone that repents, and truely means it - shall be forgiven... thats what god is about, forgiveness..

you're right, claims... i can claim i am the catalyst of the universe, i hold the truth about parallel universes, spiritual freedom, transcendance, the most religious of entheogenic states.... and i'd be just as credible. it is ink to paper, no words from a divine being.
the kura'an denies that jesus is alive, it says something alone the lines of, he didn't transcend into the heavens, but they imagined that it happened...... where they all the jews congregating in a mass dose of LSD at the time?? how exactly did they "imagine" that it happened??
i think ill leave it here, we'll go around in circles otherwise... over and out. shafique
Yes, this verse is God speaking. '...We did bless..' indicates it is not the Prophet, pbuh, or Gabriel narrating.
The angel Gabriel was the means of transmission of the verses, but the words are God's.
There are other narrative type verses where God recounts the prayers he taught Abraham and others - but in all cases the words are from God.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
I hear that the Bible translated into Yoruba is a blast as well! :)
Cheers
Shafique shafique
In many ways. Are you saying pigs are as clean?

In certain limited circumstances polygamy is better than the alternative.

Because God said so. The prophet had more than 4 wives at some points in his life - but for most of his life he only had one wife, his first (and they married when he was 25 and she was 40).

No doubt - but you said 'true Buddhists' which sparked off this particular line of discussion.

Bush has killed more than Osama - so I'm happy to compare and contrast. :)

Jizya was a tax that also exempted the non-Muslims from military duty, and the Muslims paid a higher tax - Zakaat and other taxes.
Fine, we are reading different history books if you insist Islam was spread by the sword.
Do you also disagree it is the fastest growing religion in the US and UK today?

And this has what to do with the integrity of the Quran?

All the Christians I've met say that Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam are the works of the devil as they are not the works of God.
Salvation is only through the belief in Christ - all others are not from God. Hence my second question about Hitler going to heaven but Ghandi going to hell - do you agree with this philosophy of Christianity (that you are automatically saved when you believe in Jesus' sacrifice)?
I can look up the quotations if you wish - but this is a central teaching of Christianity (or do you disagree?)

Agreed.

Yes, that is why all claims should be tested - tested firstly against logic and then against personal experience.
At least we agree that the claim is made, and that the Quran is unique in this claim.
Anyway - thank you.
In this interesting discussion, not once have we come across a contradiction in the Quran - you've questioned some of the teachings and philosophy, but not pointed to any contradictions (at least not yet).
Perhaps you have some contradictions you'd like to present for discussion?

The Quran says that Jesus appeared to die. I believe that God heard Jesus' pleas and saved him - it was a matter of miraculous survival and not miraculous ressurection.
I believe in logic.
And again, no contradiction in the Quran on this point.
I see you glossed over the point that Jesus prophecised a new prophet after him and that his message wasn't the final one. Easy to do when it is a long post :)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics as i said im leaving it where i left it i will correct you that the jizya was what you paid to keep your religion other than islam... not to exempt you from military duty... thats complete false information. shafique
Jizya is a tax that was payable by non-Muslims, Muslims paid different taxes. Non-muslims were exempt from military duty, Muslims weren't.
So, yes Jizya is what you paid if you weren't a Muslim - but it is not as if Muslims did not pay other taxes - they did and they had more responsibilities. That is why nonMuslims lived at peace under Muslim rule in Jerusalem, and the Jews called the Muslim rule of Spain their 'Golden Age'.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics and do you know, what happened if you cannot pay the jizya? shafique
They sent the tax man/bailiff round?
What happened to Muslims who didn't pay their tax?
(Also, please specify the date/region you are referring to and do me the favour and compare what the method of tax collection and punishment for avoidance was in say England at the same time).
Cheers,
Shafique valkyrie
Well, not sure about the UK, but in the US, Islam is only the 9th fastest growing religion.
Here are the growth rates according to :
1. Deist - 71.1% per year
2. Sikhism - 33.8% per year
3. New Age - 24.0% per year
4. Hindusim - 23.7% per year
5. Baha't - 20.0 % per year
6. Buddhism - 17.0% per year
7. Native American Religion - 11.9% per year
8. Non-Religious / Secular - 11.0% per year
9. Islam - 10.9% per year.
In 2002, Islam fell from 4th to 5th Place among American religions when it was surpassed by Buddhism. In 2005 it fell to 6th Place when it was surpassed by Hinduism.

I know you believe the Muslim myth that Islam spread peacefully, but why armies would have been needed is a bit problematic to explain. ebonics
ill rephrase the question, in the period directly after islam rose to power, what happened to none muslims that were un-able to pay the jizya? shafique
That's an oxymoron - if one hasn't got any means then the jizya is zero. If you mean what happened to those who refused to pay the jizya - again, you'll have to specify in which country/geographical area and what period.
For example in England, refusing to pay the local king/baron's taxes was considered treason and the people were killed.
Also in Europe, Jews were subject to special taxes - most notoriously in some periods they had gold from their teeth extracted!
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics its not an oxymoron... you're avoiding the question ill break it down in simple terms for you north africa, either jew, aethiest, or christian muslim armies move in, with their armies, swords, leaving a huge trail of blood shed... you're given 2 choices, convert or pay the jizya if you dont take neither, what happened? i already know the answer, the answer is you die... now keep going around in circles all you wish. shafique
The options actually were:
Convert and become Muslim and be subject to taxes Muslims pay, or stay non-Muslim and pay the jizya. Paying the jizya exempted you from military duty.
You seem to ignore the fact that becoming a Muslim required converts to pay taxes and also obligated them to do more civically than non-muslims.
If people chose to not pay taxes in Europe, they were killed. If people chose to not pay taxes in some Muslim jurisdictions, they were killed.
Do you object to taxes?
(And since you are replying to posts - are you going to answer the question about whether you agree with Christianity's view about all non-Christians going to hell?)
I take it you also do not have any Quranic contradictions for our consideration.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics in regards to teh question you keep asking me, i asked you for scriptures. Flying Dutchman
OK, but why then does the Quran say in some instances that earth was created in 6 periods and in another in 8 periods?

Could you specify where the Quran says the earth is a globe? Numerous texts in the Quran indicate the earth is flat shafique
If you can get the references for 8 periods me, I'll look them up and comment. This could be a proper contradiction for me to look into as I've found the verses in relation to 6 periods (I think you quoted some references before, but if you could indulge me and give them to me again - thanks).
A ref for 6 periods is here:
Al-A`raf Chapter 7 : Verse 54
Surely, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then He settled Himself firmly on the Throne. He makes the night cover the day, which it pursues swiftly, And He created the sun and the moon and the stars - all made subservient by His command. Verily, His is the creation and the command. Blessed is Allah, Lord of the worlds.
another here:

Yunus Chapter 10 : Verse 3
Verily, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, then He settled HimSELF firmly on the Throne; He governs everything. There is no intercessors with Him save after His permission. This is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Will you not, then, mind?
Similarly 11.7 talks about 6 periods.


As I said before, I do not think the verses saying the earth is spread out indicates that the earth is completely flat. The following verse shows this clearly:

Al-Ra`d Chapter 13 : Verse 3
And He it is Who spread out the earth and made therein mountains and rivers, and of fruits of every kind He made therein two sexes. He causes the night to cover the day. Therein, verily, are Signs for a people who reflect.
Note that 'spreading out the earth' and 'creating mountains, rivers..' is quite clear and does not say or imply that the earth is flat.
The verses about the orbits of sun and moon are:
Al-Anbiya' Chapter 21 : Verse 33
And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each gliding along smoothly in its orbit.
YaSin Chapter 36 : Verse 40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day. All of them float smoothly in an orbit.
Whilst these don't explicitly say the earth is a globe, the do say that the sun and moon glides in orbits relative to the earth - which is in accordance with the earth being a globe.
Anyway, the main point is that the 13.3 shows clearly that the Quran does not say the earth is completely flat - far from it, the mountains and valleys are cited as examples of God's creation.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
You want me to quote from scripture that Christians believe only those who believe in Christ's sacrifice go to heaven? Really?
Ok, not a problem (sorry, I'm just a little surprised that I'd be asked to look up the reference - I've always been told this is the main teaching of Christianity).
Let me know if you disagree with the following which was written by a Christian:

Is Jesus the only way to Heaven?
Satan, the ruler of the world, plants these thoughts in our heads. He, and anyone who follows his ways, is an enemy to God (1Pet 5:8).
Satan always disguises himself as good (2 Corinthians 11:14),
but he has control over all the minds that do not belong to God. "Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).
It is a lie to believe that God doesn't care about small sins, and that hell is reserved for "bad people." All sin separates us from God, even a “little white lie”. Everyone has sinned, and no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own (Romans 3:23).
Getting into heaven is not based on whether our good outweighs our bad; we will all lose out if that is the case. "And if they are saved by God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's wonderful kindness would not be what it really is - free and undeserved" (Romans 11:6).
We can do nothing good to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5).
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).
Jesus was born so that He could teach us the way and die for our sins so that we would not have to. Three days after His death, He rose from the grave (Romans 4:25), proving Himself victorious over death. He bridged the gap between God and man so that we may have a personal relationship with Him if we would only believe.
"And this is the way to have eternal life - to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth" (John 17:3).
Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do.
"We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this way, no matter who we are or what we have done" (Romans 3:22).
The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Jesus is the only way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that only Jesus Christ could provide. No other “religious founder” was God become man (John 1:1,14) – the only way an infinite debt could be paid. Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

Ok - so do you agree that all non-Christians are going to Hell?
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman


Also int he Quran the earth in compared to a carpet...I will look up the exact reference(s) tomorrow. shafique
Thanks for re-posting.
41.10 refers to 4 days and these include the 2 days of 41.9. In the first two 'days' the earth was created, but in four 'days' the mountains etc were created. The extra two days refer to the two periods: 1. create mountains - i.e. geological formations on the earth, and 2. creation of vegetation/water ways etc.
41.10 is clearly talking about the earth '..placed therein' and the 2 days of 41.9 are part of the 4 days of 41.10. Creation of earth took 2 days - ball of gas stage, then solidification of the crust as second stage - then geological formations, then vegetation and water cycle.
Thus it is 4+2 = 6 - consistent with the other verses quoted.
For your reference about the word 'day' not meaning 24 hours:
look at verses 22.47 and 70.4.

Ok - but again even 41.10 quoted above talks about the creation of mountains, so as far as I can tell the Quran is pretty clear that there are mountains on earth! :)
In the meantime a couple of verses I found about the spreading of the earth:
Qaf Chapter 50 : Verse 7
And the earth - We have spread it out, and placed therein firm mountains; and We have made to grow therein every kind of beautiful species,
Al-Dhariyat Chapter 51 : Verse 48
And the earth We have spread out, and how excellently do We spread it out!
50.7 uses identical words to 51.48, and in the former, mountains are mentioned as part of the earth - so clearly, the spreading out of the earth is not saying that it is flat but that it is an extended land mass which contains mountains, valleys etc.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
you see shafique, the credibility of what a christian wrote, to me, is as credible as the qur'an... his argument is all fine and dandy, but it is a cynical close minded view that has about 0 credibility, because who is he to judge..
in regards to the scripture, i believe, jesus is life and is in everything, jesus is god, not a figure or a human, and god is all around us in everything he's ever created..
you can find salvation through faith... as such, no i dont believe you need to be christian to go to heaven - anyone that would tell you otherwise is a complete bigot and is the reason i dont do "religion" anymore..
shafique, are you familiar with terrence mckenna? he would explain life far better than i ever could, or any archiac book of scriptures could... look him up. a dead man now, but he is a true visionary that got things right - very few people do. shafique
Actually, my intention in posting what the Christian wrote was to give you the Biblical references you requested and also the context. The scripture clearly states that Satan is the ruler of the world, the only way to salvation is Christ and therefore the non-Christians are all worshipping Satan and going to Hell.
Do you assign 0 credibility to the Biblical references given?
This is what all the Christians I have met have confirmed the Bible teaches.
If you have a different interpretation of Christianity - fine. But I would submit that this different interpretation is not in accordance with the verses of the Bible you requested I provide.

Ok - but what does the Bible say?

The question though is whether Christians believe the ONLY way to salvation is through Christ.

No, I'm not familiar with Terrence - is he a relation of Paul?
Does he think that Islam/Hindusim etc is a religion revealed by God, or a religion revealed by Satan?
Anyway, it seems that (reading between the lines) you do not agree with the Bible when it says the only way to Heaven is to believe in Jesus, and you do not believe that all other religions are Satan's handiwork. Is that fair?
If so, then you have more in common with me than with Christians on this point.
Cheers,
Shafique valkyrie In sura 27.91, the verse says: "I have been commanded to serve the Lord of this city."
The word 'say' is lacking in the original Arabic (according to what I'm reading). Wouldn't the speaker then, clearly be Muhammad?

In that verse, God is praising himself. Does God praise himself? In another verse (75.1) God makes an oath to himself. Again, why would God do that?
In 19.64-65, it says: We come not down save by commandment of thy Lord. Unto Him belongeth all that is before us and all that is behind us and all that is between those two, and thy Lord was never forgetful
Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! Therefor, worship thou Him and be thou steadfast in His service. Knowest thou one that can be named along with Him?
That would indicate to me, that the angels in this verse are speaking. I know one of the English translations again has 'say,' but that is added to the beginning of the sentence. If you can read Arabic, maybe you can confirm that. shafique Ch 19: 64. (The angels say:) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord: to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between: and thy Lord never doth forget,- 65. "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship: knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?" 66. Man says: "What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?" 67. But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing? 68. So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Evil Ones (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell; '(The angels say)' isn't in the arabic - but it is understood for the following reasons: 1. Ch 19 opens with 'in the name of Allah..' 2. 19.66 records the reply to the statement - which is clearly meant to be illustrative (not all men deny life after death). 3. v67 clearly is stating that God is speaking. We all agree that v64 refer to words spoken by angels - but these are narrated by God as per v67. God is just quoting what the angels say and what 'man' replies. 27.91 also omits the 'say' - see Pikthall's translation: 027.091 (Say): I (Muhammad) am commanded only to serve the Lord of this land which He hath hallowed, and unto Whom all things belong. And I am commanded to be of those who surrender (unto Him), 027.092 And to recite the Qur'an. And whoso goeth right, goeth right only for (the good of) his own soul; and as for him who goeth astray - (Unto him) say: Lo! I am only a warner. 027.093 And say: Praise be to Allah Who will show you His portents so that ye shall know them. And thy Lord is not unaware of what ye (mortals) do. v92 and v93 (the very next verses) all contain the instruction 'say' - showing it is God speaking/narrating/instructing. And does God praise himself or make an oath with himself? No, he does not. He does however narrate the Quran. Cheers, Shafique ebonics shafique , get someone to translate this for you - this is straight out of a muslim channel go to the link within you tube - and if you're confident enough in your faith, you can talk direct to the person pictured through skype and argue with him all you want... and i assure you - he will come up on top. he has been the cause of conversion for thousands of muslim now, and there's millions of dollars diety on his head (its the only way muslims could deal with him, is kill him) - a matter which also forced him to exile and find shelter in europe... where he can continue to open dim minds.. he is also available on your tv, through a satellite dish... if you wish to learn of his teachings.. thats it from me, before a price gets put on my head as well from the folk of your faith - IP addresses are easily tracable these days. shafique ebionics - I'll see if I can get someone to translate for me (however we can't watch You Tube at work, where all my arabic speaking friends are).
Could you ask the man to post on here in English and show us why Christianity is more logical than Islam etc? Does he believe all non-Christians are going to hell?
Why don't you pick one of his points that he makes and discuss with me here? Start a new thread and let us see if his arguments make sense.
[Edit - one of the you-tube links was dubbed into English - the one where he describes Trinity. His argument was that Christians believe in one God, just like the Muslims. He was quoting from the Quran and was (unconvincingly) arguing that Christians also believe in one God not three. He didn't answer the point about whether Jesus was god or not, and if he was how that would make God 'one' when there was 'god the son' , 'god the father' etc.
Given that he was quoting from the Quran to make his case, I'm surprised you say that he has converted Muslims to Christianity... but I'm always up for a challenge!]
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics as i mentioned, he would only talk through his site - there's millions of dollars for his blood - several "fatwa's" are out by muslim cleriks that have told muslims killing him is considered halal... he wouldnt risk being traced on any other website his link is stated in the description of hte video, help yourself. and as such, of course islam is a religion of peace... spare me! shafique
So, does he believe all non-Christians are going to hell?
And are you saying you can't give us one of his points for us to discuss?
[I don't speak Arabic - does he speak/write in English?]
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics he's fluent in english, if you do speak to him directly.. shafique
Cool - I'll look up the you tube link tonight and will e-mail him.
The first question I'll ask is :
"Do you believe all non-Christians are going to hell as per the Bible?"
I'll start a thread if/when he answers.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics before you leap into such a question, i suggest you challenge him that the qura'an contains no contradictions - and is written by "allah" - with no human intervention.. shafique ebonics - I went to You Tube, but could not see the e-mail. Could you post it here or PM me with it. Cheers, Shafique ebonics its in the video Flying Dutchman
Where does it specify the 4 days include the previous mentioned two days?

Common, I said it before. I mean flat in the sense of not being a globe!
Here are some others:
In line with creation and the word day:
In Sura 22:47 and 32:5 Allah's day is equal to 1,000 human years.
In Sura 70:4, Allah's day is equal to 50,000 human years.
What was created first?:
Sura 2:29 says the earth was created first and then heaven.
Sura 49:27-30 says the heaven was created first and then the earth was created.
How many angels appeared to Mary?:
In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus
In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.
When in history did the jews believe Ezra is the son of God?
Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God shafique
The context does - they are both talking about the earth.

Oh - sorry. Why would you conclude that land mass spread out would mean 'flat earth' and not 'globe'? Aren't the land masses spread out over the surface of the earth?
Apologies - I didn't see any link between the word 'spread' and 'flat earth' so that didn't come to my mind at all. I thought you were saying that the earth isn't flat and even, but contains mountains (hence why all my replies have repeatedly said that the Quran is clear there are mountains etc).
I think it is a stretch to interpret the verses in question as 'the world is flat'- that certainly is not what all the Muslim scientists did, and I don't think there has ever been a 'fatwa' judgement saying that the world is flat.
(Also, strictly speaking this would not be a contradiction in the Quran - just a scientific falsehood :) )

A simple explanation is that time is relative and not fixed. I think these are metaphorical and contextual - a 'day' for God is a period and say a geological stage/period may be longer than another. However, let me look at what the commentators say.

Thanks - this is one I'll have to look into and post tonight.

This is an easy one - only one Angel appeared in the form of a man, but many angels were present. The verses are quite clear on this.

Will look into this as well - wasn't Ezra the prophet that re-wrote the OT? (However, is this a contradiction - or a different view of history? The Quran also has different views of OT events - such as Lot's wife staying behind rather than turning into a pillar of salt)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics now this Most Definatly belongs here wow, a sura, came to omar, not muhammad - very selective (got contradiction?) im going to admit now, i never even heard of this before - this is very profound........ i find it so amusing how god intervened instantly to save muhammad - how many wives did he have again? you didnt answer me the first time. ebonics maybe this explains why muhammad was sex obsessed? &NR=1 shafique ebonics - do you have shares in youtube? ebonics maybe i own youtube why dont you stop asking me questions, and answer the questions at hand dear sir? shafique
:lol: Flying Dutchman Ebonics, lighten up a bit. Anyways this thread is discussing possible contradictions/inconsistencies in the Quran. What you are doing appears to me as Islam bashing. Show some respect. ebonics flying dutchman, respect where respect is due the scriptures quoted, neither i, or the man quoting them made them up - this is out of their faith straight - what was called the inexplicable, the cause that made thousands convert.. im not asking for anyone to convert, no sweat off my brow.. but if someone is going to preach that the qur'an contains no contradictions, well please explain the things that are outlined in the religion that claims so.. i dont do religion - religion has caused far too much conflict over the years between poeple and caused too much bloodshed... muslim, christian and jew all caused their own casualties - i want nothing to do with all this... i believe in love and peace of fellow humans, regardless of race and colour... still awaiting explainations.. thank you. shafique
As stated in the previous thread - please pick one apparent contradiction and I'll answer it here.
I don't pretend to know all the answers, but to my knowledge there are no contradictions in the Quran. I have two apparent contradictions to check out tonight - raised by FD in the post above, so I'll work on those until we hear which particular part of the Quran you are so sure is a contradiction.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics well in the case where the "wahy" landed on omar, not muhammad, because muhammad was in his house getting attacked by his women for his womanising.. i thought the wahy only landed on muhammad? or is there now another prophet in omar? so can the wahy land on anyone now? whats stopping me from recieving the next sura? how is that not a contradiction? shafique
This is not in the Quran, so is not a contradiction.
Next issue.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics shafique have you even watched the above? it is in english im going to watch it one more time, maybe i was still asleep in the morning and i misunderstood edit: after watching it one more time - you most definatly have not watched it to give the above comment... watch the video where i say the wahy landed on omar, it has everythin to do with the quran shafique
Sorry, I have not looked any links other than the original ones you posted.
I want to restrict this thread to contradictions within the Quran. If you wish to start a new thread on the compilation/authorship of the Quran - happy to do so. However, I will just end up quoting standard texts to you about how the verses were revealed and memorised, as well as written down. The primary means of preservation was memorisation.
The myths about 'satanic verses' 'hidden/forgotten verses' etc are just baseless fairy tales - to put it politely :)
If one of the links is about Quranic verses, I'm happy to view it tonight -just let me know which one.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics dude give me a break.. watch the 2nd last link first before replying, you're insulting me otherwise. it has nothing to do with satan or satanic verses.. watch then comment. im assuming you didnt watch any of the others in the other thread either, i found english ones especially for you.... ebonics PS - if the moderator thinks im too much, please say so. i will cease completely. Flying Dutchman Ebonics, why don´t do us a favor and quote the verses here that contain a contradiction according to you. Then it´s much easier to follow for everybody and saves a lot of time... shafique
Phew - you had me worried there :)
70.4 reads
"The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years"
22.47
And they demand of thee to hasten on the punishment, but Allah will never break His promise. And verily, a day with thy Lord is as a thousand years of your reckoning.
32.5
He will plan (His) Ordinance from the heaven unto the earth, then will it go up to Him in a day the duration of which is a thousand years according as you reckon.
For me 70.4 is a specific span of time for a specific event. 22.47 and 32.5 talk in more general terms of what a day for God is compared to man. The commentaries say even this 1000 years is a general term.
As 70.4 does not say 'one day for God is like a 50,000 years' but talks about a period for the ascension of angels and Spirits, I do not think the verses are contradictory.

2.29
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He turned towards the heavens, and He perfected them as seven heavens; and He has perfect knowledge of all things.
49.27? Ch 49 only has 19 verses - so this must be a typo. Anyway, I presume that there is another set of verses which say heavens were created first.
For me 2.29 does not say that Heaven was created second - but that God turned his attention to it and perfected it after creating the earth.
41.10 talks about the creation of the earth, then
41.11 reads:
Then He turned to the heaven and while it was (something like) smoke, and said to it and to the earth; 'Come ye both of you (in obediance), willingly or unwillingly.' They said, 'We come willingly'.
Now, the earth and universe can't speak, so the commentary for this verse is
"..signifies that everything in the universe is subject to certain laws which it obeys and according to which it works. It has no discretion. It is man alone who has been endowed with volition or discretion.."
I think the descriptions are metaphorical and also a bit vague - so I can't see a clear contradiction here. Heaven is not said to have been created first or second - but perfected second. This could mean that the creation of the earth was God's primary motive - and this is backed up by Hadith which say that the whole universe was created by God for the sake of humans in general.
Perhaps when we get the proper reference to the verses saying Heaven was created first, I can comment further.

9.30
And the Jews say, Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say 'the Messiah is the son of Allah', that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. Allah's curse be on them! How they are turned away.
Commentary:
Uzair or Ezra lived in the fifth century BC. He was a descendant of Seraiah, the high priest, and, being himself a member of the priestly order, was known as Ezra, the Priest. He was one of the most important personages of his day and exercised a far-reaching influence on the development of Judaism. He was especially honoured among the Prophets of Israel. The Jews of Medina and a Jewish sect in Hadramaut believed him to be the son of God. The Rabbis associate his name with several important institutions. Renan has remarked in the preface of his 'History of the People of Israel' that the definite constitution of Judaism may be dated only from the time of Ezra. In Rabbinical literature he was considered worthy of being the vehicle of the Law, had it not been already given through Moses. He worked with Nehemiah and died at the age of 120 in Babylonia (Jew. Encl and Enc. Bib)
Also, a number of articles on the subject are on the web, this one has quotes from Orientalists and Ency. Judaica:
So, in answer to your questions the Jews in Arabia in the period around the revelation of the Quran had this belief.
Also, this makes sense. The history (and Quran) records that among the 'hypocrites' were many Jews. A group of them joined Islam in the morning, then left in the evening hoping to cause doubt and take people away from Islam (the Quran talks about this specific sequence of events).
So at the time the Jews were there and were critiquing the religion and the Quran. Therefore, if this verse was not true (that Jews called Ezra son of God) - they would have pointed this out at the time and made a big fuss of this (as a proof that God couldn't be revealing something that is so verifiably wrong).
However, this is not one of the objections raised by the Jews of the time.
I suspect that this verse has only been questioned by Christian opponents of Islam - and they raise it as an example of a contradiction/error.
I therefore do not think this is a contradiction (but I have to admit I only looked into this tonight - so if there is more info out there, I'm happy to review).
I'm sorry ebonics, I haven't got time to go to your you-tube link tonight - but if you can type out the verses in question (just the references will do - and why they are contradictions), we can examine those here.
Flying Dutchman - what is your view of the claims of contradictions that I think I've shown aren't contradictions after all. Do you think (like I do) that they were put together by those wishing to discredit the Quran (as opposed to scholars)?
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman Okay, here is a small recap on my side. Some explanations I found very creative. I didn´t want to get in a yes - no - yes - no kind of discussion. Any objective person reading the verses about alcohol finds it contradictory. I did raise my eyebrows that you agreed that seamen eminates from between the loins and ribs. If somebody read the verses about creation, that person would say earth was created in 8 days. The same for the order of creation. That said, I agree with you that there are cases that what seems at first as a contradiction, doesn´t have to be a contradiction with some creativity. Sure, I agree with you that possible contradictions are used to discredit the Quran. Let me finish my posting in the thread that I couldn´t come up with clear and starightforward contradictions in the Quran. shafique
Let me thank you for a civilised and enlightening discussion. I appreciate that we did not descend into a yes-no debate. I agree people can judge the explanations I and reach their conclusions about contradictions/abrogations.
For me, it was a learning experience as well for some of the quotes.
However, I am also satisfied to note that none of the 'questionable' verses were dealing with the core religious teachings of Islam - but were of issues of scientific reliability or sequence of events or descriptions of nature.
It reinforces my view that the Quran is clear about how humans who choose Islam for their way of life need to interact with God and with other creations - which is what religion is. Whether we believe that the message is from God, or whether we choose to follow the teachings of the Quran, is a personal choice.

:)
I resisted posting the composition of semen before - as I thought correcting the initial translation you had (which did not mention 'loin' but said 'backbone', I think) resolved the situation.
Given the following:
Composition of human semen
The components of semen come from two sources: sperm, and "seminal plasma". Seminal plasma, in turn, is produced by contributions from the seminal vesicle, prostate, and bulbourethral glands.
Sperm is from testicles (in loins), the seminal plasma is from glands within the body. So, to my mind, 'between the loins and ribs' is a pretty good description!
(sorry, couldn't resist a final word.. but I'll let your final words speak for themselves):

Cheers,
Shafique valkyrie
Wouldn't this verse imply that the earth is flat?
In this verse, mountains are created to prevent the earth from shaking.


Again, mountains function as stakes to hold the ground together. shafique
Yes - but the opening words are clear 'one day' God will remove the mountains. Future tense. (But doesn't say the earth is flat and not a globe)

Yes. I take this to mean that if there weren't mountains the movements of tectonic plates would cause more earth quakes than at present - i.e. in the (distant) past there were many more earth quakes than now. This is in line with my superficial knowledge of geology.

See previous explanation.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
lucky i took a day off then, you maybe in luck - if i find the right resources i need to quote everything in english. ebonics i will make a seperate thread to this, if shafique wants me to... but i will discuss it here first.
Sura 25, verse 24
[54] It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things).
before i get into this... i thought man was made of dust?
now lets go to sahih el kortoby - as authenticated by Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance.
this is the link for the tafseer..
&taf=KORTOBY&nType=1&nSora=25&nAya=54
now the link basically outlines a small progression of events.
its widely known and accepted, that if a muslim has a child outside of marriage, it is not considered his child, but the child of adultry.
this child would have no rights under islamic shari'a, no ties whatsoever, no inheritance, no ties to the biological dad, because the qur'an says, its not his dad - it is the son of adultry.
al kortoby then goes to explain:
the marriage and relationship from that marriage is the only way that relationships get established between all humans.
he says, ibn el araby said, the nasab, is the mix between the male and female water legally under islamic law - it is not approved otherwise.
if it is in adultry - it would be just a creation - no relation... if you were born in adultry - the man that concieved you is not your dad.
ibn el araby continues to say..................
because it is out of a legal relationship, it doesnt go under the word of god, "it is forbidden for you, your mothers and your daughters" - meaning it doesnt fall under that clause of the qur'an.....
so if you have a daughter from a woman that is not your wife, that daughter is ok for you to have a relationship with - because she is not your daughter....
he says that word for word........ just so there is no confusion
his closing statement...
"fa la sehran, shar3an" - there is no relationship under shari3ya
"fa la yoharam zena be bent om, wala om bent" - so it is ok for you to sleep with the daughter of that mother, and her mother..
i am baffled, bamboozled, and everything in between... shafique
Yes, I can see that.
Where in the Quran does it say Muslim men can sleep with their illegitimate daughters? Do you really think Muslims go round, commit adultery so they can father daughters out of wedlock and then have relations with them?
As for the verses about creation - you are right, man is created from minerals and water (clay) that is the origins of all life. The Quran also refers to the creation of an embryo from a fertilised egg, and also makes reference to the development of the foetus.
The Quran also talks about what happens after death.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics you're speaking the truth but im not making this up either... for the 5th time now. Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance this is the primary source of all islamic teachings of anyone, world wide.. so while your logic does make sense - why is this quoted on their website? according to the primary source of islamic teachings - it is ok.... you can do that, and you will not be committing sin. shafique
I think you need to check your facts.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics in the same vein of scandalous occurings.
again, i could make a thread dedicated to this, but i will respect airing out dirty laundry and keep it confined here - it will go past with less attention that way.
this was the incident that got me into all this in the first place... it was possibly one of the highlights of my life in regards to one of the funniest, blatently retarded things i could have ever came across...
lets rewind back time,
may 28 2007
from wikinews - not to be confused with wikipedia, this is a news archive.

something that caused the azhar to suspend the cleric in question...
more news reports of the incident
excerpt from that if you are too lazy to read the whole thing - you tend to get lazier and lazier on me shafique, its starting to really get to me.




other reports of the story
now the question is - if it was indeed a valid and authentic hadith.......... islam teaches you to mirror muhammad's life and live by his teachings, how is this then, an exception?
if you've got any doubt that this is authentic
again
here is the link for you to verify yourself
(in arabic)
&Rec=3378 ebonics
are you being serious here???
where did islam come from?
where did the qur'an originate?
who were the first proper arabic speakers?
this is a government, 100% authentic, primary source of informationfor all muslims and none muslims world wide....
i dont need to check my facts shafique - this is as rock solid as it comes.
till then think all you want. ebonics i would also like to highlight
[color=red]Al-Azhar University has a fatwa that officially sanctioned martyrdom operation with one condition only: martyrdom operations are only allowed in Israel. The university has had this ruling for a long time and has stood by it.
[/color]
i dont know how credible this is... this is off wikinews, but some light shed on that would be nice. shafique ebonics, take a chill pill man. ebonics hahahaha chill as chill can be brother.. you got some homework to do shafique..... if this news went past your radar un-detected.. it blew up other people's life... this caused thousands to question their faith - and the authenticity of their religion... isnt that the topic at hand? anyway, i am most definatly- done here, till you do your homework and find out what exactly did muhammad mean, when he told his wife to breast feed someone else - so he can co-exist with her in private. ebonics PS - see what happens when you ignore my youtubes shafique? i tried to conceal all this and let youtube do the talking.. PPS - through more research i just learnt that wahabi's actually practice breastfeeding to adults :shock: :shock: :shock: shafique ebonics - congratulations, for once I am speechless. ebonics im not sure if you're being sarcastic or not shafique.. if you're not - i hope this experience will enable you to think, rather than get told. if you are please tell me so i can list you another 50 odd examples i looked up :lol: shafique ebonics - I think I understand your frustrations. I saw a documentary recently about the Copt ghettos in Cairo. It showed how the Coptic community made their living predominantly by collecting, sorting and recycling the rubbish. It showed how by keeping pigs the communities became solely Christian neighbourhoods. It was reminiscent of the similar communities in the main Indian cities. As historically the numbers of Copts have decreased with conversions to Islam over the centuries, those sticking with the faith of their forefathers have become more and more introspective and developed the hatred for muslims and Islam that has manifested in your posts. It must be even more galling for Copts when young people like you turn their backs on religion altogether. Cheers, Shafique ebonics im quoting this, just so its documented - in case you edit it later

LOL!!!!!
so is religion directly proportional to wealth these days? how very genius of you. yes you hit that nail on the head and understood my frustrations.
some people in egypt are what you call "under the poverty line" they're not in poverty, they're even under that..
that line knows no religion shafique there is a small amount of christians in egypt, and there are far more muslims under that line, way under that line..... must be another 1 sided account, like all your 1 sided accounts..
because muslims in parts of india, indonesia, pakistan and afghanistan are doing a lot better..... and the thousands of people in ghaza that attacked egyptian borders seeking refuge were doing much better, have you not seen news footage? thankfully the government got something right for once and turned them back where they belong.
i hate to say this - that last post made me completely re-evaluate your intelligence, and your logic... you made yourself no justice!
you must be really clutching on straws now arniegang Ebonics thanks for your pm. Please confine the discussion in this thead to its title. Other posters have been very patient and polite to you, please accept this. You are more than welcome to open a new thread if you like, if you want me to split this thread please let me know and i will do this for you to save you reposting. Ebonics you are on very unsound ground when you start preching about the Saudi's and their interpretation of Islam. It is generally accept from all faiths including well learned Islamists and muslims in general that the Saudi's are a joke in how they have their own intepretation of Islam. Their treatment and civil rights towards woman is a disgrace to Islam, and as i have learned on here, is in the main, a total contadiction to how the average muslim leads his life. Yes we all know Mecca is in Saudi but that does not mean Islam belongs to the Saudis or are superior to other Muslims from other countries. valkyrie
From my understanding, mountains are actually created from earthquakes. Mountainous regions are the spots where the most active earthquakes occur.


Here is another possible contradiction. These verses would indicate to me, that mountains (and the earth's crust) do not move at all. They are fixed into the earth, and as my previous verse shows, the Koran even describes mountains as pegs. In reality, mountains move along with the earths crust. So, according to geology, mountains are not fixed and immovable, but in actuality they can move up to the rate of 10 cm per year. ebonics
its not their interpretation - the quotes quoted are from muslim sahih's, published books distributed world wide to all muslims, compiled on that saudi government website.. the website is only a mean of transport - but has nothing to do with the author. rudeboy ebonics are u a jew?? u r arent ya?? i wanna know whats islam done to u? was ur family member a victim of the sept 11? did ur bro or son or i dont know someone died in afghanistan or iraq? what do you want from the muslim community? an appology? would that really make u happy?? islam, christianity and judasim and some more religions are roughly the same. so y dont u just go on living ur life worshipping whoever u like and leave the muslims as it is. whats with u and islam? are u scared of islam? I admit in the muslim community there are some sick minded ppl. but u also have to admit there are some sick minded ppl in the Christianity, Judaism and Hindu socitey. No one is perfect. and dont go judging the rest of the muslim community just because of what some Egyptian mulla says. ebonics im a jew when it comes to the music i listen to - isreali musicians are the worlds best in my opinion :) arniegang
Of course its their own interpretation. Saudi's enforcement of Islam differs to everyone elses. :roll: ebonics
arniegang
that same sahih is universal, regardless where it is published and purchased.... that same sahih is the same in every muslim country and library.....
the website is merely another mode of transport rather than a written published book..
i invite you to go to your local book shop and purchase that same sahih, from any bookshop in the UAE - it will mirror what i pasted, word for word.
so no - its not their interpretation..
even, if it was, the imam from al azhar admitted that the hadith is in fact true and valid... al azhar is the mecca of islamic studies, world wide... thus making that, case closed. rudeboy
hmmm just as i expected. no wonder that "ppl" like u were able to find splits within Islam. and hey i dont wanna argue with u cos we all know that the jews happen to be the most "PERFECT RACE" on planet earth. I also do they know they are clever and cunning ppl. and history has shown this. I also do know that the world feels sorry for the Jews because of Hitler and the SS. Its a shame that those who were targetted once are now targetting others ;). Nucleus What is wrong in this article?

Doesn't mountain roots slow down continental movement? Here I found something
shafique Nucleus, The quotes do corroborate the Quranic verses about mountains being like pegs and also reducing earthquakes. I would be interested to hear if the points made are valid according to the Geologist quoted before. Anyway, as a non-geologist, my knowledge has increased because of this discussion. I guess we can now say that the claim of earthquake reduction is one that can be challenged but not dismissed by science? Well, I guess we move on to the next 'contradiction'? Cheers, Shafique valkyrie Hi, shafique. I have sent another e-mail to an earth science professor who specializes on earthquakes. He will probably respond in the coming days (monday).
The reason I asked you if v27:88 was dealing with the end times was because the context of the verse appears to be clearly speaking about judgment day. The immediate verses before and after this verse are prophecies of the end of the world:
And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded - then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens, and those who are on earth, except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness. Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do. If any do good, good will (accrue) to them therefrom; and they will be secure from terror that Day .
It reads to me that mountains are currently fixed (as what several Koranic verses say), but at the end of days, Allah will move the mountains as clouds like the other different verses in the Koran that talk about mountains moving, vanishing, collapsing, scattering and being crushed. shafique
Excellent - as I said, I am not well read when it comes to geology.

Yes, I can see the context and agree that they can be viewed about talking about the latter days when you look at the context (and I can imagine that is how scholars as old interpreted them).
The other verses which clearly talk about the disintegration of mountains say that this will happen in the latter days.
However, v88 in Arabic does not say that the mountains will 'disapear' like clouds, but what has been translated as 'pass away like clouds pass away' is what was translated as 'moving' or 'floating' like clouds 'move'/'float'.
The clincher for me is that this verse is in the present tense - it instructs the reader to look at mountains (now) and says that even though they are fixed, they are (present tense) floating like clouds. However, the translation you have quoted gives the impression that the 'passing like clouds' is in the future tense.
Thus we need to establish whether the Arabic words referring to clouds are in the present or future tense. I'll consult with some Arabic speaking guys and get back to you.
I think its worth repeating my stance on the Quran and science (as this thread was initially set up to discuss alleged contradictions, not descriptions of nature). I do believe that the Quran's descriptions are in accordance with the laws of the universe/physics/nature etc. This is because if God is the author the Quran, he won't reveal something that is wrong.
However, it was written in the 6th century and explains concepts in terms that have meaning for man at every stage of scientific development since. The main message of the Quran is not as a scientific textbook explaining the universe. It does however ask readers to study nature (i.e. science) and discover the beauties and complexities of creation.
Therefore I view the examination and fitting of science to Quranic verses as a peripheral activity - and not a core measure of the truthfulness or otherwise of the message of Islam.
I personally haven't found a verse or claim of the Quran that asks me to put aside logic, but I like challenges and hence I continue to look and question.
So, let us keep these discussions in perspective - the main message of the Quran is that it is a pure revelation containing the pinnacle of religious evolutions - the final code by which man can attain the ultimate peace - being at one with Creation (nafse muttmainah - the soul at rest, where God is pleased with it and it is pleased with God).
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
I just confirmed with an Arabic speaker that v88 is in the present tense (actually he says is present continuous - so 'it is and has always been' is the meaning).
Whilst v87 is about the Day of Judgement, v86 is about the present time :
(I quote Pickthall's translation, just for a change):
027.086 Have they not seen how We have appointed the night that they may rest therein, and the day sight-giving ? Lo! therein verily are portents for a people who believe.
027.087 And (remind them of) the Day when the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and the earth will start in fear, save him whom Allah willeth. And all come unto Him, humbled.
027.088 And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.
027.089 Whoso bringeth a good deed will have better than its worth; and such are safe from fear that Day.
Note that he translates 88 more literally (though using 'hills' instead of 'mountain'.
But the point I was making is that 86 is about looking at signs today - 'night and day', v87 does talk about the future, but v88 is back to the present continuous tense.
As I read yesterday, v88 did cause some problems for scholars of old (who could not comprehend how mountains are floating/flying like clouds).
Cheers,
Shafique Nucleus
Mountains like pegs is clear analogy for mountains with their roots. It is interesting acutally, and I doubt it that it was possible to know 1600 years ago that mountains go deep down like pegs.
With second one 'reducing earthquakes' I see an issue of semantics. ebonics sorry to bring this one back up again,
further proof that breastfeeding hadith is no fable.

as seen in this link
&ln=eng&txt=breast%20feeding
my very limited brain, still cannot fathom how the prophet told his wife to breastfeed an adult so to make him and her related.... shafique ebonics - what part of the thread title is confusing you? Discussing hadith is not appropriate in this thread. I suggest you start a new thread and find someone who believes in this hadith to debate with you. Cheers, Shafique ebonics
i admire your un-founded selectiveness to this day on this matter. shafique
Thank you.
I am very selective when it comes to Hadith - as recommended by the compilers themselves. [Oh, and you have selected quite a mild hadith - there are many more sensational hadith in Bukhari, Muslim etc - but as I said, the compilation and authenticity of books of hadith is a totally different topic from this thread.]
How is the 'disection' of the Quran coming along?
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics you may say chapter 1 is complete...



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