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The Pope insults our Prophet PBUH


shafique A friend of mine has written to a number of newspapers in the UAE with the following: Dear Sir/Madam With reference to the comments made by the Pope in his recent speech about Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and Islamic teachings I would like to state the following. Given the current international climate and the very recent controversies, such comments only serve one purpose that is to add fuel to the fire. Pope's speeches are prepared in advance and are well thought out, so one cannot assume that the impact of such comments was not known to the Vatican In the current climate it was more than ever needed to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and take such steps and make such statements which create peace and harmony and not generate discord among the society and religions. This latest act will only serve to harden the views on both sides. What the Pope should have said is that there are some Muslim organisations who are spreading a message of hatred and that they should turn back to the fundamental message of Islam and the Practice of their Prophet. The effect of such a statement would have been miraculously different and it would have been appreciated by all Muslims. This is the time more than ever to show courtesy to each other. Islam has shown great respect to Jesus Christ and in fact to leaders of all religions. The name of Jesus Christ and Mary is mentioned more number of times in Quran than the name of Prophet Mohammad himself (PBUH) and always with respect. It is part of every Muslim's faith to believe in the truthfulness of all prophets of other religions. The question of Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) or Islam teaching its followers to spread its message with sword is so foreign to the teachings of Islam and against the facts and annals of history that one wonders how can anyone come to such a conclusion? There is not a single verse or a jot in Quran which teaches such a thing. On the contrary, Quran is replete with verses which indicate that there is no compulsion in matters of religion and its a matter of each person's free will to choose and decide. For example "Anyone who wishes may believe and anyone who wishes may disbelieve." (Holy Quran 18:30). One should not judge the message of Islam by the actions of those few who are fighting political wars but using religion to gain sympathy of masses. Just like teachings of Christianity and Jesus Christ should not be judged by actions of those Christians, for example, who carried out heinous acts during inquisition. The life of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is preserved like an open book. Even a cursory glance would show the fallacy of this view that he instructed his followers to spread the religion by sword. There is not a single instance in his life to this effect. How can wars fought in defence and survival be termed as spreading of religion by sword? Many a Christians and other scholars after studying history arrived at this view. For example Sir William Muir, the well known orientalist states in his famous book "Life of Mohomet" that from among the thousands of Muslims in the city of Madinah, not one had been made to accept Islam by Force. The fall of Mecca would have been an ideal occasion for converting the masses to Islam but highly respected British historian Stanley Lane Poole writes in introduction to Higgins' Apology for Mohammad "But what is this? Is there no blood in the streets? Where are the bodies of the thousands that have been butchered? Facts are hard things; and it is a fact that the day of Muhammad's greatest triumph over his enemies was also the day of his grandest victory over himself. He freely forgave the Kureysh all the years of sorrow and cruel scorn they had inflicted on him; he gave an amnesty to the whole population of Makkah. Four criminals whom justice condemned, made up Muhammad's proscription list; no house was robbed, no woman insulted. It was thus that Muhammad entered again his native city. Through all the annals of conquest, there is no triumphant entry like unto this one". I rest my case.
xibit
In his speech, the pope quoted 14th-century Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus who said: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
This is the second time something like this has happened before Ramadan. (Last year they published the cartoons)
I wonder why doesn't he mention the glorious 'crusade' in the name of the cross, or the spanish inquisition that tortured muslims until they converted to Christianity, or the millions of women the church killed claming them to be witches.
If not that, maybe he should give a lecture on how blacks, by the decree of God, were inferiors and designed to be the slave of the white man.
In the beginning it seems as if this irrational and brainless statement has been given by bush, but when it's coming from an educated man of religion, it's distressing.
The guy has no idea about what he's talking about and is adding fuel to the fire.I'm not saying no muslim has done anything bad, but to insult Prophet Muhammed PBUH is crossing the limits
And in the end what can we expect form an ex - nazi turned pope. fayz not justifying anything but he did issue an apology Concord Xibit, Ready to nominate you for Nobel prize, please send me the category you would like me to vote you in... arniegang
:lol: :lol: :lol: chevaliers-de-sion "And in the end what can we expect form an ex - nazi turned pope." That was not a very nice remark, the man is only human and a good Christian. shafique I've read the full speech of the pope, as issued by the vatican (link on BBC news website). It seems incredible that he chose this particular quote for the speech. It was the only quote in the speech and was extremely ill advised. The quote illustrates the bias of the Byzantine emperor and is just untrue (that the Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, taught that Islam should be spread by the sword and the only new things he taught were evil). I've also read the apology, and it's not a complete apology, nor does it really answer why he used the quote that he must have known would be inflamatory. I'm disapointed and dismayed that he is not following in the footsteps of his predecessor who acknowledged that we share the same God. (I personally wouldn't have brought up the fact that he was a nazi during the war as I do not think it has relevance to his utterances today.) Cheers, Shafique arniegang to err is human to forgive is divine PARANOID "HEY, THE LESSER GREATER SATAN QUOTED A BYZANTIUM EMPEROR!" "LETS KILL HIM! GOD BE PRAISED!!" "umm, guys you know, we have such a bad repuation for violence over silly things already, don't you think we should maybe..." "AND KILL HIM TOO! ARGH!!" this pope or that pope , all the same , may all homophobes rot in hell . and why exactly does it matter what people from a different religion than ours say about muhammed(pbuh) ?i really don't get it. Concord
And where did you get that he "was a Nazi". As you know at his age and time it was compulsory to join the Nazi youth, etc. So noble of you not to bring it up :roll:

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xibit
plz keep ur lame sarcasm to ur self and get to the point. xibit
ROME (Reuters) - Pope Benedict told Muslims on Saturday he was sorry they had found his speech on Islam offensive, expressing his respect for their faith and hoping they would understand the "true sense" of his words.
Can any one here may be concord please explain me the so called "true sense" in insulting the Prophet PBUH.
I wonder why the pope hasnt aplogised to Muslims in person surely, if he didn't mean it, he should.
why doesn’t he?
mel gibson made anti sematic remarks and he was sent to 6 months for alcohol rehab. even though after apologizing twice in person and in public.
pope makes anti muslim remarks and gets off the hook by issuing an apology by the vatican spokes man ..... i think not.
I usually choose to ignore the anti islam rant by the west but unfortunately when the Head of the Catholic Church says something it can not be overlooked. chevaliers-de-sion The Ishmaelite says the Pope is wrong. They deny Papal Infallibility. Their heresy is an insult to Catholics everywhere. :evil: Concord
I'm I missing something. :?: You just quoted Fayz who stated the pope apologized but in your post you ask why the pope doesn't :roll: I must admit my reading comprehension ain't the best but... shafique
xbit called the Pope a nazi - that is what I was referring to. For interests of clarity, the Pope has said that he joined the Hilter Youth organisation only when it became mandatory in 1941 when he was 14. Critics have pointed out that it actually became mandatory in 1936 and reinforced in 1939, and Hitler Youth membership took place from the age of 10.
As I said though, I don't think his membership of Hitler Youth has anything to do with the choice of quotation which besmirches the religion and the founder of the religion. If someone had done the research and did not want to perpetuate the fallacy of Islam being spread by the sword, then that person would not choose the quotation chosen. This is my opinion after having read the whole speech and considering the context of quotation.
The apology falls short of acknowledging the fallacies in the quotation.
Cheers,
Shafique Concord What I often find amuzing (well, always actually) is how people critize the media but use it as a platform for rants, etc. The media is only "baised" when it suits a particular purpose - I suppose. Bleakus why did he attack the prophet muhammad anyway? bear
Sorry, but as well as all you have mentioned, I think the Templars need be specifically noted as well in his next speech. A group of Knights commissioned by the Vatican that began the Vatican bank and played a major role in the crusades that were then labeled heretics when they realized foul and inhumane plans of the Holy See.
Excelent post. Lionheart THe Pope should concentrate on addressing child molestation..especially the molestation of little boys by priest whom the Pope has appointed instead of accussing our beloved prophet MOhammed(pbuh) whom he can never measure up to as spreading the Islam by the Sword..while hyprocritely forgetting how the Pope thousand years ago sanctioned bloodshed against MUslims and Jews in Jerusalam, the inquisition of Muslims and Jews again in Spain...The murder of Native Indians 40+ million who refused to convert Christainty in Southern America, Pope watched and blessed Hitlers extrimination of Jews 60 years ago...know the same Pope is accussing the prophet MOhammed(pbuh) of using violence to spread his message...The Pope is hyprocrite who needs to read the history of Christianty...especially Catholism before he opens his mouth against Gods last messenger.
sniper420 whatever Pope was ignorant and had right to preach......... why is there is unty in islamic world everytime some moron speaks up crap at the same time no unity to criticize shias and sunnis chopping each other? Lionheart
You are absolutely...It is disgraceful to see bunch of dump muslims in Pakistan, India and all places Iraq take to the street whenever a fool insultes the Prophet(pbuh), but never protest the killing of muslims in Darfur, Kashmire, Iraq and few months ago Lebanon/Palastine...These muslims disgrace the prophet(pbuh) more than the Kafirs who insulted the prophet(pbuh)...They remember that the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) faced more than insultes in his life time and he never acted and would have never condoned the way some of these muslims have acted. 175bpm
i dont know you.
And i dont really like you . :idea: 175bpm
well said sniper 8) Bleakus
because they are 2 different issues dude? the issue has been there for years, its pretty complex ;) sniper420
right they are 2 diff issue.......but it shows how fro petty stupid crap muslim world unites other crap those ppl slumber.......
well i know Pope is Islamophobe cos he dismissed bishop who is of the expert in islam. crticizing religion at a sensitive time is liek me going to funeral and while delivering eulogy i say:
Mark once said John was a "moron" "dishonest" and "retard".... i quote twice these are not my words but Mark's words.....
So what do u expect? John's loved ones will kiss me? or think I am quoting mark cos I want them to beleive Mark as right that John was retard?
Similarly Popew quoted like a complete moron from an emperor who was enemy to muslims that time...do u think Saddam will ever praise Bush? Do u think Saddam's words are gospel truth? sniper420
it's easy to say humanism will save the world when we know it doesnt exist and will not ......there shall always b something we will fight for unless some other species comes in and invades earth.....as log as there is 6 billion + human pop and human beings dominant species........there shall always b killin Chocoholic I dont' care if I get flamed for this, I'm going to say it anyway! It was not the Pope's opinion, he was quoting from another text, rightly or wrongly. However the reaction from the Islamic world is once angain nothing more than ridiculous, with threats to kill the Pope, down with the Vatican etc etc etc. Do you ever see Westerners or Christians reacting in such a way over fanatical Islamic 'clerics' calls for the killing and destruction of the western world - NO!!!! Get over it! bear
I do as a matter of fact. sniper420
ofcourse I see.........I see in church ............ppl calling muslims orges and we have to "wipe" em off! Sure they dont go burning effgies but I DO see in churches and synagogues calling Muzzies inferior names.........
Choco as usual u r biased in ur speech. sniper420
what's the use of quoting from 600 yr old fart? Didnt he have any otehr book to read like how muslims jews christians lived in Spain(andulasia) for centuries and prove harmony can exist? He is stupid and moron who lives in palacial buildings and eats good food wears gucci glasses....i mean wtf?
if u read Les miserables .i loved the bishope who is simple and giving all his money to poor and needy.
recently 2 churches in nablus have been firebomed......same crap again kanelli I find it a bit rich that the Pope would criticise Islam in relation to violence in light of the Christian church's history with violence. The Spanish Inquisition and Crusades are a huge black mark in their history... xibit
what the hell, didnt u read my post . i thought english was supposed to be ur language ??
and u call that a frekin apology please explain that what does the "true sense" in insulting the Prophet PBUH mean.
he should come on tv or in public and admit that he made a mistake and come up with reason that why he said such stuff.
Mel Gibson had an excuse he was drunk still he was made to suffer for his anti Jew views.
What excuse does the pope have , was he drunk too? or may be high on crack. xibit
Excellent stuff Shafique appreciate it. But I think people like concord who are supposed to read ur post. Can't understand English. xibit
dude this stuff is nothin we can rite a whole book on how the catholic faith is a sham..
oh wait a book has alread been writen.. MaaaD The unmistakable whiff of Christian triumphalism This was no casual slip. Beneath his scholarly rhetoric, the Pope's logic seemed to be that Islam is dangerous and godless Giles Fraser Saturday September 16, 2006 The Guardian John Paul II's pontificate was largely defined by his relationship with a global conflict between west and east. Last Tuesday evening, in a badly judged speech before a home crowd of Bavarian academics, Benedict XVI may well have set the parameters of his own period as Pope, pitching himself into a debate over Islam that has prompted outrage throughout the Muslim world. "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." These were not the Pope's words, but those of an obscure Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos, back in the 14th century. And yes, the Pope did make it clear he was offering a quotation. Even so, these words fell from the lips of the spiritual leader of a billion Christians without anything like enough qualification. There was no phrase distancing himself from the claim that Muhammad was responsible for evil. It's little surprise, therefore, that the remarks have roused anger and demands for a personal apology. Christopher Tyerman's latest book on the Crusades, God's War, argues persuasively that analogies between the Crusades and the present global conflict are often overdrawn and historically dubious. That may be so. But it's an argument that doesn't cut much ice with millions of Muslims. After all, it was one of Benedict's predecessors, Urban II, who first summoned a Christian jihad against Islam. And it's born-again Christians who have been at the forefront of support for the invasion of Iraq, the occupation of Palestinian lands by Israel, and the whole "reorganisation" of the Middle East - a catastrophe in which many thousands of Muslims have lost their lives. Any comments by a Christian leader that touch upon this wound are bound to be interpreted from every possible angle. The Pope must have known this. If millions of Muslims were offended by the scribblings of a few unknown Danish cartoonists, it's pretty obvious the enormous potential for harm that might flow from a few ill-judged comments by the vicar of Rome. Furthermore, the Pope has form on all of this. Just a few months before he was elected, he spoke out against Muslim Turkey joining the EU. Christian Europe must be defended, he argued. It didn't go down well at the time with Muslim leaders. But what makes his comments from Bavaria doubly insensitive is that Munich and its surrounding towns are home to thousands of Gastarbeiter, many from Turkey, who are often badly treated by local Germans and frequently subjected to racism. It won't be lost on them that Manuel II ran his Christian empire from what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul. And reference to that time, in circumstances such as these, has the unmistakable whiff of Christian triumphalism. For the most part, the Pope's address was a scholarly exercise that sought to challenge the idea that rationality is intrinsically and necessarily secular. We must "overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable", he insisted. Most Christians would agree. But even here there was a sharp criticism of Islam buried beneath the scholarly rhetoric. For the Pope argued that in Muslim teaching, because "God is absolutely transcendent", He is "not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality". In other words, there is no reasoning in or with Islam. Which, surely, is another way of the Pope saying how dangerous he thinks Islam is. This is why the Pope's remarks look rather more than just a slip or a casual mistake. The speech concludes with a further reference to the views of the Byzantine emperor: " 'Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God,' said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures." Blog sites have been buzzing with the thought that the Pope may have the president of Iran in mind when he speaks of Manuel's Persian interlocutor. But we don't need to speculate upon a contemporary casting for this speech to recognise its dangers. For in claiming that Islam may be beyond reason, and then to claim that to act without reason is to act contrary to the will of God, is pretty close to the assertion that this religion is godless. And that's not how different faiths ought to speak to each other - especially when we all have each other's blood on our hands. As it is written: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?" · Dr Giles Fraser is the vicar of Putney and a lecturer in philosophy at Wadham College, Oxford ajb
in light of earlier objections/criticisms in this post isnt it a bit insensitive to draw comparisons between the Pope and a hollywood actor? :P sniper420
there are books which say islam is a sham........so will u believe em? xibit
So if the Iranian President was to quote say....'Hitler''....and his views on Jews...would that be acceptable because it was just quoting somebody else? xibit
Dont we all just love those kind who come out of their holes and defend anyone who says anything against Islam. Thinking that they will be accepted by the white man some day. sniper420
I am while man and I dontlive in a hole .......my eel goes there sometimes though! :lol:
take it easy .....xbit Bleakus
whats wrong with the 70's? although i wasnt born at these times ;) kanelli
Well, I'll leave that for the other people reading this thread to decide. :lol: St.Lucifer Hey folks.. u know what. this is what religions bring us. Have faith in God dont die for religion. Y are people so blind.. to ask such stupid questions and make such stupid speaches. We all know that all the major religions today are just religions of hypocrisy... and please I urge everyone to break the cells that religious teachings have taught you, the way of living has taught you. and identify humanity as the superset. We are all human beings first, only then comes any other difference. "Religion is not in doctrines, in dogmas, nor in intellectual argumentation; it is being and becoming, it is realisation" "The mainspring of the strength of every race lies in its spirituality, and the death of that race begins the day that spirituality wanes and materialism gains ground." "Religion, as a science, as a study, is the greatest and healthiest exercise that the human mind can have. This pursuit of the Infinite, this struggle to grasp the Infinite, this effort to get beyond the limitations of the senses - out of matter, as it were - and to evolve the spiritual man-this striving day and night to make the Infinite one with our being-this struggle itself is the grandest and most glorious that man can make. " "All narrow, limited, fighting ideas of religion have to go. All sect ideas and tribal or national ideas of religion must be given up. Personal idea of God or the Impersonal, the Infinite, Moral Law, or the Ideal Man-these all have to come under the definition of religion. When religions have thus broadened, their power for GOOD will have increased a hundredfold" - Swami Vivekananda. xibit ^^ oooooo the flower power if u r still stuck in the 70's please move on its 2006 luci boy. Bleakus did anybody notice that everytime we go into a topic, religion is suddenly that subject ;) i know this thread is for religion but.... St.Lucifer very true bleakus.. thats the sad part.. people have become so blind coz of religion .. to such a level that even a discussion, a healthy discussion and debate is not possible in todays world... it ends in furious argument. as people who are blunt believers of what is written in the texts and who cant see beyond the written material believe that they are ready to wage a war if anyone even discusses and debates against their religion. I see more and more people turning into radical views. how sad.... The prophets( whom i personally see as men of noble thoughts,humble and un biased actions and immortal ideologies but mere mortal souls) would be ashamed to see the world today. The world of people who are worst than barbarians in the name of protecting the religions and protecting civilizations.. and raging to wage war on a spark. MaaaD
hahahahah kanelli The world would be a safer and more peaceful place without any religion at all. Atheism and Humanism are the way to go. :D sniper420
i dont think so........ world wars didnt have anything to do with religion. kanelli There have been many other conflicts in this world besides WW1 and WW2. sniper420
which proves World will NOT b better without religion man will ALWAYS have something to fightfor resources, ideas , politics and otehr crap kanelli Oh man, discussing with you is like banging my head against a wall. :lol: sniper420
say u lack logic.... St.Lucifer
I dont know.. what u mean by that statement.
so where are u stuck ...in between 570-632..??? to m y knowledge Teachings of religions are much older than 1970's. Gotta move on mate. I aint stuck in. Have the courage to think beyond and above whats just written. Application and interpretation of the knowledge makes one a genius or a moron...not the knowledge by itself. mraph33
While not all the belligerency has been religion based, historically more people have been killed because of religion than any other reason. In addition, most current intolerance is also due to religious beliefs.
The pope, with his statement, added fuel to the fire, he didn't light the spark. St.Lucifer
Culture, Race, Law, and religion have always been factors in causing wars. sniper420
correction belligerrency existed cos west need more resources for their economy and east as usual wants to unite under the banner of religion to prevent this mraph33
I was speaking historically, not specifically about what is happening now. You don't have to go far back - look at what happened in Yugoslavia, Somalia, Nigeria, India, Northern Ireland. All because of religion. Has nothing to do with east/west. St.Lucifer
Are u forgetting something Sniper..? St.Lucifer
I was only wondering abt the "Final Solution of the Jewish question" from World war.
and ok yes it is rational that there'll b killings and there will b jealousy but world is not all that bad a place. see here we are who are just normal human beings with no power to control. when we can think about the humanism and treating everyone eqaul and bring the faith in the world back , think about people in power doing the same.
Its just a question of, would people with power do it or people who have the great human vision get into power or the last option would it be the end of many civilizations.
I love this from Einstien when he was asked to out his thoughts on world war 3 's possibilities and what kinda wepons he thought would be used.. he said
I dont know what weapons would b used for world war 3, but i certainly know that in world war would be fought with sticks and stones . sniper420
i loe albert yes I heard about the quote infact it hangs in my room shafique Strewth! I just wish the Pope's script-writer could have chosen a more appropriate quote and not one that he does not agree with the content and which historians (and of course muslims) agree is incorrect. The tragedy is that this was all a predictable outcome. My view is that the Pope needs to just come out and stop all the bad vibes by saying: 1. He does not agree that everything the Prophet, pbuh, brought that was new was evil and inhuman 2. He does not agree that Islam was spread by the sword, or that the Quran teaches this. This will diffuse the situation. Currently we have an apology that stops short of clarifying whether the Pope agrees with the above. A couple of observations: 1. 'Muslims should read the full speech' - agree, but note that most people, Muslims and non-Muslims, won't - and will read the headlines. "Pope says 1 and 2 above" is what will be the reaction to the speech and non-Muslims may think there is a grain of truth, whilst Muslims know there isn't. Result - an apparent 'clash of civilisations'! 2. Religion has caused the most wars and death. I disagree - most wars are about territory and the resultant wealth that comes from control. Religion has been misused as a divisive badge, but it would be unfair to say that the majority of people killed in wars historically have been because of religion. But if we do keep score, historically the most aggressive and bloodthirsty 'religious' armies have been those under the command of Rome - the period of the Crusades and generally the Dark Ages were trully horrific in terms of Human Rights abuses in the name of religion. Cheers, Shafique sniper420
Ahem.....well Shaf I guess not all babarians were in west......many barbarians were in east too.......like mongolians and when islamic arnies invaded iran....ppl fled .... valkyrie
Excellent point^. Shafique, what happened to the Christian communities in North Africa and the Zoroastrian religion in Iran? shafique Guys, guys - I was pointing out what the score card would be if we tallied up the deaths caused by religious wars. The Crusades were a sustained period of offensive actions instigated by the Church and lasted a number of centuries. Add to that the forced conversions in Spain and slaughters there and elsewhere in Europe and the scales get very heavy indeed. Mongolians did not wage religious wars (correct me if I'm mistaken here) - and their rampaging took place before the leaders accepted Islam. In fact they attacked the then muslim empire. Christians of North Africa were allies of the Muslim empire and Abysinnia was never invaded. Zoroastrians in Iran(Persia) weren't, to my knowledge, attacked by Muslim armies and forced to convert or massacred - but it appears valkyrie is thinking of a specific examples when mentioning these two people. I am interested in hearing your view and the comparison with the examples I give above for 'Christian' aggression. (the problem with history is that there is so much of it! :), so the request for enlightenment is genuine, let's discuss. ) Cheers, Shafique PS I see the Pope has apologised personally now. Let's hope it puts an end to the strife now. sniper420
what happedn to cristain communiteis in NA? valkyrie
I never said chri$tianity was a good relgion, it has more blood on its hands than islam does. I'll get back to your specific questions later.
Site i found on google... shafique
I'll have a look at the site later.
Looks like we agree in terms of who has more blood on it's hands. Where we might disagree though is whether Christianity is a good religion - I believe it is a good religion at it's core - but it has been misused for wars. This applies to Islam as well.
Cheers,
Shafique Mr & Mrs Inquirer lest bring back the glorious 'crusade' end of story :) Chocoholic Well much of the media is to blame for this fiasco, as they did not quote the whole of his speech, or the rest of the quote which the Pope was refering to, which puts the 1 sentence or so into context, which says that religion should be taught through peaceful methods and not through violence. I am hardly biased towards Christianity, seeing as I blame all religions for the problems in the world today, and I totally agree with Kanelli, that the world without religion would be a better place. After all you do not have to have religion to have faith! sniper420
kanelli's an dchoco's concept is called communism which utterly failed. Chocoholic No it's not communism at all Sniper, communism is a totally radical and horrid way to run things, clearly you don't know the difference. Just because you don't have religion doesn't make you a communist. And there are far more important things to get angry and upset about than a few silly words, for goodness sake, some people need to grow a tougher skin and start caring about the real problems in the world, instead of getting angry and violent over a few words - way to go to undo the sterotypes, again and again certain groups just keep on proving that they don't know any other way to deal with things, it's pathetic. Chocoholic Yep, here we go, as expected the typical fanatical reaction! - From Sky News: Gunmen shot dead an Italian nun at a children's hospital in Mogadishu in an attack that was linked to the Muslim backlash provoked by a speech by the Pope. The Catholic nun was blasted three times in the back. She was rushed to hospital but died in the treatment room. Her bodyguard was also killed in the attack, which took place in the capital, Mogadishu. One suspect was quickly arrested by Islamist militiamen who control the capital, witnesses near the scene said. A high-level Islamist source linked the attack to the controversy over Pope Benedict XVI's recent remarks about holy wars, which have been taken by many Muslims as an attempt to portray their religion as innately violent. "SOS hospital is assisted by the Catholic Church and the slain aid worker was a nun," the source said. "There is a very high possibility the people who killed her were angered by the Catholic Pope's recent comments against Islam." In Rome, Vatican spokesman Rev Federico Lombardi called the nun's murder "a horrible episode", Italian news agency ANSA said. "We are following with concern the consequences of this wave of hate, hoping that it does not lead to grave consequences for the church in the world," he said. kanelli Sniper, where have I ever mentioned communism? You are making wild assumptions yet again. Shaf, good points as usual. I said in my original post the world would be more peaceful and safe without religion and I still believe it. Religion is not the sole cause of conflict, but it is one cause that is avoidable. People should respect other religions, but they don't. Look at India for example - there is inter-religious fighting going on and people are being killed every few months in attacks. If the Christians and Muslims do decide to have at it, I will be pretty annoyed. I don't want to have any part of their feuds. Chocoholic Sadly K, people like you and me would get dragged into it anyway, as we would automatically be branded 'infidels'. kanelli I am so sad that a nun has been killed because of over-reactions to the Pope's speech. I wonder if Muslims are now going to be as vicious as the Israelis were over the past couple of months in Lebanon. arniegang this will go the same way as the cartoons :cry: :cry: :cry: shafique
I think you will find that all Muslim leaders and Muslims around the world will condemn the killing of the nun. There is no justification for this and the person who did this was not acting according to Islam.
I'm slightly surprised at kanelli's last comment - but let us wait and see if anything approaching what happened in Lebanon transpires as a result of the Pope's comments. Let's revisit after a month, say, and then judge whether the comment is fair to the Lebanese who suffered horrendously.
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli Shaf, I'm surprised if you thought I was slighting the Lebanese in any way, because I wasn't. My point is that some Muslims have acted violently in the wake of the Danish cartoons and now the Pope speech fiasco, so are they not equally as guilty of over-reacting as some people accuse the Israelis of doing when they perceive a threat to their beliefs, which is their homeland? shafique
Over a thousand Lebanese were killed and over a hundred Israelis were killed in the action. I think it is slightly insensitive to those who suffered on both sides to equate a war where people were killed and a country destroyed with the reactions of a perceived insult to a religion.
One nun has been killed and the cause hasn't yet been officially linked to the Pope's message (two people are in custody for the killing).
Therefore, with all due respect, I'm surprised you are suprised at my surprise. But then again, perhaps I am wrong and the people around the world will 'over react' and act like the Israelis. Let us wait and see.. let's see on the 17th October how many people have been killed etc.
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli How am I being insensitive? I said the Israeli army were vicious in the defence of their right to maintain a homeland. I also think that some Muslims are being vicious in their defense of Islam. Each one over-reacted and has been violent and murderous in order to protect their strong beliefs. There may not be 1000 nuns murdered, but there could be other attacks coming on Christians in general all over the world in light of the reaction to the Pope's speech. Yes, let's wait and see. I hope I am wrong. kanelli Christians seem to be more capable of handling criticism and humour about their religion, so I doubt that the Pope's speech and subsequent uproar will cause a huge stir amongst the Christian population and make them murderous in defence of the Pope or Christianity. Let's see. I suppose there could always be a few nutters out there... arniegang
In trying to play devils advocate here, i think Shaf, you have misread K's comment. She was merely making a comparison between the Isreali Reaction towards Leb and a Muslim reaction to the pope's comment. In summary both reactions were totally "unwarranted".
I really dont read what you read into this Shaf and i certainly dont think it was insensitive in the least.
just my 2p's worth. xibit You all don’t get it do you. I am really disappointed and saddened by some of the replies here. Is this what u all conclude that religion is the cause of conflict, and are turning to become atheists and Goths and Hippies or whatever. And the question still remains. Why? Why did the pope choose to mention and insult the Prophet PBUH ? All I can say right now is that I wish we had a worthy and admirable leader, a leader who could stand up to all the atrocities committed against Muslims and Islam. And the way things are going I don’t think that leader is very far away. I will add a few verses from the Holy Quran and the Hadith about Jesus please try to understand it. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful "And when Allah said: O Isa (Jesus), I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed." 03:055 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)" 019.033 "Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute." 019.034 Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah (tax). Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist (dajaal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him." Sunnan Abu Dawud 37:4310 arniegang
Whether you agree or not has no relevance. Religion has been the root cause of the majority of the unrest and wars and killing since the time when relgion first existed. This is not soley confined to Islam, it affects every single religion you can name.
In our bible and i am sure Shaf can quote me correct if i am wrong, isn't there a verse in the Lords Prayer that says
"forgive those that trespass against us"
It would be so nice if all religions including Islam, adopted this.
From where i stand, most religions write reams and reams about this that and the other, but the followers totally disregard anything that is actually written. Mr & Mrs Inquirer It very nice to see that the jews are having a bit of a rest bit :) shafique
There are many Christians who passionate about their religion and protest against what they see as wrong. Many of the pro-life activists in the States who have committed violence against abortion clinics are Christian and cite Christianity as their motivation for their violent stances.
There have been protests about the depiction of Jesus Christ and alleged insults against his character - the latest of which was for the Da Vinci code.
I support all people's rights to protest and would not characterise the believing Christians as 'nutters' for protesting against the fiction of Dan Brown. I don't agree with the protests, but I would not say they don't have the right.
I'd like to ask a question that I'd like you to ponder over and then reflect on what you have written above. Of all the protests around the world that have been reported against the Pope's remarks, do you think these numbered more or less than the worldwide protests and demonstrations against the Da Vinci Code?
Some countries banned the film because of the protests. Some demonstrations got violent.
At the end of the day people get emotional if what they hold dear gets insulted. Muslims are no better and no worse than Christians when it comes to defending the rights of what they hold dear. The difference is that there are far more 'nominal' Christians than their are believing and practicing Christians - to the point where in many societies a 'born again Christian' is taken to be a derogatory term applied to someone who people think have lost reason and 'found religion'.
I know you kanelli and do not think you would intentionally post words that could be construed as racist or Islamophobic. However, some of the posts above seem to be characterising Muslims as less civilised than Christians who would take equivalent comments in good humour. I don't think this assertion stands up to scrutiny when we examine the facts - Christians have their fair share of people who are passionate about their religion and who will protest when their faith is insulted - even in fiction.
Arnie - I still don't see how one can equate the protests thus far with the war in Lebanon, sorry. One nun being killed in Sudan does not make a war - but is a reprehensible crime that all the Muslim protestors around the world will condemn as a crime.
Arnie is right the Lords prayer does say, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspassed against us". For my part the Pope has now apologised and said he did not believe in the quote, I forgive him. For the record, the Quran requires Muslims to cease hostilities immediately after the other side calls a truce or is no longer a threat. Similarly the Prophet, pbuh, was the exemplar when it came to forgiving those who had persecuted him and the Christians - see the quote from the historian about the conquest of Mecca in the letter to newspapers I posted in this thread.
Religious wars have killed less people than non-religious wars, and were it not for God-fearing rulers, more people would have been killed. That is my view of historical wars and have yet to see any evidence for the oft-cited notion that religions cause more harm than good. I respect people's right to say this view of theirs, but forgive me if I don't agree with it without some evidence. :)
And a final thought for the night..
This thread and others in this forum show indeed how powerful words can be - even when they are just written down and not spoken and broadcast to the whole world! There is a lesson in this and we should think on what we write/say.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
Sorry, I went back and re-read this.
"Each one over reacted and has been violent and murderous"
You are saying that Muslim protests have been violent and murderous and can be likened to the Israeli bombing of Lebanon. You also say that you don't see why this might be viewed as being insensitive towards Lebanese.
That is an interesting view point. It is not one I would have made looking at the news, but as you say there could be many attacks on Christians as a result of the Pope's words.
I too hope you are wrong and wait and see - on this point we agree.
Cheers,
Shafique sniper420
well ui am errrrrrrrrr was a catholic and 90% of ppl dont even follow the commandments whcih are basic basic foundations of religion.
Secondly most of theattacks occur in third world countries like somalia where there are many unemployed ppl who dont have any work or crap to do and follow the mullahs there in contrast most of the christian lands are in west are developed but still occasionally we do hear mosque being vandalised and other incidents cos there are morons on both sides MS
I will not flame you, but will tell you are WRONG. The pope is entitled for what he said, and he is entitled for his citations. Note also that the reaction of the islamic world (governments and major organizations) can be summarized as: please give us an apology.
Islamic clerics do NOT call for the destruction of the west. So do not classify the islamic world by someone who does so. I'm not classifying the West by those who killed a Sikh man after 9 11 because he was wearing a turban. I'm also not classifying the west by those who caused damages to mosques after some Muslims have been arrested in Toronto in an alleged terror plot.
Finally, your words "once again" and "Get over it!" are impolite. seeking apology is a political norm, just as in the case of Mel Gibson's apology. sniper420
agreed MaaaD disrespects .. yes harasses ... i dont think so. rvp_legend l
Choco
My apologies, but i must disagree and argue on this one.
A) if it was not the Popes opinion, he has thus far had plenty of opportunities to say so. He said he made a quote in an acedemic environment, but he still hasnt said that he didnt agree to it - which is what the people want to hear, muslims and non muslims.
B) Is there such thing as a WORLD ISLAMIC BODY which voices the Opinions of all 1 Billion+ muslims? NO! so how can you pick up on a few angry statements made by an absolute fraction and state the above about killing the pope? In the aftermatch of Terror attacks on the Twin towers, numerous Americans live on TV said "Nuke Em" when asked how they thought their goverment should react. That was just the ordinary public. That was the feelings of few random idiots of a nation. The pope has offended a quarter of the entire globe. there are bound to be overreaction by others.
C) I remember the world in uproar when the outgoing Malaysian Prime minister accused the jews of ruling the world by Proxy - and ALL western leaders demanded, yes Demanded an apology, THREATENING to cut trade, and impose sanctions on the nation.
D)I am no apologist for the The Iranian leader (i truely think he is bad for the region) but when he accused the Jews as overstating the Holocaust for political gains, And invited a discussion on this topic. Western leaders were up in arms and Demanded an apology as it hurt the feelings of those who lost loved ones during the genocide. Yet, the Pope has just offended a billion + people, in regasrds to their Holy Prophet...yet this is over reaction?
E) Have we forgotten that the US president has a LARGE religious backing? the Same group who insist on the existance of Israel even if it means illegally. Those groups who encouraged the Iraq, Afghan and are pushing for the Iranian war? If thats not calling for Killing...what is?
The media always neglects the moderate islamic voices. They always promote the extreme to sell their agenda. Your comment to "Get over it " is very disrespecfull. I have many Muslim friends, and your characterisation of them is completely innaccurate. kanelli Arnie seems to have understood what I was saying, and Shaf, you are right - I certainly do not want to come off as racist or Islamophobic in my posts. I'll try to word more carefully but sometimes I just don't see all the possible interpretations. I wasn't comparing the fact that Israel and Hezbollah were at war - I was comparing two groups of people over-reacting. Yes, there has been violence and murder after Muslims have been offended by non-Muslims - don't you agree? I think about Theo Van Gogh, the Dutch film maker, as well as the nun recently killed. Non-Muslim tourists and embassy staff have been shot or bombed in many countries like Syria, Indonesia and Egypt. Yes, angry Christians can be murderous too - they have been murdering abortion clinic workers and doctors. valkyrie Kanelli Muslims are angry because the pope used Islam as a fulcrum to denigrate their culture. It's the same with the cartoon fiasco. The West hid behind freedom of speech to denigrate Islam, but when an Arab/Muslim group printed cartoons in response they were labeled as anti semitic. kanelli I do no such thing, and fully expect that card to be played by people like you. (you=ones with radical ideas who can't stand anyone disagreeing with them). Edit: This reply was to the original wording of your post, that you have now drastically changed. kanelli The West can label things anti-semitic and anti-Islamic - which in fact they did. The beauty of free speech is that anyone can print what they want and anyone can criticise what they want. I don't see how the West was hiding behind anything - free speech is free speech - and it comes with its own consequences. valkyrie Western double standards: "Anti-Jewish cartoons are repugnant and uncivilized! But anti-Islamic cartoons are OK with us!" Kanelli "The West can label things anti-semitic and anti-Islamic - which in fact they did. The beauty of free speech is that anyone can print what they want and anyone can criticise what they want. I don't see how the West was hiding behind anything - free speech is free speech - and it comes with its own consequences." May I post a cartoon of Jesus then, standing with his pants down, smiling, raping a little boy? The caption above it reads "Got Catholicism?" It's OK since we're all opposed to religion right? Or maybe a cartoon of a Rabbi with blood dripping from his mouth after bludgeoning a small Palestinian boy with a knife shaped like the Star of David - the caption reads "The Devil's Chosen Ones." That would be acceptable since we're all opposed to religion? Correct? Oh.. Right, I forgot. Such a thought would be "anti-Semitic," but racist, Islamophobic garbage is "OK" kanelli You are stereotyping! The West in general fights for the right to maintain free speech. It doesn't mean that everyone thought the cartoons weren't offensive. Can't you tell the difference between the two issues? And if I met a person who objects to anti-semitic cartoons yet thinks anti-Islam ones are okay I'd ask them why they feel that way and point out the hypocrisy of it. Chances are they'd change their opinion upon realising their bias. People can change their minds you know. MS
With all due respect, I disagree with you. Western free speech ends wehere the interests end. Under the same "free speech" you will be prosecuted if you question the numbers involved in the holocaust, and you will be procecuted if you mock gays or lesbians. kanelli I disagree. First of all, only a few countries legally penalise people for denying the holocaust - not the entire West. And I personally think those laws are ridiculous. Secondly, everyone has a right to free speech, but not to harrass people. For example, if people speak out against h.o.m.o.s.e.x.u.a.l.s by holding placards and screaming nasty things at a h.o.m.o.s.e.x.u.a.l's funeral - that is harrassment. So how the free speech is being conducted influences whether it is considered punishable or not. MS
Now I agree. I am personally an advocate for free speech, without harassing others. This icludes harassing Gays, lesbians, Jews, Christians or Muslims. Therefore, this icludes also the pope's speech. kanelli The Pope's speech is not harrassment, it is free speech. kanelli
Yes, Valkyrie - such a cartoon has every right to be published according to free speech. Some people will find the cartoon distasteful, some will not. Some people will criticise it, some won't. That is the beauty of free speech. There are still consequences of expressing oneself, but at least people are free to express themselves. People have fought and given their own blood for such freedoms. Truthfully, it would be great if some garbage was never put out into the public, but there isn't one right person capable of censoring it all, so there should be no censorship - period. MS
You're wrong, and 1.5 billion Muslims deserve an apology. kanelli Okay, if you want to take it that way - the Pope's speech "harrassed" people to the same extent that Ahmadinejad's comments about Israel and the holocaust offended Jewish people. I doubt you see the two situations as equitable though. Were you calling on Ahmadinejad to apologise? I don't remember you doing so on this forum. Both are clear examples of free speech (and both people deserved to apologise) - so no, I am not wrong. And by the way, the Pope did apologise. Perhaps you haven't been reading the news or watching TV for a few days... MaaaD
MS i usually follow your logice, but you lost me this time. Can you explain to me how his speech was harrassment? And how is his speech any different than what the sheikhs daily talking about jews and crusaders ?
Personally i really dont care what the Pope thinks of Islam. MS First of all, the pope did not apologize. He said he is sorry that his statement was misunderstood. That's not an apology. MaaaD, the speech disrespects 1.5 billion Muslims on this earth. The pope's quote was: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". kanelli MS, did you read the whole speech by the Pope or just that bit that has been published in the media? I have read his apology and yes, he did do a quick and superficial job of it. His apology does not address the main points of contention. MS
Agreed.
In any case, I don't really care about what has been said. My posts are intended to be more general: it seems that Muslims are the only group that can be harassed/disrespected/mocked/made fun of under free speech. When other groups are mentioned under the same free speech it is anti-something. MS
Kanelli, as I said, i'm not really concerned with this specific incidence. What I'm really concerned with is how Islam is globally perceived, and how Muslims are respected in the world. sniper420
well i guess u have to ask the leader of OIC to take actionand denounce terrorism and suiceide bombing ...ppl all over the world will have respect for em kanelli Good point Sniper, and MS, I find that you do just as good a job of stereotyping the West as you feel the West is doing about Islam. Chocoholic
This is not the whole of the quoted speech by the Pope, he actually went on to use the rest of the quote whish in fact everyone should agree with, and that is faith should be spread in a peaceful manner.
My personal view is that the whole thing was taken out of context. And if you're going to bash on about the Pope making an apology, then the President of Iran should apologise for insulting and belittling hundres of thousands of Jews over the Holocaust and saying he wished to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Were these not 'offensive' and 'insulting' to many people? Yes they were, but no-one threatened to murder him or start killing Iranians did they. kensus I am a Christian by birth, but I do share the pain and sentiments of the muslim brethren caused by the Pope's remarks. The remarks were indeed unfortunate, inappropriate and rather unbecoming from an office that teaches respect and tolerance for all religions. My only appeal at this stage is: let 'us' be 'more magnanimous' and accept the apology at face value. Chocoholic Sadly all this stuff just goes to reinforce my opinion that any and all religions are more problematic than they're worth. Concord Probably totally off topic but where have you been. It's all been left to poor Kanelli (in the forum) to deal with the nonsense. I've been working like a donkey (or acting like one if you ask around). Good to see you are back to inject some "sense". Chocoholic Sorry C, I've been so busy this week harldy any time at all. Will be the same over the weekend. But loadsa free time next week, as it all calms down. Back on topic, once again, all this stuff is only words. There are more important questions and issues to be dealing with than a centuries old piece of conversation - perspective people. Concord
100% with you. sniper420
which u lack :roll: rvp_legend
One man's sense is another BS.
same applies for both sexes! oeillet Allright,nice folks,all these reactions and unger are good and show how mush we are proud of our religion.But could any muslim or muslima comment on the offensive images that we see everyday on TV,via NET and,worse, even in our daily life around our respectable muslim and arab world!!!!!!!!!i guess no comment at all could be add.!!!???? valkyrie
the following is from 'Why I am not a Muslim' by Ibn Warraq p235-236
Zoroastrians
According to the "Tarikh-i Bukhara," a history of Bukhara written in about A.D.. 944, Islam had to be enforced on the reluctant inhabitants of Bukhara. The Bukharans reverted to their original beliefs no less than four times: " The residents of Bukhara became Muslims . But they renounced [Islam} each time the Arabs turned back. Qutayba b. Muslim made them Muslim three times, [but] they renounced [Islam] again and became nonbelievers. The fourth time, qutayba waged war, seized the city, and established Islam after considerable strife. . . . They espoused Islam overtly but practiced idolatry in secret."
Many Zoroastrians were induced to convert by bribes, and later, out of economic necessity. Many of these "economic converts" were later executed for having adopted Islam to avoid paying the poll-tax and land tax. In Khurasan and Bukhara, the Muslims destroyed Zoroastrian fire temples and constructed mosques on these sites. The "Tarikh-i Bukhara" records that there was considerable outrage at these acts of sacrilege, and a concerted resistance to the spread of Islam. One scholar sums up the situation thus: "Indeed, coexistence between Muslims and Zoroastrians was rarely peaceful, cooperation was fleeting, and conflict remained the form of intercommunal contact from the initial Arab conquest of Transoxiana untile the late thirteenth century A.D." A similar situation existed in Khurasan: "The violent military conflicts between the forces of the Arab commander Abd Allah b. Amir and the local Iranian lords, combined later with the destruction of Zoroastrian religious institutions, produced lasting enmity between Muslims and Zoroastrian in Khurasan."
The early conquests of Zoroastrian Iran were punctuated with the usual massacres, as in Raiy. If the town put up brave resistance to the Muslims, then very few men were spared. For example, at Sarakh, only a hundred men were granted amnesty, and the women were taken into captivity; the children taken into captivity were brought up as Muslims. At Sus a similar situation emerged--about a hundred men were pardoned, the rest killed. At Manadhir, all the men were put to the sword, and the women and children enslaved. At the conquest of Istakhr, more than 40,000 Iranians were slaughtered. The Zoroastrians suffered sporadic persecution, when their fire temples and priests were destroyed, for example, at Kariyan, Kumm, and at Idhaj. In a deliberate act of provocation the caliph al-Mutawakkil had cut down a tree putatively planted by Zoroaster himself. Sometimes the fire temples were cnverted into mosques.
The fiscal oppression of the Zoroastrians led to a series of uprisings against the Muslims in the eight century. We might cite the revolts led by Bihafarid between 746 and 748 and the rising of Sinbadh in 755.
Forced conversions were also frequent, and the pressures for conversion often led to conflict and riots, as in Shiraz in 979. To escape persecution and the forced conversions many Zoroastrians emigrated to India, where, to this day, they form a much respected minority known as Parsis. Conditions for the Zoroastrians became worse from the seventeenth century onwards. In the eighteenth century, their numbers, to quote the [i]Encyclopaedia of Islam (2d ed.), "declined disastrously due to the combined effects of massacre, forced conversion and emigration." By the nineteenth century they were living in total insecurity and poverty and suffered increasing discrimination. Zoroastrian merchants were liable for extra taxes; houses were frequently looted; they had to wear distinctive clothing; and were forbidden to build new houses or repair old ones.[/i] errtime so its ww2, and the nazis have invaded poland. a group of nazi soliders attacks a village, but a young priest manages to escape. a nazi solider follows him. the priest soon comes to a dead end, and the solider has already caught up with him, so he knows his time has come, and he kneels on the ground and starts praying. the solider aims his gun at him, and is about to pull the trigger, when he hears a voice from the heavens...." stop! i am god. the man you are about to kill will be pope one day." so the nazi solider says, "but god, whats in it for me?" god replies " you too, after him." :lol: sage & onion
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



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