shafique
In the Evening Standard (London) of 6 Feb 05, the following article by Peter Oborne on the editorial page struck me of worthy of reproduction:
Here is an extract
"I do not think that a great issue of free speech is at stake here. Even if I did, I wouuld never want to die in a ditch to defend the right to abuse a great religious leader.
Those who defend the right to publish the cartoon on the basis that we have have free speech in modern Western societies are wrong. There are all kinds of things we cannot say, and for very admirable reasons. We cannot insult minority groups. We cannot say that slavery was right. We cannot say that the Holocaust was a good thing.
If you made those claims in certain parts of London you could rely on a very violent response indeed, and very few observers would feel that was unreasonable. It seems natural for Muslims to ask that we do not insult the man they regard as the exemplar of all human goodness, and quite right for us to agree.
This row over the cartoons is about a misunderstanding between two great cultures. There are vocal and important minorities on both sides who want to widen the rift between the Muslim world and the liberal West into an abyss.
But most people, Muslims and liberals alike, hope we can live together in a tolerant way."
Food for thought?
Wasalaam,
Shafique
p.s. The main gist of his article was that the Labour - i.e. government - stance is right and that of the opposition Tory party is wrong.
p.p.s. I'm organising a muslim boycott of Danish bacon :lol:
Danishguy
I think that he are right in his point of view, in some way. It is fair that you don't print things that abuse other people.
But in the same time, he dont understand the reason of why these cartoons were printed. It was to create a debate, because a writer wanted to make a danish children book about Islam. The writer could get anyone to draw some pictures, because muslims in Denmark made threats against anyone who would draw some pictures to this book.
When the newspapers make a debate in Denmark there are often drawings as jokes, so it gives another view in the debate. and thats how simpel it can get.
People could say that: "I think Holocaust was a good thing", or "I think it never happened", and they wouldn't be punished for that.
Thats the same with Jyllands Posten, we can say it was stupid, but we cannot do more. (called free press)
I think we in Denmark have learned something in this case, but the system will and cannot change anything.
We cannot apologize, because it is not illegal, and will never be.
By the way:
i'm from the most famous country in the world right now, (think you have guessed) and i have joined this forum to learn more about what the common muslim thinks of this debate.
MaaaD
DanishGuy welcome to the forum, its good to hear your prespective on this. There are multiple threads on the issue so feel free to contribute :)
arniegang
Shaf
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo please
not Danish Bacon pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Anything else OK no probs
Liban
To the Dane.... Denying the holocaust is forbidden and a crime in many countries.
Keep in mind that the holocaust is extremly minor and petty compared to attacking Islam. Thats the power of zionism.
Chocoholic
Holocaust - minor? Yeah OK tell that to the millions that died and still suffer!
By the way there is a news story today about an Iranian newspaper holding a cartoon drawin competition to do with the Holocaust.
GAB
Gee, Liban! That is insulting-think before you type!!
Liban
Compared to Islam, the holocaust is a like a wart on a hippo.
GAB
Got to wonder if you actually live in the real world. :roll: Some days you actually make sense then you make half-arsed insulting comments the next. Shameful and disrespectful!
Liban
Not even all humanity dying off is worse than insulting God's choices for His Prophets.
Nothing. I don't blame you for not understanding me and thinking I am full of it... You do not beleive in God Allmighty.
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GAB
Your mind reading powers are supreme! :roll:
Seriously though, I honestly don't think you realise how insulting you are. You are infact being two faced. I find it abhorent that you can poke fun at something as serious as the Holocaust and deem it insignificant. If you expect people to respect your views at least present them in a respectable manner. To demean attrocities is uncharacteristic of an ethical person and certainly by one who claims to be religious. My morality, respect and compassion for others obviously outweighs yours. Your comments are intentionally hurtful and lack the compassion of any decent human being. Your comments are also racist and show a lack of intellect. You need to grow up.
kanelli
GAB, Liban is a lost cause. Sorry to say it, but after all these weeks of discussion he hasn't showed any understanding. He chooses to believe propaganda and to view the world with blinders on - and that is his choice, though we don't have to respect him for it.
Liban, your cliched rhetoric is getting really boring and has lost its shock value. We know exactly what kind of two-faced comments to expect from you.
Liban
Because this holocaust thing is blown out of proportion. Take a look at all the massacres in history and then you will see that this is minor...
I mean, recent history is an example:
Millions killed in Burundi and Rwanda in 1994. Does the West even bat an eyelid. Heh... Why is it because those poor souls were Black African? YEP YEP YEP... UN Major General Romeo Dallaire (Canadian peacekeeper) pleaded with Belgium (former Belgian colonies) and the West for help in preventing the millions of deaths. The West did nothing...
The zionist lobby is very effective in clouding people....
GAB
Hmmm....there in lies the problem. I believe ALL atrocities against humanity are appalling. Why compare them? You really have a whole race issue "thing" going!! You are trying to make one thing more important than the other. Violence is senseless. I'd hope we'd agree on that! :shock: Killing is senseless. I'd hope we'd agree on that! :shock: Racism is senseless! I'd hope we'd agree on that! :shock: To compare something as atrocious as the holocaust to a wart on a hippo's bum is just ridiculing that seneseless chapter in history. Ridcule is something you said you were against, but you seem to have gotten it down to a fine art when it suits your agenda which by the way is derisive. You seem to think all Westerners hate Muslims -the Muslim faith embodies followers of so many racial backgrounds for a start that they would actually be hating themselves. Such a ludicrous thing to think. Your circle of friends must be of one race and one faith.
Truly you must be the nicest person on Earth but you are so bored shitless you like to antagonise every man and his dog. Try eating chocolate-you need it! :wink:
Liban
- GAB wrote:
you like to antagonise every man and his dog. Try eating chocolate-you need it! :wink:
Dogs are disgusting and are instruments of satan in hell.
Chocolate is fattening.
GAB
:lol: C'est drôle ça! :lol: I was going to suggest a walk with my dog, a chat, a cafe latte and some chocolate. Life is full of disappointments! :cry: I am truly heartbroken! :lol:
Liban
- GAB wrote:
:lol: C'est drôle ça! :lol: I was going to suggest a walk with my dog, a chat, a cafe latte and some chocolate. Life is full of disappointments! :cry: I am truly heartbroken! :lol:
Je suis tres content que tu trouves ca drole... Oh yes!!
arniegang
Liban
You need to get out more and expand your social life.
Some of your disgraceful comments are not worthy of a response.
Liban
- arniegang wrote:
Liban
You need to get out more and expand your social life.
Some of your disgraceful comments are not worthy of a response.
Coming from a 48 year old stuck on his computer till 4am at times, I do not give your comments much credance.
arniegang
Some of us do not have to work
:P :P :P
Liban
Must be a boring pitiful life...
GAB
Liban- since you speak French I now see you in a whole different light!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote:
- Je suis tres content que tu trouves ca drole... Oh yes!!
I am so pleased to have made a positive impact on your day. May it be everlasting!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Liban
I thought the first clue of my speaking French would be calling myself Liban... :roll:
GAB
Remember, honey, I am blonde!! :lol:
Liban
:D
GAB
Oh, I made you smile again! Nothing like the kindness and humour of an old woman to bring out the best in one! :lol:
Liban
- GAB wrote:
Oh, I made you smile again! Nothing like the kindness and humour of an old woman to bring out the best in one! :lol:
Awwww.... :oops:
GAB
I have this inkling you maybe being sarcastic! :shock: Damn this blonde hair-always a let down when you really have to think!
Liban
No sarcasm involved... You'll know when I am being sarcastic :wink:
arniegang
- Liban wrote:
Must be a boring pitiful life...
Not boring at all Liban - i spend all my time doing the things i enjoy, and have the money to do so
:P :P
Liban
With the amount you spend on bullshit, I am surprised your small fortune has gotten you as far as they have...
Besides, some of us work for the pleasure of working. Jacking off all day in front of Dubaiforums is not what many would consider "fun".
arniegang
- Liban wrote:
With the amount you spend on bullshit, I am surprised your small fortune has gotten you as far as they have...
Besides, some of us work for the pleasure of working. Jacking off all day in front of Dubaiforums is not what many would consider "fun".
What makes you think i have a "small" fortune??
8) 8) 8)
arniegang
- Liban wrote:
Besides, some of us work for the pleasure of working. Jacking off all day in front of Dubaiforums is not what many would consider "fun".
mmmmmmmm ssems you have a similar hobby to me then, and such a good average over the year too :P
Yes, i remember the days when i "had" to work, the problem was i was so good at it, it came to the point, that i didnt have to 8)
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Location: Dubai, UAE (Part of the Arab Nation)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
GAB
So your point is Arnie that Liban's real name is Wayne Kerr? :lol:
sree
A danish newspaper publishied few cartoons . It would have gone unnoticed . But today the whole world knows about it and the newspaper as well as the catoon got the best publicity ,it doens't deserve
Who has done more harm ? Is it the newspaper or is it the so called solidiers of almighty ? And does Almighty needs the help of these so called soldiers ?
regds
Sreedhar
kanelli
Peaceful protest would have been one thing, but all the violence and threats of violence now reflect poorly on Islam, unfortunately.
I really hope that more moderate Muslims will take actions to reign in or disassociate themselves from radical Muslims. Not saying anything and sitting back to watch the fur fly gives the impression that moderate Muslims would rather support the radicals than admit that fellow Muslims are acting out of line.
It is the same thing with Iraq. Where is the big protest from Muslims at the fellow Muslims of differing factions who are killing dozens of innocent civilians in Iraq every day? Why are the coalition forces being blamed for more deaths when it is the Muslims of different factions that are killing far more civilians than the coalition forces are? It gives the message that it is okay for Muslims from surrounding countries to come in and make Iraq unstable for political purposes, but it isn't okay for the coalition to be in Iraq.
Chocoholic
Well as I said in the other thread Kanelli, Moderate Muslims in the UK and the Islamic leaders called for all those with placrds condoning violence and asking for killings etc and the guys dressed as suicide bombers to be arrested, which many have been, so they're starting to react to those who act appallingly.
kanelli
That is excellent news Chocoholic.
I look forward to seeing large protests that show the radicals how small of a group they really are, and that they are not being supported by wider Islam.