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Sunni vs Shia


Flying Dutchman Quote from Wiki: In addition to the preceding cases, one can note that wealthy Arab men sometimes enter into a Misyar marriage while on vacation, in order to have sexual relations with another woman without committing the sin of zina. They usually divorce the women once their holiday is over. One should note, however, that if this is understood by both parties at the time of conclusion of the marriage contract (and this is usually the case) this would constitute a fixed time period, effectively making such a marriage invalid in Sunni law, and more akin to the Shia Mut'ah marriage. /quote
MC Ok this may have been mentioned before but I would like to discuss the differences between these 2 sects. Actually discuss might not be the right word as I am actually aiming to gain more knowledge about the arguments each side has regarding their differences.
I know that some of you would say taht we should just follow the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet pbuh, but that is not what I want to hear. Basically I would like to hear arguments of both sides, which may be hard as I'm not sure if there are any Shias on this site.
Anyway what I would like to discuss is the following:
-Sucessors of the Prophet
-Emphasis
Mainstream Sunnism has been said to be "about" Sharia, sacred law. In contrast, Shia also follow Islamic law with great "vigilance", but their belief is not defined by law but emphasises "rituals, passion and drama."
-Mutah
(from Wikipedia)
How would each side argue their point regarding the above 3 subjects?
Also what arguments would a Sunni use to support facts that their Ahadith are right, and what would Shias do to support the same?
I know there is a little too much to discuss but just do what you can. MaaaD Interesting subject MC, i am not a religious person myself but i have been investigating Shia Islam for a while and i can tell you that there is a lot of misconceptions about the sect and in most major things they are very similar to sunni islam. here are few major differences: -The succession of the prophet in the Shia faith was supposed to be gone to Ali after the prophet and after him to the other imams (12 in total) the last imam will show up at the end of time (Mahdi). -Hadith is only approved if it has been narrated by someone who is from within (Al Al Bayt) or the prophets descendants as they are considered the purest people to narrate what the prophet said, while others might have added or removed from the hadiths. -Fatwas are only given by a few scholars (Marji3) who are considered the highest authority and they are the only ones who can give rulings to new issues that haven't been mentioned in the Quran or Sunna. -Grouping of prayers is permitted even if you are not traveling so you could pray 3 times a day any day you want. -Mutah is permitted but there are strict restrictions on it, so its not as easy as some might think. I think i covered many things .. as for the spirituality and differences in sharia .. i cant comment on that. i think this is an interesting discussion and hope people from both sides will contribute. shafique Good topic. Any answers we give are going to be generalisations, as under each heading there are many sects. Sunni and Shia are actually a family of sects - and there is much that is common between individual sects. Historically, the division between Shia and Sunni was a political one, not religious - but over time the religious aspects has caused divergence (the original 'Shia' in the time of the first 4 Khalifas did not have a different practice of Islam, but with coming generations there was divergence). However, even history is now hotly disputed and is at the core of the Sunni/Shia divide. To answer your 3 questions briefly: 1 . Successor - Sunnis believe the first 4 Khalifas were legitimate, whilst Shia believe only the 4th was the legitimate successor (Ali, may God be pleased with him). 2. All religious sects believe that Islam's laws should be followed - I would not agree with the statement that Sunnis follow the Sharia whilst Shia emphasise rituals - there are Sunni sects that have rituals, and Shia sects that are strict about Sharia. Shia do commemorate certain festivals more 'religiously' than Sunnis - but both view Karballa etc as great tragedies. I am sunni and I have great respect for all the 12 Imams (personally I don't believe the Imams believed/preached what current Shia alims say they did, but that is a different story). 3. Mutah - temporary marriage. This is something that to my knowledge all Sunnis do not agree is an allowable practice, but some Shia sects do allow this. The clincher for me is that there is no record of the Prophet, Khalifas or any of the Shia Imams actually practising this arrangement. Some more differences of Shia philosophy with my beliefs are: 1. principal of inheritance of leadership 2. infallibility of Imams 3. dietary laws - eg. not eating fish without scales, and not eating crustaceans (closer to Judaic law than generally what other Muslims consider Halal). 4. It is ok to pray to saints for intercession (I think that some Shia may not think this is ok, but the ones I spoke to did). I've debated with some Shia Alims (scholars) who are from the 12'er tradition. They are very strong on Hadith and can make very good arguments in favour of the Shia beliefs from the books of Hadith used by Sunnis. However, I found some of the peripheral beliefs of the Shia I spoke to a little strange - eg how at the beginning of mankind's existence, God sent down 'hand maidens' from heaven (houris) to mate with humans and populate the world. Finally, there are some off shoots of both Sunni and Shia that have quite different beliefs/practices from the mainstream Muslims. There are the dervishes of Turkey - Sufis from a Sunni background (I think) - Ismailis, Druze, Sufis in general and many, many more sects. Cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman
Don´t Sunni´s have the misyar marriage? Is this comparable with mutah? MC Thanks for the input. I should have said this from my first post but I am actually Shia. Admittedly not very knowledgeable but I do know the basics and some of the arguments.For example regarding Muta, there are Ahadith that support the fact that the Prophet did allow it, but it was later stopped by Omar Bin Al Khatab during is Khalifa after the Prophet's death. In addition, there are also Ahadith supporting the Prophet commenting on a group of people, I am not sure exactly how it goes but basically he says "Those are from Shiite Ali". Suggesting that Shias did indeed exist during the prophet's time. Yeah quite vague but my memory isn't the best. The point of this thread is that I am trying to get a dialog going between knowledgeable Sunnis and knowledgeable Shias. It's hard to get this type of discussion going in real life so these forums should be the next best thing. I unfortunately am not the best person to represent the Shias as I'm still pretty confused myself. My parents are Shia but I was brought up around Sunnis and also classes in school were Sunni influenced. Regarding your debates with Shia scholars, can I ask what subjects it dealt with specifically and were you able to effectively argue your point? shafique FD - I have not heard of 'misyar' marriages, I'd be interested in reading about which sects follow this (and what exactly this is). MC - my debates (or rather discussions) with Shia covered pretty much all the basic differences between Shia and Sunni. I was given a lot of material to read about why the Shia view of the succession should be followed. I spent a lot of time to understand some of the more contentious beliefs - including Mutah, infalibility of Imams, the belief in a hereditary Imamate etc. The discussions were cordial, but ultimately revolved around Hadith rather than the Quran and Sunnah. Ultimately the discussions gave me a much better insight into Shia beliefs. We weren't able to agree on the basic issues separating Sunni and Shia. Cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman
I only know this from Saudi´s visiting Dubai and looking for a temporary marriage during their time in Dubai. So I think this is especially practised in KSA. I donot know whether this is something Wahhabi or Sunni in general. Anyways, you can google it, before I say untrue things here. shafique Well, that sounds like prostitution to me - but it's a bit bizare that it requires one of the two parties (presumably the lady) to not know that it will be a temporary arrangement. I mean, how does that work? :) So, I stand corrected - temporary marriages may also take place amongst sunnis as well - but I have to say I've never heard of this, let alone know anyone who advocates or practices this. Cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman
Bingo!

You can learn a lot in the wild nightlife of Dubai...quite a common practice here I have to say...

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ebonics its a common practice everywhere, misyar marriage is one word for it, another is Orfy marriage, also for the same reason... some dont get married and still sleep around, then at the end of the year go and to mecca for piligramage, and they consider everything forgiven, particularly saudis.. shafique Well - you live and learn! Cheers, Shafique rudeboy sorry guys but since we are talking about sunnis and shias who exactly are the 12 imams? is this what sunnis believe in or the shias believe in?? anyone?? shafique
Do a Google rudeboy ! :)
The 12 Imams are what a branch of Shia (the main branch) believe in. They are commonly called '12ers' - and the Shia of Iran (Ayotollah Khomeni, Ahmedinejad etc) are all 12ers.
The 12 Imams are who they consider to be the 12 rightly guided leaders of Muslims - the first Imam being Ali, the 4th Khalifa according to Sunnis, and the first true Khalifa (successor) according to all Shia.
The eleven Imams after Ali are all successors and typically the son of the previous Imam. 12ers believe that the 12th Imam did not die but is in 'hiding' and will return in the latter days.
The 12 imams are all considered to be the true rulers of Muslims of their time, and all are considered to be infallible (according to Shia theology).
Now, not all Shia believe in the 12. After the 6th Imam, there were a group of Shia that believed that his first born son Ismael was the 7th Imam, whilst others believed that another son was the rightful heir. The 12ers are in the latter group and say this is the case because Ismael died before his father.
However the first group, now known as Ismailis, continued to believe that the 7th Imam was Ismael. I think they believe he did not die and is in hiding. The current leader of the Ismailis is the Aga Khan.
Even within the Ismaili and 12er streams of shia, there are numerous sects under each. The Druze of Lebanon are an off-shoot of Ismaili shia. There are different shia sects close to here - for example the Yazedi Shia of Yemen.
Now, from my perspective (as a sunni), I believe that the 12 Imams were all pious and saintly scholars of Islam. I believe that some of the teachings that are attributed to some of them (that are theologically different from sunni Islam) are innovations. Historically when the shia broke away, it was a political difference and not theological. The theological differences came much later - many of the beliefs originating in Persia rather than Arabia. However this sunni view is controversial to shia and I emphasise this is my personal view and not what the Shia themselves believe (they believe their practices are the true teachings of Islam as their Imams are infallible representatives of God).
Cheers,
Shafique rudeboy heheh i would have googled it but you cant trust some of the websites on google when it comes to Islam ;). by the way dont the shias believe that the successor of Muhammad (PBUH) should be a descendant of Muhammad (PBUH)? shafique
Yes - the first Imam was Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet, pbuh, and the other Imams were all descendants and hence family members of the prophet, pbuh.
Cheers,
Shafique rudeboy
out of the 11 imams who have come and gone how many of them were shias and sunis? and its a bit ironic that the 12th imam has yet to come and so does Prophet Issa (Jesus) have to come and that to on the day of judgement!! reviewer
As I'm curruently reading books about Nizari Ismailis, Aga Khans, its history and beliefs, I've came across the Twelvers commonly called as Ithnā 'asharīyahs (12=Itnash in Arabic). Their are largest group in Shia Islam which includes a small minority of Ismailis, Zaydi, Bohras, Qarmatians...The Ithnā 'asharīyahs tends to call themselves just Shias being the predominant group. reviewer
Yes, you're right the Shia believe that succeding Imans should be a descendant of Muhammed(PBUH), which makes the first 3 caliph usurpers of the title.
rudeboy it doesnt make sense to me. alrite u r a shia and you have your own beliefs but what if one of the 12ers was a sunni or he believed that there was one god and muhammad (pbuh) was gods last messenger, what happens then?? Flying Dutchman .

Wow, actually never knew that Sunnis donot consider Shi´ites as Muslims. :shock: Habib Assalamu alaikum wa Rahmatullah,
There is actually nothing in common, whatsoever, between Muslims and Shi'ites except for some terms, phrases and words with the context and meanings being different for each party.
To illustrate, "Allah", "The Messenger" and "The Qur'an" are shared words. However, they do not refer to the same Diety, Prophet & Book. Ayatullah Ni'matullah al-Jazaa'iry, writes in his book "al-Anwaar al-Nu'maniyyah":
إنا لا نجتمع معهم –أي مع أهل السنة –على إاله، ولا على نبي، ولا على إمام، وذلك أنهم يقولون إن ربهم هو الذي كان محمد نبيه وخليفته من بعده أبو بكر. ونحن لا نقول بهذا الرب ولا بذلك النبي، بل نقول إن الرب الذي خليفة نبيه أبو بكر ليس ربنا ولا ذاك النبي نبينا) الأنوار النعمانية 2/278 باب نور الحقيقة

"We do not share with them (i.e AhluSunnah) the same God, Prophet or a leader, because they claim that their God is He whose Prophet is Muhammad and whose successor is Abu Bakr. As for us, we do not believe in such a God nor in such a Prophet. Rather, we say, that the God whose successor of His prophet is Abu Bakr is not our God nor that Prophet is our Prophet" al-Anwaar al-Nu'maniyyah 2/278
In fact, Shi'ites historians admit to the fact that the founder of Shi'ism is the Jew Abdullah bin Saba'. See for example the books of al-Ash'ari, al-Qummi, al-Kash-shi and al-Nubakhti. They have all reported the following:
وحكى جماعة من أهل العلم من أصحاب علي عليه السلام أن عبدالله بن ســــبأ كان يهوديا فأسلم ووالى عليا عليه السلام وكان يقول وهو على يهوديته في يوشع بن نون بعد موسى عليه السلام بهذه المقالة فقال في إسلامه بعد وفاة النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم بمثل ذلك وهو أول من أشهر القول بفرض إمـــامة علي عليه السلام وأظهر البراءة من أعدائه وكاشف مخالفيه فمن هناك قال من خالف الشيعة إن أصل الرفض مأخوذ من اليهودية
"A group of knowledgeable people among the followers of Ali [as] have reported that Abdullah bin Saba' was a Jew who embraced Islam and sided with Ali [as]. While being a Jew, he used to promote (the notion) that Jashua bin Noon was the Successor of Moses. When he converted to Islam, he promoted the same after the death of the Prophet [pbuh] in like manner. He was the first to suggest the imposition of Ali's leadership and publicly denouncing his enemies. Hence, those who oppose the Shi'ites proclaim that the origin of Shi'ism is derived from Judaism.
Even the Holy Qur'an, that is sacred to all Muslims, the Shi'ites claim to have been distorted by the Companions of the Messenger [pbuh]. Hence, they only hold on to 3-5 companions and honor them, while the rest (over 100,000) they denounce and consider them apostates.
AhluSunnah believe that the Messenger [saw] had a Messege to deliever. That is, to spread the Message of Allah. Whem he passed away, he did not leave anyone in-charge. Nor was it part of the Message to appoint a successor. However, the Companions have chosen Abu Bakr [ra] to succeed him due to many factors, such as being his closest Companion, and him being his companion during the imigration from Makkah to Madinah, etc.
The Shi'ites, on the other hand, claim that Allah [swt] has appointed Ali by name in the Qur'an, but the Companions have erased his name to usurp the leadership from him. But they have failed to present a single sound proof that Allah and/or His Messenger has explicitly named Ali to be the successor.
They, furthermore believe, that 11 infallible descendants of Ali were appointed by Allah, the last being the so-called Mahdi, who went into an occultation some 1200 years ago, still alive and runs the universe instead of Allah. In total, the Shi'ites believe in a 14 infallibles co-equal to Allah.
A major difference between the Muslims & the Shi'ites, is that the later divine their Imams and call on them instead of calling on God for help, support, healing, etc.
Temporary Marriage: The Muslims have the consensus that such a marriage was forbidden. It is but a legalized prostitution widely spread among the Shi'ites. In such a marriage, all it takes for the couple is to say a phrase, such as the woman saying: I give you myself as a wife for the period of (half hour, one night, one week, one sexual intercourse or whatever thery may agree on) for the amount of $$$, and the man says: I agree. No witnesses is required nor the presence of her guardian. When the time is up, the contract expires. No divorce, no rights nor financial support is due for her. Nor will the so-called wife inherit him should he dies while in relationship with her. According to their infallibles, a man can have a 1000 women on such a term, not counted part of the 4 wives permitted by Allah.
The so-called Misyaar Marriage, is actually a normal marriage in every sense of the word. However, in such a marriage, the woman would voluntarily drop off one or more of her "Rights", such as the financial support, or her fair sharing of Nights with the other wife. But such a marriage would be registered in the courts to preserve her rights should he dies or divorces her.
While the Mut'ah (Pleasure) or Temporary Marriage is often kept secret from family and friends, especially on the woman's side, Misyaar may be kept secret by the man, such as not informing his wife or his family. But never on the wife's side. Thus, any time is set out for the Marriage is considered forbidden and invalid.
Another major difference between Muslims & Shi'ites, is that Muslims respect and honor the Wives of the Messenger and his Companions, while the Shi'ites dispise, curse, slander and hate them.
Science of Hadith:
The Muslims have kept an excellent record preserving the statements of the Messenger [saw] by developping the science of Hadith to scrutinize true from false statements. No less than 3 centuries later, Shi'ites began to adopt the Muslims' criteria of Hadith. Even though, Shi'ites cannot present a single "Sound" Hadith based on their own criteria. They proudly proclaim," we do not have any authentic Hadith book".
It is worthy to note here, that the so-called "infallible Imams" are pious scholars, and have suffered lies attributed to them by those who claim to be their shi'ites (supporters). Jaber bin Yazid al-Ju'fi, one of the foremost narrators of Shi'i hadith, is said to have narrated some 70,000 narrations from Imam al-Baqir. al-Kash-shi, a grand scholar on Shi'i narrators reports from Imam Ja'far, son of al-Baqir: By Allah, I have never seen Jaber bin Yazid al-Ju'fi with my father, and he may have visited me once or twice.
Never did he meet al-Baqir, and may have visited al-Sadiq once or twice, yet reports 70,000 Hadith from them. Such a person is believed by the Shi'ites, but those who have seen, sat, listened, ate, mingled and fought with the Prophet [pbuh], whom Allah has commended in the Qur'an in various verses, they do not believe them, nor do they accept their narrations.
The fact of the matter is that Shi'ism is a mixture of Jewish, Christian & Zoroastrian religions with Islamic terms for cover up.
May Allah guide us all to what Pleases Him, Amen. spoonman Nice post Habib, so Shi'ite will go to hell eventually? ebonics
they dont really like each other, im very limited of my knowledge of shi'ites, but i know that when a sunni muslim states the population of muslims worldwide, they include the numbers of shi'ites....
in saying that, there's no current conclusive evidence of how many sunnis and how many shi'iates are in the world in terms of population, due to the high concentration in very under-documented areas in terms of proper means of census etc. shafique I have heard it argued that many of the differences between Shia and Sunni practices of Islam originate from Jewish and Zorastrian traditions. I'll name two prominent ones: 1. the notion of a priesthood/kingship passed on from father to son 2. some of the dietary laws - eg not eating fish without scales, or crustacea (crabs, lobsters etc) Both are Jewish customs that found their way into Shia Islam, it is argued. Also, there is the argument that geo-politically, Shia Islam originated at the fringes of the Islamic empire, not at the core (around Mecca and Medina). I personally believe that the Imams of the Shia were sincere Muslims and even rank as 'saints'. However, I also believe that later Shia elevated them to the status of infallible representatives of God on earth ('Imam' literally means leader, but has this extra connotation in Shia theology). I would not say that Shia Muslims are non-Muslim - all who call themselves Muslim cannot be called a non-Muslim in my understanding. However, I am a sunni and do not believe many Shia customs and theology are correct . Cheers, Shafique Habib
Jazaakallah,
The Creed of AhluSunnah is never to judge who goes to hell and who goes to paradise except for those who were named or identified as such by Allah [swt] or his Messenger [saw]. However; we do say that whoever believes, for instance, the Qur'an was tampered with, or slanders the Prophet's wives, has committed an apostacy, and if he dies before repentance his destany is for hell.
Many people think, however, that whoever pronounce the 2 testimonies is a Muslim no matter what. But this is not true. For if we had a Christian embraced Islam and testified there's no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger, but when it comes to Jesus [as], he insists that he is the son of Allah. In such a case, his testimony of La ilaha illa Allah does him absolutely no good, because he did not meet the prerequisites of La ilaha illa Allah.
And Allah knows best. spoonman
so you say Shi'ite did this? Habib They do much more than that. I simply gave an example. Otherwise, they believe:
1- That their Imams know the unseen: what was, what is, and what will be until the Day of Judgement, contrary to the teaching of the Qur'an: "Say: no one knows the unseen in heavens and on earth but Allah".
2- The pillars of faith for them void of the 2 testimonies. It is replaced with al-Wilaya.
3- They believe in "al-Badaa' " which is basically a Jewish creed, believing that Allah may change His mind.
4- They hold their Imams to a higher rank than the Messengers of Allah
5- They hold tight to the creed of "Tuqya" or "Taqiyya" which is basically nothing but a hypocracy.
6- They believe that AhluSunnah are "Nasibi" (Enemies of Ahlul-Bayt), and as such they (AhluSunnah) are disbelievers and condemned to hell.
7- The list is endless. As I have said, there is NOTHING in common between Muslims and Shi'ites except for words and phrases w/o their context. In fact, it is mandatory for the Shi'ites to do things differently to avoid resembling AhluSunnah.
For more info on the Shi'ites, here is an audio clip of An American Sister who converted from Shi'ism (being a Shi'ite for some 15 years) to Islam. Just click the play button:
&lid=463 MaaaD Habib let me start off by saying i am not a Shi'a, but your posts are full of incorrect facts and things that are blatantly ignorant statements that are always mentioned by people who are seeking divisions. I dont have the time to rebuff all the points you make (most of them are either flat our incorrect, or deviated from the truth) My advice is that you spend some time with a Shia person or Imam and listen what they got to say. You will find that all the rhetoric that is repeatedly spread by Sunni Muslims about shia are incorrect. You are free to hold on to your opinions obviously but i really am disheartened to see this intersect hatred, and this translated to the political level where we find arab countries ready to get into alliances with Israel to destroy there muslim brothers. Again, i stress that you should mingle with Shia and attend there religious sermons if you want to know how they think rather than get it from ignorant sources that make stuff up. Habib Maaad,
I respect your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, I am ready to delete my posts should you point out a single statement that I cannot support from Shi'i literatures or audios by their Ayatullas.
I just don't know how you figured there's hatred involved therein, when the issue is simply exchaning knowledge on Shi'ites faith. If you, or any reader, feel there's any misinfo presented in my post, you are invited to clear the confusion. But simply to paint the entire post as "full of incorrect facts and things that are blatantly ignorant statements that are always mentioned by people who are seeking divisions." is unacceptable. nismo
im a shia , but not a very good muslim , as i drink and bang women and do other bad things, we are all going to hell regardless of being sunni , shia or mitsubishi. so debating about it will get you nowere anyways , you are going to hell in the end.
you should listen to maad advice , sit with a shia scholar and open that small political disfigured brain of yours. Habib Still waiting for someone to pick a wrong statement I made. spoonman Mitsubishi :lol: :lol: spoonman
I'm not a Muslim, but I have lived most of my life in a shia country and had 12 years of mandatory Islam teachings at school.
I have never heard of al-badaa. and The ones that hold Imams higher that Muhammad are not called shia. A group which regards Ali higher than Muhammad are called 'Ali-Allahi'. Shias regard their Imams as saints.
you judge them by the ideas of the hardliner extremist shias. Tthey can do the same to Sunnis. I bet there are extremist Sunnis as well. Habib The Concept of "Badaa' " in Shi'ism originated with them when their Imam Ja'far (Abu Abdullah) declared that his successor would be his son Ismael. However, it happened that Ismael died before his father (remember that they believe their Imams know the unseen, what was and what shall to come, & that they die by their own choice - such is the title of a chapter in al-Kafi). When asked, how it came to being, Ja'far replied: (Badaa Lillah fi Ismael) Allah has decided to change His mind regarding Ismael. From this incident, the Ismaeli Shi'ites evolved, claiming since Ismael was named an Imam, then the successionship must be in his linage. many Shi'ites scholars have recently wrote on the subject al-Badaa'. It suffices to refer to al-Kafi book of Shi'i traditions to find a dozen narration or so concerning al-Badaa'. The group Ali-Allahi or the Alawis are another sect all together believing Ali to be Allah in the flesh. However, the 12ver Shi'ites are short of calling Ali Allah, otherwise, for them he does what Allah does equally. This can be supported from their own books and by speeches (audio clips ready) made by their modern scholars. I can humbly say, I have on my home bookshelves more than 3000 books of theirs. :) MC
How about you provide some sources for your claims then? To argue with your statements all I have to do is put False in front of all of them without mentioning any sources either, and I would be just as credible as you.
Anyway I'll do some more reading and see what I can find regarding your claims, till then why don't you pick one of those '3000 books' and site them or at least provide some links. Habib MC, your suggestion woul've been valid if the issue was writing a research paper. This is not the case though. I would assume that since you are a shi'a, you ought to refute what you believe to be a wrong statement. In return, I would come to support my claim with a counter evidence from your "original sources". Such is the ABC of a dialogue. On the other hand, I and the readers, would assume that until proven wrong, all what I presented is valid on Shi'i beliefs. Again, I stress on the fact that I only stated what I know, based on my studies and research, as a form of exchanging knowledge. No insult or belittling is intended whatsoever. Habib
By all means. Here's a topic I wrote some times back on "Shi'ites Qualities", I pray you find it interesting and verify the sources for the good of all :)
Qualities of the Shi’ites
The Shi’ites have always complained that the vast majority of AhluSunnah have, for centuries, misjudged them simply because they read books written by Anti-Shi’ites.
To better understand them, the Shi’ites would suggest reading books written by Shi’a authors, in order to have a balanced and fair judgment of who they are and what they stand for.
With some reservations, I may be one of those who support this approach. I have purchased hundreds of their books for the sake of that “better” understanding.
In this little “research”, I intend to list the qualities of the Shi’ites, as derived from their authentic sources, for the sake of being “Fair”.
(1) The Shi'ites Are Bastar/ds:
[color=blue]يونس بن ظبيان، عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد (ع) أنه قال: إن موسى وهارون عليهما السلام لما دخلا على فرعون لم يكن في الذين حضروا واستشارهم يومئذ فيهم من هو لغير رشده، ولو كانوا كذلك أمروه بقتلهما، ولما قالوا أرجه وأخاه وأشاروه بالتأني والنظر. قال: ثم وضع أبو عبد الله يده على صدره وقال: وكذلك والله نحن، لا ينزع إلينا إلا كل خبيث الولادة[/color]
Yunus bin Dhibyaan, from Abu Abdullah Ja'far bin Muhammad [as] saying:
When Moses and Aaron [as] entered on Faroh, there were none among his advisors who was insane. If they were as such, they would have advised him to kill them both. So when they said: "Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while) [26:36]", they (actually) advised him with reconsideration and attentivness.
(The narrator) Said: Abu Abdullah then placed his hand on his own chest and said: By Allah, such is our case too; no one comes to our support but he who is a bastar/d.
(Reported by: al-Nu'man b. Muhammad al-Tameemy, Sharh al-Akhbaar vol.3, p. 8; Ali al-Tabarsi, Mishkaatul-Anwaar p.455; al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol.13, p.137; Muhammad b. Mas'oud al-Ayyashi, Tafseer al-Ayyashi, vol.2, p. 24; al-Fayd al-Kaashaani, Tafseer al-Saafi, vol.2, p. 225; al-Fayd al-Kaashaani, al-Tafseer al-Asfaa, vol. 1, p. 391; al-Huwaizy, Tafseer Noor al-Thaqalayn, vol. 2, p. 55)
(2) Shi’ites are Hypocrites:
[color=blue]خالد بن حماد قال: حدثني الحسن بن طلحة رفعه، عن محمد بن إسماعيل عن علي بن يزيد الشامي قال: قال أبو الحسن (ع): قال أبو عبد الله (ع): " ما أنزل الله سبحانه آية في المنافقين إلا وهي فيمن ينتحل التشيع [/color]
“Narrated Khalid bin Hammaad saying: narrated to me al-Hasan bin Talha (quoting) Muhammad bin Ismael, from Ali bin Yazeed al-Shaami saying: Abul-Hasan [as] said: Abu Abdullah [as] said:
No verse revealed by Allah concerning hypocrites, but it perfectly fits those who are of Shi’a persuasion.”
[Reported by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 65, p. 66; Rijaal al-Kash-shy, p. 254, Ali Akbar al-Ghifary, Studies in the Science of Dirayah, p. 155; Rijaal at-Tusi, vol.2, p. 589; Mu’jam Rijaal al-Kho’ei, vol.15, p.265]
[color=blue]حدثنا محمد قال حدثنا الحسن قال حدثنا إبراهيم قال أخبرنا إسماعيل بن أبان الأزدي قال حدثنا عمرو بن شمر الجعفي عن جابر عن رفيع بن فرقد البجلي قال سمعت عليا (عليه السلام) يقول أ لا ترون يا معشر أهل الكوفة و الله لقد ضربتكم بالدرة التي أعظ بها السفهاء فما أراكم تنتهون و لقد ضربتكم بالسياط التي أقيم بها الحدود فما أراكم ترعوون فما بقي إلا سيفي و إني لأعلم الذي يقومكم بإذن الله و لكني لا أحب أن آتي ذلك منكم و العجب منكم و من أهل الشام أن أميرهم يعصي الله و هم يطيعونه و أن أميركم يطيع الله و أنتم تعصونه إن قلت لكم انفروا إلى عدوكم قلتم القر يمنعنا أ فترون عدوكم لا يجدون القر كما تجدونه و لكنكم أشبهتم قوما قال لهم رسول الله (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) انْفِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فقال كبراؤهم لا تَنْفِرُوا فِي الْحَرِّ فقال الله لنبيه قُلْ نارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّا لَوْ كانُوا يَفْقَهُونَ [/color]
“Narrated Muhammad saying: Narrated to us al-Hasan saying: Narrated to us Ibrahim saying: Ismael bin Aban al-Azdy informed us saying: Narrated to us Amr bin Shimr al-Ju’fy, from Jabir from Rafie’ bin Farqad al-Bajaliyy saying: I heard Ali bin Abi Talib [as] saying:
See you not, O people of Kufah? By Allah I have stricken you with the stick that I hit the idiots with, but I don’t see you ceasing, and I have stricken you with the whips I use for penal codes, yet I don’t see you behaving. The only thing left is my sword, and I know what will straighten you up by will of Allah, but I don’t like to resort to that with you.
What’s amazing about you and the people of Syria, is that their leader disobeys Allah, yet they obey him, while your leader obeys Allah, but you disobey him. If I say to you go forth to meet your enemy, you say the cold prevents us. Do you think your enemy does not feel the cold you feel? But (the fact is) you resemble those people whom the Messenger [saw] said to them: “Go forth in the cause of Allah” and their leaders said: “Go not forth in the heat” and Allah said to His Prophet: “Say: The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat if only they can understand”
[Ibn Hilaal al-Thaqafi, al-Ghaaraat, p.27:
(3) Shi’ites are the filthiest people on the face of earth:
[color=blue]
حدثنا محمد قال حدثنا الحسن قال حدثنا إبراهيم قال و حدثنا إبراهيم بن المبارك عن بكر بن عيسى قال حدثنا الأعمش عن عبد الملك بن ميسرة عن عمارة بن عمير أنه قال كان لعلي (عليه السلام) صديق يكنى بأبي مريم من أهل المدينة فلما سمع بتشتت الناس عليه أتاه فلما رآه قال أبو مريم قال نعم قال ما جاء بك قال إني لم آتك لحاجة و لكني كنت أراك لو ولوك أمر هذه الأمة أجزأته قال يا أبا مريم إني صاحبك الذي عهدت و لكني منيت بأخبث قوم على وجه الأرض ادعوهم فلا يتبعوني فإذا تابعتهم على ما يريدون تفرقوا عني [/color]
“Narrated to us Muhammad saying: Narrated to us al-Hasan saying: Narrated to us Ibrahim saying: - Also, narrated to us Ibrahim bin al-Mubarak from Bikr bin Issa saying: Narrated to us al-A’mash from Abdul-Malik bin Maysarah from ‘Amarah bin Omair saying:
There was a friend of Ali [as] by the nick Abu Maryam, from the Madinah, whom upon hearing about the disbursement of people away from him, he came to him. When he [as] saw him, he said: (Is that you) Abu Maryam? He replied: yes.
He [as] said: What brought you up here? He said: I did not come to you for a need, but I actually think if you were put in charge of this Ummah, you would do good. He said: O Abu Maryam, I am whom you have known, but I was (unluckily) given the filthiest people on the face of earth; when I call on them, they don’t follow me, and when I go along with what they want, they disburse away from me”
[Ibid, p. 44
(4) Liars Who Spit on Each Other’s Face: [color=blue]
17- وَ بِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ عَنِ الْوَشَّاءِ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ أَبَانِ بْنِ تَغْلِبَ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) كَيْفَ أَنْتَ إِذَا وَقَعَتِ الْبَطْشَةُ بَيْنَ الْمَسْجِدَيْنِ فَيَأْرِزُ الْعِلْمُ كَمَا تَأْرِزُ الْحَيَّةُ فِي جُحْرِهَا وَ اخْتَلَفَتِ الشِّيعَةُ وَ سَمَّى بَعْضُهُمْ بَعْضاً كَذَّابِينَ وَ تَفَلَ بَعْضُهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِ بَعْضٍ قُلْتُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ مَا عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَقَالَ لِي الْخَيْرُ كُلُّهُ عِنْدَ ذَلِكَ ثَلَاثاً [/color]
“ With that chain: from al-Wash-shaa’, from Ali bin al-Hasan, from Aban bin Taghlib saying: Abu Abdullah [as] said: How would you feel if the fight broke out between the two mosques, and knowledge withdrew back as the snake withdraw back to its hole, and the Shi’ites disunited (among themselves) and called each other liars, and spat on each other’s face? I said: May I be your ransom, there’s no good (to achieve) at that time. He said to me: All the good is then (and there) three times.”
[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.340]
(5) Shi’ites are Dishonest and of Bad Morals:
[color=blue]
5- عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ وَ غَيْرِ وَاحِدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ الْحَسَنِ جَمِيعاً عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أُورَمَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ يَسَارٍ عَنْ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ يُوسُفَ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ كَيْسَانَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ أَنَا مَوْلَاكَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ كَيْسَانَ قَالَ أَمَّا النَّسَبُ فَأَعْرِفُهُ وَ أَمَّا أَنْتَ فَلَسْتُ أَعْرِفُكَ قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ إِنِّي وُلِدْتُ بِالْجَبَلِ وَ نَشَأْتُ فِي أَرْضِ فَارِسَ وَ إِنَّنِي أُخَالِطُ النَّاسَ فِي التِّجَارَاتِ وَ غَيْرِ ذَلِكَ فَأُخَالِطُ الرَّجُلَ فَأَرَى لَهُ حُسْنَ السَّمْتِ وَ حُسْنَ الْخُلُقِ وَ كَثْرَةَ أَمَانَةٍ ثُمَّ أُفَتِّشُهُ فَأَتَبَيَّنُهُ عَنْ عَدَاوَتِكُمْ وَ أُخَالِطُ الرَّجُلَ فَأَرَى مِنْهُ سُوءَ الْخُلُقِ وَ قِلَّةَ أَمَانَةٍ وَ زَعَارَّةً ثُمَّ أُفَتِّشُهُ فَأَتَبَيَّنُهُ عَنْ وَلَايَتِكُمْ فَكَيْفَ يَكُونُ ذَلِكَ فَقَالَ لِي أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ يَا ابْنَ كَيْسَانَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ أَخَذَ طِينَةً مِنَ الْجَنَّةِ وَ طِينَةً مِنَ النَّارِ فَخَلَطَهُمَا جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ نَزَعَ هَذِهِ مِنْ هَذِهِ وَ هَذِهِ مِنْ هَذِهِ فَمَا رَأَيْتَ مِنْ أُولَئِكَ مِنَ الْأَمَانَةِ وَ حُسْنِ الْخُلُقِ وَ حُسْنِ السَّمْتِ فَمِمَّا مَسَّتْهُمْ مِنْ طِينَةِ الْجَنَّةِ وَ هُمْ يَعُودُونَ إِلَى مَا خُلِقُوا مِنْهُ وَ مَا رَأَيْتَ مِنْ هَؤُلَاءِ مِنْ قِلَّةِ الْأَمَانَةِ وَ سُوءِ الْخُلُقِ وَ الزَّعَارَّةِ فَمِمَّا مَسَّتْهُمْ مِنْ طِينَةِ النَّارِ وَ هُمْ يَعُودُونَ إِلَى مَا خُلِقُوا مِنْهُ [/color]
“From several of our Associates: from Sahl bin Ziyad and many others, from al-Hussain bin al-Hasan, all of them from Muhammad bin Awramah, from Muhammad bin Ali from Ismael bin Yasaar, from Othman bin Yousuf saying: I was informed by Abdullah bin Kaisaan from Abu Abdullah [as] saying:
I said to him: May I be your ransom, I am your servant Abdullah bin Kaisaan. He said: I know the linage, but I don’t know you. I said: I was born in the Mountain (area) and was raised in Persia. I got to deal with the people through doing business and other means. I (sometime) deal with a man and see that he enjoys a good appearance, good morals and abundant honesty. But when I investigate him, I find him to be of your enemies (A Sunni) . (On the other hand) I may deal with a man who has ill manners, dishonesty, and crookedness, and upon investigation, I find him to be of your supporters (A Shi’a) . How is that possible?
He said to me: O Ibn Kaisaan, Have you not known that Allah [swt] took a clay from paradise and a clay from hell and mixed them together and pulled this out of this, and that out of that? So whatever you may see of honesty, good morals and good appearance from those (Sunnis), is because of what have gotten into them from the clay of paradise, but eventually they go back to the clay they were made of. Likewise, whatever you may see of dishonesty, ill manners and crookedness from those (Shi’ites) is because of what have gotten to them from the clay of hell, but eventually the go back to the original (clay) they were made of.
[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi vol. 2, p. 4, al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol. 1, p. 229]
(6) The Shi'ites Are of Filthy Mouth & Filthy Attitude:
[color=blue]عنه، عن أبيه، عن عبدالله بن القاسم ، عمن حدثه قال : قلت لأبي عبدالله (ع): أرى الرجل من أصحابنا ممن يقول بقولنا خبيث اللسان ، خبيث الخلطة ، قليل الوفاء بالميعاد ، فيغمني غما شديدا ! وأرى الرجل من المخالفين علينا حسن السمت ، حسن الهدي ، وفيا بالميعاد ، فأغتم غما ! فقال: أو تدري لم ذاك ؟ قلت : لا ، قال :إن الله خلق الطينتين فعركهما - وقال بيده هكذا راحتيه جميعا واحدة على الاخرى. ثم فلقهما فقال: هذه إلى الجنة ، وهذه إلى النار ولا أبالى ، فالذي رأيت من خبث اللسان والبذاء وسوء الخلطة وقلة الوفاء بالميعاد من الرجل الذي هو من أصحابكم ، يقول بقولكم فبما التطخ بهذه من الطينة الخبيثة وهو عائد إلى طينته ; والذي رأيت من حسن الهدي وحسن السمت وحسن الخلطة والوفاء بالميعاد من الرجال من المخالفين فبما التطخ به من الطينة . فقلت: فرجت عني فرج الله عنك [/color]
"From him, from his father, from Abdullah bin al-Qaasim al-Hadhrami, from someone narrated to him the following saying:
I said to Abu Abdullah [as]: I may, on one hand, see a fellow man of our persuasion (Shi'a) with a filthy mouth, filthy attitude and of seldome honoring to appointments, which puts me into a great dipression. On the other hand, I may see a man of our opponents (Sunni) with good appearance, good guidance, and who honors appointments, and that puts me into a great dipression.
He said: Do you know why is that? I said: No. He said: Allah has created both clays, He then rubbed them - and he placed both his hands (palms) one one another- (Syed_Shia: take a due note) then He splitted them and said: This (clay distaned) to Paradise, and this (clay distaned) to Hell and I do not care.
Therefore, the filth of mouth, profanity, bad attitude and dishonoring of appointments from your fellow man who is of your persuasion, is because of the traces caused by the filthy clay, but he (eventaully) gets back to his (original) clay. As for the good guidance, good appearance, good attitude and honor of appointements from those opponents, is due to the traces caused by the (good) clay.
I said: you've relieved me, may Allah relieve you."
[Reported by al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol.1, p. 230, and by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 5, p.251
(7) The Wrath of Allah Befell Them: [color=blue]
عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ بَعْضِ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ مُوسَى ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ غَضِبَ عَلَى الشِّيعَةِ فَخَيَّرَنِي نَفْسِي أَوْ هُمْ فَوَقَيْتُهُمْ وَ اللَّهِ بِنَفْسِي [/color]
"Narrated Ali bin Ibrahim, from Muhammad bin Issa, from some of our associates, from Abul-Hasan Musa [as] saying:
Verily the Wrath of Allah befell on the Shi'ites, and He gave me the choice: Either myself or them, by Allah I shielded them by choosing myself."
[Reported by al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol. 1, p.260]
(8) Shi'a Men: Shameless & Jealousless:
[color=blue]وفي رواية غياث بن إبراهيم، عن أبي عبد الله (ع) قال: قال علي (ع): يا أهل العراق نبئت أن نسائكم يوافين الرجال في الطريق أما تستحيون؟ وقال: لعن اللَّه من لا يغار[/color]
"According to the narration of Ghiyaath bin Ibrahim, from Abu Abdullah [as], that Ali [as] said:
O People of Iraq, I was informed that your women date the men right on the streets, have you no shame? And he said: May Allah curse who has no jealousy."
[Reported by al-Barqi, al-Mahaasin, vol.1, p.204-205; al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 79, p.115
(9) Sign of the Shi'ites:
[color=blue]أَحْمَدُ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَسْبَاطٍ عَنْ بَعْضِ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ مَا كَانَ فِي شِيعَتِنَا فَلَمْ يَكُنْ فِيهِمْ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْيَاءَ مَنْ يَسْأَلُ فِي كَفِّهِ وَ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِيهِمْ أَزْرَقُ أَخْضَرُ وَ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِيهِمْ مَنْ يُؤْتَى فِي دُبُرِهِ [/color]
9- Ahmad from Ali b. Asbaat, from some of our fellows, from Abu Abdullah [as]: Whatever it may be, three characteristics cannot be found in our Shi'ites: (he) who asks (begs) with his hand, there's none among them who is blueish greenish, and none among them who is screwed in the rear.
[al-Kulainy, al-Kafi, vol.5, Ch: Who Lets (Others) to Screw Him, p. 551]
Also reported by Ibn Babawaih al-Qummi in his "al-Khisaal" Ch. Three Charateristics Cannot Be Found Among Shi'ites" p. 131, narration 137 with the following link:
Narrated to us Sa'd b. Abdullah, narrated to me al-Hasan b. Ali b. al-Nu'man, from Ali b. Asbaat, etc.
Also reported by al-Majlisi, Bihaar al-Anwaar, vol. 70, pp 306-307, narration 32.
[color=blue]حدثنا أبي قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، عن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن عدة من أصحابنا، عن علي بن أسباط، عن بعض أصحابنا ، عن أبي عبد الله(ع) قال: ما ابتلى الله به شيعتنا فلن يبتلى بأربع : بأن يكونوا لغير رشدة، أو أن يسألوا بأكفهم، أو أن يؤتوا في أدبارهم أو أن يكون فيهم أخضر أزرق[/color]
Narrated to us Sa'd b. Abdullah, from Ahmad b. Abu Abdullah al-Barqi, from several of our associates, from Ali b. Asbaat from some of our associates, from Abu Abdullah [as]: Whatever Allah may try our Shi'ites with, He will not try them with four (characteristics): That they be basta/rds, or that they beg with their hands, or that they be screwed in their rears, or that a greenish blueish be among them.
(Greenish Blueish is an idiom for a person who holds a great animosity twords others, usually a character of a person with a green or a blue eyes)
[reported by Ibn Babawaih, al-Khisaal, Ch. Four (Characteristics) Shi'ites Cannot Be Tried With, p. 224, narration 56]
[color=blue]حدثنا أبي قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله ، عن محمد عيسى بن عبيد، عن زرعة بن محمد الحضرمي، و محمد بن سنان ، عن المفضل بن عمر قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله(ع) يقول: ألا إن شيعتنا قد أعاذهم الله عز وجل من ست - إلى ان قال - أو ينكحوا في أدبارهم[/color]
Narrated to us my father, narrated to us Sa'd b. Abdullah, from Muhammad b. Issa b. Obaid, from Zar'ah b. Obaid al-Hadhramy & Muhammad b. Sinaan, from al-Mufaddal b. Omar saying:
I heard Abu Abdullah [as] saying: Allah has saved our Shi'ites from six (characteristics) ...down to his saying ... Or that they be screwed in their rears.
[Ibid, ch. Allah Saved The Shi'ites From Six Characteristics, p. 336, narration 8] nismo well done , you pretty much made up some pretty convincing bullshit Habib , i pray a camel rapes you in your sleep anyways , you want to talk about shia morals and strenght ? lets talk about the iran iraq war iran fought againt the world , iraq was loosing the battle even thou they were supported by all the arab nations and the states, they resorted to chemical warefare , didnt slow the iranian shias down. now when iraq invaded kuwait , both are majority sunni countries , guess who all turned against their brother , yes all the majority sunni countries like saudia and all . even thou iran should have been the first to jump in and kick the shit outta iraq with the help of the states and all the other arab nations , iran condemned it all. you talk about shias being basterds and shias being filty , guess who is supporting palestine? and lebanon and syria? they are not supporting only the shia population but the whole country who stands in the face of ameirca and israel and condemns the action of these wrong doers in iraq and palestine? watch the video of ahmadinejad in wahshington university giving his speech, which sunni scholar would dare such a feat? shias are more readily to accepts sunnis as their brothers and cousins , and they are the ones that will happily give any aid and support. they are the most tolerent people in the middle east. Habib Nismo, Although what you've presented is irrelevant and I totally disagree with, yet I was hopping that you stick to the topic and dare to refute what the "Infallible" has reported. All these narrations were reported from your "Infallibles" by your scholars in your books. I did not copy from a Sunni source to avoid biasness. So will you please clarify for us the intension of the "Infallibles", should I have misunderstood them? spoonman
I think the Iranian Sunnis like the ones in Sistan, Golestan or South don't agree with that statement. nismo
i have a close friends from that region in iran
and we ahve been friends since childhood
so i dont know what you people are talking about
and those verses , i have never ever seen this garbage, its all made up or its put out of context or its not translated right. i dont even care to waste my time to research on it i have better things to worry about.
just like the moive " FITNA "
instead of making a topic like sunni vs shia , and puting fingers on each other, someone should make a topic " sunni and shias " and find comon grounds for each other instead of differences ebonics can i just take the time to laugh my friggin head off at this:

wow.... just wow.
if shi'a were all the above,
what are the suni's for subscribing to ^^ that!!!
its 2008 now, and you listen to words narrated in that fashion! ebonics thank you habib for displaying how much of a spiteful hateful person muhammad was...... a true prophet would never talk like that about other people. ebonics
iraq only invaded kuwait because the deal was to protect them against iran for a fee... the fee wasnt paid.
kuwait said to sadam, "consider it a brotherly favour" - when saddam bore the brunt of iran's war that severely hurt iraq in every way...
it was justified, but kuwait had the money and the oil to turn america against him. spoonman
The Sunnis in Sistan and Baloochestan are very very pissed. They kill a dozen of travelers every now and then to express their anger. Can point you to news regarding this. freza good idea. I wonder what shafique thinks of this concept... freza [double post: apparently submitted twice due to forum error message] Habib
Ebonics, the post shows that you made your reply at 8:28 am. I would assume that you did not take your coffee at the time you posted your response. Now that you are awake, can you tell me what "Muhammad" are you talking about, and how did he come in the picture? Habib repeated Habib repeated Habib repeated Habib repeated Flying Dutchman Hold your horse Habib, we got you the first time. Habib
I am trying hard to lol
O well, When I posted them over two days, it was constantly giving me the error sign. :) Habib
Such are the words of people living outside this world. So much for Shi'i tolerance, I am going to ask you this: There are over 2 million Muslims (Sunnis) in Tehran, can you tell us if they have a single mosque of their owm, and where? shafique
I agree with the concept. In my first post in this thread I said I consider the Shia Imams to be important muslim personages and value their teachings. The split between Shia and Sunni on theological grounds took place a few centuries after the Prophet, pbuh, and what started as a political difference morphed into theological differences.
Theologically, I am closer to Habib than Sistani, but I do not agree with the animosity of the attacks or some of the specific attacks. What concerned me with Shia Islam (12er variety) was the central part that hatred played in their faith - the first 3 Khalifas and Aisha were almost swear-words for them. In this thread this animosity is returned to the Shia and it is ugly in my opinion.
In my discussions on Islam which included many different sects, on many core issues I found myself agreeing with Shia over some sunni sects.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics

calling people the filthiest people to walk the earth is no prophet-like quality... would you not agree? shafique
Unless it happens to be true :)
Look, all prophets have been accused of un-prophetlike behaviour. Jesus, for example, has been accused of cursing a fig tree for not having fruit, despite it not being fig season! That is un-prophetlike behaviour - and as Muslims we do not agree that a prophet of God would curse a tree in that way and therefore believe it not to be true.
Cheers,
Shafique Habib
ebonics: FYI only. A Hadith attributed to the Prophet [pbuh] must be preceded by a chain of narrators. This makes the Prophet [pbuh] the last man in the chain. Whereas in this case, the man you are talking about is at the begenning of the chain.
Furthermore, when a statement or a Hadith is reported by Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, you will notice that we always follow it with [Peace be upon him] to distinguish him from others sharing the name. Kabish? ebonics
a bit harsh?
and are they filthier than the pigs and monkeys? Habib ebonics, What you failed to understand is that these narrations were reported by Shi'a men from their own Imams. So, if their Imams describe their Shi'ites as such, who are we to say no? Give us a break, will ya? ebonics
i dont have a glossary of names of imams and mullas of different sects to make such a realisation.
i just ask questions :) shafique
'Like apes and swine' is a description in the Quran.
But for the really good stuff you need to look at the Bible - the OT has references to people eating excrement and drinking urine, and the NT has Paul calling Jews dogs. Jesus only calls people snakes (vipers):
Of course, I do not consider these types of verses to be the words of God and most (if not all) Christians would reject these verses.
Cheers,
Shafique MC
Yup that makes perfect sense :?...From what I understand this was not directed at what we consider Shi'ites today. Habib So what's the difference between today's Shi'ites and early days Shi'ites? lol. Normally, people start off as good, and with time they go astray. But with the case of Shi'ites, is it the opposite MC? ;) freza since when is cursing something out (not cussing of course) unprophet-like? someone should have told Moses. Silly Shafique. And dude, get with it, why would Jesus waste his time cursing a fig tree??? It was SYMBOLIC. get it? yah, shocking. Symbolism in the Bible, amazing ain't it? The fig tree was symbolic of Israel. Just like the nymphs in the Quran are symbolic of....what are they symbolic of again?
oh btw, when you quote from sources like the ones in the skeptics bible, it doesn't look good for a serious man like yourself. it would be more challenging for you to actually get a point across from a more established and serious source, don't you think? what next start quoting serious political analysis from the Sun "newspaper"?
Questions for Habib : don't you think you have more in common with the Shia than things you don't have in common?
what about that Quranic quote that some people constantly repeat: "no compulsion in religion" well the Shia are from your same religion, shouldn't you be more accepting of their differences? who cares about their differences, right?
Do you consider the Shia to have a different interpretation of the Quran than the Sunni? MC
No as in the Shi'ites they were talking about had nothing to do with the mainstream shi'ite today or back then. I mean seriously how would it even make sense for "their" imams to say those things.
Anyway, I'll be away for a week so enjoy... Habib
As I have stated before in this thread, the only thing we have in common with the Shi'ites are words & phrases per say, not their meanings and context.
To illustrate, the Qur'an says:
This Book , there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil). [2:2]
What I, and anyone with common sense, understand is that " This Book " refers to the Qur'an. For the Shi'ites, the Book refers to Ali. Thus, what they understand from the verse is: This Ali, there is no doubt in him, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
The entire Qur'an, for them, revolves on Ali and their Imams, whether or not the language bears such an interpretation.
I really want a Shi'i to point out one single thing we both believe in or practice identically. There ain't one thing for sure. nismo edited by mod freza nismo, it's cool that you disagree with Habib and all that, but if you can't find words in your vocabulary to express your disagreement except to use school boy cuss words then surely this isn't the place for you. freza very interesting, so there are issues of interpretation, of course, makes sense otherwise why would there be so much arguing here and on the ground. Not just small things, but big things, right? Maybe they view Ali as someone special because he led by example instead of by word only? nismo edited by Mod Nucleus edited by Mod It is not funny. :roll: Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Habib Nismo, you are just a typical Shi'ite that I wanted all to see. Thank you for eximplifying what I couldn't in a long post. ;) nismo edited by Mod arniegang Edit Notes Nismo, if you wish to take part in these discussions, would you please refrain from personal comments and using offensive language. Thank you Mod Habib
All the companions led by example, and all of them are our role model. As I stated earlier, we love all of them equally and indiscriminately. rudeboy can someone tell me when exactly did shiaism started to appear? I guess it was after the death of Muhammad(PBUH) and probably before the battle of karballa? Habib The seed of Shi'ism was planted by a Yamani Jew named Abdullah bin Saba' who appeared toward the end of Caliph Othman's ruling. He was able to assemble some low-lives trouble makers against Othman [ra] which resulted in his assasination.
The mob at the time tried to impeach Othman and replace him with one of three: Talha, az-Zubair or Ali. None of them really wanted the post. After the murder of Othman, Ali [ra], in particular, has strongly refused the post saying: I can better serve you as an advisor than as a leader. But eventually he was persuaded to take up the post. Now the mob has dissolved in the camp of Ali [ra] and Muawiyah [ra] in Damascus was demanding that justice be taken from the killers of Othman.
The first work of order for Ali as a Caliph was to impeach all regional leaders appointed by othman to calm down the political tension. It sure wasn't a good idea. Muawiyah [ra], being the ruler of Greater Syria for some 20 years, refused to step down until justice from the killers is taken, which eventually led to clashing between him and Ali.
When the two parties agreed to negotiate a truce and a political solution, some 20,000 soldiers from Ali's camp revolted in contest and broke away. Eventually one of them by the name of Abdul-Rahman bin Muljim assasinated Ali.
Ali's 1st son, al-Hasan, was elected to succeed his father. Seeing that his and his father's supporters (Shi'ites) cannot be depended on, he decided to step down and let Muawiyah [ra] be the Caliph.
Before his death, Muawiyah [ra] thought to prevent any future conflict errupting by vacum of power. After consultency, he agreed to install his son Yazeed as his successor (Note it wasn't his idea).
As soon as Yazeed was installed, the Shi'ites began to write al-Hussain, the 2nd son of Ali, encouraging him to come over to Iraq, where he will find much support to challenge Yazeed. Some 20,000 Shi'ites were counted as ready to fight with him. When al-Hussain [ra] migrated from Makkah toward Iraq with his family, Yazeed mobilized a force of 4000 men, all from Iraq, many of whom wrote al-Husain inviting him to come over. Eventually, the two clashed with each others and al-Hussain [ra] was killed in the battlefield. This was known as the battle of al-Taff in Karbala.
Feeling that they have let down al-Husain, the Shi'ites began to weap his killing and blame themselves for it. Among these people, a man by the name al-Mukhtar al-Thaqafi took on himself to revenge from every person participated in the killing of al-Husain. He claimed to be a Prophet, and was called ever since The Liar. By now the creed of the Shi'ites began to form and take a line differing from that of main stream Islam.
It took almost 200 years or so to develop the religion of Shi'ism, falsely attributed to Islam. A close investigation into the matter will show that this religion known as Shi'ism is actually a meatball of Zoroastriansim, Judaism, Christianity and other occultic religions foiled with Islamic terms and phrases.
And Allh knows best. rudeboy
so are you saying that it was developed 200 years after Islam? and do you any source to back your claims? any independant websites?? shaf you got anything to say on this?
If it was developed 200 years after Islam then how can Shias be muslim? I mean there isnt that much of a difference between shias and ismalis and boris etc.
And Islam was all about believing in one god, and that Muhammad was Gods last messenger and the 5 pillars of Islam. Do the shias have 5 pillars of Islam, do they believe in it? Do they also believe in the Quran? Habib There are many ideological notions in Shi'ism that developed over centuyries. Among these notions is 12 Imams. It was not known for early Shi'ites, nor do they have any authentic Hadith that proves any of their creeds. Note that when we demand them to present an authentic Hadith or a narration in this regard, we accept to resort to their own standards of classification. 1200 years or so have passed by, and the Shi'ites cannot come up with one single authentic Hadith. If a religion cannot prove its validity from its own sources, this religion is certainly not worth following. rudeboy
ok how about, "Islam was all about believing in one god, and that Muhammad was Gods last messenger and the 5 pillars of Islam. Do the shias have 5 pillars of Islam, do they believe in it? Do they also believe in the Quran?" Habib
The Pillars of Islam for Muslims as reported in Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan an-Nasa'i, Jami' at-Tirmithi:
Narrated Abdullah bin Omar [ra], the Messenger [pbuh] said: Islam is built on five (pillars): (1) The testimony that there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. (2) Performing prayers (3) Payment of Zakat (4) [Performance of] Hajj & (5) Fasting Ramadan. [Sahih al-Bukhari]
As for the Shi'ites, the first pillar is never mentioned in their traditions. Their Pillars are as following:
1- حَدَّثَنِي الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْأَشْعَرِيُّ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الزِّيَادِيِّ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ الْوَشَّاءِ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبَانُ بْنُ عُثْمَانَ عَنْ فُضَيْلٍ عَنْ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ بُنِيَ الْإِسْلَامُ عَلَى خَمْسٍ عَلَى الصَّلَاةِ وَ الزَّكَاةِ وَ الصَّوْمِ وَ الْحَجِّ وَ الْوَلَايَةِ وَ لَمْ يُنَادَ بِشَيْ‏ءٍ كَمَا نُودِيَ بِالْوَلَايَةِ .
Narrated Abu Hamza from Abu Ja'far [as] saying: Islam is built on five (pillars); (1) on Prayers, (2) Zakat, (3) Fasting, (4) Hajj, and (5) on Walaya (Allegiance).
Nevertheless, none of our pillars is identical to theirs:
Prayers: Muslims perform five prayers on their due time. The Shi'ites combine the 2nd & 3rd together, and the 4th & 5th together. Or as some of them do, combine all 5 prayers at the end of the day. Furthermore, for
Muslims, Friday Congrigation is mandatory, while for the Shi'ites it is not until their so-called Mahdi appears.
Fasting: Never did the Shi'ites, ever, joined the Muslims with their fasting on the initial day. Nor do they end the month with the Muslims on the same day. Often they begin a day or 2 later, and end a day or 2 later. Furthermore, Muslims break tthe fast right on the sunset, while Shi'ites break their fast about half an hour after sunset. While Muslims abstain from food & drink during fast, the Shi'ites permit smoking. Some of their scholars permitted only 3 cigarettes a day.
Zakat: Muslims pay 2.5% of their saving as alms to the poor, the Shi'ites replaced Zakat with the 1/5th of their earnings paid to their grand Ayatollas.
Hajj: Even Hajj, the Shi'ites do not join the millions of Muslims on the order of rituals, nor do they pray behind the Imam of the Sacred Mosque.
Their aims is not actually to perform the Hajj as much as visiting the graves of their Imams.
Status of Ali [ra]:
While Muslims indiscriminately rever & honor Ali [may Allah be pleased with him] as being one of the prominent companions of the Messenger [pbuh], the Shi'ites elevate him to the status of "God", as the Christians did with Jesus [as].
Their interpretation of the Qur'an reflects this extremism:
34- الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أُورَمَةَ وَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ حَسَّانَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ كَثِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) فِي قَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى عَمَّ يَتَساءَلُونَ عَنِ النَّبَإِ الْعَظِيمِ قَالَ النَّبَأُ الْعَظِيمُ الْوَلَايَةُ وَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنْ قَوْلِهِ هُنالِكَ الْوَلايَةُ لِلَّهِ الْحَقِّ قَالَ وَلَايَةُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ( عليه السلام ) .
باب فِيهِ نُكَتٌ وَ نُتَفٌ مِنَ التَّنْزِيلِ فِي الْوَلَايَةِ
الجزء 1، ص 418
Narrated Abdullah bin Kathier, saying: I asked Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq) about the [meaning] of Allah The Exalted statement: "Of what do they ask one another? About the great event" He replied: The great event is the Walaya (Allegiance). I further asked him about "In this case is protection only from Allah, the True, He is Best for reward, and best for consequence" (Cave: 44), he replied: Protection only from the Chief of Believers (Ali).
In so many verses of the Qur'an, we see the Shi'ites interpret the verses refering to Allah to refer to Ali, which imply that Ali is actually Allah.
That is why, Muslim scholars, for centuries, have warned against this cult, and considered them out of the real of Islam.
And Allah knows best. rudeboy ok do they believe in the Quran and what it says? MC rudeboy, I would advise to not take his word for it. He has an extremely bias point of view and I know a lot of what he says isn't true in the first place. Habib In reality, they do not believe in the Qur'an. They believe the version of the Qur'an we have today has been tampered with and distorted by the Companions. However, they were instructed by their infallible Imams, to read this Qur'an temporarily as it contains what is sufficient for them, until the real Qur'an is brought up by the Mahdi. While there are millions of Muslims memorize the Qur'an from cover to cover, including children 6 years of age and up, you will never ever find a single Shi'i scholar memorize it. In fact, Grand Ayatolla of Iran, Ali Khamana'i was quoted as saying: a student may graduate from the Houza (Religious School) and receive the title of Ayatolla without attending a single class for the Holy Qur'an. They firmly believe that when the Mahdi comes up, he will burn this version of the Qur'an and introduce the true copy that was written by Ali. So, if I may take this opportnity to call on any and all Shi'ites to name one single Ayatolla of the past or present who is known to be a memorizer of the Holy Qur'an. It will certainly be the news of the century. And Allah knows best. rudeboy
MC can you tell me whats their view on Allah, and Muhammad as being Gods last messenger, the 5 pillars and the Quran.
Do they believe in all of this? Habib
MC, in essence, you are saying some of what I say is true. This is great. Now point to what is not true, support it with evidence, and I owe you to refute your claim with evidences from your own sources. Isna't that fair enough? MC
I've said before that my knowledge is limited. So you can flex your muscles in front of someone else. It will be a while before I know enough anyway. So hopefully someone will come in soon enough, but don't see that happening anytime soon. Habib MC, i sure respect that in you. However, the intention is not about flexing muscles, rather to share knowledge. I am sure much of what I have said, you have no knowledge of, but that does not make it false. But when you get to know, you will then have no excuse before Allah to hold fast on such a religion. The thing with the Shi'ites is that they leave out their brains along with their shoes when entering a Husayniya, and take the word of the cleric for granted. If any asked for an evidence, he is immediately accused of being exposed to "Wahhabis" lol. What is even worse, is that these clerics abuse the Shi'ites by taking 20% of their earning, and top it off with using their women for "Pleasure", you can't beat it, can you?!! Subhanallah. At any how, we'll wait until someone with knowledge shows up :) May Allah guide us to what pleases Him, Amen. ruwan I am from Sri Lanka and spent five days in Dubai. One of my Sri Lankan friends told me that Dubai do not allow any Buddhist temples to be built here. Until I hear that I had a very positive view on Arabic people. Now in Sri Lanka, there are 7,800 Muslim mosques built by Arabic people. Do you think we are too tolerant as a group? I think Arabs should show the same tolerance to Sri Lankans as we show to Arabs in our country. outworldish Dream on Ruwan. Tolerance, you wont even be considered as a Human Being to these arabs. They consider everyone inferior to them. The arabs of today ( Specially the ones in UAE ) are not so different from the ones prior to Mohammad P.B.U.H arrival. Habib ruwan, The Muslims in Sri Lanka are natives, and therefore have every right to build their mosques. Therefore, when you succeed in converting a local to Budhism, come and demand for a temple. It is bad enough to have churches for the Chrtistians.



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