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Science vs Religion?


FAKESPIKE it was indeed. i bet all that law work paid off buddy. but I haven’t replied yet and wont get time till the end of this week finals you know. so ima have to get back to you posts because they require special attention equivalent to what you have showed in the matter.
Alvii Fatty Melon - Well Said !!! v:) Fatty Melon Religion is not there to answer every one of our questions. And, neither is science. Religion is there to help us through the emotional and spiritual side of life, and science for the technical. Religion is not, and never was, meant to be an alternative to science. Science and religion compliment each other, and are not supposed to become a choice between one another. For example, scientists believe in the Big Bang. Why could not have God caused it, which leading, by what science says, to earth being created? You can find quotes from prophets (and even in the Quran itself) which clearly state that in order for Islam to prosper, Muslims must be at their peak in the scientific sides of life as well. During the dark ages, Muslims (this is not excluding other religions) through the leadership of their religious leaders, did they only then begin to lead the world in discoveries and inventions. Religion did have its day, and it might once again, but like then, there are always these 'still' moments where faith falters and science takes over for a while. For Darwin's theory, I doubt it alot. One reason being is that there are many scientists who are claiming that the evidence we have is still not conclusive. Even Darwin, on his death bed began to doubt and question his own theory. Evolution, however, is not entirely tossed aside by religion. There is no complete rejection of it as we believe...but I won't discuss this, since I need to read up more on it There are simply too many theories that seemed to have been proven correct, just for another scientist to come along a hundred years later and prove them wrong. Similar to the whole 'the world was flat' problem back then. Me personally, apart from the obvious reasons for believing in religion, I do so also as a sign of respect for my culture and heritage. Many have died in the name of religion (the Crusades comes to mind) for us to just throw it all away. I also find alot of what is written in religion very moving and inspiring, something that you do not find in a biology book. Also I find that science tends to depend too much on coincidences. OH WELL THE BIG BANG WAS JUST A BIG FAT COINCIDENCE. You reach a limit until you then begin to question these millions of coincidence for everything that is unanswered in life. Is it also a coincidence how well the human race has turned out to be? Out of all the creatures? Why only us? What about else where? So, it is all just a coincidence that every tiny little detail in our lives just happened to work out for millions of years, without any fault along the way (no second big bang for millions of years? or second ice age?). I have witnessed many things for which there is no scientific explanation for (and I assure you all, these things are far too bizarre), . I will not discuss them, but to me, I see them as miracles (one specifically changed all my ways in dealing with religon). I did not dismiss science though. I just chose not to go with it for these incidents. Simple as that. Which is what people are doing for religon in opposite cases. For me, I believe our whole concept of how we live our lives is entirely predestined in every aspect. Who would have ever thought up of EVERY single little thing we do everyday (the non-technical things). Surely not science. Religion was there to guide us. Gives life a whole new meaning if you ask me. I would rather look forward to something after life, than to look forward to nothing at all. Religion never claimed to be the answer to everything. It said accept God for he has created everything. Never has it been mentioned that we must ignore science and just focus on God. You guys are taking it out of context. They are two different things, that people must learn to take advantage of AT THE SAME TIME, and not choose one over the other. Has anyone seen gravity? Has anyone seen atoms? Particles? Magnetism? 99% of science is theories. Never everlasting, always changing every couple of years. Half the time you don't hear about it, but scientific theories are being altered by the thousands every year.I bet if Jesus came down today and perfomed any miracle, science will just give his presence a fancy technical name, and it automatically becomes a theory to us. Scientists are always just satisfied with leaving theories as they are. Why can't those theories be religious related? Why can't religion be a theory? Doesn't some invisible force sound to you as far fetched as angels? But aren't angels a force? It just happens to be that science is the easier solution to accept. That is all. When science can show me these things right there infront of my eyes, when it can prove to me without a single doubt, then I will be satisfied... with science. But you see, how does that prove that religion is wrong? Completely different subjects. One should not depend on religion and ignore sicence, and vice versa. We should learn how to take the good from both. For those wondering what good have we gotten from religion? We have based our morals from it. Our entire law system is then based on these morals. The traditional finance systems, which we base ours from these days, is based on that, and so on... I do not toss science aside and completely depend on religion. I found a nice balance between them both (without being blasphemous towards my religion, despite what many believe). And I am satisfied enough to say there is good in both for me, and that at the end of the day, I know that if there is a religion (and most of you can't tell me that you do not believe there is at least a 1% chance of it being correct), then I have a better chance than others of getting rewarded. What do I have to sacrifice? 5 minutes daily to pray...hardly any effort if you ask me, for that 1% garauntee. krush emotions have to come into play when it comes to something that is close to your heart - what's the use of believing in something if there is no emotion involved? i would hate to continue this discussion if it were just about intellectual talk. on the flipside - getting into senseless and useless arguments and debates won't get anyone anywhere. it's not about proving who's right or wrong - it's about answering the original question. Andyba Can science coexist with religion or one of them must change to fit the other? Since there are different religions out there, everybody is welcome to write his thoughts about his own religion... Alvii It varies a bit but mostly yes it can co-exist, I m referring to Islam here... ignoring the Darwin theory of evolution ofcourse.. but then again i think all religions will ignore his theroy as we believe that GOD created man and we arent a bunch of monkeys ;0 biggi
it all depends on the religion. since different religions have defferent levels of tolorance for deveations from the fundementals of their laws and regulation. to be percise, islam can not co exist with anything but islam, however, christianity may be able to "co-exist" with some asspects of sicense. Alvii
How much do u really know abt Islam to come to that conclusion... one lil advise..if u dont know abt a subject SHUDDUP dont go around displaying ur ignorance.. :) FAKESPIKE biggi i agree with you point of view. for the sake of arguement i will mention that im muslim. alvii you know for a fact what he is saying is true. islam has no tollerence for anything but its self and posibly christianity and jewdism because there holy books. as you said it your self you ignore the darwining theory. ignore as in havent even considered it. im a muslim who believe in the darwin theory because it makes sense to me. Alvii ok....then as everything was evolved after the big bang and all (mind u, my religion accepts the BIG BANG ) where did the stars come from, the universe who created that by chance ... it all had to strart somewhere if u can find "where" it all started from??? the cell that made up for the amoeba?.... Its funny how everybody just casts Islam away because they are unaware of "other things" happening in the world are so brainwashed by the AMERICAN MEDIA...

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krush
we get taught not to ask questions ... just accept what is the 'obvious'. God made us intelligent human beings - to ask questions (and science does play a role in this) is an intelligent thing to do.
that said :wink: i'm a christian.
seeing things created out of a big bang does not make sense to me, fakespike. take a watch, break it into a million pieces, throw it into a jar and start shaking it .... when it all falls back into place, let me know. FAKESPIKE the world isnt a watch. its alive able to make decisions. american media? lol you just rant what you hear your parents say. everything in this world can be explained in terms of science. which is more then what i can say for religion where it finds defficulty explainning simple things. and when asked it says leave it its a matter of faith. and if you dare question you have commited a sin. for how dare you question it! so ppl fear it. and believe it. but some dare to question. those are the same kind of ppl who were the first christains and muslims. while some worshiped statues of stone. they dared and questioned it. and told them self i know life is greater then to be created by a statue. and as we evolve and grow and learn we know more. as for me i will continue to question. i leave nothing to faith i trust only my rational thinking. logic and commen sense. and every time i turned to science my questions have been answered and if i turn to religion its "a matter of faith" Alvii Amercian Media i was so pissed at everybody connering Islam at one side.. I have a brain i can think I dont need my parents doing that for me thank u ...we were spking abt religion lets not specify talk general!! FAKESPIKE your emotions are effecting your judgement you cant be partial about the matter if you feel so strongly about it. atleast admit to that. abs Well said Fatty
I was a skeptic ...
Prove it to me scientifically..and then i will believe.
Took me years to read as many books as I can.
10 years later I was still a skeptic.
Then I went to a church for the first time in my entire life.
The Holy Spirit came...bypassed my brain and went straight for my heart. I broke down and cried like a baby. Got saved..got baptized.
After that..there are still questions in my mind...but there is a firm answer in my heart. The name of my Lord,Jesus..and there is a Heavenly Father...The Creator.
You can go and argue all you want and never get an answer. BEcause you are probing in a very small area. God is bigger then science. It is something that HE created. We are like an ant on a oil painting trying to figure out if a painter did this.
Friends. God is real. He loves the humble but resists the proud.
Be humble ...get down on your knees and seriously..very seriously..ask God to reveal himself to you. Because he said "All who seek me shall find".
And I personally guarantee this. You get down on your knees and pray hard tonight. Something incredible will happen soon in your life.
But no guarantee it will be something good for start. But goodness is the final result.
Some important questions:
Who wants to go to Heaven?
How can you go to Heaven?
Who should you follow:
a)One who speaks of Heavenly things. Never went to Heaven but died on earth. Who said himself "have sinned"
b)One that came from Heaven, never sinned,left earth for Heaven while still alive and promises he will return to claim his people.
I am very very willing to help anybody with their search.
We are near the end.....not much time left.
P.S. Everything in the bible can be explained with science. Infact..the holy bible reveals secrets to modern scientists. john-dory Amm...you do realise of course that religion and science ARE the same thing.
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism...."
Albert Einstein abs Science is a law that God created. Its like things we humans do with tons of equipments..tons of people and books....tons of money...tons of retry. God can do them right in a breath or a word from His mouth. Fatty Melon It is quite obvious they are completely different things. The only reason people even put them in the same sentence, is because of the issue of the origin of man; scientists claim that religion rejects evolution...blah blah blah. Just cause Albert Einstein said that, does not make it a fact. sniper420 Einstein also said "All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree"
Liban Only those that know little of the One True God and His Teachings have the gall to claim that humans came from the ape.... abs Because einstein says it does not mean ..blah blah? But because Charles Darwin says it and its ok? And wht happens when Charles Darwin said that his theory is wrong and yet people still sticks to his theory of evolution. Fatty Melon...the most dangerous of all things is to have "little" knowledge about it. It makes one start putting in things that one presumes. It be better for you to research carefully all scientific findings about the bible and the quran before claiming something that has already proven itself over and over again. Start by doing a careful research on "The Big Bang" theory. Or "The Evolution of Man" or "The Age of Earth". If you truely understand these theories....you will start to see things the way Isaac Newton,Einstein,DaVinci...etc sees God Almighty. A friend visits Isaac Newton in his lab. one day and spotted a model of the universe on his table and asked: "Hey..who did that model? Its nice." Isaac: "Nobody..its just there." Friend:"Oh come on..somebody must have made it." Isaac:" You can't believe this simple model just happens to be there without a maker..and yet you believe that no one created the universe?" The friend left. And later called him a Heretic. Religion without Science is blind. Science without Religion is meaningless - Albert Einstein Liban Amen ABS... Speak the Word.... :) Pumpkin Escobar Ya know, religon, science, politics, that shit will kill ya! I have been reading about the Five Percenter Movement and for my money, they have a good foundation. I think we should see each other as god instead of looking at the cloud for help, forgiveness, redemption, etc. What happened to having faith in you fellow man? Pumpkin Escobar And it is not the American Media's fault for portraying Muslims in a bad light, it's other phucking psycho Muslims who fly planes into buildings fault. All religons have their psycho sects that portray them in a bad light in all media, Klu Klux Klan, Al Queda, etc. No one is blaming the entire Muslim community. America is a melting pot with all types of people from everywhere who believe all types of shit. I am sure if some psycho Jewish person caused 9/11 everyone would be happy, cause if it's one people to blame for everything all through history, it's the Jewish people. Why cant we just go back to hating Communist? I miss the good old days of hating the Red Commie plague!!!!! That could unite us all!!!!! Die commie scum!!!! krush too true :headbang: Liban Yeah whatever... America has been portraying us as villans years before the September 11 resistance attacks. Americans are becoming like the Jews and their holocaust with all that talk of 9/11 and how they are "victims". Also you lack of beleif in God is regrettable and I hope you find the light one day and the sense and decency to think before you speak. ahamed iguess we are talking general about religion & science, not criticising Islam or any other religion. " they made vaccines, they made medicines, one day they made a human cell. But what they couldnt make is a life in the human cell " This is what it is, science cannot make life. Life can be made only by GOD. Any comments ?? Liban God can make a take life away as He wishes. Everything we do in life, and in this case science or medical science, is because it is God's will. If God wills us to find a cure for cancer then we will, if God wills us to improve stem cell research and developement and one day cure all diseases, then by God we will.... God created us and by default our brains. The brain of man was responsable for creating many of the good things we have in the world today and only God is to thank for that. What about the bad things in life? Like war or genocide (of the arabs worldwide)??? Well thats the devil's work. The battle between good and evil is eternal. Despite the fact that God created us, we remain human. Thus we remain weak if our faith in Him is weak and weakness is the conduit that the devil uses to poison our hearts and minds and drive us to jealousy, rage, violence, treachery, decadence and all other negative human emotions and acts. But lets get back to the issue at hand. Science is God's doing and the Holy Quran (God's Last True Book) supports science and encourages its development. But there is a "caveat emptor" problem, my friends, and that is in unethical science. We should never stray from enlightened science. Unethical science, such as, developing a human clone or a new form of degenerative disease is evil in the works. Its the devil using what God created (our minds and souls) and manipulating it for evil. Those scientists without faith and who haven't yet been saved by God's message are at risk. We must help them and guide them towards the Book. Pumpkin Escobar I liked this subject and wanted to revive it out of the depths. Chocoholic Ok Pumpkin, then revived it shall be, you know me by now always one for pouring oil in the water - hehehe! I think science and religion can go hand in hand, but there are gaps, for example what people cannot explain through science they often tend to use religion to explain what science cannot. But there are some things that cannot seemingly be expalined by either, such as things of the supernatural world. And why I've been around so bloody long! And I have to reply to a comment in an earlier post about there being no evidence or example of gravity, ok throw any object into the air and watch it fall back to the ground, er an example of gravity maybe. Nik Ok I'm gonna turn that on its head...and this might be a more controversial view....but religion is all the science we don't want explained or can't be explained...am not saying religion doesn't exist, but why can't God and science go hand in hand? Science is nothing but natural law...man's only role is observation in it, and whoever created man is also responsible for all of science obviously...and I think all humans are in need of some kind of oblivion, we don't want everythin explained (and well additionally its not possible either to unfathom all mysteries), but at the same time we don't want to be totally ignorant (our egos wouldn't allow that)...so we try to figure out 1% of natural phenomena, and call it science and feel smug about it, leaving the rest to faith, superstition, luck, fate, serendipity etc ...coz if we know everything, where would the charm be in life? Still the not knowing leads to insecurity, and thats where religion/faith steps in, and provides a balm for the angst Pumpkin Escobar Damn good point. I was reading a book about the universe as we see it so far, and scientist are torn between two theories that can explain Life, the Universe, and Everything!! One being the theory of relativity-which deals with large mass and distances, the other being Quantum Physics-dealing with things on the atomic level and beyond. Now both methods hold true in there own realms, but they conflict with each other. So it would seem to me that religion and science dont neccesarily have to agree to be correct. Chocoholic Nice train of thought Nik. Ahhh Quantum Physics, very interesting science. Pumpkin what book you reading out of interest? abs Ladies and gentlemen. Imagine God's knowledge is the size of the universe. Now imagine the consolidated knowledge of all mankind on earth ..the size of a coin. Science is but one of the action of God. Everything can be explained with science. Its just that we human are not as clever as the God Almighty. And we can never be. Science and Religion does not go in the same catogory. Religions are beliefs with no 100% scientific proofs of what its talking about. Christianity is not a religion. Its a relationship with God. God snapped His finger, and the Big Bang occurred. Now lets look at the creation of the universe. All the stars/planets are rotating..all the time. Now look at the milky way. And again all the stars and planets and revolving. And if you trace ALL their orbit and shifts over centuries. You will realise that A L L the stars and planets ROTATED out from 1 single point in the universe. Make it simpler, it means everything in the universe came from 1 point. Because in the beginning, it was empty. And at this point, there is 1 MASSIVE energy source. Stable as can be. And it just sits there...in its own "super stable condition". Nothing happening....nothing at all. And it sits there....just sits there....sitting.....sitting...for "billions and zillions and whatnotlions of years. Stable. And then suddenly. B A N G !! <--(typing can only get so far..but that stands for "mother of all bangs") And the next thing you know...space dust settles and planets and stars are born. Now. What caused this "BANG!" There was nothing else in the universe except that point of energy. And according to Einstein, all enegry stays at its state until another form of energy comes into contact with it and changes its direction,state,temperature...etc. God knows. Pumpkin Escobar That is still in debate. I am reading a book by Stephen Hawking called "A brief history of time" It is very good at explaining some of these theories and showing that mankind still has so far to go. Liban Read the Quran throigh the mind of a pragmatist scientist and you will quickly realize that the Quran is a book of science. Everything we have learned scientifically is written in it centuries ago. And what is to come in science is also written there. Our human minds just do not comprehend it yet. abs Pumpkin dude.
Time to cross over.
Heres what your beloved Stephen Hawkings said:
Quote:
Stephen Hawking : "It is difficult to discuss the beginning of the universe without mentioning the concept of God. My work on the origin of the universe is on the borderline between science and religion, but I try to stay on the scientific side of the border. It is quite possible that God acts in ways that cannot be described by scientific laws, but in that case, one would just have to go by personal belief."
When asked whether he believed that science and Christianity were competing world views, Hawking replied, "...then Newton would not have discovered the law of gravity." He knew that Newton had strong religious convictions.
A Brief History of Time makes wonderfully ambiguous statements such as, "Even if there is only one possible unified theory [here he's talking about the unification of quantum mechanics with an understanding of gravity], it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?"(p. 174). I love that statement.
Hawking pokes fun at Albert Einstein for not believing in quantum mechanics. When asked why he didn't believe in quantum mechanics, Einstein would say things like, "Well, God doesn't play dice with human beings"(p. 56). Hawking's response is that God not only plays with dice, He sometimes throws them where they can't be seen.
The first time I read A Brief History of Time, for the first 122 pages I thought, "This is a great book; Hawking is building a splendid case for creation by an intelligent being." But then everything changes and this magnificent cosmological epic becomes adulterated by poor philosophy and theology.
For example, he writes, "These laws may have originally been decreed by God, but it appears that he has since left the universe to evolve according to them and does not now intervene in it" (p. 122). The grounds on which Hawking claims "it appears" are unstated and what happens is that a straw God is set up that is certainly not the God of Biblical history. What follows is a curious mixture of deism and the ubiquitous God of the gaps.
Now, lest anyone be confused, let me state that Hawking strenuously denies charges that he is an atheist. When he is accused of that he really gets angry and says that such assertions are not true at all. He is an agnostic or deist or something more along those lines. He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism.
One of the most famous and quoted statements in the book is, "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator [the cosmological argument]. But if the universe is really completely self- contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?"(pp. 140- 1). Pumpkin Escobar In a hundred years, we will find out that we are just part of a elaborate version of alien "Sim City" Sit back and enjoy the chaos :twisted: Chocoholic Ah I thought it might be something like that. Stephen Hawking is a genius, a magnificent mind tragically housed in a broken body. Chocoholic I've started doing some research into this subject and it's truly fascinating. You have the religious views and the humanist views which make very interesting reading. One of the pieces I've read talks about the Universal laws through which the world and universe works i.e. Cause and effect. For every event that takes place, there must be some sort of catalist to put it into motion. Take the creation of the world: Either started by some creative design by a higher being to evolve into the world ew know today. Or A product of natural evolution within the universe it's, in that all the elements were present at the correct time for the creation of the world. Either way the result is the same. abs The single point of plasma energy that existed before time was absolutely stable for zillions of years. Just like you say, all motion/effect need some kind of outside energy to be present and interrect with it. When the single point plasma energy existed, there was nothing else. Nothing but space with no air..no particles...just..nothing. Moses: "What is your name oh mighty one? If the Pharoah asks me who is my God, what do I say to him?" God:" Why do you ask my name? I am what I am. I am the Alpha and the Omega. Go tell him "I AM" sent you. Now go set my people free." Liban God was here from the time before the begining of time and will be here till beyong the end of time. He is enternal, He all all knowing, He is all powerful, He is God. Pumpkin Escobar Look up the "Chaos Theory" It is pretty interesting. I dont think it matters who is right, just as long as we wonder why. "Why" is the greatest word ever, that question separates us from the beast. Just the fact that man has a hunger to want to know more than what meets the eye is wonderful. It seems to be our greatest strength, but it could mean our undoing also. Fun isnt it? :) Pumpkin Escobar
Quarks, antiquarks, positrons, gravitrons.
There existed a singularity of mass before the universe was created.
In theory............
God bless science!!!!!! :) Liban
God created us to have reason. With reason comes the power to question and ask why. But that stops when it comes to His teachings.
Look at the human mind, it is a work of art... Soubhan Allah lilli khalakna (Glory to God our Creator)... sniper420
I read the book when I was in grade 9. He is real genius. It quite takes time to next dimension. abs Jesus said: "Its not what goes into a man that makes him unclean but what comes out of him." By saying so..Jesus has declare all food clean. And there is no proof of Him Not eating pork either. He has never specifically ban pork. So I don't know where Muslims got it from. However, I do know of 1 instance whereby Jesus cast out a legion of demons from 1 man's body. The demons asked Him why was He so early in destroying them and that its not time yet. Jesus said He was not here early to destroy them as the time is not due. He commanded the demons to leave the man and ordered them to go into a flock of nearby pigs. The herd of pigs then went crazy and ran into the lake and all drowned. And if you are taking this story in the wrong way..you'd think all Pigs have a demon in them. lol...for cos not. Or I'd be one too... It is true that there are certain bacterials found only in pork. But scientists has already confirmed that is no worse then walking by the road side and breathing in the car fume for 30secs. Pork is the sweetest meat on earth. And please don't call pigs unclean. They happen to be one of the cleanest animal in the world. They roll around in mud to keep themselves cool. Many very rich women in the world will pay alot just to roll in mud themselves. So think about it. You don't see pigs with pimples do you? And also...don't call unclean what the Lord has made clean. And in the old testament, God himself tasted some wine and He said: "Wine is Good." I will find that scripture for you. And infact, He also said something about sex too. I think He said its good too...but let me get back to you on that. But take note that that is only for married couples. All you have to do is thank God for the food you receive..and you can swallow cyanide pills and still be OK. But take heed...do not test the Lord. It only works if you take it accidentally or someone else is trying to poison you. Saying the "Grace" is a life and death matter. Peace and grace to you all. abs Well...after saying so much about science and theories of men...its time to do something better. God said:" Seek and you shall find." So lets ignore all the science and move into the supernatural realm. God's promises never changes. If you ever wonder why we are here...is there a God.....is there life after death..its easy to find out. Since HE said "Seek and you shall find" ..Lets all seek. Pick one night....get down on your knees and talk to God. He is the Lord. Call on Him and say this: Hello God, I hear so much about you. And today I heard from someone You said:"Seek and you shall find." You said shall..not maybe..but shall. So I ask of You, Mighty God. Show me the way. I want to believe that there is life after death and that you promise us paradise. I bring myself before you now...I am Yours. Lead me to the Light. Help me find You. Give me the directions. Dear Lord,please hear my plea and have mercy on my soul. I now invite you into my life." Something like that..ofcos you can say it in your own words. Just remember..its "God"...."I want to know".....please show into my life." You have to be convicted..you have to be really really sincere. And thats the hardest part. And if you can do this...I GUARANTEE you. Something WILL happen. Maybe not immediately..BUT IT WILL! And you will start to see the Light. I hesitate to add...many Christians have been Christians for life and never saw the light becos they went about it the wrong way. You MUST have the Holy Spirit in you to feel a change. And when you have invited the Holy Spirit to come into you...He will never...ever..leave you. He will show you God. The Holy Spirit IS God. May God look upon you with favor. Amen. Liban Abs, homosexuality is a sin, so the first thing sniper420 needs to do is seek forgiveness from God and then repent and change his ways... Right now he is playing right into the hands of satan... sniper420 Yeah I am asking the satan to perform a good deed by asking him to show the straight path to straightness and teach you homos*xuality is a sin.... :lol: abs Fun is a sin???? I will have to go ahead and disagree on that. Christians live a fun life. We can do anything we want as long as we "Love our neighbours." As long as we believe Jesus is THE Son of God. I seriously don't believe God created us so that we can be an unhappy bunch. We are allowed to party...to drink wine....to have a wife and make sweet love to her. We are allow beautiful cars that the Lord blesses us with. We are allowed beautiful clothings. God IS the Ultimate creator. He loves to create. And I don't think He is EVER gonna stop creating. And it will please Him to no end if we humans can enjoy and praises God for the wonderful things that He has created and WILL create. We Christians do what we like but are very sensitive to sin because of the Holy Spirit in us. We are actually allergic to sin. When I was touched...overnight..I could not swear anymore. Not an "F" word could escape my mouth. And I used to swear like a sailor. Fun is good. Liban Fun is not sin.... H0m0$exuality is sin... The word was modified... PS - I, as a Muslim, agree with most of what you said except when it comes to who Jesus is, drinking alcohol, and (even if you didn't mention it) eating pork. Also you know there is no proof that Jesus ate pork for he was a Hebrew and it is forbidden by Hebrews. So technically as Christians should try and follow Jesus, they should eat that disgusting meat either... Liban God encourages married couples to have $ex... The Quran says it many times. A healthy sex life helps a healthy marriage.. Certain acts are forbidden like sodomy but all in all passionate, erotic, arousing, exciting $ex is encouraged... Jesus was born Hebrew. Jews don't eat pork. So I doubt he broke the rules of his own people being as he was put here by God to do His bidding... I disagree with God drinking alcohol. For one, He doesn't exactly have a mouth.... :) And if pigs are clean, why are then the only animals that will eat anything even their own shit??? Dogs smell each others asses and we consider them dirty animals that are not to be allowed in a house and are to be used for defensive purposes - hence gaurd dogs outside... Chocoholic Everyone is entitled to have fun. Pigs are great creatures and they only eat meat and other horrible things because that's what man has fed them in capitivity and it's now a banned practice the world over. Dogs are also great, they are not dirty and just as horses will go nose to nose and breathe in the breath of one another to get to know another animal so dogs to the same, just not in such a nice way. People should be allowed to live their life as they see fit, as long as it's not hurting anyone else, what's the point of living if not to enjoy life. sniper420
PIggs big piece of shit in the face of the earth, I have been to big farms many times and I saw if they are given grass , they always go for thier shit. I hate those skunky creatures. And yes Liban called Jesus a Hebrew lol > Hebrew is a language not a race! And abs, Jesus only asked to have s*x only after marriage and not to commit adultry or fornicate. He also asked not to stare at women with lust which unfortunately or fortunately 90% of the christain world fails really terribly. And one funny thing I noticed is that ur posts fro S*x changes to fun, that really fun seeing. :lol: Chocoholic Hey, I used to have a friend that had a pot bellied pig as a pet, it was great fun, they're really cute. And my friend did you know that pigs have a greater sense of smell than dogs? That's why the french use them for sniffing out truffles, and certain organisations are now training the porkers to sniff for bombs and stuff, that would be a kick in the arse for you - sniffer pigs - hahahahaha Liban Pigs prefer eating shit to anything else... I have also been on a farm with pigs and the farmer showed me this pure fact. They are dirty animals and are really really unsanitary... Hence the expression "being a pig" means "being disgusting".... Also the squeal they make, thats so annoying.... I like to torture pigs.... And no, not everone is entitled to have $ex... if you are not married then you ARE NOT ENTITLED whatsoever... None of the prophets said that yes, go get laid, have orgies.... Chocoholic Making love to the special person in your life is the most fantastic thing. Like I said before, not everyone believes you have to have a piece of paper saying you 'belong' to someone else to have a committed relationship, it's personal choice. Plus the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians were big fans of orgies and it was normal for men to have relatinships with other men before they found a wife, and this was thousands of years ago. Chocoholic Plus my grandfather used to run a pig farm so don't lecture me on that! I like them, I've seen them not in farms - so there! :tongue1: Some people think eggs cured in wee is a delicacy, does that make them disgusting too! Some people drink wee to cleanse their own bodies, I suppose they are gross too! Most animals eat poop, normally to get nutrients they're missing from their diet, does that mean they're all disgusting?! Hippos, Rhinos and elephants also roll around in mud to keep cool in the sun and to provide a protective layer on their skin against biting bugs, I suppose they too are all disgusting. Liban
First Paragraph - You are correct if that person is your spouse only
Second Paragraph - That "peice of paper" as you call it is a right given to you by God. Going outside such rules makes one a sinner and condemns him/her to hell
Thirs paragraph - And that makes it right? What about cultures that cannibalize humans? I suppose it is OK too? And how about people that screw animals? Is that fine too? Liban
1) Pigs are gross
2) You can eat eggs dupped in piss all you want... It is gross
3) You can drink your own piss till hell freezes over... It is gross
3) Yes eating feces is disgusting
4) They are animals, its their way... And yes it is disgusting... Chocoholic I've worked with or had different animals all my life, and I can truthfully say that some people are below animals. I have nothing but absolute disgust and contempt for 'human beings' who will cause harm to innocent creatures. But I'm thankful they're lots of people like me who'll do the right thing who'll show compassion and understanding to any species, that includes homosapians. Everyone else will get what's coming to them in the end. Liban Animals are God's creatures... While we may find some undesirable or ugly or disgusint, we as God's servants are forbidden of mistreating or killing His creatures (unless we kill the beast for our own food)... Those that do ill with His creations, will get whats coming to them... abs
Yea...I said that too. I said only married people.
Actually....90% of man. Not just Christian world.
I do that too. How can you possibly not check out an extremely beautiful and s3xy lady? How can you!?
But then again. GOd knows man are like that...thats why ALL fall short of the glory of GOd.
And really Liban..God made everything..and created man in His own image...He made galaxies...made sea creatures.....made the sun and the moon....made monkeys that was mistaken for human....made pigs...and you said that He does not have a ..mouth?
Adam was created in God's image. Adam looks exactly like God..(without that glorious nature). I am pretty sure He has a mouth.
God visited Adam after he was cast out of Eden. Eve made bread for God. God drank wine. Its hard to do those things through your nose.
God loves us because we look like Him. I am sure He does not want to live with "creatures" that looks different from Himself.
Jesus is Jew. And you have not evidence He did not eat pork.
He ate and drank on Sabbath. He drinks with prostitutes and tax collectors.
Thats the Old testament for ya.
God said:" Don't say unclean..what I have made clean."
He said this to Peter when He told Peter:" Get up, kill..and eat."
Showing him animals that was formally said to be unclean.
And most animals do eat their own droppings. Most..
Chicken is probably one of the worst.
But seriously now, most of the vegetable we eat are fertilised by the same poop. Poop rocks!
Pooping is a process made by God. Dungs and droppings is one of the most profitable commodity in farming. You go to any garden shop and check out how much a pack of crap costs these days.
The same crap used to fertilise that rose you put in your wife's hair.
But anyway...we do not eat the crap on the pig. We eat the meat thats washed. And if you tell me that crap is inside that meat..then you should stop eating vegetable and many other kinds of meat because they all have it inside.
God said everything in the world is made for you. BUT. Do not abuse them.
St. Paul said: "You can do anything that does not result in sin. (Harming of another man or disobeying God). You can do anything . But if what you do causes other to stumble in their faith, then you should not do it.
For example: Eating food that was used to worship fake gods. Because you know that that god does not exists and therefore it was not a worshipped item. But if you eating this infront of a man that is weaker in faith..you causes him to stumble and therefore, you should not.
Thats why my mum always ask me:"Why are you eating the food I used to worship the "oddess of mercy"when you are a Christian?"
and I answered: "Because this god don't exist. You worshipped nothing."
That normally drives her nuts. Pumpkin Escobar You take what you read in the bible to be completley true? You are simpleminded abs, but very articulate. How can you apply a text written by MAN centuries ago, to life today? So Moses lived for 900 years? I think it will be blind fanatics like yourself that will bring about the "End of Days" as Liban puts it. The Truth is a lie abs The simpleminded one is yourself, Pumpkin. You have no clue about what science is do you? And "NO". I do not take everything in the bible literally. I research and then will find out what they are. Let me give you advise on how you should go about researching and thinkning things through. Heres one to start. Why do man die? What causes man to age? What causes wrinkles on some and yet some do not have them? Start with those..then we talk. By then I am pretty sure you will start to see things my way and not think I am some gullible fella that takes the bible literal. Bible is the Word of God. Its ALL true. It cannot be 99% true..neither can it be 99.99% true. If its 0.001% untrue..I will throw the bible into the dustbim and call this whole experience my imagination and move on with life. It is 100% true. Pumpkin Escobar Your life is a waste, it was written by a man, and passed down by other men, rewritten, changed because of politics, losted, and re-rewritten. Look beyond....then we'll talk abs oops..double msg. abs I was just like you, Pumpkin..just like you. But 1 little different between you and me, is that I actually go out and find out. Its alright if this all is fake. But if its real, dude...you think about it. And it is particularly so because I KNOW its true. "During the last day, not all that says to me :"LORD ,LORD!" will enter heaven." - Jesus Christ It is also a fact stated in the bible ..many will go to hell. God has His own plans for everyone of us. Peace Pumpkin. PS. The Bible was written by man. Guided by God. Because the things in the bible cannot be foretold by man. The possibility of getting one presumptious statement to become true is 1 to 100 zillion. Let alone ALL to be accurate. The Holy Bible IS like tomorrow's newspaper. God bless you all and have mercies on your souls. Amen. Liban Curious about something Pumpkin. Why is abs life a waste simply because he beleives in something that I tend to agree with a decent percentage of? I am not attacking I am just wondering... Also, I wouldn't think that abs is an extremist. Sure he deeply beleives in his faith... I don't see anything wrong with that. I am not necessarly defending abs and blasting you at all buddy, I am just kinda in disagreement that he is an extremist. He is simply a verrrrrrry religious Christian :) sniper420
Yeah God did fax u his photo eh?

Lol this point u made was hilarious. Sunlight is required for photosynthesis , does that mean we are eating sunlight . NO! Similarly plants only takes in some ingredients from poop for it's growth. And BTW PIG's poop contains harmful bacteria which doesn't die even after burning on high temperature and yes, pig's poop is more disgusting than chick's poop ( i meant hen :P ) sniper420
Yeah an extremist Christain guy checking out a sexy lady. " Yo sexy lady, I love ur flow.... :lol: Chocoholic
Well I'm going straight to hell then! :twisted:
Marriage doesn't mean anything anymore, with half of all marriages ending in divorce, what's the point. If you're lucky enough to find one person to spend the rest of your life with then fine, but changes in society make it very difficult. Personally unless I find that one true person, I can't ever imagine myself staying with just the same person - boooorrrring! Chocoholic Here's a point for you! How come it's fine for Muslim men to have upto 4 wives? That for me goes against the sanctity of marriage and is hardly monogamous is it? Why shouldn't a woman have 4 husbands? Liban
Interesting that you ask this question. I am happy you did.
You see back in the day before the rise of the Prophet Mohammad and the teachings of Islam, the Arabs were a very different people than the ones of today....
There was abuse and sin all over... One of the sins was men having women as concubines and sex slaves... The allowance of 4 women to a man was quite a revolutionary concept back then for the early men who accepted Islam because it cut the number of women they could be with hundred fold... There is a catch to this allowance. The man must be able to treat all his wives equally, love them equally, cherish them equally, treat them equally, basically treat them as if they were one person. We humans are not capable to doing this properly, and God in His infinite wisdom knows that so this 4 woman allowance is basically a law whose tenats cannot be followed by a mere man. No man can be as pure of heart and soul as the Prophet Mohammad. No man can be as great and as loving and the Prophet Mohammad. Peace be upon him. God is Great. Chocoholic Still doesn't really answer the question, you kinda side stepped it. For a man to have 4 wives, just means he can still get in on with more than one woman and it's acceptable. To love and cherish just one person, is far harder, shows much more commitment, both emotionally and physically. Men should all become slaves to woman kind, but then you'd never keep up. Liban You are incorrect. This 4 wives is a kind of test put forward by God Himself which indirectly shows its impossible to engage in polygamy and be fair in equal treatment of all partners. Pumpkin Escobar Exactly! Pumpkin Escobar I'm not attacking abs or anybody, just playing the devil's advocate........ :twisted: Liban Never really undersood the enlish expression of Devil's advocate... Nik
If I remember correctly, its originally a religious term interestingly enough...when someone was up for sainthood (canonization), there would be a formal discussion where the reasons in favour of the candidate would be presented by an official...another official would present a counter argument, not necessarily believing in them, but for the purpose of testing the strength of the claims and the postulations made by the other official, thus serving an important role in validating them...the guy presenting the counter claims was known as the devil's advocate...but now it just means anyone who presents a counter argument simply for the purpose of validating the argument in favour of something....to see if such claims hold up in the face of opposition....good way of deductive reasoning I suppose Liban Cool... Thanks! 8) sniper420
well said! HOLY MOTHER. Me , Pumpkin and Liban seemed to agree on one thing for first time! It's an omnious sign! :? abs I totally agree with the photosynthesis post, Sniper. That is actually the point I was driving at. And as for that pig bacteria that won't die...dude. ..I eat tons of Pork and I am probably stronger and healtheir than you. But ofcos we don't have to have a challenge. I am just saying we all know its there...but its not big enough to totally ban eating pork. I also don't understand the 4 wives thingy. For me personally...I only have enought love for my God and 1 wife. And then later on I have to share the same love with my children. Some Arab man made all this up just so he can get more "honey". But I must say....having 4 wives means you can watch your soccer game in peace while the 4 of them go chat and have tea among themselves...LOL Liban
1) Pig bacteria won't die. Just because you are strong and healthy on the outside doesn't mean much. I know smokers that are strong and healthy but does it make their habit good for them?
2) Some Arab man made it up to get more honey??? :angryfire: OK, I dunno why you insult God, the Prophet, Islam and myself. But I explained it many many times in my posts as to the origins of the 4 wives issue. It was God that spoke through His messanger, the Prophet Mohammed and laid out the rules pertaining to this issue.
The 4 wives issue is being blown out of proportion. I explained it enough and will not go any further. :hmph: sniper420
well which is betta having a wife or a whore? Many ppl in the west have mistresses that's the reason of high divorce ratre and many ppl in the east dont have more than one wife. being a wife she is entitled to have many rights unlike the whore or mistresses. And u have to see those days the woman population was higher than male cos males used to go to wars and all that crap. As any religion conditions apply. And yeah Liban just saying God said doesnt answer the question. For us humans we have to provide logical reasons. Pumpkin Escobar WOO HOO!!! GO PORK!!!!! :D abs God said it and thats what He meant us to obey. Well sorry Liban....I guess I must have missed that 4 wives explaination. Didn't mean to insult your religion...its just not in our Book :) I just find it unfair to the female population. I believe God is fair to both male and female and just...mm...can't....understand... :? Liban
Thats cool man... To put it in context, women were treated below the status of shit back in the day. Some where buried alive for disobeying their fathers or husbands or brothers!!!! :shock:
This was seen as revolutionary especially making polygamy next to impossible because nobody, no human, can respect the letter of the Islamic allowance of 4 wives in terms of equal treatment. So thats why 99% of Muslims just have monogamy. sniper420
Well have a look in the Western trend of treating women. I bet By JOVe 79% of marride males here have mistresses or had s*x outside their marriage compared to 38% or so females. That itself shows that we males tend to be polygamous than females. Have alook on the contests like Miss World, Miss universe etc which is like bidding the price of ox in cattle market from Eastern point of view. Is there any thing called Mr World or Mr universe? If it exists it's not so famous as the female ones. That itself proves that men on average are more lustful than females. Pumpkin Escobar Science vs Religion right??? So lets say we make contact with another lifeform from outer space, how do ya'll think the different religions wuold cope with that? sniper420
We will send missionaries and convert those infidels!!! DubaiMan
I like that question...
Especially if we discover hundreds, thousands or millions of new species of sentient beings over the next millenium... how special would we be in GOD's eyes then? What if some of them had their own creationist theories? What then? I guess one would have to wonder why GOD allowed so many perversions of his image.
It is humbling to think that there are 400 billion stars in our galaxy alone, one of trillions of galaxies in the viewable universe... "if it is just us, seems like an awful waste of space..." - quote from Contact. haha
I think if GOD didn't exist, it would still be necessary for sentient beings to invent him... (especially through early sentience) Liban God is all powerful. He is behind creation. If extra-terrestrials did exist then it is of God's doing. DubaiMan
Do you believe GOD created us in His image? I'm sure most Christians do... What if GOD did create humans in his image, and these sentient extra-terrestrials did not look like us? A whole species of sentient beings who GOD has little or no empathy for, and no real place in the universe or an afterlife.
Would an all-powerful, rational and empathetic GOD create a sentient species with no place in his plan? (unless it were to remind humans how special we are.) It would be a disturbing thought if He did... DubaiMan Another thought...
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30
"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18 Liban
God did not create man in his image. God has no image that is comprehensible to man. God cannot be described. God created us to be rational and intelligent so as to make us beyond the level of animal.
Islam doesn't refer to any image of God. Comparing our looks to his image is sacriledge.
That is why Islam would best respond to a situational whereas we contat extra-terrestrials that look as different from us as we do to a leech. DubaiMan
I've been told I should have faith that GOD loves me, and if I'm a good person, that perhaps He will give me eternal life, and that I should have faith that He will listen to my prayers and watch over us. But, if GOD "created us to be rational and intelligent" , why would he ask for faith in his very existence ? Isn't that a bit too much to ask from a rational and intelligent being?
By the way, why does being rational and intelligent make us "beyond the level" of other animals? We have a larger brain, and dextrous hands with which we can manipulate our enviornment... that adaptation is exclusively our own (after we killed off Neandertals).
Personally I don't feel I'm "beyond the level" of an eagle, we'll say for instance. The sharpness of their eyesight is at least four times that of a person with perfect vision, not to mention, they can fly... wouldn't you say that makes them superior to us? DubaiMan Another thought:
Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. - al-Ma'idah 5:69
And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender {Islam} (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. - Al-Imran 3:85 abs God created man in His image. Becos the Holy Bible says so. The Holy Bible is older than any other books on earth so don't argue with its accuracy . God only created life on earth. There are no ETs. The Bible says so. Above us is the air thats surrounded by the forces of evil. We call it the layer of heaven closest to us. The devil will send you all kinds of false signal to divert you away from the one true path to eternal life. Jesus said: "I am the truth, the way and the light. Nobody goes to the Father BUT THROUGH ME!" If you believe theres a God..then believe this. Aliens will come in the end to deceive many. Don't be naive. The ways of man is not the ways of God. Do not think for 1 sec that what you think is right Should be fine in the eyes of God. To make it easier for you to understand..think of the movie "MATRIX". Many think they are living the life they know until they take the "Red Pill". Jesus is the Only Way. Without believing in Him...God will not hear you at all. Without the shielding of Jesus...God will kill you on base on the sin thats in ALL of us. Peace and Grace. Liban Dude... Are you Benni Hanna in disguise? :lol: Chocoholic Guys, Chill out. As I've said before, I don't believe that we are the only beings in this vast universe, it's got to be virtually impossible. Plus why should millions of people of other religions around the world, change their minds and convert to something else? Does it matter what someone believes, if in the end they are all striving for the same goal? Pumpkin Escobar
You are the man dude!!!!!! I have been trying to get points like this across all the time. Pumpkin Escobar
Because the Bible says so......... such an obtuse viewpoint. But as long as you believe it, than that's what's important, it gives you hope and purpose.
Un-learn the Truth Pumpkin Escobar What's to say that their arent smarter beings in existance on Earth, but we havent noticed yet because we think "Man" is the best thing since indoor plumbing? In a universe that is forever expanding, I find it hard to believe that the same parimeters that created life on earth couldn't happen someplace else. Odds are it has serveral times and will continue to do so. Man thinking he is the best thing in the universe will eventually be our downfall. Liban
Man is not the best thing in the universe. The best of the best is God. If God chose to create life elsewhere it is well within his power and perrogative and I would not question it.
Nothing in the Quran says that life is limited to Earth. Nothing says it isn't. God will not limit things this way.
Weird that abs thinks that whats up in the sky sky are demons... Thats odd especially since Christians refer to the bright star in the night sky 2000 years ago as marking the birth of Jesus... :? Pumpkin Escobar I had a dog once that was pretty cool, will it go to Heaven, even if i dont? What about my turtle when I was five? A lil of the p :wink: oint, but I was wondering, what does the "Bible" say abs? abs We Christians spread the gospel for the sake of all. It does not make us feel we are better. (atleast not me) If I know theres something bad coming, I will do all I can to warn as many people as I can before that disaster get me. Atleast I will die knowing I have done my best. All religion DOES have the same goal but NOT THE SAME PATH. And the Bible has proven itself over and over again in history for people to take it seriously. Its no longer some fairy tale. And Dubaiman, you are one of those who reads the bible out of context. So please read them carefully. God - creates everything. It is HIS choice to decide who can see Him and lives. You wanna go argue with Him, be my guest. Evil in the sky describes the world. We do not fight visible demons but principalities of this world. The evil ones are there because God allows it. Nothing is beyond God. They are there until Jesus comes and it will be that way. And the star and mark the place of Jesus's birth has nothing to do with the evil in the first heaven. Do remember, God controls everything. He let them live until they have accomplish His plans. So stop reading the Bible out of context. If you have any questions about something confusing in the bible, feel free to post it here. I am not challenging you but simply want to help clarify things. Peace and Grace to you all. DubaiMan Hi abs,
There are in fact many things I find confusing about the Bible. Some of which is listed below. My biggest challenge with the Bible, or any other religious text, is finding that point at which the metaphors end, and what is literal begins... A few of these are quoted below, but first I would like address a few things you said in a previous statement:

Fair enough. Here's a few more things the Bible has to say:
“He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.” 1 - Chronicles 16:30
“Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...” - Psalm 93:1
“Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.” - Psalm 104:5
This points to the geocentric belief that the earth is the center of our universe. Do you not believe the earth is traveling around the sun?, which is travelling through the galactic arms of our galaxy?, which is traveling amongst it's galactic cluster? and so on?. Here's a few more references to the nature of the Earth:
“Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...” - Revelation 1:7
“Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” - Matthew 4:8
These two passages would likely be possible only if the earth were flat.
So abs... Do you believe the earth is flat? Do you believe the earth is fixed and "immovable"? The Bible says so... If I am guilty taking the Bible out context, than what of those who still believe the above passages have some contextual or symbolic merit? Wouldn't they be changing the very context it was originally taken in as well?

Actually, Hinduism is generally considered to be the oldest religion still being practiced today. The texts they created are the Vedas, which were written around 1,500 B.C.E. The Torah (the Jewish holy text) was written by Moses in 1,400 B.C.E. But again, Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots, which lie in Dravidianism. Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE and as such predates even the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures.
And hey, doesn't a certain logic dictate that the older a religion, and it's holy text equivalent is, the more inaccurate it would be? What if GOD made a mass sighting tomorrow and rewrote the all holy texts? I would be far more inclined to follow that book, than one which was written thousands of years ago, over a period of hundreds of years, and re-translated a few times. Most of us know the "purple monkey dishwasher" effect when telling a story down the line...

Please post the quote from the Bible stating this. To be honest, I haven't heard of that anywhere in the Bible. Genesis simply states that on the first day He created the heavens and the Earth, and spent the next few days preparing for his final creation... Man. Actually Eve was created after Adam... I guess one could deduce that Woman is the epitome of his creations.

Please do not take offense to this, but most of what your saying in the above is rhetorical and based on references to the Bible which is typical of those defending their judaeo-christian beliefs. For the sake of the rest of us, please try to make a case for GOD using what we as humans can measure about the existing universe, so those who are of different faiths or even agnostic can relate on some level.
You must understand that the Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, Tao Te Chung, and the Vedas are all simply Books! Recorded a long time ago using very poor methods, unless you feel, that whatever GOD you believe in sat by and overlooked the recording of every word , while whatever human contributed to it wrote away... Trying to convince a non-believer that GOD exists using the Bible, is like trying to convince someone "the Matrix" exists using the movie... It maybe convincing, but it's ultimately flawed. I do like your "red pill" analogy though. One of the underlying points of the movie I enjoyed is that the world that we see around us, that which we can see, smell, touch, taste and hear, and connect to on an emotional level, does not exist outside of us, but is rather an interpretation in our own mind...
I hope I'm not really offending anyone here, but I sometimes think that if most people in this world didn't cling to their religious beliefs as absolute, the Hitlers, Bin Ladens, and Bushs of the world would have less ground to stand on, and would have a harder time rallying to their cause... Pumpkin Escobar DubaiMan KICKS ASS!!!!!!!!!!!! :D Chocoholic No Dude, The things you're saying are amazing and really open up lots of different avenues. By the way why does everyone assume God is a man? Liban
God is not a man, God is not a woman... God is God... Perhapes we refer to God using the word He but thats only for simplicities sake. More polite than referring to God as It...
God has no gender, not in the sense we understand for God is not of anything we know of... God is so great and complex that He is above such simple denominations. DubaiMan
Funny you mentioned that Chocoholic. Your question reminds me of a stand up routine by comedian/actor George Carlin I heard a few years ago. He often integrated his irreverent and even disrespectful views on religion in to his performances. Seeing as how the lot of you seem to handle a little open criticism well, and don't mind some "objective thinking", I invite you to visit this link I was able to find, which posts an excerpt from that performance. Taken light-heartedly it can be humorous. Mind you, if you are easily offended by strong atheistic views, especially those put in a comedic or condescending manner, it may be best not to read. In any event he does offer a rather comical insight into why he thinks GOD is a man... (comical) depending on your point of view. A few of the other concepts might get your thoughts churning as well:

It is true... the Quran does not give any information about the physical attributes of God. It teaches that He created males and females but, He Himself, is above the scope of this division.
Liban... I'm interested to know what your reaction is to the Bible's specific claim that: “...God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” - Genesis 1:27 . How does this conflict play out in your beliefs? Obviously, it is difficult for both to be true. Liban There is nothing whatever like unto Him. (42:11)
God has image in the conventional sense and nothing is like Him in His Glory and Essence...
That quote has been misunderstood and abused. We all know that the bible has been modified and tampered with throughot time. But assuming that this quote is direct froim Jesus's mouth then what is means is that God created man from his own image of what man is supposed to look like. If God had an image in mind of a man that had 5 legs and one arm then thats what we would have appeared has... Its not His image as in His looks that we are supposed to represent but rather His idea His sort of mental image of what man should look like... DubaiMan Here's a religious question I often ponder:
Is there, in the world today, a major organized religion believing in a GOD who created the universe and then allowed it to unfold along its natural course, not intervening in it's development? Essentially the classic "deist" belief… Basically, my question is rooted in what I have noticed is this ironic fact: Those who believe in GOD, invariably believe there is also a life in the hereafter. It seems, in all major religions, you can't have one without the other... are we all desperately seeking life after this? Here's another, maybe a slightly deeper philosophical take on the problem I have seen in a Creator paradigm, and the afterlife concept...
Imagine yourself living a full, happy life, committed to whatever your beliefs are, at the end of which, whomever you believe GOD is rewards you with entry into heaven (or your equivalent)...
You are then reunited with all of your loved ones, offered forgiveness for all sins in your previous life, and begin an existence of eternal happiness on a new plateau; all things you pray and have been taught come to pass... Now, assuming you still experience linear time (as GOD does, answering prayers, working miracles, etc.) and you are not reincarnated as something or someone else on earth, you continue to exist in this state for 10, 50, 100, 1000 years and so on...
How long does this existence continue? My reason for asking is this: As we live out our twilight years, as say, those who live in a retirement home do, I have noticed we tend to grow tired of life on earth after what maybe only 70, 80 or 90 years. What happens in heaven after 1000, or even a million or a billion years? At some point, perception, consciousness, sentience, existence... it has to end doesn't it? Shouldn't it? No matter how blissful it is, do you really want to exist FOREVER?... and if you don't, then why be rewarded with an afterlife in the first place? Isn’t it arguable, that living for all of eternity, in any state of being, is a form of hell in itself? And, at the center of it, wouldn’t GOD, He, Himself, as a being of perception, grow weary of it? Wouldn’t He, Himself eventually desire to have an end?
I must admit, in this life, I have been very lucky... I have beyond model parents, and have been born and raised and am currently living now in what I consider the best part of the world. I am healthy and strong. I have much to be thankful for... I know others are not as fortunate as I am. However, the truth is, this existence is enough for me… Just as you cannot prove GOD exists, I cannot disprove it either. So, despite my slightly agnostic beliefs, I have genuinely thanked GOD for everything He has given me... but I do ask Him to not give me eternal life... I don't want to live forever. Do the rest of you? Chocoholic Hey Dubaiman, I like your ramblings and thoughts. Here's mine: As I've said before I'm by no means a religious person, but more a spiritual person and think more about the harmonies of the world around me and how things work together, I have a more scientific view to things. With regard to your question about the afterlife, obviously no-one can ever answer that question unless you've truly died and been brought back to life, but I believe that everything is made up of energy and energy cannot really die, but gets transformed from one thing to another. So in that regard people's souls as it were would simply leave the physical body and become part of the bigger picture. Don't they say when a person dies their body is 12grams lighter? Apparently the weight of your soul. What about reincarnation? I guess it's perfectly feasible to keep hopping from one body to another. BobbieMasoner
21 grams.
like the movie :roll: Pumpkin Escobar DubaiMan is my hero!!!! :D It certianly would suck to go on, in any sense, FOREVER. When I die, just blast my ashes into space, what do I care, I'll be dead. It would seem that if spirits, souls, etc retained their consciencousness and had a perception of time, that they would eventually go mad. In which case Heaven or Hell would be nothing short of a mental home for the Eternal :? Question: Do you think in Heaven or Hell, you would be in a form most suitable to you, say if I died at 103, would I be able to live in Heaven(or Hell) as a 23 yr old? Or what if I wanted to be 5 or 67? Could I grow my hair, get a tat, take up pottery? If people stay in Heaven FOREVER, it would make me believe in ghost, because after awhile, doing things in Heaven or Hell would get boring and they would probably start to fuck with us, those morose ghost!!! sniper420 mmmmmm some serious discusion is goign on here may be I should join in :twisted: Liban
The key word is serious . You are incapable of that... DubaiMan
Well, I think we can all agree there certainly is a lot of ramblings and thoughts in this forum... and since Chocoholic and Pumpkin Escobar seem to like mine, here's a few more based on your last comment:

It's my view, that anyone who has died and came back to life, didn't really die in the first place. Certain functions simply ceased temporarily. Even today, doctors have a hard time defining death. Does it occur with cardio-pulminary death? Brain death? Cellular death? Legal death? Personally I haven't put much faith in near-death experiences. Every single night your brain is able to make you believe a series of events are real which aren't. It's called dreaming. I have little encouragement to listen to the stories of dreams people have had, after being rendered unconcious from a near-death event... especially traumatic ones.

A long time ago, I had the same discussion with a family member. The problem I see with this, is that a number of us tend to think of our conciousness or ability to self-percieve as a form of energy in itself, instead of the by-product of a number of different energies working together (eg. electro-magnetic, chemical, etc.).
You're correct in your statement that energy is transposable and is never lost (The Law of the Conservation of Energy). And when we die, these energies are still inside the body, in the form of potential chemical energy.
Something which might parallel this, is a candle. When a candle is lit, it's releasing light energy (which we see), and thermal energy (which we can feel). When we extinguish a candle, its matter still harbours the equivocal potential chemical energy. Except this form of energy has a rate of reaction which is so slow, it's beyond the human sensory threshold (we can't sense anything happening). So, we have a tendancy to look at an unlit candle or a dead organism and think it is without energy, or at the very least has less energy, when in fact, the same potential energy is there... it's simply not being transposed.

If you really see the soul or our conciousness as a form of energy, the immediate issue I see with this, is that every energy form I can think of (chemical, thermal, electric, electro-magnetic, magnetic, gravity, light, kinetic, potential, nuclear) doesn't have weight. So why would soul energy have weight? Energy is either emitted, harboured or transferred. Energy doesn't exert physical pressure on matter. Even plasma (the closest thing between energy and matter), weighs almost nothing... probably a fraction gaseous (air) matter.

Perhaps, but here's one issue with reincarnation: It took (from the best of our knowledge) 100,000 years or more, to achieve a population of 1 billion around the turn of the 19th century. That means the 5 billion+ increase in the world's population has only occurred in the past 200 years... With projections ranging from 9.5 to 13 billion by 2050, whether you believe in re-incarnation or not, seems GOD will be busy. Don't you think that's a lot of new souls in a very short amount of time?... Where are all these souls coming from? Where were they before our population boom? To give you a little perspective on this problem: it takes 12 days to live a million seconds... but it takes over 31 years to live a billion!
I do apologize for taking up so much thread space with ramblings... but thanks for listening. abs Greetings Dubaiman. I am impressed at your questions. You are the 2nd person who has asked me the exact same questions. The first one went to argue with me over the phone. HE went deep into quantum physics and tried to explain to me the timing in the bible is totally wrong. OFcourse, he being the smarter one (just like you) won the arguement somewhere around space expansion=time expansion. Thats when I gave up. I will not attempt to answer all your questions here but I will say this: The ways of God is not the ways of man. The knowledge of God is wide that the very universe itself is too small to contain it. KNowledge of man is but the size of a coin. YOur "flat earth" question is very amusing. Almost childish. You are comparing God with man. Or rather, satan and JEsus on the mountain top. Do you think when satan show Jesus "the world" , Jesus is going to ask him: "Hey ..what about those places BEHIND that mountain...and that piece BEHIND That land?." No dude. Jesus understood what satan is offering. Satan is offering Him the world in the time while He is alive. Which frankly speaking...is only the middle east region. I am actually feeling funny while trying to explain what I am saying. So back to that 1st fella who asked me those questions. He was dead sure the bible is wrong because he was so "highly educated". So few months later, all hell broke loose for him. I am not saying God punished him, but I believe God wants him in His Kingdom too. So for such a highly educated person and a very business minded guy, you'd think he'd be rich real fast. Which he was. Then his business in a foreign land failed and crumbled. His wife left him. His partners in business wants their money back. And the next thing you know..he is stuck in another country with no money to go back to his country. He called me and told me he has hit rock bottom and is thinking of jumping off the roof of his building. All he wanted was to find a simple job in a new part of China and start over. After all, he does have extremely high academic qualifications. But to his surprise...nobody wanted him. It was utterly unbelievable. He said he could not even get a job as a teller in a bank!! HE told me he was about to jump...and I told him theres one more person who can help him. He asked :"Who?" I said: "Jesus" And he said: "Jesus Christ!! Will you give it a rest! I am about to jump off a roof here, buddy!!!" I told him he has no other choice but to look to the only person who can help in this life and death situation. I told him to get down on his knees that night. And I told him I will pray with him. I will ask God to take it easy on him because he such a proud person and that if he really did kneel down and call on you for mercy..please answer. I told him...do this...call on Jesus and repent. And tell Him that you believe He is the Son of God and has died on the cross for all our sins. I told him:" If you do this, I GUARANTEE you somethng will happen tomorrow. God HEARS all His children when they plead for help. You just need to have the right motives." 2 days later, letters started to pour in from under his door. People offering him jobs. The offer was so overwhelming..he could actually suit down and pick them. When I called him again and ask him how was things,.. He said:" Its incredible the speed which God works in." He did it. And I cried till my eyes almost popped out. He now has an even higher paying job and also the shareholder of a certain company. Making millions a year. Has a new wife that loves him. And a heap of good friends. He now goes to church weekly and gives generously back to the Kingdom. He told me , with his level of intelligence, he knows this: If you send out many resumes and you wait. Within 3 months, if nothing comes back to you, you can be sure nobody wants you. It was a miracle. And the country he was in ain't that big too. This is just one of the testimony I am sharing with you. Its close to my heart and everytime he sees me, he thank for it. And I always told him I didn't do anything more then pointing him in the right direction. The rest was the doing of our LORD JEsus Christ. Some people became a believer at a young age and lived a good life. And for those that God loves more, He will bring down disaster upon the person just so that he has nowhere else to turn to but God. And if the person has faith, GOd will return everything he has lost and EVEN MORE. Just so that he knows HE is God. Now, you can't tear that friend of mine from Jesus. Even if you point a gun to his head. Just like me, I am willing to lose everything for my God. Even my wife and kids. Because I know He will give them back to me eventually. You see, if you try to explain God in scientific terms and human understanding, you will not get far. Because our mind is too small. You have to understand it with the help of the Holy Spirit. -Alos parakleetos (Greek word for Holy Spirit which literally means "one who comes alongside you") The Holy Spirit is everywhere. He is standing beside you right now while you are reading this. Waiting. Now if you go ahead and tell God that you know you are a sinner and that you believe that Jesus has died on the cross to pay for your sins. You believe He is the Son of God. And you now give yourself to Him and invite Him into your life. The Holy Spirit will enter you and make Himself at home. From then on, your body becomes the temple of God and because the Holy Spirit is in you, you will have become allergic to sin. It happened to me. Overnight, I could not say the "F" word anymore and I used to swear like a sailor. For God who so love the world, He gave us HIs only begotten Son. And those who ever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Amen. Grace and peace brothers and sisters. God Bless. Chocoholic Sorry Bobbie, You're right 21grams, got my numbers mixed up. But wouldn't reincarnation be cool just for a few times around? I mean you could do things differently, living as a woman, then a guy and animal - whatever, that is if you would actually be able to remember what you did in your previous life. But I think you would get bored being around forever, you'd run out of things to do. I'd like to come back in say 500 years time and see what's changed. But the thing that frustrates me is you see so many people just wasting their lives. You're here for a flash in terms of space and time, and people just seem to throw their lives away. You should live every day as though it were your last and try to make every second count. So now I'm going to toddle off and stop blabbering on in here. :roll: sniper420
Guys look who is talking about serious talk..... :lol: abs
Again..you are all looking at things from man's perspective.
Do remember that God is the ultimate CREATOR.
Do you think He will stop creating after heaven on earth is established?
You think He'd be dumb enough to NOT know we will get bored after ..say..200 years?
He will keep on creating places and things you and I never even dream of and He will exceed that unimaginable thought of unimaginable events.
God is like the ultimate Gamemaster who never stops creating MODS for His people...
And if you are not a gamer then you won't know what I am saying.
PEACE SISTER :) DubaiMan
Hi Chocoholic,
Rest assured, I'm not trying to single you out in anyway by quoting you, but for me, it's the human condition, displayed in comments like this which support my doubts about the authenticity of the origin of organized religion.
When listening to other people's believes about such things as the afterlife or re-incarnation, it's all to often they express their views in terms such as: "...hmm...yeah...I like that idea..." or "...that would be 'cool' if this is what happens..." . They immerse themselves in what may be an interesting or intriguing concept, which isn't based on deductive logic or reasoning, or even what thier life experiences has presented them with. The underlying message I get from this, is that people are choosing their beliefs. For me, believing in a creator is like falling in love... you don't have a choice.
[A provoking thought on re-incarnation: My mother recently revealed to me, that for my first two years as a child (the third in our family), as opposed to just spurting out standard baby-babble, she was convinced I was attempting to articulate and vocalize a foreign language!... For me this may simply reveal that my speech-centers (left frontal lobe) developed faster at an early age... but for others, it's "strong evidence" for the concept of re-incarnation.]

I couldn't agree more. Your last sentence in this statement would hold true, especially if this one time on earth really is all we all have... singularly, and with each other...
Abs,
This story of your friend's hardship, is very inspiring, like those which are written in many holy texts. But by allowing ourselves to assume devine intervention is constantly taking place in our lives, it negates the achievments and the power of belief in the human mind.
Mohammed Ali (the boxer, Time Magazine's athlete of the century) for example, was deeply spiritual, and renounced his christian faith for a muslim doctrine. Apart from being naturally formidable in a physical sense, Ali was (and is) incredibly intelligent, creative and among other things, he believed he was the best... The power of belief is what allows us to succeed and achieve against impossible odds... It's this view, which drives the model by which I live my life...
When I train to fight, I train to defeat and believe I can beat Ali, Bruce Lee, the Gracie family, and so on... While I play and learn aspects of guitar, I visualize and believe I'm going to be better than Jimmy Hendrix, Satrini, Vai, Joe Pass, Petrucci... When I'm drawing or or laying things out artisically, I try to surpass DaVince, Michaelangelo, Van Gough and Picasso etc., because I believe I can... Now, I know this isn't true in all three cases, and these beliefs probably won't come to fruition, but in trying to believe such things are possible and setting it as a goal, it has allowed me to excell in ways I never originally imagined possible, and I admittedly would never have acheived otherwise. Belief inside the human mind, and the human mind itself, may almost be as powerful as we think any GOD is... I find this an inspiring thought.
Abs, if you and others in this forum really believe that GOD is going to return to earth in some form or another, consider this... I think most reasonable people might agree, that although GOD's words were recorded in the best and most reliable and reproducable method of the time, today, in the age of reason (supposedly), GOD Himself should probably reiterate his plan for us, perhaps, for example, through the use of the latest video and audio recording technology. By doin this, he would cut out the human middleman, which I'm sorry, inevitably taints his words. If He proves His existence to me, I will have complete faith in every other facet of His teachings. Doing less is asking to much from a race aspiring to be reasonable. However this is just my opinion.
Truthfully, I almost always keep these thoughts to myself, so I'd like to thank you all of you again for listening to them. Chocoholic Abs, Of course I look at things from a 'Human' perspective, as I've said before I'm not at all religious. I don't live my life believing that everything is already mapped out for me and 'GOD' is behind everything. I find it quite frustrating that you can't put your own ideas across which going on about such things. YOU have a brain, intellect, creativity, the power of thought, try going off on a tangent for once. Dubaiman: You're welcome to pick up my points that's no problem at all, I enjoy your replies. I truly believe that everyone has to believe in themselves, trust me on this one, having gone through many personal battles, yes I might have had help from the outside, but to achieve and be all that you want in life, you have to look inwards, if you don't have faith or believe in yourself, why should anyone else look at you any differently. agnostic27 THE FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN!!!!
when we were born they gave us our religion, of course they cant give us things they dont know..
we 'humans' feel 'safe' to the things we grew up with...
neweyz its good to be here...
Pumpkin Escobar DubaiMan says everything I want to, but with tact and class!!! What about cloning and God? Will God punish us for trying to create life? sniper420
Cloning doesnt create life u moron it's just making a carbon copy of a person. :lol: Liban
If God meant us to clone then we will do it because it would be His bidding... But I think cloning is immoral and God would never will it, the devil would though... Chocoholic Why? What's wrong with cloning cells which can repair damaged ones or help cure people?! God gave us the scientists and the tools to be able to accomplish these things, so in that respect why would God not want us to use it! Liban There is a difference between cloning cells to help people and creating a human being out of nothing for no particular reason other than to say, hey look what I can do.... Islam accepts and encourages cloning to a certain point, it allows stem cell research to find cures for deseases, to allow a person with no legs to get some, to make regtarded people normal... But not to play with nature by making your baby super strong, or blond instead of brunette, etc... Islam is against that and so am I. abs I believe in myself. But I believe more in Jesus. I did not say lie down on the floor and wait for God to feed you. I am saying trust in God in everyway. Sometimes God just need to take away everything you have, destroy everything you have and when you have no one else to turn to, you turn to Him. And thats when He comes and tell you that He did all this so that you can have everything He wanted to give you. One of these days, you are going to say this : "God, help me please." And just to remind you, if things do sort itself out afterwards, remember God. The hardest thing is always to put pride aside. After you have done that, you can achieve anything. I cannot tell you what it feels like to be truely free after becoming a believer. I cannot tell you the feeling of loving everyone all of a sudden.Everyone that I see, I have a sense of love for them. Just like all of you. Sometimes I get angry, but I cool down real fast without doing anything rash. Its good that you always strive to be the best. Always aim high. Then if you fall short of greatness atleast you will be good. God Bless all Liban Ummm... abs.... your post had nothing to do with science vs. religion... :) sniper420
To make retarded people normal? huh? If that's the case then u seriously need to be cloned...... :lol: Liban Oh you are just so funny... Learn to read you stupid mofo... I am speaking of stem cell research in cloning... You dumb ignorant f$#k... sniper420
Ah what was that? research in Mental Asylum to clone the brain cells so ppl like u can get some brain implants eh? :lol: Liban Never mind... :roll: sniper420
Do u have a mind....... :lol: Liban Yes you are funny... har har har... you dumb f%#k... Pumpkin Escobar Now that sniper420 is DEAD, we can get back on topic, which was........I dunno so ponder this What's the deal with ghost? I mean they're dead, they got nothing better to do than fuck with me? :P BobbieMasoner
habibi, they're CONFUSED., they don't know that they're dead... poltergeist are ones fucking with you :wink:
it all makes sense now, huh? Pumpkin Escobar I need to get some of that Ghost-Be-Gone spray! :P abs The evil spirits messes with you because they know you don't have protection. Just pray. If you can pray in tongues that will be better. Because when you pray, you "fumigate" your "house". Liban Pumpkin farts in order to fumigate his house :lol:



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