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sausages/bacon cancer risk


shafique &in_page_id=1774&in_poll_id=21768
ebonics the air you breath these days causes cancer... if you're going to go cautiously about everything, you will live a very sheltered vial life. the article talks about processed meat, which in the middle east is replaced by turkey/chicken/beef in various forms... and since chicken farms in the middle east could hardly meet demands, most chicken you eat is processed. shafique agree ebonics - I try to avoid all mechanically processed meats. Interestingly the article seems to single out processed pig meat products - and this is in a UK tabloid paper (that is quite right wing). The sausages and bacon tend to include nitrates/nitrites (or something similar) which some say are the causal factors for increased cancer risks - but I'm not a scientist and don't intend to start eating pork! Cheers, Shafique ebonics
because sausage and bacon in none pig products exists in tiny portions for the minorities.. and this paper is communicating to the majority of brits that chow down bacon & sausages every morning
pork is an essential part of english life, and is consumed in any proper english breakfast... come on shafique you're english innit? :lol: ebonics i should add, the spanish have a rediculous diet of processed pork products, probably to rival the brits.. but they have a longer life expectancy that actually INCREASES, and people are generally a lot healthier.. current life expectancy in spain is 79.78 years. its got more to do with how they live their life worry free, and they are generally happy cheerful people, that just love to have fun regardless of their age. current life expectancy in england even with this diet is also in the is in the 68.8 - which is hardly bad.. but comparing england and spain is a sin.... benwj You are treading on dangerous ground when you start trying to justify religious befiefs using scientific studies. You should not need any other reasons for not eating pork other than those given by PBUH Muhammad. Out of interest, what are they??? shafique ebonics - let me declare an interest, I work in life insurance and one of my specialities is critical illness - which includes cancers. You are right - Spain has a high intake of pork related products and a higher life expectancy than the UK. However, when you look at bowel cancer in particular, Spain comes out worse than the UK: see table 2.4: / (And this is despite the fact that Spanish people eat more fibre than the UK - predominantly fruit and vegetables, which in itself reduces bowel cancer rates by about 50% according to different studies. Therefore, if we were to take out the beneficial aspects of the rich in fibre Spanish diet, it could be argued that the bowel cancer rates would be even higher - lending weight to the hypothesis that processed pork increases cancer risk). Cheers, Shafique shafique
I haven't mentioned religion in this thread - but now you have brought it up...:)
The Quran actually does not give reasons for not eating pork - it just says God forbids believers from eating it. It does say elsewhere that the pigs are considered unclean, but that is not the explicit reason for forbidding pork.
By contrast alcohol and gambling are stated in the Quran as being banned because the bad outweighs the good (and says there is some good in both) - and because of this both are banned.
But for pork, no reason is given. Muslims don't eat pork simply because we believe God forbids us from eating it. On this point, I merely listen and obey.
And just to lighten the mood, how about this Tarantino penned quote from Pulp fiction:

Vincent: "Want some bacon?"
Jules: "No man, I don't eat pork."
Vincent: "Are you Jewish?"
Jules: "No, I ain't Jewish, I just don't dig on swine, that's all."
Vincent: "Why not?"
Jules: "Pigs are filthy animals. I don't eat filthy animals."
Vincent: "Yeah, but bacon tastes good; pork chops taste good."
Jules: "Sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know, because I'd never eat the filthy mot#%$0!r.
Pigs sleep and root in shit, that's a filthy animal. I don't wanna eat nothin' that ain't got enough sense to
disregard its own faeces."
Vincent: "How about a dog? A dog eats its own faeces?"
Jules: "I don't eat dog either."
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics while you maybe correct about spanish having a higher bowel cancer rate,
you cant just "take out" the beneficial aspect - they are healthy people

processed meat of any kind increases cancer risk.... the spanish eat processed meat of every kind, predominantly pork - jamon as they call it is an essential part of a big majority of spanish dishes that you eat out and about..... again because processed meat of the other kinds than pork, would cater to only a minor minority that dont eat pork.
so in a country where islam doesnt ban pork to be sold willy nilly as it does here, people feast on pork, because you cant have eggs without bacon, and pork sausages are heaven sent. (excuse the pun)

it only takes 1/100th of a brain to realise where you're heading with the thread. :) ebonics looking at that graph again, if you add female and male and average both out over both countries, they'd be nearly exactly the same... spain's only marginally higher in the male department UK's only marginally higher in the female department so at the end, "same same" as they say here..

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shafique ebonics - stats can be interpreted in many ways, all one can do is look at evidence and see whether the findings support the theory or not. It would be interesting to see if the findings of the original article can be replicated in other countries. I'm sure just these stats won't change many people's eating habits - I just thought it interesting (and yes, from my perspective it strengthened my conviction that I am right not eat pork) Cheers, Shafique ebonics so how does this effect fresh pork steak or pork chops? in no way at all. the article is clear, common deniminator, isnt pork... its processed.... Flying Dutchman Are there any studies done whether people who eat halal have a longer life expectancy than others? That would be interesting to me. I remember reading somewhere that Jews eating kosher have a slighly longer life expectancy. Also concerning food and drinking habits, the following saying comes from several studies concerning the usage of alcohol: "a glass of wine everyday to keep the doctor away". Edit: Did some googling afterwards (maybe next time I should first google and then write). Seems there is quite some consensus red wine (in moderation of course) reduces the risk of cancer, espesially prostate cancer. Beer might have the same effect. benwj
You're right. People are far more worried about the fat content in pork rather than the risk of getting cancer. The popularity of aspartame proves this, but that is a different topic all together.
Regarding the cleanliness of pigs, I once had a pet pig, and I can confirm that they are very clean animals. They are as smart as dogs but unlike dogs, they don't eat their own crap, sniff lick each others butts, or lick their balls. They crap in a designated area of their pen and prefer to sleep on dry clean ground. They do smell if left unattended, which may be why they are considered unclean. But we would smell also if we didn't wash. ebonics wine is a prime reason why french women do not get fat, and generally contains good anti oxidents. shafique
Asians (as in Indians) have higher incidences of diabetes and heart attacks, mostly down to diet (rich in saturated fats) - compared to other ethnic groups. Muslim asians have the same issue. So just eating Halaal is not in itself a guarantee of better mortality.
However, one hadith that universally it seems everyone knows but ignores is the advice that a Muslim should eat and drink such that one third of their stomach capacity is food, one third is water and one third is air - and that we should eat slowly.
For me (I fail this advice) - this is very wise - for it is up to the individual to judge what a 'third' of their stomach is - and to drink equal amounts of water, but stop eating before they feel full.
As for wine, it is no surprise to Muslims that there is some benefit in alcohol - all the studies show there is a 'J' curve - small amounts are beneficial, but increasing amounts are not beneficial. The fact that the Quran states this fact is for Muslims a reinforcement of faith, and I guess for others a happy coincidence :)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
so you're saying the quran says, drink alcohol in moderation? because if it does, i think i missed that one.
do you drink in moderation shafique, or do you abstain from alcohol? Flying Dutchman
I thought the Quran states that there are some benefits to alcohol. Where does it say alcohol in moderation is beneficial??? shafique
As I said benwj, on the question of eating pork, the reason I don't eat it is solely because I believe God banned it (first in the Bible, in Leviticus).
There are some that look for other reasons not to eat it, but I personally don't think it necessary and looking for reasons (as a Muslim) gets you into all kinds of unnecessary debate over whether it is unclean, contains retroviruses, tastes like human flesh etc etc - khalas, God says don't eat it and we don't eat it.
Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
Chapter 2 v219
THEY WILL ASK YOU CONCERNING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES AND GAMBLING. SAY: IN EACH OF THERE LIES SERIOUS VICE, AS WELL AS SOME BENEFITS FOR MANKIND, YET THEIR SIN IS GREATER THAN THEIR USEFULNESS (S2:V219)
alternative translation is:
They ask you the precept of wine and gambling. Say you, 'in both there is great sin and also some worldly profit for the people but their sin is greater than their profit and ask you what they ought to spend, say you, 'that which is saved after your needs'. Thus, Allah explains to you His Signs so that you may do after reflecting,
I'm taking the 'some benefit' to mean the beneficial effects of alcohol when taken in moderation - which is what has been shown in science.
And to be clear, the Quran bans alcohol and gambling elsewhere in the Quran, but this verse tells us why. ebonics so, would you personally drink half a glass of wine a day, for good health? shafique ebonics, the Quran forbids alcohol and gambling, but aknowledges there are some benefits to both, but the bad out-weighs the good. The verse forbidding alcohol and gambling is : 5v9 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Anyway - it is well known by all that Islam says Muslims should not drink. It is less well known that the Quran acknowledges some benefit to alcohol and gambling (eg some lotteries pay out money to charities, but my view is that these lotteries are taxes on the poor and stupid - two different classes of people) Cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman So a glass of wine with my dinner is a sin, because alcohol is made by satan, although health wise is it good for me? ebonics so the quran forbids something that may be of some health benefit to humans if used correctly... ebonics flying dutchman just added a whole new dimension. ill rephrase so the quran forbids something that may be of some health benefit to humans if used correctly... and satan made soemthing that maybe of health benifit to humans Flying Dutchman Shafique, please donot get me wrong here. I donot try to bash to alcohol thing in Islam here. I think it is in general a great thing that the Quran warns against the usage of alcohol (just look around you and see how much damage it does). Only, when using common sense I cannot see how moderate use of alcohol is bad, a sin etc.... ebonics im just fascinated as to shafique's contention that the quran contains no contradictions, when he just spoke one. Flying Dutchman Oh, and lets not forget the benefits of alcohol used for medical reasons (antiseptic, coughing sirop etc)...also the handiwork of satan? And I do believe Shafique posted somewhere that he is using alcohol for this reason (medical that is). benwj
Some perspective is needed here and this story was written over a thousand years ago.
I don't think anyone knew or cared about the possible health benefits of alcohol when people were dying at half the age they are today.
I suspect that the 'some benefit' is the happy feeling that they got after drinking alcohol and the benefits are that ugly women started to look better.
The downside is that, if they drank too much, they may have done stupid things that they regreted, like having sexytime with their pet goat.
I think that you will agree that the sin is far greater than the profit and this is why alcohol was forbidden. shafique
Moderate alcohol use is beneficial to health according to modern research. Islam says that as a society though we are better off not taking alcohol because the bad outweighs the good.
Many things in small quantities aren't harmful. Particularly drugs. Society needs to decide which drugs to allow and which to ban - Islam chooses to ban alcohol and gambling as they are bad for society.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the premise that alcohol causes more harm than good - it just is a socially acceptable drug.
ebonics - I can't see why you think it is a contradiction for the Quran to say it is banning something that is on the whole (but not completely) bad. Seems very logical to me, and ahead of its time when it comes to pointing out some benefit in alcohol.
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman Point is, it is supposed to be the work of satan. Still, there are a lot of benefits using alcohol, when you use it in a responsible manner (would satan create such a thing). Do you agree that alcohol gives more benefits than bad things, if you use it correctly? ebonics
saying that alcohol is the work of satan, and saying that alcohol has benifits for humans, is saying satan can do work that is benefitial to humans.
which contradicts every other saying thereof about satan in the quran...
its quite clear as day really. shafique
:) Good try ebonics.
Actually does raise an interesting distinction between the view of Satan in Chrisitianity and Islam. Christian tend to view satan as pure evil.
ebonics, do you know how satan is portrayed in the Quran (for you to say that saying some good in alcohol is contradictory)?
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics all you have to say is that the quran says satan does good for humans.... and you can put my claim down the toilet from there. so does the quran say that satan can do good for humans? shafique
Can I quote from Genesis to show that Satan tells the truth and God lies according to the Bible? Compare what both said would happen if Adam and Eve ate the apple in the opening pages of the Bible! :)
As for your challenge above, please re-read the Quranic passages quoted and let me know what particular concept you having trouble with - that Alcohol is bad and is satan's handiwork, but has some good in it. How is this different from Heroin which has some medicinal benefit?
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
shafique, dont weasel about the question.... this isnt about the bible we're talking, the bible isnt the one saying that alcohol is the work of satan and it could be benefitial to you, and i know what the bible says about saten..
so back to my question:
does the quran say that satan can do good for humans? not the bible.
in regarding to this:

we've established that:
alcohol could be of benefit to humans, but the bad far outweighs the good.
alcohol is the work of the devil
so the devil can be of benefit to humans..
and that is contradictory in ones self.
unless the quran says that satan is of benefit to humans, so does it or not? shafique ebonics, what is confusing about this Quranic verse? 5v9 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. How does it contradict: Chapter 2 v219 THEY WILL ASK YOU CONCERNING ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES AND GAMBLING. SAY: IN EACH OF THERE LIES SERIOUS VICE, AS WELL AS SOME BENEFITS FOR MANKIND, YET THEIR SIN IS GREATER THAN THEIR USEFULNESS (S2:V219) I can't see the contradiction, unless you believe that Satan is purely evil and cannot use something contains some benefit. PS - is it bacon withdrawal symptoms that's causing this argumentative streak? For me it is usually boredom :) Cheers, Shafique ebonics fyi, bacon is available at abela supermarket, a huge pig product and bacon section there... so there goes that theory.
and apart from that, i believe flying dutchman raised the same question in the last page..
its a simple yes or no answer, and you're beating around the bush
the above tells me, which also goes with your previous explaination:

simple yes or no answer shafique, does the quran say, that satan can be of benefit to humans, yes he can, or no he cant?
im happy with whatever answer you give, im just curious. shafique
May be it is too much bacon then? :)
Satan can use things with some good in them for evil purposes - simple. If a hammer is used to kill someone, it does not mean that the hammer can't be used for useful purpose and vice versa.
Heroin in early stages is all good - gives people a sense of euphoria. It gets addictive very quickly - but if used once, won't have any harmful long term effects. Doesn't change my view that Heroin is evil.
I'm not sure now whether you are just arguing for arguements sake or just a bit sore over the 'Nikah' issue where you have so far refused to admit that 'neek etc' don't come from 'Nikah' as you said it did.
But hey - it's good to talk! :)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics right, so ill take that as satan can do good for humans.
thats all. - see it wasnt hard.

there's enough evidence presented by my behalf for everyone to make their own mind up on who's correct and who's in denial - including a confession on your behalf that it does mean penetrate...
we both agreed on that. shafique See, it wasn't hard to reach agreement! :) Cheers, Shafique Flying Dutchman
So, how would you treat people who drink one glass one wine a day, would you consider giving them favourable conditions (opposite to people eating pork)?
This was my intention when pointing out that alcohol prevents cancer. Btw, congrats with the agreement with ebo. shafique
We have to work with averages when pooling risks. Those that disclose that they drink one glass of wine as a group will tend to have worse mortality than a group of tee-totallers.
If we were sure that people only had one glass of wine, then those groups would (all other things being equal) should have better mortality than those who don't drink, or drink a lot.
However, the biggest factors for mortality in applicants for insurance in a normal country are age, sex, smoker status, height/weight/exercise and then drinking amounts. Smoking, drinking and weight are the biggest factors that are 'controllable'.
For practical purposes most territories will charge standard rates for moderate drinkers and teetotallers, but will rate those with symptoms of alcohol abuse (as they do die quicker) - the higher the amount of cover you go for, the more tests that insurers will do.
Also bear in mind that the health benefits of alcohol are also present in other foods - fruit and veg typically, if you are generally fit drinking wine will not make your heart fitter or protect you. Those that are furrying up their arteries, there is some evidence that wine in particular has some beneficial effects when taken in moderation.
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman :D :D :D shafique
:lol: It's all your fault, you lulled me into a sense of complacency when I found out you could say sexual! :) benwj My understanding of the objective of satan is to lure people to the dark side. With this in mind, if you were satan, and you wanted people to drink something that had harmful sideaffects, would it not make sense to make it attractive in other ways? The number of people that drink alcohol is directly proportional to the number of people comitting alcohol induced sins. Which brings me to another question that I am now unsure about. Should it be a sin to drink alcohol, OR is it only a sin if you commit another sin due to the affects of alcohol? shafique
Well, before Islam drinking alcohol was not a sin - but with (as muslims believe) the revelation of the final, universal religion alcohol was banned.
I personally think that man had evolved to the stage where alcohol's harm outweighed its good. Prior to the 7th century, distilling of alcohol was not that common such that everyone would/could drink to excess. But by the time Islam was revealed, wine was more readily available. Also, in prior times wine, weak beer etc could be the only way to get clean water - there may have been medicinal properties from it that were later superseded by other medicinal herbs/compounds.
But at the end of the day, for Muslims, the Quran says that from the point of the revelation onwards it became a sin to drink - so drinking alcohol was not always sinful.
Personally, I also see this injunction as a safeguard for society as well as personal health. The number 1 drug problem in the UK and US is alcohol and the cost to society is in the 10s of billions of dollars/pounds - and I think the cost to lives - both in deaths and general misery/abuse is a much higher cost.
If you look at the other vice mentioned with alcohol - gambling - you can see the same evil effects - offers some limited enjoyment, but causes so much more pain for society.
The above are my own personal views - so I may be mistaken on some of the historical facts (before ebonics takes me to task :) )
It is also interesting to note that prior to Islam the Arab culture was one of heavy drinking and womanising. To have a person reform the Arabs and make them give up these traits is recognised by all historians as one of the great achievements of Muhammad, pbuh.
(And yes, I admit that +some+ muslims have reverted to pre-Islamic vices)
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman
I already stated my admiration for warning people against the usage of alcohol and he succeeded! But Mohammed stopping womanising??? Twelve wifes wasnīt it, inclusing a 9 years old (at most) and a daughter in law married to an adopted son? You must have expected this reply... shafique
Indeed - it was revolutionary to limit wives to only 4 and require marriage before s.e.x.
But there was also the small point of giving women rights to own property, divorce and inheritance.
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics :lol: :lol: only 4 benwj
I've never heard any mulsims preach this. shafique
Have you heard muslims preach that fornication is ok? :shock: :)
(Islam isn't the first religion to preach that fornication is a sin, but it was revolutionary for the Arabs)
It reminds me of a joke - you always pay for s.ex - only marriage is more costly than the other options!
:wink:
[And, I emphasise, its a joke!]
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics muslims fornicate with the pretence that they can go and do a hajj at the end of the year, and all their fornication is then forgiven... saudi's are the biggest offenders when it comes to that practice. i never quite figured out the whole paying to get married practice, what exactly is the dowry for? of course marriage costs anyone, between the ring and the wedding etc, but if you couldnt afford all that, you can just marry by tying a string around each others fingers, costing you about 10cm in yarn.... Flying Dutchman Shafique, I think your choice of words is a bit awkward. I heard of religions teaching no s.e.x. before marriage. But, saying marriage is required for s.e.x., sounds like the main reason to marry is s.e.x. As I am not a native Engligh speaker I stand corrected...but this is how it comes across to me. shafique
Agree - choice of words was 'clunky', I was trying to find a diplomatic way of saying that the prevalent Arabic culture was one of rampant womanising (in all its forms) before Islam. I was emphasising the regulation of sexual relations that came about as a direct consequence of the emphasis of marriage - but chose to represent this in a (deliberately/mischievously) provocative choice of words!
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
Wow. I always was in awe of Catholics who could sin and then go and confess and do a few hail marys! But this one takes the biscuit!
I guess we have bigger hypocrites than you do :)

Man pays woman, woman has some security. Actually, it should be - woman sets price, man pays, woman has some security.

I can tell that you aren't married yet.
:)
Cheers,
Shafique ebonics
of course that is a load of horse sh!t...
if someone does sin with the intention of "hail marying" it off - no hail mary is going to save them.. as retarded as the saudi's.
and yes im not married, but engaged to be so...
i guess women these days have their own securities and independance - they have their own jobs and earn just as much as men do, hell some women earn more than their partners.. there was a show on that, males in masculinity crisis due to thier women wearing the pants in the relationship... quality stuff. shafique
Again, I find myself agreeing with you (I agree both examples are horse doo doo).
Note that Muhammad's, pbuh, first wife was successful business woman who was richer than he was (he did some work for her before she proposed marriage to him) - so women working have been around for some time!
Cheers,
Shafique Flying Dutchman In India they also have a dowry, but its paid to the groom (īs family). Isnīt a brideswealth paid to the bride? Apologies if it is a stupid question, but I always thought per definition a dowry is paid to the groom... shafique
Yes, in India the groom receives the money.
Yes, you are also right that Dowry usually means the payment by the wifes side of the family to the grooms. This also (in a way) lives on in the custom of European (well, at least British) weddings where the father of the bride is expected to pay for a lot of it.
However, in Islam the man needs to pay the woman a sum. This is what we tend to loosely (and perhaps wrongly) call the dowry in Muslim marriages. The term is Arabic I think is 'Mehr' - at least that is what I know it as.
The sum is announced at the wedding ceremony and the intention is that it is an amount that the woman needs to receive and is solely hers to do with as she wants (on divorce, the man has to ensure that she has at least this amount with her, as well as any other maintenance etc)
Similarly, under Islamic law, a womans earnings are hers alone. She can choose to use it for the household expenses or share it with her husband, but it is her choice. By converse, the husbands earnings are not his own totally, but he has to provide for the household and wife from any earnings he has.
Edit - I was using the term Dowry wrong, I should have said 'Dower':
A dowry (also known as trousseau) is the money, goods, or estate that a woman brings to her husband in marriage.[1]
The opposite direction, property given to the bride by the groom, is called dower or mahr. Normally the bride would be entitled to her dowry in event of her widowhood, prior to the evolution of her dower rights; so common was this that the terms "dowry" and "dower" are sometimes confused.
Cheers,
Shafique



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