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Reply to an Atheist


SheikhOnDeRun This is an excerpt from The Four Imams by Muhammad Zahra regarding Imam Hanifa's intelligence and skill in debating. CONVERSATION WITH ATHEISTS Abu Hanifa was an observant man, and from the time of his youth, was fond of debate and argument in the quest for knowledge. He used to go to Basra, the home of Islamic sects, and debate with their leaders and argue with them about their views. It is related that once he debated with the Dahrites (materialist atheists) and in order to call their attention to the neccessity of a Creator of the universe, he asked them, "What do you say about someone who tells you, "I saw a laden ship full of goods and cargo which it bore across the deap seas through crashing waves and veering winds, travelling straight through them without any sailor to direct and guide it or helmsman to move it? Would that be logically possible?""No," they said, "this is not logically possible and cannot be imagined." Abu Hanifa said,"Glory be to God! If the existence of a ship on an even keel without a mariner or helmsman is not concievable, how can it be possible for this world with all its different circumstances, changing matters and actions, and vast expanse to be without a Maker, Preserver and Originator?"
Chocoholic It was a ghost ship - obviously. scot1870 The only unanswered question is what triggered the big bang in the very first nanosecond. Various religions lay claim knowing the answer, scientists are working ever closer back to the moment and will probably disprove many religious theories in the future. Everything else from that moment can be explained in science. Everything from the creation of Earth, the arrival of life and the evolution of man (I accept there are some holes at the moment, but we're 90% there and that's a whole lot more truthful than a bunch of millenia old allegories - of which every religion claims theirs to be true). To whit, I couldn't conceive a ship sailing safely through a storm without guidance as it would defy the laws of physics. I can conceive a world without god easily. Chocoholic Well unless it's in the Bermuda Triangle, because all sorts of unexplainable things happen there. And yes you're right science can explain most things. Some things are just unexplainable and there are forces in this world (or others) that can be held responsible. Bleakus dudes, the existence of god is clear or else there wont be an earth to live on and everything would go out of control. am i right? kanelli Great posts scot! SheikhOnDeRun I have been reading a book by well known scholar. The book is "God Rises". Once I am done I will be posting excerpts from it. It is an excellent book. It will be able to tell you the the scientific way in deciding if God exists. Regards Chocoholic Do you have to? People can make up their own mind one way or the other. Nick81
Well while you're busy finding the answer to this all essential question, I will be busy wondering how this is allowed to happen.
Should we also look up to the sky for a solution to this catastrophe or simply look at society, at governments that allowed and still allow this to happen today? Say you find your answer and prove without the shadow of a doubt that there IS a God. Then what?
Debates over the existence of God are pointless and people should realize very soon that you CANNOT prove or disprove His existence. And maybe start focusing their energy on more urgent matters. freza People, this is just a debate, I hope that the author of this thread is not trying to convince anyone of anything. If this is a subject that does not hold your interest, then so be it, I personally find this subject fascinating.
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What we actually know about our universe is extremely tiny compared to what's out there. There are tons of unanswered questions, as if the question of what triggered the birth of the universe was not mind-boggling enough. We don't even know the true nature of gravity, we don't know if there are other dimensions and forces in the universe and what those are, we don't know what lies beneath the blanket of the universe, even some of the physics theories out there are known to contradict each other. Scientifically we don't know exactly how life began on earth. Interesting how many atheists would rather hold on to a purely speculative scientifically formed theory on the origins of life but they criticize anything alternative, non-scientific yet non-speculative . And this criticism stems mostly from the role that religion plays in the belief of God. It's too bad, because believing in a creator should not necessarily be associated with a religion. Believing in God involves believing that nothing can exist without a creator, nothing can choose to be born before it's created (not even a simple-celled organism) therefor any form of life can not just pop out of a puddle of mud - out of nothingness and randomly. And the belief in a creator encompasses the fact that duality exists everywhere, it exists in life, humans, in the universe, therefor the dual part of the physical scientifically rational world is the spiritual world.

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Chocoholic Interesting post Freza, and I agree it is an interesting debate. Much of scietific thought is based on theory, until proven. But couldn't the same be said of 'God'? Also someone can be spiritual, without believing in God or belonging to a religion. I'd rather people had faith in something, than belonging to organised relion, which I personally just don't believe in. I mean you could go through your whole life, doing all the things religion tells you to, for there to be nothing at the end of it. As for the 'Big Bang'. well sometimes things just happen, the right materials come together in the right quanitities to create things, it happens all the time. The universe is so fast, and we are but a blink of an eye in terms of space and time. Quantum Physics - now there's a subject. mema After Frez's post it would be ridicules to say not even 10% of the truth.
CAN u prove the opposite.
It’s because of these catastrophes that ppl remain believing in God, now i don't care about the religions but there should be the hope of something divine out there. thank god there a is a God cuz humanity is dead long time ago. n its only this believe that's keep ppl surviving. Chocoholic I think you misunderstood a quote there, whch was actually 'Can you PROVE or DISPROVE that God exists'. No-one can prove it either way - yet. Personally I'd rather people believed in humanity and in themselves and their abilities. People 'kill' in the name of God, from all religions. To me that's ridiculous. There should be respect and love for your fellow 'human-beings'. Believing in a higher power, gives some the excuse to cause atrocities, and while that still happens, I'd rather not believe in such a thing. I think it's a man made creation to implement control and nothing more. kanelli If there is a god, why does he/she let humans do such terrible things to each other and the environment? If we are his/her creation, why is he/she not looking after us and giving us more guidance? Why does he/she even let us believe in different gods with different religious texts? Why does god insist on being a mystery to everyone. Why does god let us discover and unravel the pieces of how our world is constructed, and then let us manipulate it with our advanced science? Is he/she really cool with that? All I can say is that if there is a god, he/she might have created the Earth etc. but then he/she left a long time ago, or is just watching to see what happens without intervening at all. Chocoholic Brings a quote to mind, 'God is a child playing with a giant ant farm'. Probably not far from the truth. Or the moster race of aliens are waiting to come and save us all - maybe Scientology is the way to go after all. scot1870
You're saying religion is non-speculative? Then why are there so many religions out there with their own speculation on how life began and what God is!?
We do have a very good idea as to how life formed and what conditions caused this, as shown by the recent speculation that running water on Mars could mean there's a high chance that bacterial life has formed. I don't know how evolution sits with Islam but in Christianity there are people that refuse to accept it when there is overwhelming evidence that we are descended from other creatures. The basic fact is that life can be created with the basic elements available in the universe - carbon, hydrogen, water, heat and electricity.
I actually studied quite a lot of physics in my time and am very well aware that a grand Unifying Theory as yet alludes us, but the 2 main supporting theories are advancing and it will come. We have a good understanding of the universe as it stands, what you're talking about is the visible universe which of course is tiny compared to what is out there but our reach is getting closer and closer to finding the big bang and analysing what happened.
As for "humanity is dead and religion is all that keeps us going", you may wish to take a quick look on the damage that has been done in the name of religion and revise your thoughts - wars, religious persecution, the spread of diseases (e.g. AIDS). In many respects, religion has killed humanity. If everyone was an aethiest the world would be a much better place :wink: kanelli How is it clear Bleakus? You must have read up on other theories for the creation of the universe, as well as evolution? If you have only read up on religious explanations I can see your perspective. Chocoholic Sorry Bleakus, but no, the existance of God is not clear at all. The world is in chaos and out of control now, and I totally agree with Scot when he says that people's belief in God and religions are the main causes of most of the problems in the world today. Countries are riddled with HIV and AIDS - why? Because religion bans the use of condoms and birth control. People are blowing things up and killing others - why? In the name of God, because some believe theirs is the only religion and theirs should be the one 'everyone' lives by. Just a couple of examples. But again I agree with Scot when he says the world would be a better place without the belief in God or organised religion, and people believed in humanity and themselves. freza Scot, I never said religion was non-speculative, I said belief in God is non-speculative which means it is FAITH based. By faith I mean the unquestionable belief in a higher power even when science can not back up the existence of that higher power. My post attempted to extract God from religion, but yet you three seem to ONLY focus on religion. Why? Did you really not understand the point I was trying to make?
Choco, I'd rather that people be free to believe in what the want to believe in: whether not believing in God or whether believing - with the right to not be thought as backward or irrational (by certain people) for believing in a higher power.
Kanelli, these questions that you raised have been raised many times before. The oversimplified answer would be: Because God gave us free will and choice and he's not responsible for what we choose to do with our will, just like our parents, our earthly creators, are not responsible for our actions. You also fall into the same mistake of viewing God as one dimensional - as if he is only exists to bring justice, to have duties, to posses human-like qualities and to rule over religious doctrines. Religion was created by men, not by the creator himself - why fail to think of God in the logical sense?
I've noticed that some of you over-focus on the entire religion and violence themes. While it's no doubt disturbing to see any religious group being associated with violence, we forget that it's the misuse of religion that's the culprit, and mankind's role in religion, which means that as long as it's in the hands of mankind, anything will be imperfect as humans are and always will be imperfect.
But the focus here again is on God and not religion. And choco, the universe does not fall into the 5% margin of error of any given scientific experiment. The universe is precise to the minutest detail, scientifically measurable; randomness is less part of it than we might think. If things were "to just happen" in the universe, then imagine what our daily life would be like? Imagine living with uncertainty of what we know as the laws of physics? We wouldn't be able to wake up to the certainty of a sun that is rising or a day that ends when the sun sets. The birth of the universe was no accident...
Bleakus Well, think about it. There are theory like the big bang that explains that the universe was created by a Big Bang of gases and stuff. Who created that...?? who created in such a way that planets and other galaxies were created and they all orbit around the sun in a controlled manner....who controls that and taught the planets to act that way? My explanation is that everything in this world is under control by a being that is powerful. Without control, then there is nothing.. mema ok so u want us to believe that God doesn’t exist becuz of lack of evidence to support it. yet u cant dismiss his existence entirely cuz ur theory also lacks the evidence to prove so. Shouldn’t ppl who scientificly justify everything have open minds n be speculative towards everything.. So if atheists rule the world there were never be wars no killings!!!!!if people are evil it has nothing to do with god, ppl kill mostly for politics n power should we dismiss both. Ppl kill for justice n pp kill for injustice too. Some religious ppl live n die without harming a fly, how does that relate to God Bleakus
dont be sorry dude, unless you saying sorry about shooting me in the face at paintball then yeah.... :lol: :lol:
well saying that there is a god or not and talking about why war happens because of religion are too different subjects, but im happy at discuss after about that subject :)
ive posted my explanation already.... the quickest one for now.......i am so glad we are having this argument kanelli I think very logically about god, and my logical conclusion is that there is no god. If there is a god, what use is he/she to us? Is god even supposed to have a purpose for us? Even if we accept that a god exists, how should we deal with that? Should we be choosing a religion and following the teachings, preparing for some kind of afterlife? What is the point of faith and religion if it is man-made and may be misrepresenting god's real wishes? (Does god even have any real wishes for his creation?) Religion has be used as an excuse for violence, there is no avoiding it. I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out. The simple fact remains - if there was no religion, there would be one less "group" to separate humans from each other. We already have skin colour, language, ethnicity, tribe, social status, gender etc. dividing us and creating conditions for violence. Chocoholic Freza, I totally get what you're saying, and I do see your seperation between God and religion, and in fact I would prefer that people had 'Faith' as opposed to belonging to an organised religion, so on that I agree with you completely. Afterall a persons relationship with God (if it exists) is a personal one. Mema - Atrocities would still exist, it's in mankinds nature to be destructive. But you still can't deny that fact that there are issues in this world because of religiong or a belief in God. Bleakus - And why can't mother nature be responsible for these things? Why can't they 'just be'. You see very often when science fails to explain something or people can't explain something, it's all to easy to say 'it's the work of God'. Why does it have to be? Why can't it be natural evolution? Bleakus
well mema, even as a muslim you need enough evidence to be convinced that we are muslim and we believe in the islam and the quran....etc. Thats why we have a brain and we are allowed to use it. Or else we shouldnt have brain if we not suppose to think of subjects such as these....
i still think you are awesome though ;) Bleakus
dont be sorry dude, unless you saying sorry about shooting me in the face at paintball then yeah.... :lol: :lol:
well saying that there is a god or not and talking about why war happens because of religion are too different subjects, but im happy at discuss after about that subject :)
ive posted my explanation already.... the quickest one for now.......i am so glad we are having this argument freza OK, this post is about religion...
Kanelli, if you don't want to believe in God, then don't. Isn't it great that you have these rights to believe in what you want? But don't make judgments and oversimplifications about those of us that do have beliefs and about religions in general. You seem to be the religion hating type of atheists: The kind of people that think that they're open-minded except when it comes to people's right to believe in God or religion. It's interesting that you don't see the paradox in advocating personal freedoms while condemning the choices of people's draw to faith-based groups. Also, some of you have a preconceived notion of what religion is and does, you only see one side to it - the bad side - and much of it is fallacy and much of it is a front for plain old politics. Many of the current wars taking place in the world are not due to religious difference but to greed. Religion might be one of the many twisted aspects that some use as justifications for warfare and violence, but the main motivator is something else, it's mostly something primordial: Territorial conquest, control, power...
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What would be refreshing to see here is a more open-minded, non-judgmental atheists. :P Chocoholic For me, people can believe whatever they want to, as long as they're not going to force their opinions on others then that's fine. Everyone's entitled to believe in whatever they want, or not as the case maybe. Nick81
Highly simplistic statement that is based on absolutely nothing. Yes we live in world where many wars, many conflicts are caused by MEN in the name of religion (notice the way I put it? Religion didn't cause anything, this is the 1st thing that people need to understand).
So using a highly questionable logic, you deduced that removing religion altogether would make the world a better place. What do you make of all the people who actually do GOOD because of religion. Out of fear of this Higher Power, out of choice because they believe in an afterlife. Some people, because of religion, decide to dedicate their lives to help others. You can question the force that is driving them to do it all you want. Point is, there is good in religion. Plenty of it.
Again I will state, you want to fix things in the world today? Don't blame Islam, don't blame Christianity, blame MAN. freza so Chocs is a "live and let live" mostly-non-believer, great, it's possible! :shock: and I'm in shock that Nicolas and I actually agree on something! Nick81
Hon, when will you finally realize that we were meant to be together? :lol: kanelli Oh, give me a break. And I'd like to point out that I am not the only person who said that the world would be better without religion. However Freza, you like to focus on me and my opinions. Some kind of pissing contest I am not interested in participating in with you. Religious people are highly intolerant of atheists and look down on us and pity us for being so "misguided" and "lost". Religious people spend a lot of time trying to convert others to their faith, especially the athiests. Do you really want to talk about tolerance? It is obvious that the religious PEOPLE are the ones causing the war, not the actual institution of religion itself. However, you must ask yourself how people can manage to justify violence on the part of their religion and conduct the violence with a seemingly clear conscience. The religious texts should be explicit about that, shouldn't they? The Islamists on here seem to be getting their backs up like I am specifically talking about Islam or something. Not once have I mentioned Islam. I am speaking about religions in general, and violence has been used in the name of pretty much every religion out there. I am pefectly accepting of religious people as long as they are peaceful and not trying to shove it down my throat. If they use it as a reason for violence or try to judge me or pity me because of my lack of religion, then I have an issue. Don't jump to conclusions about my beliefs, especially when I clearly outline them here. freza ha ha ha so funny :roll: oh Stressy, don't get too comfortable. I think arguing and name-calling each other is so much more fun, especially for a sufferer like you. The next time you step on my toes, I still won't think twice about calling you an Eastern-religion-hating, neo-communist-light sympathizing, hedonist. Now stop trying to derail important threads. :twisted:
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Kanelli, I didn't focus on you, I replied to your post, there's a difference. And you do make outrageously generalizing statements about religions, I mean, you just did! Look back at this thread and see how many jabs at religion and believers there are compared to jabs at atheists specifically . What you see is people trying to explain their beliefs, not trying to bring down the beliefs of others with serious and one-sided accusations by using the ever unoriginal (and mostly incorrect) war argument that you and Scot clearly have used. If you can't see that, then too bad, but surely others can see it.
I stated how I view things, I do appreciate (believe it or not) the opposing views on this subject (including yours) because after all, any argument sounds better if there are two aspects to it.
At this point, I don't have much else to add to this subject... kanelli No one was trying to bring down other people's beliefs. We were having a debate about whether god exists or not. On this forum there are plenty of threads with people talking positively about their religion and you don't see any of us atheists jumping on them and trying to put their religion down. Because three of us stated in this thread that we personally think the world would be a better place without religion doesn't mean we are hostile to all religious people. We are entitled to our opinions and can back up our opinions, as we have done. If you don't agree, then fine. If religious people can pass judgements and criticism of atheism, then they should be able to take it when atheists do the same of religion. Ultimatey, you have to be confident and secure in your own beliefs. No one can take that away from you. scot1870
Religion is man's interpretation of God, without man would there be a God? Open to debate, but it's fair to say the monkeys, cats, fish etc. wouldn't be living their lives by the way of the Qu'ran/ Bible etc. if we weren't here. It's a philisophical point in the same way as "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a noise?", you can debate either way. But in reference to your point above, I believe that without men, religion wouldn't exist and so you cannot make a distinction between the two. Religion does have good points - the general morales from the allegories have shaped society for the better - but unquestioning belief by some has led to some terrible acts.
As for atheism, I actually am very liberal when it comes to people believing or not believing. I just argue my points on here as to how I came to my decision. My parents believe in god, some of my brothers too. I went to church when I was young, looked at all the evidence as I grew up and as I studied sciences I finally settled on atheism. As someone pointed out above, people seem to think that atheists are lost, confused or simply haven't taken enough interest in religion to understand it. Actually, to me being an atheiest is probably the hardest choice to come to as in every major culture they bombard you with religion from such a young age that people are automatically conditioned to accept it. Being able to question what you've been told and coming up with a different viewpoint is a hard thing to do.
Believe if you want to believe, if you feel it enriches your life or explains some things you don't understand then it's probably a good thing. Just don't try to convert me, I'm happy with my meaning of life being to have children, share my life with as many people as I can and then become worm food when I die. asc_26 No matter how philosophical, theological or scientific line of reasonings that we'll use to prove or disprove a point, still there are things around us that can't be explained. There are loopholes in every angle.
My point - LEAP OF FAITH. kanelli Very well said scot! Nick81
Good post. Big difference with your prior statement. And FYI if the conversion comment was directed at me, I am not trying to do anything. I am not exactly what you would call a religious person. But I have a lot of respect for people who believe in something, whatever that thing might be. As long as they don't force it on me of course...



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