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Lets Go to School ...


Intimacy This journey to School starts in Hebron/ Palestine
the children starting their day going to school to be faced with a checkpoint:









Douce`Amere Wonderful liberal ramble of Liban on the topic “Why are Jews so Powerful?” fades here… “a good a proper education… why can't we do the same?.. Nothing would stop Muslims from exercising 100 times more power than the Jews”… Yeah, let`s go to school! It`s a topic of no comment. Most of the world has no concern to this. alexandra to point a gun against a kid! this kind of images just make me go insane! how dangereous can a bunch of kids be, and how much harm they can do to an armed soldier? i admire this children's courrage to defent on their simple right to get in the school, as for the grown ups arround r too busy to make a war ! it'a amazing how much power they have in their eyes, looking at pic2 i noticed the soldier that pointed the gun at them had fear written on his face! shame for this men who use a gun against them! this r the real terrorist! :evil: Chocoholic Actually Alexandra, quite a lot if they've been brainwashed into strapping a bomb to themselves and walking it upto the check point! But you're right this doesn't make much sense, but I don't get the point Bsorc is trying to make. Intimacy For the Matter of fact .. these younge girls have managed to manufacture bombs which just look like books. Chocoholic You missed my point Intimacy, as sadly it is something that has happened in the past where young children have been recruited and sent to check points as unknowing suicide bombers. But I don't know what the deal is here. And would you care to elaborate through words rather than just posting images? Intimacy This Kid invented a bomb which is as small as a stone and as powerful as a rocket and it also could give him the courage to stand in front of a tank alone... by the way his name is Faris Odeh
Chocoholic Ok so you're obviously reverting to sarcasm as you don't have any answers - well done! arniegang Intimacy Lets just put things in perspective with regard to the child in front the tank picture 1/, where is his parents? 2/ why is a child stood in the road in front of a tank? 3/ why is a child throwing a stone at the tank? 4/ what lesson and who did he learn the lesson from, to make him want to throw a stone at the tank? 5/ why isnt he at school? 6/ what is the point of throwing a stone at a tank? 7/ is it courage? or was it stupidity? 8/ Shouldnt children be encourgaged to do things that children do ,like play games or sports The list is endless Yshimy. I would put it to you, this was not the act of a child, it was the act of someone or sombody or a group that encourged young children to act in such a way. Do you really think that is the right thing to do, whislt chidren are fed with adult propoganda. What hope has anyone or any nation got to make this world a better and more peaceful place to live in, if we involve innocent children. MS I thought the lesson is that occupation is bad. Is it that difficult? Or do you need London to be occupied and tanks roaming freely in its streets and meeting your kids on their way to school to really understand it?

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Dubai Knight
You may not be aware or be old enough to remember the situation in Northern Ireland? The vast majority of the inhabitants of this region are Protestant Christian and are firmly in favour of being a part of the United Kingdom, however there were, and still are, a small minority of Catholic Christians who were determined to force the region to be a wholly Catholic part of the rest of Ireland against their will.
This led to terrorism on a huge scale and to a British Military occupation of the area, which exists to this day. Alongside the civilian police force, attempts to restore order and to protect the ordinary peace loving majority of the population required check points across a very large number of public areas as one of the terrorists favourite weapons was the indiscriminate bombing of shopping centres and hotels. Many innocent people died over the years because of this.
The bombing campaign spread to the mainland of the UK and we were faced with random searches by the police, armed officers and troops in many public places such as the airports and roadblocks and checkpoints in and out of the City of London.
Many school children faced passing these roadblocks and checkpoints daily and became used to their inconvenience. Thankfully the situation there has now been vastly improved through diplomacy and sensible negotiation and people are free to travel without many of the restrictions that used to be the norm.
Yes, we understand it possibly better than most as that particular conflict has been going on for over 600 years!!!
This is an extremely simplified version of a very complex dispute but I quote it in an attempt to point out that the restrictions and checkpoints are there to protect the majority of peaceful citizens from the minority of certifiable madmen who indiscriminately bomb civilians. It is not nice to see and, if you have ever been involved, it is not nice to be affected by it and many of us wish it were not neccessary. What would you prefer? No metal detectors at the airport and for you or a family member to be on a plane that is hijacked or blown out of the sky?
It is a part of the modern world and sad, but it happens because of the fanatical few.
Knight MS Of course I would like to see a metal detector in my own country that is governed and protected by its own people. However, I wouldn't want to see foreign tanks in my country's streets. I think you know that there is nothing in the whole world that justifies occupation (like the military occupation of Britain to my own country Egypt for 70 years ...have we every heard an apology for that?). Foreign tanks in the streets is not like metal detectors that protect us from criminals. Dubai Knight Did Egypt get an apology from the Hittites, the Romans, The French under Napoleon, The Germans or any of the other countries that at some point occupied it? The Romans occupied Egypt for several hundred years, not 70. Tanks or armed troops in the streets whether they be an aggressive occupying force, an international peacekeeping force or an internal force are not desirable in this day and age, but it happens. We don't like it, but it happens. To single out the images seen here as being exceptional is not really justified. I agree the situation should not be accpetable, however those children would be a lot more afraid if there was no security and the bombers were able to target them and their schools because they are a 'soft target' and the terrorists were able to create a media frenzy by harming them. Your knee jerk emotion is justified and condoned, however the overall problem is on an exponentially larger scale. I think you need to just step back and look at the bigger picture? Knight Lionheart Lionheart
Choco... And you have been brainwashed to believe the crap the Zoinist media tell you is the truth... so please if you are going to justify the action of maggot Zoinist, than be prepared to justify the actions of suicide bombers... MS It is mere arrogance not to apologize because the Roman's didn't. The way you look at the conflict is skewed. You blame the boy and not the tank. This tank is not here to protect the boy. The tank is here to reinforce an illegal occupation. This illegal occupation is the source of the problem. Dubai Knight
There is no question of arrogance. I merely pointed out that Egypt, like France and Spain and just about every other country on the planet, has been occupied by someone else at some point in it's history. You can't blame the current generation for the actions of the previous.
I also do not have a skewed vision of this, or any other conflict. The question of an illegal occupation is beyond yours or my actions to control and is based solely upon where you stand in a political or nationalistic spectrum. There is a famous photograph of a student standing in defiance in front of a tank in Tianenmin Square...we would probably both agree that he was right and the PRC government controlled tank was wrong...but then we are looking at it from the outside of their political situation. To the people of China, it has a much more significant meaning.
Remove yourself from the emotion of the situation and then look at the wider political reasons why the boy and the tank were in the same proximity and you will realise the futility of the whole damned thing. These are power games played at international governmental levels by politicians from both sides who have their own agendas and ulterior motives. Both the tank driver and the boy are victims...just as you have become a victim of the propaganda machine.
Knight MS Regarding people, not a single generation is to blame. Politicians, however, need to apologize for the bad things that happened in the past. At least condemn them. I agree that the tank driver is probably a victim too. But, I am not a victim of any propaganda machine. Different kinds of people have different interests. Dubai Knight
Correct. We do. Often and very loudly in this forum. However, are they listening to you or I?
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Knight
MS
Unfortunately, no. kanelli
This is what frustrates me. The average citizen in any country wants to cooperate and solve international problems, but somehow our elected officials don't act on our wishes and feed us crap to persuade us to their vested interests. It is the wishes of big business and small interests groups that seem to win out because they have the money, power and influence. sharewadi
Quite. That's what drives major change ultimately - read any history book. Arafat understood that in the 1970s. He had some money but not much power, so he created influence with plane hijackings etc and marketed the PLO cause that way. But now we see Palestinian children throwing rocks at tanks? I don't think that's going to do much except start a forum discussion. sharewadi
A bunch of kids shot people dead in Columbine a few years ago.
In Brazil, kids are shooting people dead every day (forgot name of film about those slum areas).
In Africa, wars are fought with child soldiers. hashman
interesting to hear ur views arnie...... well how wouldnt the adult politics affect the children when they are part of it. there are curfews, blockades etc . Now u can't keep track of ur children all the time...ur questions seem that u dont really know what's going on in palestine . go to Gaza and c for ur self it's like cattle market Liban I have seen these photos before. It is sad and regrettable and a direct result of what was called my "liberal rantings on the power of the Jews"... Because of the fraternity of the people of Jewish religion and the resulting control (more detail in my other post), they have managed to do far worse than whats in these pictures but yet nobody hears much of them. I may hate the ones responsible for what they are doing in Israel against my fellow Arab brothers but we are also to blame for not standing up after WWI to enforce what was promised to us, for being divided in foreign policy during the cold war, for not presenting a united from in peace negotiations with Israel instead of having eahc country go it alone. The list is endless. Change much happen.... arniegang
I am affraid you are missinformed Lionheart. Children were used as suicide bombers in the Vietnam war, as was mothers carrying babies. Chocs is quite correct in saying that children can be used a weapons. It does happen. Intimacy This boy was shot in the neck Intimacy
Arnie.. this is The Story .. it will answer all the questions...
The poster boy for Palestinian defiance stood about 1.6 meters in his socks. He might have weighed 45 kilograms if he had eaten recently and well, which he rarely did. He was good at soccer and naughty at school, and before he died - shot in the neck by Israeli troops and left to bleed to death on the battlefield - he told his friends he was intent on becoming a martyr for the Palestinian cause. Faris Odeh got his wish, and then some. Killed last month, a few weeks shy of his 15th birthday, Faris has been immortalized posthumously by a remarkable photograph. It captured him - short, scrawny and wearing a baggy sweater - rearing back to sling a stone at an Israeli tank perhaps 14 meters (45 feet) away.Now Faris is a Palestinian legend, his valor celebrated in graffiti and wall art. Political parties pay him homage. Television extols his example. His photograph adorns calendars and posters has been painted, larger than life and in bright colors, on the walls of refugee camps in the Gaza Strip and on the sides of West Bank office buildings.
But at home in Gaza City, where Faris lived with his parents and eight brothers and sisters, the hullabaloo over his death strikes a sour chord. His mother, for one, is not sure she buys it."When I see his picture my heart is torn to pieces," said Anam Odeh, 40. "I guess I feel proud for him being called a hero, standing in front of a tank and all that. But when I see his classmates come around after school, all I can do is cry. "And this is what I was just telling my neighbors" - she starts to weep softly, brushing the tears away as the words come tumbling out - "that I'm so afraid that Faris's death will just go back to normal. And the only thing that has happened is that I'll have lost my son."
He was almost never heard talking politics. What he did like was taking risks. Once he leapt from the roof of his house to his cousins' next door, a span of about two and a half meters over a four-story drop. And in the Palestinian uprising that started Sept. 29, he found the ultimate risk.Day after day he would skip school after morning classes to go looking for trouble. If there was no fighting with Israeli troops at Netzarim, an isolated Jewish outpost in Gaza, he would go looking at Karni, a crossing point into Gaza controlled by the Israeli army.
Faris's absences did not go unnoticed. His headmaster would send notes to his parents. His father would beat him. His mother would go looking for him from clash point to clash point, ducking bullets as she searched each group of boys. When she found him, he was usually at his forward-most position, just meters away from the Israeli troops and tanks.To his mother, he seemed to have a death wish. "It wasn't the fame he loved," she said. "In fact, he was afraid that if he was filmed on TV his father would see him, so he'd run away from the cameras. One day, after I'd gone and dragged him from the clashes every day for a week, I told him: 'Okay, you want to throw stones? Fine. But at least hide behind something! Why do you have to be at the very front, even farther up than the older kids?' And he said ' I'm not afraid.'"His father, Fayek Odeh, tried everything. He did not just beat Faris, said his mother. "He beat him black and blue for throwing stones."
At one point, his father locked Faris in his room; he escaped through a window and shinnied down a drain pipe. The next time his father heard that Faris had been at a clash point, he tied the boy's hands and feet together and left him on the roof after dinner. By midnight, his mother, worried sick about the boy, sneaked up to the roof and freed him. Angry notes from the school principal made the things worse. Faris had always been in trouble at school; now he was skipping it completely. There would be scenes at home- his father would be accusing Faris of throwing stones; Faris denying it; his father finding a slingshot under his son's shirt, and the beatings starting all over again. On Nov. 1, after a month of clashes, Faris's cousin Shadi, a young ,man who had recently joined the Palestinian police, was killed in a confrontation in Gaza. "When that happened, Faris said, ' I swear I'll avenge his death," Anam Odeh said. "He went to Shadi's funeral wreath and placed a snapshot of himself in it. He said that the wreath would be for him, too."
Late at night, after the beatings and the screaming and the punishments, Faris's parents would talk quietly in their room. "I'm afraid for Faris," his father would say, Anam Odeh remembered. " I'm afraid something bad will happen."Other boys, Faris's friends from school, would stop by the house to warn his mother that he was at Karni again, throwing stones. She grew more worried; Faris ate little and spent the day scrambling through gunfire; he had become as thin as a stick. "I must have gone out looking for him 50 times," she said."One day I went out three times. Sometimes I'd sit down to lunch, and before I could put the first bite in my mouth, some kids would come by and tell me Faris was at Karni again, throwing stones. And I'd drop my fork and rush out to find him."
Anam Odeh became such a familiar sight at Karni that the other boys would tease he son: "Hey, Faris, where's that SWAT team that's always after you?" Faris was killed on Nov.9 at Karni, about 10 days after the famous photo was taken. His friends said that he was shot while crouching down to pick up a stone. He was so close to an Israeli tank,, they said, that they could not drag his still body to an ambulance for more than a hour. The hospital pronounced him dead on arrival. It was not long before people began to stop Anam Odeh on the street, recognizing her from television. "Aren't you the martyr Faris's mother?" they would say. Like all families of Palestinians killed by Israeli troops since September, the Odehs received a $10,000 check from President Saddam Hussein of Iraq. For Palestinians, the Odeh's son is a hero, a lesson, a model. But not to his mother. "Faris was a boy who loved me so much," she said, weeping again. "His blood is worth so much more." Dubai Knight This is a very sad comment on society as a whole. The fact that a boy of this age was not able to be controlled by his parents or his school and insisted on playing truant to be a member of a mob rather than achieve a life and an education. They say the real soldiers are those who fight with the mind and diplomacy rather than the gun and the bullet. Perhaps if he had not chosen to feed his adrenaline rush and concentraterd on his studies, he would heve been the next peacekeeper or political leader of his people? Instead he chose to provoke an already provoked man with a gun. I refuse to believe that, at his age, he really knew what he was doing and to him it was all still just a big game. I am appalled also at the confessions of the parents to state that they beat the boy 'black and blue'. What purpose did this serve? He was terrified of going home and to him it probably seemed that dodging bullets and throwing rocks was far more preferable to being at home being abused. I feel sorry for the parents, the family, even the soldiers faced with the dilemma of a child intent on causing as much damage and harm to them as possible...but most of all I feel sorry for the boy who, contrary to popular myth may well be forgotton by the masses sooner than you think. Within a few years he will only be remembered by his families and a small news archive... :( :( :( Knight MS Knight, you still don't want to mention the original problem: illegal occupation. You still blaim the boy. The occupation is illegal. Its resistance by men, women and children is legitimate. It is unfair to ask the boy to seek a natural life under occupation. The French, British and other Europeans resisted German occupation. The million people who died resisting the French occupation in Algeria died in honor, and it wouldn't have been fair to ask them to seek a normal life, and don't care about the French. arniegang Most of Europe managed ok during 1939-45 :roll: :roll: Intimacy
Mate .. i understand that all this is coming from your good heart... and clean intentions
Well DK i aagree and disagree, Yes its sad mate. but i dont believe that education could take this guy anywhere since i know many of the well educated people there who became nothing but a pain for the socity and them selves.
Its not about controlling this boy.. its not about education or politics.. its not about age.. this boy was much older and braver than a boy.. i think i shouldnt be calling him a boy any more.. he realized what he should do.. and did what educated adults are incapable to do.. not because they are disabled, but becuase of the certificates that they are holding now made them think in a goofy way..
Normally edcuated ppl like to be in fancy places suited and booted..becuase whether we no it or not.. this is what education means to them.. they would clame that policy and bla bla will solve the issues.. but it never did .. and it never would.. its the best way to Fool people on TVs and achieve goals behind closed doors... and the best way to fool and convince our selves that we should discuss only..because such people are so cuards to get involve by spending money or actual effort.

You can see what its happening to the Gov. which was elected by the palisteniane nation .. and how the entire world trun against them becuase they are an entitiy with a REAL free-well.
unfortuantly DK, this is what we have been poisend with all the time.. peace talks and crap and stuff.. we dont know thats its the new way of humelation and compremise on our rights.. the rights which we have since before we know its ours.. real peacekeepers were eleminated or at least.. they will reach no where.

Hehehe.. well dude.. when we beat a kid it doesnt mean that we BEAT the kid..
and if he is terrified of going home... he will go and stand in front of a tank Shoeless!! well.. i dont think that has to do with a game or something else.... but its all has to do how we define our position in front of our selves.. and define our cases accordingly.. and this "man" was in that position..

dilemma!! i dont think a kid throwing stones on a tank which is known as the world's most armored tank should be shot in the neck mate.. maybe i think u should read the coming story..
By the way.. why no west media broadcasted this ever!!! Dubai Knight Ok. I'll address two points in one: First: MS- I did address the 'illegal occupation'. That is something outside yours, mine and many millions of other people's control. The situation in Palestine was not started yesterday, it was created in 1945 and if it had not been there, it would have been elsewhere. Hitler and Goebbels had orignally planned to turn the whole of the island of Madagascar into a giant concentration camp and move the entire Jewish population of Europe (some 6 million souls!) to an island with an extremely delicate ecostructure to start with and just barricade them in to starve or survive at their own choice! He then planned to help the process along with the addition of a few nasty biochemical weapons. Read the excellent and thorough biographies of Adolf Hitler by both John Toland and Ian Kershaw. After the Jews it would have been the Arabian nations and then the Indian Nations and the African until he had 'ethnically cleansed' the world to his ideal. Once one occupation is removed, the natural cycle of events leaves a vacuum that creates another. We were not even born when the political decisions to create 'Palestine' and 'Israel' were made. Good or bad, we are just living as witnesses to the consequences. I don't condone the occupation of any sovereign state by another, however sitting here and discussing it on this forum will not solve it. the situation is sad, but what do you expect to change by making noise here? It will also not bring that poor unfortunate boy back. The most precious thing we have is life, strip away all the trappings of society and politics and religion and that is what it boils down to. Sentient beings, surviving. We must protect that at all costs. Second: Intimacy. It is not so much the point about the boys eduation or not, the fact is he had the POTENTIAL to choose a non violent future. In the words of Mark Renton: Choose Life! That he chose instead to face down a heavily armoured tank with a rock, does not show any particularly intelligent action, merely one of frustrated defiance. Returning to the Nazi simile, when Germany annexed Poland in 1939, the Wehrmacht was the most technologically superior and well armed fighting force on the planet. The Poles had nothing to defend themselves with apart from raw courage and they led cavalry charges with lances against tanks and armoured cars! Needless to say, the Blitzkreig was unstoppable. Reading the full story again, he was not neccessarily shot by the occupants of the tank, but received a bullet wound to the neck shortly after the photo was taken. In a firefight situation there is ordnance flying around everywhere, he could have taken cover, but unfortunately he and a bullet happened to co-incide at the same point in space and time. There is no independent report here if there was any type of return fire being aimed at the Iraeli troops? We do not know the real facts but everyone is willing to condemn based on a one sided report. There is no 'Zionistic' journalists point of view of the incident, so we are seeing a totally one sided picture. As I said to MS in the previous post, you are therefore unwilling victims of a propaganda issue. I will give you a simple parallel from a TV advertisment created for a London newspaper that prided itself on open and honest reportage. The first scene is of a sweet little lady walking down the street with her purse in her hand. The next scene, we see a typical punk running at top speed towards her and looking over his shoulder. It cuts to a policeman running at full speed appearingly after the punk. At that point it freezes and asks the question: What do you read into this scene? The punk is being chased by the law because he is stereotyped as being a 'criminal'? He is looking over his shoulder to avoid the policeman? The law is therefore going to catch him before he can snatch the little old ladies purse? That was the view they created. That was how people were supposed to see it. They then unfroze the images and panned back and you find that the punk is actually running behind the policeman and is looking back at a runaway truck coming down the road towards them...with failed brakes! The punk scoops the little old lady and the policeman out of the way in the nick of time and saves both their lives. How a story is portrayed depends entirely on the point of view of the viewer and the media that show it. Both sides of the media fence are attempting to propagandise their particular political stance. It is what they are paid to do! So my final summary: Don't believe the things you see and read in the press from either side of the fence! It is all propaganda of one sort or another. Be assured, Elvis DID assasinate JFK...I read it in a newspaper, so it must be true! Knight arniegang and ET did go home, i read it in The Sun :lol: :lol: sharewadi
Er, I thought David "invaded" the "promised land" of Canaan around 1200 BC. One could argue it started then.
Or with the Balfour treaty in 1917?
But then there was the Byzantium Empire in there somewhere too. And the Crusades, then Saladin kicked them out. Where do you draw the line and say prior claims are invalid?

Quite. MS Knight, occupation of Gaza, the entire West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal. This is a simple and straightforward fact. there are a number of UN resolutions that were never reinforced. A solution based on ending the occupation of these territorries together with fairly addressing the refugees' rights shall be attainable. This is not as complicated as you pictured it. I'm only going back to 1967! Again, the propaganda argument is really in your imagination only. The problem is real, and in the hearts and minds of Millions of people. sharewadi
Gaza is not occupied anymore.
Resolution 242 (& 338) attempted to address the occupation and was recognized as legitimate but implementation was difficult - Israel wants Arab states to withdraw declaration of war first and Arab states want Israel to withdraw first. I suppose I'm over-simplifying it there. But who's going to enforce the resolutions anyway? The UN isn't an army or police force.
Resolution 446 declared Israeli settlements illegal but again, who's going to enforce it?
It's simple only if you look at it from one side. Dubai Knight
If the UN instigated resolutions, then they would have been acted upon and re-inforced by the UN, backed up by international troops and a peacekeeping force. You cannot tell me that Israel is invisible to the UN? My reference to the situation starting in 1945 refers specifically to setting up of the Jewish State of Israel by the Allies in response to the treatment the Jewish community had received under the Nazis. The decision was flawed, but it is not one that you or I have any control over.
You are propagandised...trust me!
Knight Lionheart
Knight...Since its the Europeans who have mitreated the Jews in WW2, why are Palastinians asked to give up their land for people who they have never wronged? If Europeans were not looking to create a conflict for the Future, why did they setup Isreal in Middle east instead of giving Isreal land in Europe..especially taken land away from the Austrian and Germans who perpetrated the crimes against the Jews?
About 80% of the Jews in Palastine are immigrant Zoinist Jews who migrated from Europe after WW2... sharewadi
Hah hah. This is the UN we're talking about :shock: :?: .

Because historically, Jewish people have always considered Palestine to be their homeland.
This conflict will continue until one side is completly wiped out in a fight, or until the opposing sides both decide it's more important to live together amicably than to be right. Over two thousand years of history in that region indicates neither of those options is likely to happen anytime soon. kanelli Exactly Sharewadi. I have no idea why some people seem to think that Jewish people just picked Palestine out of a hat. yshimy
Thanks for highlighting that they CONSIDERED but it is NOT..
So muslims land at one point of time expanded from the atlantic ocean west (including morrocco and spain) till india (included) east...
So if we "considered this is our land... will we have it??? :wink: Chocoholic Question: "What is the land that God promised to Israel?" Answer: In regards to the land that God has promised Israel, Genesis 15:18 declares, "To your descendants (Abraham's) I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates." God later confirms this promise to Abraham's son Isaac, and Isaac's son Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel). When the Israelites were about to invade the promised land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, "Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates — all the Hittite country — to the Great Sea on the west." With Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4 in mind, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile river in Egypt to Lebanon (North to South) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (West to East). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised. arniegang Excellent post Chocs :wink: MS ... MS ... arniegang Excuse me MS Chocs has shown no arrogance, she is merely quoting from "the Bible" Do you have issue with the Holy Bible ?? :roll: :roll: MS .. arniegang So can you please give us quotes from the Quoran, where it states the contradiction to the Bible in terms of the "promised land" please MS. arniegang Your edited bullshit post was noted MS. If you want to conduct yourself in here with serious debate, do so politely please. MS A serious debate is not possible with you. Whenever I see a good point (e.g., a previous point by Knight) I am able to say I agree with that. Your arrogance, however, does not allow you to do so. Don't call this a serious debate. And don't talk about conducting oneself! MS I've edited my other posts too, because it's not worth posting. Dubai Knight
MS, you have to accept that there are 2 sides to every argument or debate, these should be viewed objectively and every person is entitled to their opinion and point of view, however there is a decorum required and the debate should be carried out in a civilised and intelligent manner. Abuse and rudeness are not neccessary.
If you disagree with a point, then put forward a sensible and measured argument to that effect rather than ranting aimlessly. This is the reason we have Mods on the forum. If you disagree, then take the issue to Fight Club.
In response to Lionhearts post, the lands in question were actually disputed long before the Islamic faith was born. (I refer to Chocs quotation from the bible) and were originally a part of the lands of King David, of the line of Soloman and Abraham, an interesting reason as to why Jesus was originally persecuted by the Romans, who occupied the region at the time of his birth, as he was supposed to be of 'the line of David' and therefore consituted a political threat to their occupancy and the stability of the area.
The political disputes continue to this day although the number of independent claimants has merely increased.
Knight arniegang
I'll take it you are unable to answer or justify any points made re the promised land then MS. No surprises there then
MS - you also need to look up the meaning of the word arrogance - a clue, it does not mean someone who disagrees.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Liban "Hu said to me, 'Son of Adam, go, get you to the house of Yisra'el, and speak with My Words to them. For you are not sent to a people of a strange speech and of a hard language, but to the house of Yisra'el; not to many peoples of a strange speech and of a hard language, whose words you can not understand. Surely, if I sent you to them, they would listen to you. But the House of Yisra'el will not listen to you; for they will not listen to Me: for all the House of Yisra'el are of hard forehead and of a stiff heart. Behold, I have made your face hard against their faces, and your forehead hard against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made your forehead: don't be afraid of them, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they are a rebellious House.' Moreover Hu said to me, 'Son of Adam, all My Words that I shall speak to you receive in your heart, and hear with your ears. Go, get you to them of the captivity, to the children of your people, and speak to them, and tell them, Thus says the YHWH-Elohim; whether they will hear, or whether they will refuse to listen.'" Yechezkel (Ezekiel) 3:4-11
In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Ever Merciful. In the Name of As-Salaam, the Peace, the Shalom, the Lord of Peace and Equanimity, even-handedness and indiscrimination. In the Name of the All-Powerful Most High God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords and Chief of Chieftains. May those who have ears to hear and eyes to see bear Witness to what the Spirit proclaims to the Children of Adam (as), the 72 nations of the world.

In light of the recent developments in the Middle East, we find it imperative to reiterate the official position of the Ahl-i Allah concerning the Zionist movement and the so-called State of Israel. First and foremost, it must be emphasized that no matter how much the power elite would like to believe otherwise, Islam is absolutely not anti-Jew or anti-Semitic. The Prophet Muhammad (sal) said in his final sermon:
"There are neither races nor tribes in Islam. A Jew has no superiority over an Arab, neither is one who is black superior to one who is white, except by deed."
Furthermore, while the media of this system of Dajjal (Anti-Christ) would like to imagine that both Islam and those who actively oppose Zionism are "Anti-Semitic," it must be reminded that Arabs (and more specifically, Palestinians) - while making up only a small percentage of the Islamic global community - are Semitic peoples themselves (in that they are descended from Shem, the son of Noah). So, while opponents of Zionism are often pigeonholed as "anti-Semitic" this assertion is in fact nothing more than a political boogie-man term used to trigger an autonomic subconscious preconditioning against certain societal forces that the media - and the power elite that controls them - wishes to sway public opinion against. Beyond that, many Muslims such as myself, both past and present, are Hebrew in ethnicity. To the Muslim, notions of race or ethnicity are absolutely not a factor in our opposition to Zionism.
The People of Allah do not advocate the indiscriminant violence against our Hebrew brothers and sisters. That is, we do not believe that oppressive acts perpetrated by various Hebrew peoples make all Hebrew peoples guilty of said acts (and thus deserving of retribution for those criminal acts). However, with that said, we also realize that the controlled media seems only to report on the isolated acts of so-called "Muslim violence" enacted very rarely in an indiscriminant manner. While at the same time the illegitimate so-called state of Israel is bulldozing houses, sending civilians to detention camps, murdering innocent men, women and children, and now bombing and shooting missiles at a people; who the Torah tells us are the Hebrews' own brothers and sisters. All the while these crimes go unreported, justified and sugar-coated by the media of this Babylon system. Furthermore, while these crimes have continued for so long, the United Nations has stood by, not only in complicity to them, but also as an active participant in carrying them out. Thus, once again proving that the United Nations is nothing more than a conglomerate of Nations who have sold their collective soul to Shaiytan and now serve governing roles only in the capacity as the many heads of the Beast.
Biblically or Qur'anically, no race or culture is given special status for their background (as modern day apostate Jews believe they are). It is only faith and deeds rooted in faith that gives one Salvation and the status of the Children of Light. In order that our stance be clearly and more fully understood, a brief historical review of the situation at hand in the land of Palestine is necessary.

Nearly a century ago some self-styled Jewish leaders started to propagate nationalistic ideas within the Jewish world community. This, slowly but surely, led to the formation of a world-wide Zionist movement.
In the earlier days of Zionist propaganda the concept was vehemently denounced by the Rabbinical authorities of the time as being diametrically opposed to the Faith of the Torah. One of the basic tenets of the Jewish faith is that since Divine Will has placed the Hebrew people in exile, we are forbidden to have any nationalistic aspirations. We must understand the reasoning behind this. For if a people are to realize their potential as the Children of Adam (as) living in SUBMISSION to Divine Will, then it is imperative we cut away all blood ties, and attachment to race and nationalism. All Hebrews are bound by Divine Will to accept the yoke of the diaspora and live in peace and harmony within the nations in which the Divine Destiny (Al-Qadar), has placed us (so long as those nations themselves are not oppressive).
However, when the demand for a Jewish state became insistent, the opposition of the Rabbi's of the day grew in intensity. They declared for the whole world to know that the Jewish people did not want and are forbidden to have a state before the advent of what is called "the Messianic Era." This Truth is in no way altered even by the de-facto establishment of the so-called state of Israel.
The growth and promulgation of Zionism was fostered in no small part by the genocide of the Nazi Holocaust, wherein the majority of the opponents to Zionism were murdered in the name of racial superiority and ethnic cleansing. Ironically, the atrocities which occurred under the Nazi persecution triggered longing for national stability in the remaining Jewish community that made many susceptible for the propagandizing of Zionistic colonialism.
In addition to the fundamental ideological transgression that is Zionism, this so-called State of Israel has consistently indulged in activities which constitute a breach of Jewish religious beliefs. Complete communities are forced to expose their children to an atheistic education, autopsies are performed against the wishes of the deceased and their relatives; the sanctity of the resting places of ancient sages are being uprooted and violated by so-called archaeologists under the full auspices of the Zionist government.
From all the above it follows that the Zionist organizations and the State of Israel can in no way claim that they represent the world of Judaism and the Hebrew people in general. All of the belligerent acts perpetuated by the State of Israel are against the Hebrew Divine law of the Torah and thus completely foreign and repulsive to any and all practicing Jews.
"We participate together with the Palestinian people in their anguish and suffering. We feel their intense pain and frustration resulting from the cruel oppression they are enduring under the brutal Zionist occupation of their Palestinian homeland. This is especially so since we profoundly understand the overwhelming justice of their right to self-determination and statehood in their beloved Palestine. A yearning that burns fervently to be free and sovereign in their native land. The legitimacy of the Palestinian cause does not conflict with Judaism and Torah.
"It warms our hearts with nostalgia to recall those happy days of yore not too long ago when Jew and Arab lived in one land together in brotherly peaceful co-existence before the appearance of Zionism and the subsequent influx of nationalist militant political activists - an entirely new breed of pioneer settlers - who with every wicked form of guile and deceit as well as overt coercion sought to expel the indigenous Palestinian population and illegally expropriate their property." - Orthodox Jews Against Zionism

Recent events in the Holy Land have plunged Judaism worldwide into unprecedented soul searching. The conflicts to which the creation of the State of Israel gave birth continue to plague Jew and non-Jew alike. Tragically, no end appears to be in sight. Various and contradictory solutions have been offered for the current travails.
However, all the solutions offered in so-called mainstream sources have failed. It is our belief that they are inherently doomed to fail, for all of them make one fatal assumption. They are founded upon the false notion that the State of Israel must exist. Furthermore, in contrast to the plain evidence of history, they see its existence as a positive development for the Jewish people. This is a fundamentally wrong notion that must be opposed by all true Hebrews and Muslims alike.
The People of Allah offer a real alternative to this herd-like mentality which has produced fifty years of war and suffering for both Jew and Arab. We affirm the simple belief, once universally held amongst Torah believing Jews, that Jewish sovereignty over the Holy Land before mankind's final redemption is wrong. It is wrong spiritually because it denies that the Jewish exile is a metaphysical state that can only be altered by the practice of our ancestral faith. The Faith of Adam (as), the Faith of Abraham (as), the Faith of Moses (as). The Faith of SUBMISSION to the Divine Will.
Furthermore, Zionism has proven itself wrong in the manifest realm because it has consistently led to war, oppression of other peoples and the general exacerbation of anti-Semitism throughout the world. But it is said that history is written by its victors. Zionism - by which we mean not the love of Zion shared by all believing Jews but political and military machinations to grab the Holy Land before the Lord Most High chooses to redeem all of mankind through the "Mashiach" - wields tremendous power over world opinion. All who question its dogmas are subjected to severe blacklisting and, at times, life threatening terror.
This near total historical censorship has blinded both Jew and non-Jew in our era to the universal Torah opposition to Zionism up to 1948. In all schools of European Judaism - ranging from the writings of German Orthodox leader Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch to the Lithuanian perspective found in the works of Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman to the Chasidic views of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Reb Shalom Dov Ber Schneerson - we find scathing critiques of Zionism.
Intimidation cannot forever suppress truth. Zionism is bankrupt. Its Ieaders war with each other as well as with the Muslim world and the very God that Jews claim to worship. With a near hysterical obstinacy they demand that America finance and support their failed enterprise.
The hour of Zionism is passed. Its victims wander about searching in its darkness for solutions. But no answers will be found there. The Jewish "problem" which Herzel set about "solving" century ago cannot be solved by arms and politics. The Hebrew exile and the sufferings of all humanity are contingent upon repentance and good deeds. That is the only Jewish agenda worthy of the name. A Name that is only SUBMISSION to the Will of the Most High, YHWH-Elohenu.
"It is a tremendous shame and embarrassment for the entire genuine Jewish people that these horrible deeds were perpetrated using the name Israel. Zionist atheists have absolutely nothing to do with the Jewish people because a Jew can only be one who believes firmly in the Creator and His Torah. These renegade traitors have usurped that hallowed and cherished appellation Yisroel and grafted it upon their monstrosity. It is an ersatz. Actually they have neither Jews nor Israel (Yisroel). The Zionist Dogma to lift oneself out of the exile is diametrically opposed to Torah and belief in G-d and can never be reconciled with Judaism. It is a manifestation of the most insidious pernicious atheism and heresy, an unparalleled defection from the Torah hitherto unheard of augmenting enmity and animosity." - Orthodox Jews Against Zionism

"'The Gates of Zion' are the 'openings of the World.' A gate is nothing other than an opening. We thus say 'Open for us the Gates of Mercy.' God said: I love the 'Gates of Zion' when they are open. Why? Because they are on the side of evil. But when Israel does good before God and are worthy that good be opened for them, then God loves them "more than all the dwellings of Jacob. [The dwellings of Jacob] are all Shalom (Peace) as it is written (Genesis 25:27) 'Jacob was simple man, dwelling in tents.' " - Rabbi Amorai, Sefer HaBahir 38
You who call profess to be the children of Isaac (as). You who call Abraham (as) you father. You sons and daughters of Jacob (as); with what audacity do you make your claims to speak in The Name and bear the Seal of Hu's Chosen People? For as it is written:
"If Abraham did not do deeds of kindness, then he would not have been worthy of the Attribute of Truth. Jacob would not have been worthy of the Attribute of Truth." Yochanan Ben Zachariah, Sefer HaBahir 135
Your blood will not save your soul. Your lineage will not cover over your iniquities. No man is given authority to trample upon the rights of his brother. No people may displace natives of a land that they covet. Holocaust against one people does not give license for once victims to oppress their brethren.
To you who profess the religion of the Torah, know that the exile from the Holy Land is the result of a Divine decree, recorded in the Talmudic "Three Oaths" (Kesubos 111a) which prohibit the Hebrew people to travel en masse to the Holy Land, rebel against the other nations for the purpose of instituting a state of Zion therein, or in any way seek to hasten the Messianic process by the worldly means.
The land of Israel was given to us according to YHWH's Perfect and Holy Will, and when the sins of the Hebrew people accumulated those same were exiled from it - with the commandment that neither they, nor their ancestors should attempt to defy the Divine Will and return to a state of self-rule until the Holy Mashiach came and we recognized his appearance. This exile is in essence a spiritual state that cannot and (as the Talmud teaches), must not be remedied by temporal means. Accordingly, the Jewish people have no "claim" to the Holy Land at present. They have no right to conquer or to rule over it.
Clearly, the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 was in no way a fulfillment of the Jewish people's millennial long yearning for redemption. It was a bizarre, secularist substitute for that redemption. The doctrine of constantly leading the Jewish people into confrontations with other nations is the dogma of Zionism not of the Holy Torah. We are commanded by YHWH-Elohenu to live in dignity and piety wherever Providence has so ordained.
Therefore, the People of Allah, and all Torah abiding Jews and Muslims alike, declare that the Zionist State of Israel is not the legitimate representative of the Hebrew people or the people of our Lord Most High. Our position on the ceding of land is quite simple; any Jewish sovereignty over the Holy Land before the Messianic Era is sinful and sure to lead to tragedy. And it is certainly an absurd and damnable offense to sacrifice even one human life for this illegitimate state.
But you, O Children of Yaqub (as), are like the Children of Cain, the Children of Esau. You do not merit The Mercy, nor do you retain the Barakah (Divine Blessing), of the Most High. You are they who have rejected the Torah, yet blaspheme the Name among the nations. By what merit do you profess that you have been chosen? It was your ancestors who were chosen - your ancestors who were chosen by merit.
For no one is chosen by race of tribe. No one gains favor in the eyes of YHWH by culture or ethnic affiliation. Are you now so blind as those who caste your ancestors into ovens in the lands of Cain? Would you now impose the same fate upon your own brethren; the children of Ishmael (as)?
As it is written (Micah 7:20) "You give Truth to Jacob" Truth is identical with Peace, as it is written (Esther 9:30) "Words of Peace and Truth" It is likewise written (2 Kings 20:19) "For Peace and Truth will be in my days."
But you, O Israel! Where is your Peace in these times? Peace has set upon your nation as the sun sets beyond the horizon and casts the land into darkness. Were you to merit the Attribute of Truth - invested in Abraham (as) - then you would taste Peace. But you have not and thus you will not.
It is written (Genesis 18:17) "Shall I then cover from Abraham what I am doing? Abraham is becoming a great mighty Nation, and all the Nations of the Earth will be blessed through him."
And indeed this Promise has come True just as foretold. For as the Qur'an accurately says, Abraham (as) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, he was one who lived in SUBMISSION to the Will of Allah; the One and Only God of all Faiths and traditions. For no Prophet came in the name of any God but the One and Only God. And no Prophet spoke of any religion but SUBMISSION to the One and Only God.
"We believe in Allah, and what has been sent down to us, and what has been sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and the Tribes, and in what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord. We make no difference between them." Qur'an, Sura 2:136
"In Truth He sent down to you 'The Book,' which confirmed those which proceed it: For Hu has sent down the Torah, the Gospel, aforetime, as man's Guidance; and now Hu has sent down the Furqan." Qur'an, Sura 3:3
Abraham (as) was not promised that he would give birth to a "master race." These are the notions of Cain. These are the notions of the one who has kidnapped and held our people captive in Babylon in years past. These are the notions of the infidels who murdered so many in the lands of Cain less than a century ago. Neither the Torah nor YHWH-Allah teaches of a "master race." Any who holds to this notion has learned it from their master, the Father of Lies.
The Name "Yisrael" stems etymologically from two root words; Yassar and El. Yassar means, "to follow Straight" or to "return Straight" and "El" of course is the Name of Divinity. In this context, these two words taken together mean "those who follow the Straight Path to the Divine." This of course is an inward Path, a Path that our ancient ancestors knew as "Israel."
When the Holy Prophet Moses (as) lead the 12 Tribes out of Captivity and Constriction in Egypt, he united them under the banner of this Path of SUBMISSION alone. He did not teach "Judaism" nor did he teach "Christianity." He taught that we as God's People are to SUBMIT to Hu's Law, or Torah and in so doing, "return Straight to El." When we could do this, then and only then would we be able to recognize the Mashiach.
Yet those who claim to be "Yassar-El" today are pillaging, murdering innocent men and children, extorting, and taking money from truly anti-Semitic people in controlling circles of power. They are pulling fathers off of their sons only to drive bullets into the tiny body of a helpless child. They are throwing good men out of buildings and making jokes openly about the murder they commit. They parade around with M-16's and bulldoze houses. They shoot innocents and displace families to camps not unlike those that our ancestors were held in less than a century ago. Yet they condemn and murder mere children for picking up stones in resistance to their tyranny. They are like the Philistines condemning the young David (as) for picking up his smooth stones in resistance to the wickedness of those who would terrorize the innocent for their own imagined gain.
These are the same who have murdered their own brother! Like Cain, they were called upon by YHWH-Allah to offer up a sacrifice. Like Abel, the Children of Islam have replied "Here YHWH-Allah, here is my offering of purity and devotion. I offer only to live in SUBMISSION to your Torah." Like the Holy Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo (peace be upon them all), they allowed their ego-selves to be caste into the furnaces of Babylon, offering no sacrifice of blood and flesh, only to be in the presence of the Mashiach-Met'at'ron and emerge from the flame unscathed.
And because of that, their offering was accepted. But like Cain, the Children of Isaac (as) have looked with jealousy at the favor shown by YHWH to their Brethren. Like Cain you have plotted and planned with the rejected one to murder your brother.
You, O Children of Isaac (as), have said to your Elohim, "We are the offspring of Jacob. We are the descendants of those who merited Truth. We are the offspring of those whom you chose for your Holy Work, so therefore my sacrifice is already laid upon the alter of my ancestors."
But you, O Children who call yourselves Israel, you are not who you claim. You are not what you claim. If you were then you would not act as you do. The voice of your brother cries out from the Earth for Justice. You murder and destroy yet you claim that you are YHWH's chosen. You kill children and destroy the shops of peaceful merchants, just as did the devils on the eve of Krystal Nacht.
You have become the Adversary and like the Adversary you are now given an ultimatum from the People of Allah. Cease your criminal acts of tyranny and oppression or face the Wrath of God through the hands of Hu's servants. The Ummah of the Prophet foretold in the Torah, in the Song of Solomon, and in the Injil is rising up to fight against your devilish oppression. The victims of your greed will not have died in vein. Their blood will not go unavenged.
It is the sincere desire of Islam to do everything within our power to live in peace and tranquility with the nations who have not yet opened their eyes to the Reality. Similarly, the Qur'an teaches us to respect the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab). Yet, we are also taught "Do not oppress and be not oppressed."
"And remember when Moses said to his people, 'O my people! Verily, you have sinned to your own hurt, by taking the calf to worship it: Be then turned to your Creator, and slay the guilty among you; this will be best for you with your Creator'." Qur'an, Sura 2:51
"O believers! Retaliation for bloodshed is prescribed to you... but he to whom his brother shall make any remission, is to be dealt with equitably; and to him he shall pay a fine with liberality. This is a relaxation [of the Law in the Torah] from your Lord and a Mercy." Qur'an, Sura 2:173 & 174
We are taught that it is our religious obligation to obliterate all forces of evil in this world that trample upon the rights and liberties of those who have done nothing to harm any.
We are told to first oppose within our Hearts, and then speak out with our tongues, then restrain with our hands and then finally to wage Jihad with our weapons. We have opposed in our Hearts and now you are being given your final warning. Turn in SUBMISSION to our God and your God and you will taste Paradise. Turn not and you will surely be destroyed. May all mankind be worthy of true Redemption when the "Swords Will Be Beaten into Plowshares" and Knowledge of YHWH will cover over the world as waters cover the face of the Earth. Until that Day, "think not that I come to bring peace. For I come to bring a sword."
May Allah enlighten out eyes with the Light of Hu's Torah, Gospel and Qur'an. May we see the Truth unveiled; that we are not many traditions and faiths, but rather One singular, undivided Faith, from Adam to Enoch to Noah to Abraham to Isaac and Ishmael to Moses and Aaron, to David and Solomon to Judah Maccabbee to John the Baptizer and Jesus the Messiah to Muhammad and `Ali to Al-Mahdi and Al-Masih; the Two Witnesses unto mankind in this corrupt age of decadence, downpression and unequal treatment of brother at the hand of brother.
May Peace be upon all of Allah's 124,000 Prophets, from Adam (as) to Muhammad (sal).
May Allah be well-pleased with those who serve Hu and bear Witness to the Reality unveiled
May YHWH-Allah turn us from our self-ish and ego-centered ways so that we might see the one undivided Ruach, Ruh, the Holy Spirit that lives within us ALL.
May Allah hasten the end of the apostate Anti-Christ state of Israel.
May Allah open the eye of Jews, Christian and Muslims alike.
May Allah protect Hu's People in this age of Tribulation.
May Allah protect Hu's People from the Shaiytan, the rejected one, and his Dajjal.
May Allah bring about the destruction of the infernal Babylon system in one hour.
May Allah hasten the end of suffering through the Imam's Rise.
Forward to Eden. Liban According to the Old Testament, only the Messiah can re-establish the State of Israel. So forgetting the Quran for a moment and the antagonist Zionist movement, if we were to focus on the Book of the Jews, Christians, and yes the one that Muslims too respect, modern day Israel is a sinful and illegal creation. Lets consider that too since someone, (MS maybe? I can't recall) started the religion part of the conversation :) Chocoholic Ok Liban, but what I have a hard time with, is why would people question something which was given/promised to the Jews/Israelites by god. You belive in Allah, you do not question him, so why do you question this, which has been stated in the Bible. The Israaelites were told, if you read the link I posted, that they would have to take the land by force, and if you look what was actually promised it's no where near what they have now. Liban Like I said, only the Messiah can re-create the Land of Israel. The Jews lost their privilages when they turned their back on Jesus. Thats when the temple was broken and Israel lost to them. Also Eretz Israel is a fallacy. It is based on manifestos that have little to do with religion and more to do with politics. Chocoholic But sadly once again the actions of a few have been used to justify the persecution of the many. But yes you're right, in that there were commandments laid down which said the land would be theirs only if they were followed. But it's something which can go round and round. Of course in an ideal world it should matter and all these people should learn to live together. MS Liban, I agree with what you say. However, I would suggest to save your time and energy. "They" will never, ever, ever, acknowledge that we rights of any sort. Knight, your elegent speech cannot hide a great deal of arrogance and fundamentalism. You even failed to agree with me on a solution based on 2 countries living side by side. So don't under-estimate my inteligence, and don't think you are superiour by speaking about debate. Arnie, I know what arrogance means. It is the arrogance itself to ask me to define "discussion", and then remind me of the meaning of arrogance. My English is not as good as yours, but it is good enough. MS
Live together as human beeings who all have rights and dignity, or live together after giving up parts of Egypt, all Jordan, parts of Saudi Arabia and parts of Iraq? Chocoholic MS, but the point is why do you believe that you have more rights than anyone else? That's what gets people annoyed, you're not more special than any other race, nationality, religion etc! I'm agnostic so all this stuff means absolutely nothing to me, but at least I'm trying to learn and see both sides. You fail to even look at the otherside of the picture. Liban at least gives good reason and can see both points. I suggest you stop being so arrogant! MS I was very reasonable, by speaking of a 2-nation solution. I haven't heard anyone of you agreeing even to the principle. Instead, you talk about giving up the other countries. Read my posts, and find out that there is no arrogance. Chocoholic I simply quoted from the Bible what was promised by God. So what is your issue with that? Are you questioning the word of God? Do you not believe in one of the Holy books? You failed to reply in terms of that, which only leads me to believe that you have no respect for these things. arniegang MS I asked you to define arrogance because you use this word a lot. Indeed you use the word totally out of context, and furthermore to your advantage when adressing anyone that questions or disagrees with you. Liban Great post, i'm not being rude and i have read all what you posted. But, could you summerise it for us not so knowledgeable peeps please. In particular, i didnt understand its relavance in relation to the interpretation in our Bible as quoted by Chocs. MS Choco, I believe in all books of good. I believe in the Torah and the Bible. I believe also in all Prophets of God. I believe in Prophet Moses and prophet Jesus. I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and Jesus (not my own prophet) is the one who will return to the world to save us all. Having said that, I may not believe that all your interpretations of the bible are accurate. Chocoholic Therefore can other people not feel the same way about the Koran? And fair enough of your opinion, however you seriously think there's no truth in it even though the Israelites were making their way to the promised land 2,000 years ago? MS
I have never denied you the right to do that. In our previous discussions (about the dress code) I was only trying explain what we believe in, and that we are happy with it. By no means was I trying to convince you that you should have the same belief/interpretation. Chocoholic But with respect, dress code, and land are are two completely different issues. So why do you not accept that which was written thousands of years ago? MS
Of course I believe in the story that happened 2000 years ago. I am totally with Moses and those who believed in him, and totally against Pharaoh and what he has done.
And of course, dress code and land are 2 different issues. Chocoholic Fine, in light of this, why do you have an issue whith the Jews trying to claim what if the Bible is to be believed, is rightfully theirs? Or that they believe to be theirts as promised to them by God. MS I was talking of a 2-state solution, remember, not a 1-state solution. Besides, how that what happened 2000 years ago reflects the political situation today is interpretation, not the original text. Please refer to Liban's post on this issue. MS Moreover, it is you who never agreed on a 2-state solution. So, where's your acceptance of the right for Palastenians to have their own state. Chocoholic MS, I've given direct quotes from the Bible over what was promised, I'm not interested in discussing what the Koran says on the issue. I'm just trying to understand your thinking in why you have a problem with it! Over history lands have been conquered and re-conquered. How can you have something promised then have other people deny you of it? MS Again, where's your acceptance that the Palastenians have the right in a state of their own? Chocoholic Of course they're entitled to a place of their own, but does it really have to be the same place? You just keep avoiding the question which means you're not willing to answer it. I recently went the St Catherine's Monastery in Egypt on Mount Sinai. 22 Grrek Orthodox Monks live there and it's open to all people of all faiths, there's a church and a moque in the grounds side by side. The Monastery is protected, and the Egyptian Government asked the Bishop how far the lands of the monastery stretched so it could be protected. His reply was simple, 3 days walk in any direction, which was accepted without question. So why do you question? Chocoholic Also MS, Palestinians are not the ones who experience such discrimination. Many factions refuse to acknowledge the state of Israel and if you have an Israeli passport then you're banned from entering many countries as well. Is this fair or right? MS I repeat the question to Chocoholic, Dubai Knight and Arniegang. Do you think the Palastenians have the right in an independent country of their own? MS
It is not just the St Catherine's Monastery. Egypt has a lot of churches that stand side by side to mosques. Dubai Knight
I have to take issue with you here MS, I am by far a fundamentalist and I certainly attempt not to be arrogant. Why do you think my id and avatar are based on a theme of Star Wars and the Jedi Knights? It is because I 'fundamentally' disagree with ALL earthly bound institutionalised churches...not religions. It has been the human and political involvement in religion through the power of the 'church' (I use the word as it is the best one I can find to describe the collection of power hungry, political hypocrites who endeavour to control the masses through their interpretations of any relgious meaning) that has turned the world upside down.
I take no sides and I try to see both points of view. Since I have become a member of this forum, my knowledge of the background and teachings of Islam has increased exponentially, mostly thanks to the posting here by knowledgeable people such as Liban and Shafique, and there are points that have enlightened me to issues about which I initially knew very little.
As for being superior, all I have suggested is to bring forward a solid argument for debate, based on either an a subjective or objective point of view. Liban, for instance has posted a long and very detailed description and summarised it with his explanation as to the reasons why an Israeli state should not be in existence. It is an informative 'point of debate'. I like to look at both sides of an argument before I draw any conclusions. That conclusion will be influenced by the presented facts and any personal knowledge of history, not by 'blind faith' or indoctrinated wrote. I have raised this point before with Lionheart who is wont to deliver a diatribe from a totally one sided viewpoint.
Anyone on this forum who has met me and knows me will tell you, you are making false accusation!
Knight MS
I have gone a step further than Liban, I talked about a 2-state solution. I've heard no single word accepting this. Choco is even saying do the Palastenians have to have a country in the same place? arniegang MS I totally accept that the Palastinians have a right to a home and a country or state. Everyone on this earth should have that right. But from my limited point of view, maybe its time for people to "move on". I dont see why the Arab Nations cannot resolve this amongst themselves, to everyones satisfaction. MS
I'm looking forward to meeting you! You'll be also surprised when you meet me. MS
It's hard to keep up answering all of you. But, no, the Arab Nations accept the fair 2-state solution. It was proposed by the Saudi King (Crown Prince at that time) to withdraw from all 1967 territorries and have a fair solution to the refugees' problem, and the Arab Nations shall fully recognize Israel. This proposal was fully endorsed by the Arab summit. Israel refused it. Again, this goes by far beyond what Liban says. arniegang Then is there no way the Arab Nation could not give up some of their borders to create a "state of palestine".? Dubai Knight
Why? Are you a Klingon?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Knight MS Both sides have to make compromises to live happily ever after. It is not fair to ask one party to give up everything. It is impossible for any arab leader to convince his people to give up East Jerusalem. Dubai Knight
I am not opposed to a 2 nation state at all...however it would seem that the Palestinians and the Isrealis are...so back to square one. The fundamental differences between the two different peoples here will never allow a peaceful solution in the current climate.
The argument is over the actual piece of land, an argument that has been going backwards and forwards for centuries. I cannot think of another single area on the planet that has been fought over more often than this comparatively small space. I have seen the Negev from the air and I sometimes wonder why? The answer is not the land itself, but what it stands for.
Surely the centre of the Islamic faith is based in Mecca? Correct me if I am wrong.
The fact that there are claims laid to the city of Jerusalem tells me that the faiths Islam, Christianity and Judaism must have common roots all centred about this one place. If the faiths are therefore so closely linked, why can they not find areas of common ground, which I know exist, and build an understanding from there?
The Coptic Church in Egypt has managed to do it for many centuries.
Knight MS
The holiest mosques in Islam are: the holy mosque in Mecca (Al-masjid Al-Haram), the Prophet's mosque in Medina and the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. So, the Aqsa mosque is the third holiest site in Islam.
And yes, the 3 religions are closely linked. the 10 commandments are our principles as Muslims, and as I mentioned, we believe in Jesus as the Messiah. And sure, we should be able to reach common ground. A common ground that respects the dignity of all parties. MS
You have to look at this both ways. Egypt became dominantly Muslim, and was ruled by Muslims ever since Islam entered Egypt. Muslims have managed to resepect the Coptic Church for all these centuries. kanelli
And you know what, "you" will keep stereotyping "us". What a shame.
Jews and Muslims have the right to live side by side in Israeli and Palestinian states. Each deserves a place to call home and a place to rule themselves. If the Jews are to be pushed out, where should they go? Where on Earth will they be able to live next to their holy and historical places if not Palestine?
Thanks to Hitler, the Jews realise that they need a homeland where they can survive, and many people support this because of the atrocities in WW2. I admit that it is odd how some people support a homeland for Jews so that there is no further ethnic cleansing, yet ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia and in many parts of Africa went virtually ignored or acted upon too late. In any case, no ethnic cleansing should be tolerated - Period. Having said this, the conduct of the Israelis has been disgusting and I don't agree with many of their policies for dealing with Palestinians. Despite this, terrorism on the part of some radical Palestinians just keeps making the situation worse. It is all a vicious circle.
I wish that the Palestinians and other Muslim populations that side with the Palestinians could band together as strongly and lobby as strongly as the Jewish groups do. Sorry to say, but it seems that the Jewish groups do a much better job of persuading governments and organisations to support their cause.
I am fed up with both sides not being able to solve their problems and take more aggressive steps to live in peace together. The Israel/Palestine conflict is one of the root causes for anger and separation between Muslim and non-Muslim countries because it seems that countries are lining up on different sides. This is why peace needs to come sooner than later - world security could depend on it. MS
I agree. We desperately need fair peace that is able to keep everyone happy. arniegang Nice post K :) MS
As far as I can see this post differs fundamentally from what you have been saying !!???!!! Liban Wow, leave the forums for a few hours and read through all this :P Arnie: My post basically said how Zionism in its current form goes against true Judaism because only the Messiah can rebuild the temple of Soloman according to the Old Testament and only when this temple is rebuilt can the Land of Israel come to be. However, with God having destroyed the temple because of the sins of the Jews (according to the New Testament), this is unlickly to happen (as per the Quran) and as such Israel in its current form is not a religious entity but a political one and thats the core of Zionism --> politics. The politics that created Israel were flaud, but then, show me politics that are not flaud :) To All, Israel is now a fact on the ground. We cannot take back 60 years of history no matter how badly some of us ay want to. Israeli Zionists need to give up there politically and NOT religiously based concept of Eretz Israel and as such the Arabs are more than willing to return to 1967 geographic boundries and live in peace. This was the core of the 2002 Beirut Declaration and the declarations in every Arab Summit since then. There are parties, on both sides, that do not want to listen and that have no internest in peace. But what has war given us??? STALEMATE after STALEMATE... For all its might, Israel and its local puppet (the USA) have not been able to defeat the Arabs, and the Arabs have not defeated their common ennemy. So no checkmate. There are two roads, mutually assured destruction (endless war) or peace. Many Arabs and Israelis would select the latter I am sure. There are many ways to acheive a just peace but the parties involved need to convince the USA to be fair and the US has to want to be fair and to push and priod both sides. Bloth sides also need to accept the EU and Russia as these two entities have just as much interest in MENA peace as the US does. The USA needs to allow those two parties to participate and Israel needs to stop balking at the idea. But I have blabbered enough now I think :D Also, DK may be a Sci-Fi geek, but he is NOT a fundamentalist in any other sense.... MS Liban, I totally agree with what you say. As I (and you) have said, the Arab leaders are willing to go for a 2-state solution and recognize Israel. This was rejected. Also you can't count much on the justice of governments. What shocked me is the position of ordinary Westerners. Many of them (at least on this forum) are against the 2-state solution. In other words, they are with the 2-state solution, but they want Palestine to be placed somewhere else!!!????!!!! Lionheart
[qoute]In response to Lionhearts post, the lands in question were actually disputed long before the Islamic faith was born. (I refer to Chocs quotation from the bible) and were originally a part of the lands of King David, of the line of Soloman and Abraham, an interesting reason as to why Jesus was originally persecuted by the Romans, who occupied the region at the time of his birth, as he was supposed to be of 'the line of David' and therefore consituted a political threat to their occupancy and the stability of the area.[/qoute]
Before Muslims from Arabia came to the land the people who controlled the land were Romans and their subjects were Jews and Christians...no muslims lived in Palastine, because Islam and religion was only less than 100 years old...but people who we refer to Palastinian today if you check genitically are much much much closer to the hebrews and Christians who lived in Palastine when Omar( may allah be pleased with him) conquered the Palastine 650 A.D. Palastinian population is closer to genetically to original Hebrews and canaanites who lived in Palastine than the Jews who migrated from Europe or other parts of the world. Islam is a faith not a race, so Palastinians before they were muslims were either Jews or Christians or Roman Pagans or Canaanite Pagans, just like Saudis before Islam came to them they were either Pagans or Jews...but after Islam came they either converted quickly or converted with process of time. The Jews today claiming God promised us Palastine today have no relations. These Jews of genetic relations to anyone in Middle east including Jews in Middle east...they are nothing more than Europeans who converted to Judism. If God promised people land than why hasn't Jews in Middle East taken claim to Palastine before ww1. Why were Jews in Palastine satisfied and felt protected living under Muslim Sultanate of Jerusalam for over 1000 years. If God truelly promised them Palastine, than they would have risen up against the Romans and Muslims and the 80 years the Christian Crusaders controlled Palastine. Why did it take Jews from Europe riding on the sympathy and backing of European imperlist to establish Isreal. If it only takes God promised me this land than surely I or anyone this World could claim anyones house or land by justifying it "God promised us this land or house". And how could god promise people a land that is not their's...a land already inhabited by people...surely god does not condone theift. Lionheart
Isrealites have spite on every prophet God has sent them..so why would God promise a land to people who have not been greatful to God almighties deeds... Lionheart
In my holy book The Qoran which hasn't been corrupted by man for 1400 years clearly stats God never promised Jews any land and God certainly promises no one a land. sharewadi
No it wasn't, at least not right away, it was overshadowed by the contribution from Hamas in Netanya which they later claimed was designed to scupper the peace talks in Beirut. Which it did.
Jordanian foreign minister said

Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres agreed and said

Whenever the parties get close to peace, there always seems to be some extremist element that screws it up. The example above. Yitzak Rabin shot by extremist Jew. And so on.
I think I read one question in this topic regarding other Arab countries providing land for Palestinians. I don't see that as translating into many westerners being against the two-state solution. I don't even know any westerners against the two-state solution.
What government justice are you looking for? The two-state solution was agreed in principle years ago. It's the implementation that is proving intractable. Mostly because of the contributions from extremists. Lionheart
Muslims and Jews have lived side by side for over 1000 years. Jews have enjoyed more protection in muslim land than anywhere in the World before the creation of Isreal. I have absolutely no problem with Muslims and Jews living side by side...but what I have problem with is an European Jew coming to Palastine to claim the land as his/hers.
Jews and Muslims have the right to live side by side in Israeli and Palestinian states. Each deserves a place to call home and a place to rule themselves. If the Jews are to be pushed out, where should they go? Where on Earth will they be able to live next to their holy and historical places if not Palestine?
[qoute]Thanks to Hitler, the Jews realise that they need a homeland where they can survive, and many people support this because of the atrocities in WW2. I admit that it is odd how some people support a homeland for Jews so that there is no further ethnic cleansing, yet ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia and in many parts of Africa went virtually ignored or acted upon too late. In any case, no ethnic cleansing should be tolerated - Period. Having said this, the conduct of the Israelis has been disgusting and I don't agree with many of their policies for dealing with Palestinians. Despite this, terrorism on the part of some radical Palestinians just keeps making the situation worse. It is all a vicious circle[/qoute]
If Europeans felt sorry for Jews than why didn't they give Jews a homeland in European were this Jews belong. Why are the Palastinians who had nothing to do with Hitler and extermination of Jews the ones who have to evicted of their land to accommedate the jewish homeland. The Palastinians have lived in Palastine as long as history...even DNA supports Palastinian claim that this land is their ancestral land, so why have they been evicted the land of their forefathers, to please people who they have never wronged...matter fact Jews had more right in Palastine than in anywhere in Europe before the establishment of Isreal. European Jews with help of the West used might to conquer the Palastinians and subdue clueless leaders Arabs. But as they say history is bond to repeat itself...and this is certainly true in this case. Remember the Christian crusaders conquered Palastine for 80 years to establish their Kingdom of Heaven, muslims were only able to regain Palastine when they were able unite..in this case its only matter of time when the Zoinist dream of Isreal comes crumpling down... sharewadi
Yes, if you have the biggest guns :? ...

Or when the demographics change so the Israeli Arabs get the majority vote - they have more children than Israeli Jews. Lionheart
You are wasting you time if you think right wing Christians are going to support a Palastinian state...The right wing Christians believe God promised Jews land from the nile to Euphrates...from Sudan to Iraq..basically. This is why Choco and arniega are always anti Muslim... because Islam stands in their way of totally domnination.
The messieh of the Jews like the messieh of Evengical Christians is none other than Dajjal.... Lionheart
Palastinian have their own land...Palastine whom the imperlist European ridding themself of Jews gave to Zoinist Jews.
Why didn't European give up parts of their lands if they felt sorry or Jews...afterall is they who have committed crimes against the Jews not Arab or Muslims? Hitler was Christian and European...not a middleastern and muslim and most certainly he was not a Palastinian. Liban
Choco is an athiest, her choice of athiesm may or may not be ideal but she is not a Christian fundamentalist.
Arnie is not all that religioius from what I picked up.
Anti-Muslim? While I doubt they are embracing Islam and Muslims on a daily basis, I would not characterise them as anti-Muslim.
As for fanatical Christians, well such people (like Bush) have been brainwashed by the zionist lobby.
As for the messiah of the Jews, yes, it is Dajjal. Roman Cathlics, Greek Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, etc all support that claim. Dajjal is the anti-Christ for all who are not sure and it is this anti-Christ who the Jews will think of as their savior and embrace on the End of Days. The Jews did not recognize Jesus 2000 years ago and turned their backs on him, they will do the same when they turn their backs on Jesus's return and embrace Dajjal (anti-Christ).
This is written and beleived by 3 billion people (plus) worldwide. Lionheart A Warrant for Genocide
Too Many Palestinians: "Gaza's high birth rate has made the political problem more intractable...breeding... suicide bombers." Source: Walter Laqueur, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Washington D.C. writing in "This Isn't the Time for Peace," Wall Street Journal, March 27, 2002
The IronWall
In 1923, radical Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky-- spiritual father of not only of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin but of Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane-- wrote that the "sole way" for Jews to deal with Arabs in Palestine was through "total avoidance of all attempts to arrive at a settlement"-which Jabotinsky euphemistically termed the "iron wall" approach. Not coincidentally, a picture of Jabotinsky graces Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's desk. Source: The Village Voice, "Death Wish in the Holy Land," Dec. 12, 2001
Wall Sreet Journal Columnist Calls for Bombings, Kidnappings and Torture of Palestinians
In an editorial in the august Wall Street Journal, the flagship publication of America's corporate elite, Israeli columnist Hillel Halkin called for bombing, kidnapping and torturing Palestinians:
"I can make careful use of the intelligence at Israel's disposal to identify, locate and kill...with minimal loss of innocent life, by such means as booby-trapping their telephones, rocketing their cars and offices, etc. In a word, assassinate them. Sounds good to me.
"...hold a trial with the help of witnesses similary abducted from the Palestinian territories. If necessary it (Israel) should apply physical pressure (a euphemism for torture) to these witnesses..." The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 2001, p. A14.
Rabbi Calls for Genocide of Arabs
[size=12]During a sermon preceding the 2001 Passover holiday, the influential Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef exclaimed: "May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them." He added: "It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones." Source: Ha'aretz April 12, 2001[/size]
Israeli Minister in Sharon's Cabinet Wants All Palestinians Expelled
Israeli Minister Rechavam Ze'evi, who took his place in Ariel Sharon's cabinet March 7, 2001, a former Israeli army major-general, wants the 3 million Palestinians expelled from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Ze'evi is the founder of the Moledet party.
Joining him in Sharon's cabinet is the Russian-Jewish immigrant Avigdor Lieberman, the new infrastructure minister. The leader of a political party, Mr Lieberman has called for Israel to bomb Egypt's Aswan dam.
Ze'evi will push for the invasion of Palestinian-ruled towns to end the resistance. He "wants to cleanse the West Bank of Palestinians. The Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza have to be transferred..." He has been drawing up battle scenarios for Sharon, and has joined Lieberman in demanding assurances that Mr Sharon will invade the West Bank and Gaza Strip. He also wants the army to unleash attack dogs on Palestinian demonstrators.
Source: Suzanne Goldenberg, The Guardian (London). March 7, 2001
Statements by the Founders of Zionism and the Israeli State
"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."-Rafael Eitan, chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, quoted in Yediot Ahronot, April 13, 1983, and The New York Times, April 14, 1983.
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,1982.
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."-Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum."
"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."-Uri Lubrani, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs. Source: "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.
"...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary."-Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From "Israel: an Apartheid State" by Uri Davis, p. 5.
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."-Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."-Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, "Complete Diaries," June 12, 1895 entry.
Jewish Racism and Terorrism According to Rabbi Ginsburg
Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated, "The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable."
The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it. Source: Yitzhak Ginsburg, "Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged"
Rabbis Place Curse in a Midnight Ceremony in an Israeli Cemetery
ACRE, OCCUPIED PALESTINE - Ultra-orthodox Lubavitch activist Meir Baranes placed a Kabbalistic curse on Pope John Paul II. Three Jewish ultra-orthodox "haredim" took part in the pulsa de nura ("lashes of fire") ceremony in a cemetery. Footage from the rite was broadcast on Israeli Channel 2 television on Monday, March 20. Observers suspect that the ceremony was staged in cooperation with Channel 2, which denied the charge.
Baranes, 32, was alleged to have initiated the ceremony. He is suspected of belonging to a Jewish terrorist organization. Baranes said he and the others were followers of the late Lubavitcher Rabbi, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, a favorite of former Pres. Ronald Reagan. Reagan made the Lubavitch rabbi's birthday "Education Day USA" by public law. The Lubavitch are highly praised by the US media, including NY Times religion editor Peter Steinfels. The Lubavitch operate hundreds of hate sites on the world wide web. On some of these Jesus Christ is defamed and insulted. The Hasidic Lubavitch sect was founded in the 18th century by Rabbi Shneur Zalman whose book, "Tanya" decrees that all non-Jews are "supernal refuse."
"It is a shame for the Jewish people to go crawling to the gentile pope," Baranes said. Baranes's has published leaflets saying that the late Schneerson is God (the Lubavitch believe Schneerson was the Messiah). He has conducted numerous cursing ceremonies.
The midnight rite, which Israeli TV Channel 2 said was enacted last Thursday, March 16 in a cemetery in Safed, recalled rabbinical curses cast on prime minister Yitzhak Rabin prior to his 1995 assassination by Yigal Amir. Participants in the cemetery sounded ritual calls on ceremonial ram's horns. They also singled out Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat and Syrian President Hafez Assad for curses. Source: Jerusalem Post | March 23, 2000 and wire services.
We will take a child for a child, Israelis say
Tension rose anew after an outburst by Israeli Foreign Minister, David Levy, in which he threatened to kill "child for child" if guerrillas rocketed Israeli border towns.
The Lebanese leader Selim al-Hoss, described the Israeli official as "evil" and "afflicted by racism and arrogance." Mr Levy, looking flushed and angry, told the Israeli Knesset that the Jewish nation would retaliate "blood for blood, soul for soul, child for child" if Hizbollah guerrillas in south Lebanon fired on Israel's northern border towns.
It was not the minister's first outburst in recent days. Earlier in February he threatened to make the soil of Lebanon "burn" in the event of a Hizbollah attack. Levy's behaviour added to indignation generated by the Israeli assault on Lebanon on 8 February, when Israeli jets bombed three power stations, injuring at least 15 civilians.
Lebanon's Selim al-Hoss replied: "The children of Lebanon whom Levy is threatening to kill will remain the torch of the resistance that cannot be extinguished by hate or terrorised by aggression. Their innocence will remain the light which eliminates the darkness of the sick spirits and exposes their bad intentions." Source: The Independent Feb. 25 2000
"Saint Goldstein": Jewish Holy Book Praises Mass Murderer of Palestinian Civilians.
JERUSALEM - Four former members of the Rabbi Meir Kahane's Kach Party distributed a book in praise of Jewish mass murderer Baruch Goldstein.
The four - Michael Ben-Chorin, Netanel Uzari, Yoel Lerner, and Yosef Dayan - issued the book in honor of Goldstein who slaughtered 40 Palestinian men and boys while they knelt in prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque at Hebron's Machpela Cave, on Purim 1994. (Purim is the Jewish commemoration of vengeance against non-Jews).
The book, Baruch Hagever ("The Blessed Man"), has sold thousands of copies among Jews, and includes an article written by Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, the head of an Israeli yeshiva (religious school). Ginsburg's article "sings the praises" of the killer and calls Goldstein, a 'saint.' "The entire book is indeed full of his praises. It should be noted that no Israeli rabbi (including the 'moderates' among them) has said a word against the contents of the book."
Ginsburg declares in Baruch Hagever that what Goldstein did in murdering the unarmed Palestinian civilians at their house of worship, constitutes, "a fulfillment of a number of commands of Jewish religious law...Among his (Goldstein's) good deeds, as enumerated, are...taking revenge on non-Jews, extermination of the non-Jews who are from the seed of Amalek...and the sanctification of the Holy Name.
"The murders have led, in the rabbi's opinion, to...clear knowledge among the Jews that 'the life of a Jew is preferable to the life of a non-Jew'...
"Goldstein is indeed being worshipped as a saint in (the Jewish settlement ) Kiryat Arba. His intercession before God is asked by pilgrims and it is reported that he cures the ill and generally helps those Jews who ask his help."
Sources: Ma'ariv, October 11, 1996; Jerusalem Post, November 12, 1996; Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, January, 1997.
Rabbi Sanctions Killing to Keep Jewish Race Pure
The Israeli Chief Rabbi of the Sephardim, Eliahu Bakshi Doron, in a radio broadcast on Tuesday, July 9, 1996, praised the Biblical figure Phinehas for having killed the Israelite Zimri, because Zimri had sex with a Midianite woman. Rabbi Doron said that Phinehas had committed a "pure" act. He then referred to Zimri as "the first reform Jew."
Reform Jews allow inter-marriage between Jewish persons and those of non-Jewish extraction, a form of integration long condemned by Orthodox Jews. A leader of the Reform Jews, Uri Regev, called for a criminal investigation of the chief rabbi, saying that Rabbi Doron's sanction of the murder of Reform Jews should be prosecuted.
The Israeli Who Allegedly Scalded Moshe Dayan's Daughter was Previously Convicted of Murdering a Palestinian
Yisrael Lederman, who was sentenced by a military court to 20 years in prison for killing a Palestinian, is suspected of throwing boiling water on Member of the Knesset Yael Dayan, while she was touring Hebron on Oct. 22, 1996.
Yediot Aharonot reports that Lederman had only served two years of his murder sentence when then Israeli Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan, who once compared Palestinians to "cockroaches scurrying in a bottle," pardoned and released him. Two years later, Lederman snatched a baby out of the arms of a Palestinian mother .
Rabbi Hecht, President of the Rabbinical Alliance of America, Praises Mass Murderer and Orders Assassination
Rabbi Avraham Hecht, chief rabbi of the Congregation Sha'are Zion in Flatbush, New York and until recently the president of the Rabbinical Alliance of America, a national organization of 540 Orthodox rabbis, called for the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and praised Baruch Goldstein, who slaughtered forty Palestinian civilians while they knelt in prayer at a mosque.
Of Goldstein, Rabbi Hecht said, "I think Goldstein is a great man, a holy man," Hecht says. "If I ever visit [Hebron], I'm going to visit his grave."
Rabbi Hecht's assassination decree was issued on June 19, 1995 in the basement of a Manhattan synagogue, during a meeting of the International Rabbinical Coalition (IRC) , a 3,000-member international organization founded in 1993 to encourage the mass expulsion of the Palestinian people from their land.
Hecht, a member of the IRC's eight-person American rabbinic steering committee, declared that returning any part of Israeli territory seized from the Palestinians is a violation of Jewish religious law. Hence, assassinating Rabin--"and all who assist him"--is not only permissible, but necessary.
In his own defense, Rabbi Hecht stated, "All I said was that according to Jewish law, any one person--you can apply it to whoever you want--any one person who willfully, consciously, intentionally hands over human bodies or human property or the human wealth of the Jewish people to an alien people is guilty of the sin for which the penalty is death.
"And, according to Maimonides--you can quote me--it says very clearly, if a man kills him, he has done a good deed."
Cf. Robert Friedman, New York, "The Rabbi Who Sentenced Yitzhak Rabin to Death," October 9, 1995. Lionheart
Anti-Muslim Hate Flyers Distributed by Russian Jewish Immigrant in Hebron
Supporters of the Islamic Movement staged demonstrations in the Galilee and the Negev June 29 to protest against leaflets posted in Hebron depicting the founder of the Islamic religion, the Prophet Mohammed, as a pig writing the Koran, the Muslim's sacred scripture.
Palestinian shows reporters one of the anti-Muslim hate flyers distributed by a Russian-Jewess
More demonstrations are to take place today, June 30, and a delegation led by Sheikh Abdallah Nimr Darweesh, is due to visit Hebron.
Ibrahim Sarsur, a leader of the Islamic Movement, said that if Israeli police allow, the Palestinians plan to hold a demonstration outside the Prime Minister's Office in Jerusalem, following the visit to Hebron.
"We...expect the country's religious leaders, such as Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and the country's chief rabbis, as well as the political echelon from all sides to denounce this blasphemy," said Sarsur.
"There was an outcry when Jewish Orthodox haredim (hasidim) burned an Israeli flag. We expect Israelis generally to also denounce these posters and those behind them. There is nothing more sacred to Moslems than the Prophet Mohammed and the Koran. These are the holiest symbols of our faith," said Sarsur, who is also head of the Kafr Kassem local council.
Sarsur warned that such hate crimes by "extremists calling themselves Jews" could ignite the whole region and not just inflame passions in the territories, if they were not stopped immediately and harsh measures taken against the perpetrators.
Meanwhile, 25-year-old Tatiana Sosskind, a Jewish immigrant from Russia, arrested Saturday night on suspicion of posting the leaflets in Hebron, had her remand extended by five days by Jerusalem Magistrate's Court. Sosskind is a follower of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane who declared that hating Arabs is a command of the Talmud (cf. CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").
The court was told that Sosskind had posted the hate-literature on the houses of local Palestinian residents. The Israeli police at first refused to arrest her, and gave the excuse that because it was close to the Jewish Shabbat (sabbath), it was decided not to arrest her but to wait until after Shabbat, Insp. Yitzhak Shilo testified in court.
But on Saturday afternoon, Shilo said, Sosskind threw a stone at a Palestinian's car and damaged it, and she was subsequently arrested.
But other sources testified that by then, the Israeli media had gotten a hold of the leaflet story and the police were forced to arrest the Russian-Jewess.
In asking for the remand, Shilo told Judge Shulamit Dotan that there is fear that Sosskind will not appear for future court hearings. Sosskind is a notorious anti-Muslim bigot and Inspector Shilo cited a previous case in 1994, when Sosskind committed a hate crime against the Palestinians, was subsequently arrested and sentenced to serve 60 hours of community service work, but "disappeared."
Sosskind, a Jerusalem resident who immigrated to occupied Palestine from the former Soviet Union six years ago, told reporters that she had depicted Mohammed as a pig because, "This is my response to the behavior of Arabs in Hebron. If their religion allows them to act like this, then he (Mohammed) is really a pig."
Her lawyer, Baruch Ben-Yosef, said that Sosskind was not arrested after she posted the hate-leaflets because it was clear the leaflets were satirical and not serious. He said she was detained only after media reports exaggerated the incident. Sosskind did not speak during the hearing.
[Sources: Private e-mail from an informant at Beir Zeit University in Hebron; "Jerusalem Post," June 30, 1997, Associated Press, June 30, 1997]. sharewadi Good grief! The phrase "Seek and you shall find" comes to mind. If you want to search for extremist comments, you'll find them. What was the point? For every comment like that from Jews, you can find one equally inflammatory against them and/or the west. Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) was on his pedestal recently for example. No wonder the conflict goes on and on... Why don't you look for something encouraging? Like the story of the Palestinian climbing Mt Everest with two Israelis (amongst other nationalities) right now. Lionheart
Every thread that had positive things to say about Islam and Arab Unity...these two always managed to disrupt the thread with their negatives assumption of Islam and Arab Unity. Lionheart
If muslims said anything remotely close to what the Zoinist said about Muslims and Arabs..especially muslims leader or muslim Sheikh.. they would be criticized, threatened with invation, called biggots, etc...but when Isreal leaders and Rabbis call for the extrimnation of Arabs and muslims, call Arabs rats, insects that must be crushed, etc...no Western media does not even bother to report...but yet When the leaders of Iran calls for the same thing Isreali leaders called for and have done to Palastine he is labelled a dangerous man that most be stopped, lunatic, genocidal meniac, Jew hater,etc. Why is one sides genocide and threats ignored, while the others side threats are seen as dangerous and real.

BS; If Ahmedjad and Iranian regime were anti jews, they would have certainly started with exterminating their 50000 local Jews and they would have never welcomed a Orthodax Jews to Iran.
The Orthodox Jewish response to the criticism of the Iranian President
(statement for Al Q'uds Day)
28 October 2005
With the help of the Almighty.
Orthodox Jews the world over, are saddened by the hysteria which has greeted the recent stated desire of the Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to see a world free of Zionism. This desire is nothing more than a yearning for a better, more peaceful world. It is a hope that with the elimination of Zionism, Jews and Muslims will live in harmony as they have throughout the ages, in Palestine and throughout the world.
It is a dangerous distortion, to see the President’s words, as indicative of anti-Jewish sentiments. The President was simply re-stating the beliefs and statements of Ayatollah Khomeini, who always emphasized and practiced the respect and protection of Jews and Judaism. The political ideology of Zionism alone was rejected. President Ahmadinejad stressed this distinction by referring only to Zionism, not Judaism or the Jewish people, regardless of whether they reside in Palestine or else were.
We concur!!… Orthodox Jews have always prayed and till today, continually pray for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of the Zionist state. As per the teachings of the Torah, the Jewish law, the Jewish people are required to be loyal, upstanding citizens, in all of the countries where-in they reside. They are expressly forbidden to have their own entity or state in any form or configuration, in this Heavenly decreed exile. Furthermore, the exemplification of one-self, with acts of compassion and goodness, is of the essence of Judaism. To subjugate and oppress a people, to steal their land, homes and orchards etc. is of the cardinal sins, of the basics crimes, forbidden by the Torah.
We have long stood together with the suffering Palestinian people in their struggle for self determination and respect. Based on our religious teachings, we believe it is impossible that any lasting peace can be achieved, for so long as the state of Israel exists. It is towards this goal of true reconciliation that religious Jews strive; via Palestinian statehood, so that we can once again reside in harmony and brotherhood.
May we merit to see the fruition of our prayers. Ultimately we pray for the day when all mankind will recognize the One G-g and serve Him in harmony. May this come upon us in the near future. Amen.
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta International
Jews United Against Zionism
914-262-8342 Chocoholic Kanelli, Great post. MS, of course I agree with the 2 state idea. Lionheart, I simply asked MS a simple question which he failed time and again to answer and just blanked it everytime, so therefore there is simply no acknowledgement of understanding of what I'm. Plus why should the Koran be untainted by man? It was written by man was it not, therefore anything written by the hand of man will be biased to one perspective or another. I'm hardly anti-muslim my friend, you just interpret things that way. You come across as anti-christian, anti-jew, anti-western as you shoot down everything we say or ask. I;m simply trying to understand, even Liban gets that! Plus I do not understand why people focus only on the last 60 years, these issues go back much further. And has been stated before if arabs are so concerned for their Palestinian brothers, why do they do nothing to help them? Is it a case of out of sight out of mind? As I've said before religion is not for me as it causes so many problems as is clearly stated in this forum. As far as I'm concerned, Human Beings have a right to call somewhere and to live whereever they want so long as it;s in peace with others - an unreachable ideology? Maybe! But nothing will be solved until the bickering stops, and it's people like you with your constant, we deserve this and that blah blah blah that keep it going. No-one deserves anything more than anyone else, but those who gain, work for it and club together for the benefit of others, it's really as simple as that! It's about time people stopped whining about what they have or haven't got and started working together and helping each other out. And yes achievements such as the Palestinian and Israeli mountain climbers is fantastic, do you think these guys give a hoot about their nationality? No! They're just getting on with it and proving what they can achieve by working together. I don't subscribe to any religion, and contrary to Liban, sorry make I'm not athiest, I'm agnostic, there's a difference. I believe more in spirituality and the enlightenment of people. And yeah DK is right, Jedi is the way to go. kanelli
Give me a break. How many people read the article you posted? Even the Danish cartoons went unnoticed by the majority of the Muslim world until half a year later. If the comments are very public, it catches the public's attention. It is true that there is a media bias, but it works for and against both sides.
I agree with sharewadi - anyone can find comments from extremists to use an example. Liban I, as well as many, have heard that that true non-politically motivated Ultra-Orthodox Jews disapprove of Zionism because of its political motivations. I have heard of the visit because I saw it on BBC. So it is not all that obscure :) I must be quick to point out that these group of Rabbis are in the minority because of the unfortunate politization of Judaism. I must admit that it is true that Iran has a decent sized Jewish population and they are not as choked off as one would like to think. The Iranian policy (good or bad) is directed at political Judaism and not Jews per sae. Like I said, I neither want to get into condoning or condeming this because it would be pointless to start a flame war (and we know it will start one). I can say that there is a need to get along in this world and that the core of Islam means Peace. Peace is true Islam, Peace is what Islam seeks and Peace is what Muslims need to impose on themselves and others. I say impose because it is a necessary must. At the end of our live''s people, we will be judged (if you beleive in the scriptures) and no matter how much wealth, land, or power we may have had on this world, it will mean absolutly nothing to the man upstairs. Our merits will be our rise or downfall. God... Whats with my endless rambling???? :oops: :shock: :oops: :shock: sharewadi
Like I said, there's plenty of extremist comments on both sides if you look for them. Do you want to be right or do you want a solution that BOTH sides could tolerate? arniegang Far from it that i am anti-muslim. In contrast i find it most interesting. MS
Hi Chocoholic,
When answering your question I tried to be as diplomatic as possible, to avoid any further flaming. I tried to answer. I agree in general to what Liban has said in his original post on this subject. The original bible is the word of God. Of course. Interpretations may be wrong though. In any case, I would never agree to give up the lands you referred to in your post.
Furhermore, I was the first to mention the 2-state idea. So the question is not really relevant to me.
Having said that, what I wanted to say is let's focus on a political solution that is practical, and is able to keep all parties happy.
As of our belief, the Koran is the book of God (just like the bible). Our beloved Prophet and his companions memorized it. Later it got written on paper. Bottom line, there is, and has been, only one single version of the Koran. The Koran that I have today is precisely the same Koran that was around 14 hundred years ago. It was never revised.
A final word on your note on our ability to lobby and solve problems. You hit the point. We are so bad at this. It is just ridiculous to go out and demonstrate by burning flags and whatsoever, then return home with empty hands. I condemn these immature acts. there is a long way we need to go in terms of getting ourselves heard, in terms of being able to lobby and solve our own problems. Thanks for the hint. Lionheart
Please point out to me were I have been anti- Christian and I will apologize. About being anti- Western, I think I have clearly stated that I'm anti Western Influence in Mid east and Most of the Muslim world. I'm against Westerners telling other how to live, what is moral, what is right, what country could posses, sometimes determining what countries leaders. I also don't think I'm alone in appossing this, their plenty of people in South America,Asia, and Africa that feel the same way I feel and most of this people are not even muslim.
Choco Why is it that when someone in Mid East or South America apposses Western Domination he/she is demonized as Anti-Western..x. Hugo Chavex, Ahmedjad. But multinational corporations who take advantage of the poor people in South America, Oil corporations who have warmonging government( AKA Bush, Blair) to wage war to steal the little natural resources people in Mid east have, are seen saviors, liberators, etc. kanelli And what are "Western" values? Chocoholic MS, Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions, I very much appreciate it as it helps me understand where you're coming from and now I have a much better idea at understanding your point of view, which of course is valid and justified. Lionheart - :roll: I give up! Liban
Many tend to associate western values with those espoused by the US and to a lesser degree the EU.
Because of the arrogance of the US and the feeble approach of the EU towards the Americans, this has created the notion of "anti-westernism". The villification of Venezuela's Chavez or Brazil's Lula because of their stance towards nationlizing state industries and/or limiting cooperation with the US (as is their right as sovereign nations) doesn't help the case of the Americans...
Hell, the Americans even villify Canada on occasion as they did during the Second Gulf War because the Canadian PM didn't want to involve his country as was his just right in an immoral action.
OK, but I am blabbering now so I will stop :)
Kanelli, my answer was in the 1st paragraph. The rest is all me "venting". 8) kanelli But Liban, you didn't really answer what the values are specifically, and perhaps why they are deemed "evil". I understand what you are saying in general, but I wanted to get more specific in this discussion. It isn't only up to you to answer, anyone can have a crack at it. Liban OK, I will let others speak. I hope you will get some coherent answers. :) kanelli Okay, for example. Do some of you mean capitalism, consumerism, democracy? Liban
I so much want to speak on this... But I promosed to let the stage for others...
Me and my promisses... :roll: arniegang Liban This is a process of understanding - both ways We would like to hear your views sharewadi



I would expect Christians to view those statements as anti-Christian - Christians don't regard Jesus as a prophet.
Hitler was hardly a Christian except perhaps in his own mind (and maybe extremist groups like the KKK - but I don't think they call themselves Christian do they?).

Yes, opposing western domination sounds like a clear explanation of being anti-Western to me :).

Yes, well, oil corporations are generally western run. Bush, Blair are westerners. They're hardly likely to demonise themselves. Just as Ahmadinejad, Chavez are hardly likely to try and find fault with their own actions and points of view. Those two statements you made make sense to me, I don't see a contradiction. Your second statement quoted sounds like you are anti-Western but you already said you are (I think) so all its doing is reinforcing your POV. sharewadi Hmmm, perhaps that last sentence should go under Western Capitalism... Liban Democracy (USA): The people have the right to vote. But the loser of the election can use his family, clout, and money to contest and win despite having less votes. Also its a choice between tweedle-dumb and tweedle-do.... sharewadi
Ah yes, I forgot that bit :mrgreen:... kanelli Great posts guys, I got a kick out of them. :lol:
Seriously though, I think that many values are human values and citizens of countries might favour some of these values more than others - fluctuating year by year. For example, Russia had communism and now seems to want to rush right into capitalism :) Many countries believe in democracy, yet it is practised in many different ways :) The US is a great example of that. It pretends to have a "pure" democracy, but there are many flaws in the system that prevent ideal results (). They have that strange Electoral College system that seems to have more significant disadvantages than advantages () Also, democracy seems to work best when the voting population are educated, able to critically analyse what is propaganda and what isn't, care enough about the country as a whole (not just their local politics), and everyone turns out to vote. Also, there should be no technical problems, manipulation or unfair practises when the voting is being conducted. (That's a given.)
Basically, I don't think that some values can necessarily be labelled as "Western".
Okay, I don't know if I am making any sense. Time to go eat something and get off this computer :) MS
No problem Chocs. It's too bad that our first discussion was on such controversial issues. I'm sure there are lots of other issues in life we agree upon.
Cheers ... Lionheart
There is nothing anti Christian about saying Hitler was a Christian..since he practised the religion of the Christians. If you could provide me with statements or facts that proof hitler did not practise Christianity than..I will apologize to Christians.
I don't think I'm anti-Christian when I disrespect the Evengical Christians or anti Jew when I disrespect the Zoinist Jews...because these groups plotted and disrespected my deen and Allah and his messengers. I will apologize to the average Jew who lumped with the Zoinist.
Issa(pbuh) might be god to the Christians, but to us muslims he is a mere messenger of God, man just like any other...except that he was a messenger of God and therefor was best of man. If this is Anti Christians to Christian believers than saying the prophet is god is Anti Muslim to muslims.
If you believe oppossing Western domination is anti Western...than I suppose you would be okey if China was allowed to tell what government, what weapons, what economic system, what culture the west should have...also I suppose you would be okey with Dubia company owning and running your ports...but unfortunately people in the west are not..but they are okey with their Military having bases in Mide East, their government imposing their will on weaker people around the world. If I'm anti Western, than I suppose you are anti the rest of the World.. MS sharewadi, there is a huge difference between being against Western domination and being anti-Western. Yes, we are against Western domination. We should live together in peace and harmony. However, we have the right to protect our own interests and push our own agenda ....without hurting others. Concord Lots of stuff being said. Please anyone who was there or knows anyone who was there when "GOD" promised anything to anyone (muslim, jew, christian, et. al.) please raise your hand. Otherwise... sharewadi
Well, he was responsible for a few deaths in a manner most Christians would have a problem with. If you don't, that's your POV but I don't think many Christians would agree with it.

I have no idea what your point is.

Yes, I assume Muslims and Christians would agree with that.

My ports :shock: ? When/where did I claim ownership? Anyway, not everyone had a problem with that. Even Bush welcomed DP World ownership of US ports.
MS: quite right. sharewadi
Well, he was responsible for a few deaths in a manner most Christians would have a problem with. If you don't, that's your POV but I don't think many Christians would agree with it.

I have no idea what your point is.

Yes, I assume Muslims and Christians would agree with that.

My ports :shock: ? When/where did I claim ownership? Anyway, not everyone had a problem with that. Even Bush welcomed DP World ownership of US ports.
MS: quite right.



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