Dubai Forums archive (old posts) - to navigate to the current version click Dubai Forums
Dubai Expat Help Dubai Chat Dubai Romance Dubai Auto Cars for sale in Dubai Dubai High Tech Dubai Guide Share your flat in Dubai Accommodation in Dubai Jobs in Dubai Available Professionals in Dubai Learn Arabic Philosophy Forum
Dubai Expat Forum - Philosophy and Religion Forums

Latest madness in the UK


rvp_legend
If you read back, i said "Many" Not all, not majority.
and yes, you are right ther are many who are fighting their cause.
look what i found from you :


and :

All the comments were in complete disregard of root causes.
i rest my case.
kanelli No RVP, you assumed incorrectly and still don't see it. I have stated clearly in other threads that I did not support the invasion of Iraq at all, and implied none of what you said in my previous post. And you do many Europeans and North Americans a disservice by saying they aren't aware of the injustices faced in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, and Afghanistan. There are many Europeans and North Americans fighting to get things changed with their governments' foreign policies as well as sending aid and volunteering their own time to Arab/Muslim causes. GSRider No it's not as simple as that, you have the larger community already suspicious of the Muslims and this is making it even worse. Chocoholic I don't think that's the point that's being made at all. It's about raising awareness within the muslim community and the fact they must start taking responsibility to stamp out radicalism. Not madness at all, just common sense really. GSRider Well our Home Secretary this week had a meeting with 'Muslim Community Leaders' to tell them that they should keep an eye on their kids for any suspicious behaviour that might lead to them becoming 'radicalised'. So despite saying that all Muslims in the UK were not being tarred with the Terrorist brush, he's saying that they're POTENTIAL terrorists. Not sure what the authorities expect to happen...perhaps Muslim parents will report their kids for not coming home till late, or being vague as to who they've been out with...in that case I MUST have been a terrorist when I was sixteen...! As today's Independent said, Stalin would just love this form of DEnunciation...so come on folks...grass your kids... in fact kids grass your parents too... :shock: kanelli Have young Christian, Jewish or Hindu Britains been blowing up any subway cars and double deckers lately? 17 young Canadian Muslims have also been arrested under suspicion of plotting bombings on Toronto and Ottawa. What is wrong with speaking to the people who are most at risk for turning to extremism, as seen by recent world events? GSRider
Let's put this in perspective shall we? The British Govt reckons that there are less than a thousand people who could be considered a 'risk' - this is out of a population of approx 1.6 million.
Do you really feel the way to discourage extermism is to target the entire 1.6 million? This is more likely to lead to a sense of alienation leading to further exclusion of Muslims in mainstream society, which will eventually lead to resentment and play right into the hands of radicals. Chocoholic And what do you suggest is the alternative? Turning a blind eye and let youngsters become brainwashed into committing horrible acts by fanatics, preaching nothing but hatred? It's because the muslim community is not taking responsibility for these things, that this kind of action is taking palce in the first place. They're not controlling what is being preached, so what are you supposed to do ignore it? GSRider
How do you suggest they take responsibility? There's not a mosque in the counry where people aren't acutely aware of the radical issue and it is already being dealt with. Having a Govt Minister come in and imply it's the entire mulsim community's fault is polarising things even more. Chocoholic Well who else should take the blame then for radicalism taking control? You have to take responsibility for your own, and to be perfectly honest there hasn't been enough done, enough condemnation of the acts of radicals from the Muslim community as a whole, and it's certainly not being stamped out. It is no-one elses responsibility but theirs.

1 Dubai Jobs .com The First Place to Find a Job in Dubai
rvp_legend
That because i AM EUROPEAN!
the reason why i say the above is due to the naure of your questioning.
Like for example, you ignore why these type of terrorists exist in the first place. You are stating that the parents should stop their kids, while completely ignoring the foreign policies of governments - WHICH ARE THE MAIN CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.
Of course every parent can do their part - but that doesnt mean it will wipe out the problem. If you look at the terrorsists to date, most have been influenced by recent issues....But by then they were FULLY GROWN adults. So how is a parent going to keep watch over a 20 something they dont live with?
and yes i have read your posts.
They sometimes make me choke.
On one, you sounded so peed off that the Afghans wanted the taleiban back, you said they should give them what they deserve return the taleiban and then watch the women prosper at school. You completely ignored the fact that Afghanistan is in a dire state post taleiban in the hands of complete thugs and warlords. these war lords were there before the taleiban and after and are the primary reason why opium growth has consistently risen.
On another similar one, you said the Iraqis should get Saddam back if they want the Coalition out so bad - ignoring the fact that Europe and North America created that brutal dictator.
You even asked why Iraqis dont pull themslves together and stop blaming the coalition - COMPLETELY FORGETTING THAT THEY ARE STILL UNDER OCCUPATION..
So even though many people in Europe and North America understand the injustices.... some of us seem to treat them as dismisive factors. kanelli The government minister wasn't accusing all Muslims of being potential terrorists, only suggesting that Muslims pay attention to their youth and make sure they are not being seduced into extremism by a small handful of radicals. There is nothing wrong with that at all. If Christians, Jews, Hindus ets. were having the same problems the minister would have suggested the same. mraph33 Its just like going into the inner cities and telling young blacks to stay away from gangs and drugs. It doesn't mean that every black kid is a murdering drug-addict. But its a problem that faces that community and the leaders have to address the issue. Mr & Mrs Inquirer Mr Enoch Powell was correct The U.K is a "CHRISTIAN"country and are very tolerant to other religions (they are even allowed to build places to worship some thing they would not be allowed to do in other parts of the world)they should remember that they are aliens in the U.K If they want they want to live a different way and do not wish to integrate and respect the U.K freedoms then they should go live else where and see if they have the same freedoms :) GSRider
Oh well it was only a matter of time before some right wing nut trotted out the same old rhetoric about Enoch Powell. FYI the Muslim population is NOT Alien in the UK, the majority are UK Citizens. Which countries are you talking about that Christians can't build Churches or practice their faith? It certainly isn't Lebanon, the Israelis managed to bomb them there Various Islamic States have churches and Christian populations and they live in peace.
Again you're missing the point, 99.99% of the Muslims in the UK do live in peace and have no hidden agendas or are terrorists. Trying to blame the entire muslim population, is the same as blaming all the troubles in Northern Ireland on the Catholics. Mr & Mrs Inquirer AMERICA has the right way of doing things As reported on the news Tow the line or "we will bomb you back to the stone age" Enoch Powell. was well head of his time and a TRUE BRIT god bless him :) rvp_legend
Foreign policy of counties is spurring the recruitment drive. Remember people only need to look at the state of Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebannon and now potentially Iran and Syria.
This UK Govt prefers cures to prevention. It still doesnt admit that the London bombings were related to Iraq, eve though the intelligence confirms it.
Additionally, it doesnt address other domestic issues.
ASBO's, - still no grip
Gun crime, - still no grip
Binge Drinking, - still no grip
High Teenage pregnancies - the govt recomended teaching 14 years old ORAL S E X!!
This govt has a history now of ignoring its failed policies and always looks for shortcut fixes.

Ok question. How can for example, a guy from Morocco take responsibility for someone from Pakistan? you clearly havent understood the diversity of "Muslims" and are lumping them into one category.
regarding condemnation, Actually, most clerics who have been deemed extremist have been banned from most mosques.
It is a tragedy that the domestic media never concentrate on the voices of those who are taking action and fully condemning. The media is very pre occupied with giving air time to extremists, as it sells their papers.
There is so much it can stamp out... the root causes are not being addressed. Everyone makes it seem like Muslims appreared in the UK yesterday. They have been in the UK for years/ over a century. Why is it a problem now? The reason is due to the way the world is now shaping. Unjust wars, unneccessary killing of innocents and injustices are fueling this behaviour.
There is no way i agree with the actions they take. Neither do most Muslims i know... but it takes two to tango....If there was no illegal,unjust killing ...and there were still bombers of this nature, then i would agree with you that it is a problem which the community need to deal with.
It is too convenient to say the responsibility lay with them.
my 2 c's rvp_legend
The percentange possibility of brainwashing to create an extremist is / was very low. Yet there was a full on approach to address it.
The London Bombings were 100% related to the Iraq war as confirmed by the intelligence..... yet you see any approaches to change foreign policy? Mr & Mrs Inquirer It is too convenient to say the responsibility lay with them Their all love and peace. Donut you just love Irak the way they are living in harmony
Mr & Mrs Inquirer :lol: GSRider
And that's why you're in the Middle East... :wink: valkyrie
Your obdurate stupidity boggles my mind. Once again you have no clue, read my post and then click on the link Mr & Mrs Inquirer But with out us you would still be in MUD HUTs and killing each other with swords and spears kanelli
So if the coalition pulls out of Iraq you can 100% promise that Islamic extremism and terrorism will not continue? valkyrie
No, but the Iraqi people would prefer to live under Sharia than under American occupation rvp_legend
Did you know that before the occupation there were no terrorists in Iraq?
Now, after 3 years there are so many!
Kanelli the point is... the only way Iraqis will get a better future is if left to themslves, rather than impose a ruler on them.

You are , as many of my Europeans/USA/Canadian colleagues do ingoring th root causes of this bloodshed. and that is the injustices.
Iraq is one of many now. Palestine, Kashmir, Lebanon, Afghanistan .... all in dire states due to foreign policies of the west (Kashmir not so apparent, but lack of condemnation from UK AND US is feuling)
What i am saying is, if there was no injustice from the UK and US/Europe and extremist kept growing and kept carrynig out their horrid acts, only then can you blame them entirely. It takes two to tango. Princess Banana Hammock I don't agree with this. As a British Muslim, I would be pretty miffed if teachers and dinner ladies were particularly watching my behaviour because of my faith even though I was a quiet and studious child. In fact, it would wind me up even more as at that age it was my parents faith, not mine, at least not until the age of 13. Also, how would they detect these things? I'm sure there will be many studious quiet children and teenagers who are up to some dodgy things. I do think this is some kind of propoganda to kid Britons that the Govt are doing what they can to 'protect' their citizens from any harm. There have been far worse atrocities in the UK and US, Dunblane for example, which was also a horrific attack where many innocent childrens lives were taken. kanelli
And what makes you think that so many of us Europeans and North Americans don't understand that there is a lot of injustice going on? I certainly don't see where you would get that I don't understand it. Have you not read any of my posts in this forum over the last 9 months? kanelli
Hey, if Muslim parents think it is too much to be asked to keep an eye out for a change in behaviour of their children, the presence of extremist people in their lives, or extremist propaganda in their house - then I guess it is too much to ask.
Perhaps they should stop reminding parents to watch what their kids do on the Internet, who they hang out with, and whether they are in contact with drugs and alcohol. After all - that would be treating their children like criminals, wouldn't it? mraph33
And would they prefer to live under Saddam also? valkyrie
Agree that the Muslim community should boycott Holocaust Memorial Day: 56 percent.
Believe that Jews in Britain have no interest in the plight of the Palestinians: 57 percent.
Believe that Jews in Britain have too much influence over British foreign policy: 53 percent.
Believe that Jews in Britain are in league with the Freemasons to control the media and politics: 46 percent.
Believe that Jews in Britain are "legitimate targets as part of the ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East": 37 percent.
Agree that the state of Israel has the no right to exist: 30 percent. (52 percent say has the right to exist. )
Agree that suicide bombings can be justified in Israel: 16 percent. (Among 18 to 24-year-olds: 21 percent.)
Agree that suicide bombings can be justified against civilians in Britain: 7 percent. (Among 18 to 24-year-olds: 12 percent.)
Agree that suicide bombings can be justified against the military in Britain: 21 percent. (Among 18 to 24-year-olds: 28 percent.)
Chocoholic Once again Val, there you go banging on about the Jewish and Israel thing, which is irrelevant to the discussion! If the coalition pulled out of Iraq, then the Shiites and Sunnis would just start killing each other, nothing would change, civil war would take over. kanelli No, you are changing your tune. You claimed that I implied that the coaltion should have invaded Iraq. I said no such thing and you have not provided any evidence of that. Now you are suddenly shifting focus to say that I don't acknowledge the root causes. Anyone who has read any of my posts in this forum can tell you that I have discussed many root causes at length. Thanks for pulling out some of my more sarcastic posts - and taking them out of their context to prove your non-point. :lol: What I am saying is that what is done is done and I am sick of hearing Arabs/Muslims making excuses about the sectarian violence that is going on in Iraq. Sunnis and Shiias are purposely killing each other over political and religious dominance in Iraq. The US and coalition are not putting the guns in their hands and squeezing their fingers on the triggers - it their own doing. The only thing the invasion of Iraq has done is destabilise the country by ousting Saddam who kept a bloody and barbaric control over all the separate groups. If people are whining that it was better under Saddam - then maybe the coalition shoud put Saddam back in charge and pull out. I doubt even Saddam can put a lid on all the fighting there anymore. Don't you agree? rvp_legend
Please can you present, where i accused you of supporting the Invasion of Iraq. I did however mention you like many, seem to ignore the root causes in your questioning. That was the theme of my posts.


I took a quote for what it was. If it was sarcasm, i will accept that. But the only reason i used it was due to the consistency of tone.

The country has been in civil war for 2 years. The media may ignore it but sectarian violence proves it.
You may be sick of hearing about the Sectarian violence, but im sure the people who are having to experience it are much worse off. When you have such a diverse country and no security - ther will always be opportunists who start a power struggle, History has proven that. The US and coalition must take the blame for being so gungo ho into war without any plans on the aftermath.
Saddam was a terrible dictator, but was most barbaric when in favour with the west. In recent years he was far more controlled. Saddam or any dictator will not be be able to bring cntrol without further bloodshed, so if it goes back to a Dictator, it is another failure of the coalition.
It is hard to see any form of settlement without the partitioning of the country now. Although where is the International Criminal court now? kanelli Clearly I am aware that Iraq and Afghanistan have been destabilised when their rulers were removed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people are clued into that fact... Do you want to keep lecturing us on the "root causes"? The coalition has invaded, and they did have plans. Just because things haven't gone according to plan doesn't mean there weren't plans, or aren't new plans. What do you suggest happens now to remedy the chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan? Rememer, your solution should be one that will be accepted by the Arab/Muslim world and the people living in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm very keen to hear your solutions. rvp_legend
most people are not clued up about root causes. They are too often ignored in debates. People/Media only seem to concentrate on recent history, which often shapes our opinions..such as the suicide bomb which goes off in the market, how barbaric it was (yes it is barbaric) but always ignoring why the situation has reached this point.

I disagree,
remember, they assumed they would be greeted with flowers - but got bullets. They spend more time planning the gung ho invasaion than the aftermath.

Accountability is the main issue. If the hawks were held accountable for what they did - it would go down very well, so history couldnt repeat itself. but a US govt official to be tried in the ICC? i dont think that will ever happen.
What most people would want is an end to the occupation. People would then choose their destiny. It they choose constant civil war then that is their sole decision.
Maybe a UN led effort with the Arab league to help tame the violence in Iraq?
The Sunni countries, to assist the Sunnis'. Iran to influence the Shia.
Then to hold proper elections with International observers, with all ehtnic groups represented.
Saddam to have a proper trial, not the current joke with guest Judges.
I believe the Arab league without the US involvement will be far more willing to assist.
The US to compensate for the ruined infrastructure. They caused this mess.
But as i mentioned previously.... it has reached at such a point, that a partitioning may be the only solution. kanelli Do you really think that Arab League can help tame the chaos? What kind of infrastructure do they have to get on the ground and running with a plan? Also, isn't Iran already involved with the Shiias at the moment, and haven't they always been? If the coalition leaves and then there is mass genocide of one religious sect or another, or one ethnic group or another - won't they be blamed for leaving? rvp_legend
Yes i do think the Arab league can make a difference. It is in their interests and if they took the lead i believe they will look for a solution. Just like they have all throughout history. Remember, there has been skirmishes in the past but they were always resolved.
Iran will only really make an effort once the US is not there. Iran probably takes great pleasure in seeing the US get it so wrong. All parties would do more if they took leads, which would have to exclude the US.
There is already a road to Genocide. the US have caused it they cant fix it. Hence i said, accountability would go down very well.
Should they stay or go?
Why not introduce the first REAL democratic process in Iraq - A vote with international supervision of whether they should stay or go. kanelli Interesting suggestions RVP, I have no clue what would work or not. The situation looks pretty dire in Iraq at least. There is hope for Afghanistan if the warlords can have the power cut out from underneath them. They need real government action and unity of the people as well. Unfortunately, when a country is destabilised some parts of the population try to profit from the situation economically and politically. rvp_legend
Unfortunately the warlords are part of the current government. They are also a country with ethnic diversity. Its difficult to find a solution with Afghanistan more than Iraq i feel. On one hand you will find Pakistan pushing their interests, then there is Iran, Russia etc all finding it strategically placed near the Caspian sea....who knows where it ends Chocoholic
And?! It still has very little basis. I bet you've never even met a Freemason.



Dubai Forum | Paris Forum | Vegan Forum | Brisbane Forum | 3D Forum | Classified Jobs in Dubai | Listings of Jobs in London | London classified ads Portal
| © 2021 Dubai Forums | Privacy policy