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Is this really perverted and dangerous....?


kanelli I totally agree with Maaad that that article space would have been better filled with a piece that debates the cultural differences and how all the different cultures in Dubai cope with each other. I just wonder what life is like in the homes of people who don't like public displays of affection. Do their children see any love and affection between their parents? Will those children end up having a hard time expressing love when they grow up? In the shopping mall I've seen local couples walking arm in arm, or the man rubbing his woman's back or holding her close to his body with his arm around her waist. There are other couples who just walk side by side, or simply hold hands. I have to say that I always smile whenever I see a couple showing signs of affection to each other, because it is wonderful to see. If this couple at the pool wanted to have a little cuddle in the confines of a 5 star hotel pool where people of many cultures holiday - I feel that they have every right to do that. That doesn't mean that couples should be making out in the pool with excessive touching and kissing, but I doubt that anyone does that because they are aware that they are in an Islamic country. These people are paying expensive fees to stay at the hotel and a holiday in Dubai shouldn't mean that they can't show affection to their partner. There are other sunny and beautiful places to visit in the world where couples can be themselves and enjoy their holiday, so if people want to attract tourists here they will have to be tolerant. All that person complaining about the cuddling couple had to do was explain to his/her children that in some cultures it is okay to display affection in public. Unfortunately, it seems that this person wants to condemn it as obscene, rather than try to understand it.
MaaaD I think this is just an issue of seeing things in relative terms. As someone who grew up in the West (most probably) you view this as just an innocent cuddle. Now think of it this way. In a culture where a woman showing her hair is considered sinful, dont you think a couple cuddling in a swimming people would be considered a big deal ? Its just how things a preceived in different prespectives. Now ofcourse the people in Dubai are struggling with this, trying to get the whole world to visit, live and spend money in the city while trying to maintin the islamic/arabic culture and heritage. Eitherway i agree with you that this is not material to dedicate quarter a page for it in a daily paper. Although it would be a good thing to debate the cultural differences among the different groups in the city and how they cope with each other. GoodBai Cuddling, yes I'm talking about cuddling. Now let me say I do agree that people should respect others and their culture and behave with respect in another land but I nearly choked on my coffee to read a long comment piece in the Emirates Toady which covered a quarter of a page about how shocking it was that the writer had seen a couple cuddling in the swimming pool area of a five-star hotel in Dubai. Apparently the kids who were with the writer pointed to the couple "giggling and laughing". The writer says she was shocked but they were "oblivious to others" including the children. She says: "What amazed me was that nobody did or said anything to the couple to stop them. Is it not traumatising for the children? I am sure they won’t be able to forget the scene." "We must ensure that our children grow up with the right values in the right environment." Now I can think of a lot things that might traumatise kids - like being exposed to porn, aggression or violence - but I defy anyone to explain to me how seeing a couple do something as natural and normal as have a cuddle, even in an amorous way, could damage a child in any way. And these two were even sat round the pool of their hotel... quick, get the cuddles police and hold the bloody front page! The world (or UAE) seems to have gone mad when a newspaper could devote such coverage to something like this. Especially a city which has hundreds and hundreds of prostitutes and their pimps who go about their daily business seemingly untouched by the authorities (who don't even admit they exist!). I tell you something, if Dubai is really serious about attracting millions more tourists from around the globe then it really will have to go with the flow and change some of its attitudes. And the press here needs a great big fat kick up the posterior and should start getting to grips with some of the really big stories bubbling below the surface. MS Just as Muslims living in the West are expected to respect the Western way of life, Westerns living in an Islamic environment should respect the Islamic way of life. This is our way of life: we cuddle only privately. Yes, it is natural ...only when done privately. This is our way of life, it's as simple as that. Chocoholic MS, Sorry to say that 'No', it's not as simple as that! The likelihood is that the couple were tourists seeing as the pool belonged to a hotel. Many people visiting do not realise that overly zealous public displays of affection would be frowned upon. Dubai has opened it's doors as a tourist destination and must therefore accept that sometimes people will not have a great knowledge about local culture. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to promote yourself as a destination for tourists of all walks of life and other cultures then you must also have a certain amount of tolerance for the way they might behave when here. A cuddle in a pool is certainly not hurting anyone, unless of course they were fondling and being overly excessive in their petting. When I was at a pool yesterday a couple were cuddling, no-one cared about it. As Kanelli says you see many locals now walknig around hand in hand (please don't forget that in many western countries for two men to be doing this you would be frowned upon! as it's seen as a homos.e.x.ual thing!) But for men and women to have small displays of affection I think it's nice. And as Kanelli says when I see a naitonal man and woman do it, it also brings a smile to my face as it means they're happy to openly show how they feel about one another - it's lovely! With regards to the paper - what can you expect from Emirates Today, a complete wasted of article space. kanelli
Yes, and many of the expats living here do respect the culture. Tourists within the confines of a hotel is another matter.
If Islamic countries want women to cover up, no public displays of affection, no symbols of religion - then why try attract non-Muslim tourists?
Maybe they should make separate hotels then. All the pious Muslims can hang out at select Islamic hotels, and the Western tourists can hang out at select liberal hotels.
I would also recommend a change to the cable television packages. I can't believe how movies are sensored by the UAE government and some members of the general public are shocked by snuggling yet the major cable channels show all kinds of s.e.x.y shows and music videos containing scantily clad men and women. Chocoholic Good point K, I was watching VH1 the other day and man some videos are sooooo dodgy! Many of the local channels force GCC artists to tone down their content but just play the western ones as is, which I find a complete double standard. Also with many movies and TV shows, they'll edit out a simple kiss between a couple, but it's acceptable to see someone having their brains blown out and swearing and explicit language - the editors don't have a clue! constantine yes choc i am amazed at the level of hypocricy which exsists for censorchip here...whereas some cable stations get away with bloody murder...showing everything and anything which is taboo...some other channels cant even show a hug let alone a kiss...in fact if u were to get one of those satellite dishes...you would literally have a numoroid choices of adult channels among other borderline and controversial channels...its like censorship is a failed experiment...swept under the rug like so many issues at hand...think i might get a dish! :evil: IMJ i had to do a booking for some of our customers coming to Dubai, so, when i called up our agent he asked what nationality the visitors were, which was strange for me to hear, why would an agent care for the nation. Anyway, later that day i asked one of my friends why that question occured, he explained me that some hotels let only westerners and europeans stay in, i was kinda upset to hear that; it is a discrimination to me. However, now when I think about it, I agree with the hotel policies, that they do not want to mix up different cultures for this kind of things not to happen. I do not see anything scary or dangerous in a couple enjoing their time in the hotel pool; it is not like they were making out in it in front of ppl, and i do understand we are in a muslim country, but u cannot make ppl who visit Dubai or come here to work become muslim. When i speak out my mind on this kind of issues, ppl say we are in a muslim country, so, u gotta respect the rules here, yeah, we should respect the culture of the country, howevere, I also think that if a country opened its doors for visitors, they should be ready for ppl act like they do in normal life, u cannot expect tourists come here and act like they are muslim. The company I previosly worked with back home had one of its labourers arrested, just because he went to Sharjah to see his gf, and she was by herself in the house she worked in, so, the neighbours called cops on them, I mean what is wrong with ppl, a couple wants to meet up, why get a guy in trouble for that? IMJ if newspapers publishing that stuff was so scary, what about Dubai night clubs? Or, Bur Dubai area in a whole? Everybody just closes their eyes on that fact we are all very well aware of.

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Wafaey PPL listen rules about hotels for westerners and muslims is so racists. In Egypt for example where I come from and also the biggest Islamic nation in the Middle East and the biggest touristic one we have never ever had such thing and we will never have it and we never had a problem of such kind. I'm very shocked to hear you guys agree on this hotel policy thing. So cuz i'm from Egypt I'll not be allowed to stay in such hotels. Here is a thought why don't we make hotels for every nation here so everyone would be happy :x :x IMJ IT IS very racist, I am not saying it is good, but if u think about ppl who are muslim and getting offended by europeans doing something that is ok for them, it creates issues. The problem is that everyone cannot be happy even when hotels are for all ppl, irrespective of their nation or religion. If hotels are open for everybody to stay in, everybody should realise they come from different backgrounds and should not freak out about ppl showing some feelings to each other, which might not be acceptable by other ppl's customs. I also do not want to be banned from staying in the hotel just coz i am not from a western country. sharewadi
The letter of the law says that's illegal in Sharjah (in Dubai too). Which is why it's a good idea to figure out what your neighbours are like before having people of the opposite gender visit you... MS Choco, the couple might have been tourists, in a hotel and not knowing the culture. Sure, I have no problem with that. But, I'm talking in general. You say Dubai is open for tourists and should accept the tourists' culture. No, tourists should know the place they are visiting and be prepared to accept its values. You say natural. This is very relative. For us Muslims bf and gf is not natural, s.e.x. before marriage is not natural. The only natural relationship is marriage of a man and a woman. Now, cuddling in public. Again, it is not natural. Again, it hurts people adn we don't want our children to see it. You say it doesn't hurt because you are talking about your set of values (which I repsect by the way). So, as long as you're my guest, respect mine. The same way I respect your culture when I am your guest. I am in the west now. I wouldn't mock a couple kissing in public even if I know they are not married, and they are kissing in public, and even if all this is against my own values. I wouldn't also condemn it. So, you just have to ahve the same attitude .... IMJ
dont u think it is crazy, though?
how are young ppl supposed to date?
and, about Muslim and non Muslim cultures; in this case, prostitution in this country should be stopped. S.e.x. before marriage is not the right thing, now, how many men and women actually follow that, even being Muslim? The worst thing about it all is hypocrisy. sharewadi
"Not acceptable" (depending on your beliefs) would be more accurate I think. If it wasn't natural, people (of all faiths and cultures) wouldn't do these things as often as they do.

1. The law? No comment 8) .
2. Illegally, or live somewhere they can :? . Chocoholic MS, Giving someone a hug, be it your mother, your father, brother, sister, friend, bf or gf is the most natural and 'human' thing in the world. People are not robots! Even UAE nationals give each other hugs - what's the problem? Don't make one where none exists. A simple hug is nothing to be ashamed or afraid of at all and reinforces the bonds of feeling between people. Also I can't stand the 'your a guest in my country, if you don't like it - leave' attitude, it's awful! Yes people should respect local cultures, but if a country has opened it's doors and intends to make profit out of tourists as Dubai has, then you have to be prepared to make execptions and be more accepting of the way some people might behave. Plus have you ever seen any leaflets or info at the airports or onboard planes regarding these things? No! I certainly haven't, so people who don't know much about the place are ignorant of it, so how can you expect them to know - it's called tolerance my friend. IMJ, also a point about asking the nationality of hotel guests, it's nothing to do with racism, I can assure you. BUt some nationalities are required to pay for their visit visas and the hotels have a big problem here with people of certain countries coming in, staying with them, then disappearing, so the hotels become liable to pay this money. So to protect themselves, you'll find many will ask the nationality, check how much (if at all) a visit visa costs, and this will be charged to the credit card of the person booknig the room, so if there's any problem it's covered. Or indeed they might well ask for another person to act as a sponsor for them whist they're here. PLus certain hotels are well known for their unsavoury guests here, wink wink, nudge nudge, so they also obviously don't want guests who might cause problems for them by reporting what is going on. It's all politics. MS Choco ...you changed the subject. Yes, a hug could be natural. Even a kiss could be natural. The original post was talking about cuddling in a swimming pool. The impression is thus not just a simple hug or a kiss on the cheek or forehead. All I was saying is that there is a cultural difference between the West and the Islamic world. There is even a huge cultural difference between the West today and the West 100 years ago. All I was saying is we do respect the western culture. So respect ours. At least understand it. Also, I wasn't blaming those in the swimming pool and, of course, people have to be tolerant. I was trying to explain and justify why, due to the cultural difference, why people may condemn it. BTW, I promise this will be my last post on the subject. Cheers ... Chocoholic MS, I understand and appreciate what you're saying - fair enough!
kanelli Yes MS, thank you for your posts. You explain well and make good points about the tolerance needed. Sometimes it really strikes me how different Islamic vs. non-Islamic culture are from each other. It is really difficult when you have one culture that thinks that anything s.e.xually related should be kept in private and women are basically s.e.x.ual objects that need to be kept covered to stay modest and protected from male advances. Then you have another culture that has changed from more modest dress to quite a state of undress over the past 100 years, but men get pleasure out of their women looking beautiful so it is expected that women show off their beauty. (Yes, women in this culture are considered s.e.x objects as well.) The men are responsible for controlling their behaviour towards women, no matter what the woman wears, so women are empowered to dress as they like. As you can see - the cultures are different. Liban You think that in Arab culture, women are regarded as s.e.x. objects? sharewadi
Isn't that the reason women are expected to cover up? To not led men into temptation? kanelli Actually, the Quran doesn't stipulate that women need to wear the head-to-toe covering that we see in many Islamic countries - but those countries have a patriarchal culture and that seems to have influenced the custom of women's dress. Yes, women are viewed as s.e.x.ual objects. If women have to cover themselves as to hide their charms and assets from other men, and therefore protect their modesty and protect themselves from harrassment, molestation or rape from other men - then the men clearly see women as s.e.xual objects. Women covering up is more for men to protect themselves from dirty thoughts and bad behaviour that might indulge in if they saw the shape of breasts and bum and legs through closer-fitting clothing. Liban
Kanelli, perhapes you should read the Quran before saying what you think it may stipulate in regards to this issue.
The Quran says that a woman should cover her hair, neck, torso, arms till her wrists, pelvic area, and legs to her ankles in a non revealing material.
It is to prevent women from becoming s.e.x. objects that this law was introduced in the Quran by God since back then most women where nothing more than the s.e.x. objects in Western porno movies. kanelli Liban, I was referring to the fact that many women cover their faces, hands, ankles and feet as well. Some women don't expose even one millimeter of skin to anyone outside of their home. Do you disagree with my noting this custom of dress and its incongruence with what you just said the Quran stipulates about women's dress? From your post you seem to come to the same conclusion as me. Women are treated as s.e.x objects that need to be covered so that they don't tempt men. kanelli There are women in tribal communties around the world (in warmer climates) who wear only short grass or fabric skirts with no top - are they Western porn stars? MS I promised not to post anything else on the (cuddling in the swimming pool) subject. So this post is on the s.e.x object issue. Islam has 2 sources: the Qur'an and the tardition of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Both are the sources of Islam. Many issues that are briefly mentioned in the Qr'an are explained in detail in the Prophet's tradition. For example, the Qr'an demands Muslims to pray. The precise form/procedure of the prayer is only in the Prophet's tradition. Having said that, the Prophet's tradition says that women should cover up everything except their face and hands (not arms). It is very strange that this is interpreted as women being s.e.x. objects. On the contrary... this protects women from becoming s.e.x. objects. This only gives women the respect they deserve. Women are treated as s.e.x. objects by Western fashion designers, advertisesr, film producers , ...etc. Not Islam that just respects women. By the way, 1500 years ago when women all over the world were only treated as (s.e.x. or other) objects, Islam gave women full respect: the right to keep her own name, the right to choose her partner, the right to have s.e.x.ual satisfaction in marriage, the right to have her own wealth, ....etc. Also don't blame Islam by certain countries that don't allow women to drive cars. This is ridiculous and is not related to Islam by any means. kanelli But why do I see some Muslim men walking at the mall with their woman covered from head to toe (sheer black fabric over her face) - yet the man wears shorts and a t-shirt? Does the man not need protecting from becoming a s.e.xual object? Do men not tempt women and give them unclean thoughts? In the West women are not leered at unless they are wearing skimpy outfits (a la Paris Hilton) that show their breasts etc. If women need protecting by covering up in baggy clothing, then why is there a relatively low rape rate in Western countries - and even then many rapes are committed by dates or men close to the woman, and often alcohol is involved. Basically, there is more to the issue than just what the woman was wearing. The logic doesn't fit that women need protecting by cover up completely. Women here in Dubai can be leered at even when covered to the wrists and ankles. The simple fact that she is not wearing a piece of black clothing that is associated with a religion is cause enough to justify men's leering - despite the fact that she may well have covered herself quite modestly. There are Muslim men who visit prostitutes because they want to have s.e.x with a woman, just like most men on this planet want to do. Ultimately, it is the man who must control his own behaviour - not ask all women to cover up so that the men feel less tempted to misbehave. Liban
Covering the face, hands, ankles, and feet is not in line with the Quran. Liban
They do not do that for any s.e.x.ual reason, unlike West Porn stars that do what they do for money resulting from publically displaying their bodies naked and in s.e.x. acts.
Your argument falls on deaf ears in this case... kanelli


Uh, okay Liban, so you are saying that all the women in the Arab world were dressing inappropriately and that is why they were treated like Western porn stars are - filmed (wow!) and paid for sex? This is why God then told people that the women should cover themselves completely? Please correct me if I am wrong.
By the way Liban, how does a good Muslim like yourself know about Western porn ;) I'd like to point out that porn is made in all parts of the world and really has nothing to do with how the average woman dresses from day to day. I resent any implication that non-Muslim women dress like whores because they are not dressed in an Abaaya.
Saying that women need to cover themselves completely sounds pretty patriarchal to me, as does making the woman responsible for how men treat via her way of dress, instead of making men responsible for their own conduct. Sure, women know that conservative dress can fend off some unwanted male attention, but covering yourself completely from head-to-toe? That seem a bit much, especially when men can wear what they want.
Ultimately, this is yet another case where religious folk can say "God says this is the way it should be, so I won't question it." - so I am not expecting everyone to agree. It is certainly interesting to look at the different perspectives though :) Chocoholic I agree with Kanelli on this. I see the women being covered so to protect themselves from being s.e.x.ual objects because the men can't be trusted not to look and stare, so because guys can't keep their temptations under control the women cover up, it has zero to do with respecting women. I also resent the fact that you guys see all western and non-muslim women in a bad light because of the way they might dress. Might I remind you that in Victorian times, it was also taboo for a women to show any flesh, which is why clothing went down to the wrist and down to the floor. Showing anything like an ankle was a big no no. These were not arab or muslim women so by no means are you right in thinking that western society has always been the way it is now. Plus just because a woman is not covered from head to toe, does not mean she has no self respect nor does it mean she shouldn't be treated with respect. As Kanelli has pointed out there are still many tribes in existance around the world who would laugh at you for not wandering around completely naked all the time. Liban I beleive the lizard I saw in my yard last week would understand me better... Kanelli I am not saying that prior to Islam, Arab women were whores. I was saying that they were treated as such and were disrespected. Islam changed all that for the better. I am not saying that all westerners dress like whores. That is not true. Obviously if you dress like Christina Aguilera or Brittney Spears, then yes you look like a whore and probably are one (Christina). A abbaya is not going to make a woman a good woman. I never said that so I am not sure where you are coming from. Also I never said that westerners are dressed as whores becoause they do not where a abaaya... :roll: Kanelli, read my posts properly. Please! kanelli Are you implying that because I disagree I am not open-minded? Islam is not for me - in fact, no religion is for me. What to you is logical is not necessarily logical for everyone else. Why are men's arms not s.e.xual yet women's arms are? Chocoholic Liban, I disagree with you saying that before Islam women wre treated with disrespect. Look at Matriachal (apologies for spelling) societies, where women were revered and treated like goddesses and something to behold, protect and cherished. Plus many women in power in these societies would have Eunuchs (castrated males) as their s.e.x slaves. So in light of this maybe it is MEN who should cover up to protect their dignity and be protected from over amorous women. Liban OK, but Choco you didn't read my posts. Islam first came to the Arabs and I was refering to ARAB women. You do have a point but you didn't read my post very well. kanelli Liban, once again you turn to insults. I'm sure you know very well that I am intelligent. In the future, please just clarify or don't respond again at all rather than insult by saying that lizards are more intelligent. Are you posting on this topic or only to insult my intelligence? Make up your mind. Turning now to the topic. You said that women were treated like whores - but we are talking about clothing and why in Islam women are supposed to cover their hair, and their bodies to their ankles and wrists. This means that you are saying that Arab women's dress was the reason they were treated like whores until Islam came and women covered up. You have not touched my points about the hypocrisy and double standard of women covering and men not etc. As well, as a non-Muslim not wearing an Abaaya I can tell you that even when clothed to the wrists and ankles, you can be propositioned like you are a whore. Why? Because you are Western, and the clothing is not associated with Islam. I never said that all women wearing Abaaya's are good women - I am saying that wearing an Abaaya will give a woman here more respect than if wearing Western clothing that still covers according to the rules of Islam (minus the head scarf). Liban If you would read my posts then you would not receive such a comment. I will say this one last time. The imperative to cover hair, neck, arms till wrists and legs till ankles in loose non-reveiling clothing was one of the things Islam did to improve the status of women who were considered less important than birds!! There is no double standard. A man's body is not revealing, a woman's is. A man should over the only revealing area he has, ie. from the belly button to the knees. As for Western women being treated like whores, it has nothing to do with ISlam and just the perception. Whether or not this perception is based on truth is not binding for that is the way they are seen. It doesn't help Western women in all honesty than in their culture, pre-marital sex is not considered taboo and is openly discussed and embraced. Kanelli before you get all hot and puffy again, I am not condoning or condemming anything that I have said about the perceptions of women in different cultures (and assoc.). I am just stating it as it is. :D Chocoholic
Liban, would you please go and tell that to all the horrid blokes in tight fitting shorts and speedos on the beach then! Plus the ones with the huge hang over bellies, hideous monkey man body hair etc etc. Men's bodies can be pretty ugly at times.
I get what you're saying, but personally speaking the human body can be the most beautiful thing, an amazing piece of biological engineering, there should never be anything to be ashamed of with regard to it. It's peoples attitudes that make us ashamed and nothing else. sharewadi
Ironic you use the word "birds". And I presume you meant non-revealing although non-reveiling makes sense depending on your POV I suppose.
But that aside, how does covering something/someone up improve their status? Status is in the eye of the beholder?
If men wore eye-masks when out in public, then women could wear what they liked. After all, instead of covering up the grass, we put masks on horses :shock: . Chocoholic great poitnsharewadi. I guess it's like saying, lets cover all chocolate cup cakes with mustard, then we won't be tempted to eat them. It should test a persons resolve to have these things. Personally it's got nothing to do with the women at all, it's all about the men. And to be honest I've had enough of men deciding what's right and wrong. It's about time women overthrew men and took over as guys are just messing it all up. GoodBai Ahh Choco... the beach Speedo brigade :D ... I reckon if you ever had the misfortune of closer inspection you'd probably find that all the lunchbox comprised was a couple of shrivelled up old grapes and a tiny stick of limp celery :D Made me laugh altho I think you forgot to throw builder's bum into the equation :shock: Dubai Knight
Uh Oh! I can hear the strains of 'The Red Flag' playing in the distance! OK guys, duck! There's a gonna be bra burning and women chaining themselves to the railings!
OK Chocs, I have no problem with the girls taking over for a while, however I would like to point out that I will be first in the queue when the girls are taking their shirts off to dig the holes in the road and I am really not sure that pink, with a few sequins around the hem, classifies as camouflage when the girls go to war! Not sure if Gucci are doing co-ordinated rifles and bullets this season...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Knight :wink: Chocoholic
Builders bums - ahahahahaha! Good one! Yeah It's pretty grim isn't it, particularly if it's a bit tufty. :shock: Chocoholic DK, I just feel that guy time is up. I mean lets face it blokes haven't exactly done a great job when it comes to many positions of power. Liban
In Islam such types of clothing for men are forbidden. Chocoholic Well that's one belief I'm quite happy to go with! kanelli Liban, you subscribe to the double standard. I guess you aren't aware of it - perhaps the patriarchal mentality is ingrained in you. As a woman, I can tell you that men are s.e.xually attractive to women. Well fitting shirts and pants show off great shoulders, chest, back and bum. Men can have great legs, and gorgeous arms. Men's hairstyles can be s.e.xy, and a great smile, stunning eyes and generally good facial features are a turn on. If Islam was fair to both s.e.xes, the men should be covering up from head to toe as well. Chocoholic There's nothing like a tight bum in well cut trousers. But K, I always found that really weird, and I think it should work both ways. Liban Kanelli, say what you want about Islam and its fairness but the facts will not change. Islam is a fair religion where all of God's servants are equal and beneath him. You can also try to belittle me and say that certain things are ingrained in my head of what not but you would be so wrong to the point of foolishness. Oh and nothing here was to insult you so stop getting all hot and heavy over nothing. kanelli As I said, some of you can say "God says this is so." There is no obligation to agree with me. However, it would have been nice to have some more exploration of the perceived double standard, or what the Quran says about the differences between men and women that warrant the different rules of dress - but that hasn't happened here. Oh well, I tried to explore a bit. Shaf where are you...? ;) MS There is no double standard. Men and women have to be modest in their dress. Men and women are different in nature though. The whole body of a woman is attractive, and has to be covered. Men have to cover from their belly button to their knees, and what they wear should not be revealing and not tight. So you shouldn't be able to see their tight bums. Look at the men performing Haj. Their arms and shoulders are naked, sometimes their whole upper body. I don't think there is a woman in the world finding them s.e.x.y. Read the posts open minded. Islam came and gave women all their rights: to keep her own name, to choose her partner, to have s.e.x.ual satisfaction in marriage, to have her own wealth, to work, to have an education, ... By the way, the vast majorrity of Muslim women who cover up do this because they are happy about it, and there is no other man or woman who forced her. Moreover, Islam has 1.5 billion passionate followers, and is the fastest growing religion in the world. Islam is logic and makes sense. I suggest that you read about it in an open minded way. kanelli If you read my posts carefully you'd see that I said that Islam is not equal when it comes to the issue of dress. I did not bring up any other issues about equality or inequality between the s.e.xes in Islam. Liban Islam is equal in dress. Think of it this way. Women's s.e.xual centres: hair (s.e.xier than any man's) neck (nibbling on --> women like that) arms (same as neck) breasts (need I say more) legs (women like being bitten on them) belly (ticklish and can be pleasing to caress) pelvic area and bum ('nuff said) Men's sexual areas: belly (same as woman) pelvic area and bum (same as woman) legs (not necessarly a centre but modesty is important) So you see its simply because the centres of arousal of a man and woman are different. But Islam fairly and accordingly demands covering those affected areas :D Chocoholic [quote="MS"]There is no double standard. Men and women have to be modest in their dress. Men and women are different in nature though. The whole body of a woman is attractive, and has to be covered. Men have to cover from their belly button to their knees, and what they wear should not be revealing and not tight. So you shouldn't be able to see their tight bums.
Read the posts open minded. Islam came and gave women all their rights: to keep her own name, to choose her partner, to have s.e.x.ual satisfaction in marriage, to have her own wealth, to work, to have an education, ...
By the way, the vast majorrity of Muslim women who cover up do this because they are happy about it, and there is no other man or woman who forced her.
quote]
MS, but it's not the same though is it? How many times have I seen men on the beach in tight swimming shorts walking along the beach, while their female companion is covered from head to toe - this is hardly equal.
Also I'd say the majority of marriages are arranged, so women are hardly given the right to find their own partner, as it's usually someone found for them. Many muslim women are denied education, denied the right to work, denied the right to have their own money and possessions.
And many, many are forced to cover up through pressure from their families or husbands. So I totally disagree with virtually everything in your post, as very rarely does any of it actually happen. kanelli
I completely disagree :lol: How amusing that you presume to tell a woman what is s.e.xy about a man. The fact is, to Muslims it doesn't matter what women think is s.e.xy. In Islam, the men have decided that all of a woman is s.e.xy and she needs covering. The men wear what they like, no matter if women find it s.e.xy or not. For this reason, I think that Muslim women should be able to dress how they like. If they choose to cover up, they can, and if they choose to show their body they can. That is fair. sharewadi Maybe :shock: . There are some parts (eg nostrils, ingrown toenails, lower intestines, etc) that I don't find attractive, and some women with no attractive body parts. IMHO.
And the ones in Turkey and Lebanon and various other countries who don't cover up are happy about it too no? sharewadi
Some women find men's chests, shoulders, arms, legs, neck, face, eyes, mouths funny also.
Anyway, aren't we back to where we started? Covering up fun objects :? ? kanelli I love my husband's legs, and I nibble his neck, which he purrs over :D There are other women who think my husband is very attractive. Maybe I should suggest to him that he dress in a burkha so that other women don't come after him. Chocoholic I hate feet! I don't like feet in any shape or form! Feet no matter who they belong to should not be let out - blurgh. And it's true what one man finds attractive, another might hate, so how can you say that a womans entire body is attractive, full stop! It's not the case. The bottom line is, no matter what Islam or the Koran says, men interpret it as they see fit, the women have no say, so it's not equality in any sense of the word. kanelli Broad shoulders, a nice 6-pack. Yum! Chocoholic Strong arms, good teeth, bright eyes, soft ears. Ears are a big thing for many people. What is it with guys and the calf muscles? kanelli A burkha for men is definitely needed - they are just too damn s.e.xy! Chocoholic Absolutely, the should be covered all over, so women aren't tempted to jump on them in a lustful frenzy. Liban
Women in the countries you mentionned do cover up also and they are very happy also... So whats your point? Liban
OK, stop now... This is gross and nobody really cares what makes your husband "purr"... YUCKY!!! :pukeright: Dubai Knight
You missed out wet nose and a waggy tail!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Knight arniegang Bugga i missed out on this thread, it has been one of the most interesting for a while, and certainly makes the top ten. Clearly, i havent engaged and have taken the time to read the posts in detail. I find so much i disagree with here and much more that i agree with. I am not going to attempt at this juncture to even attempt making comments on individual posts because so much has been said and it would be taken out of perspective. However i would like to say to Chocs and K how wonderfully you both have worded and put your points across. I really cannot see how anyone could find dispute with the balanced, logical and fair way you have written. I know i am going to get shot down (again) because it would appear i am taking sides. But i think some posters here, and you know who you are, would do well too maybe take time out, then come back and re-read your responses and maybe look at this thread again in its entireity. kanelli
Yeah, I'm sure you puke when you imagine my husband and I fooling around. We are such an unattractive couple. :lol: GoodBai I'm afraid that like so many of the discussions between some of the strict followers of Islam and those who are not, it's a case of never the twain shall meet. Quite honestly I could read the Quran a thousand times and study Islam till the cows came home but I don't think I could ever get to grips with a religion stipulating what a person should wear. To me, wear what you feel comfortable in and what you feel suits you, simple as that. I don't take offence at people covering up and I don't take offence with someone displaying some flesh (as long as it's not those hipsters on someone carrying a GoodYear round their midriff :D ) I think that's fair and reasonable. And, to get back to the original post, I find it ridiculous that anyone could feel a cuddle between two adults around a swimming pool of a hotel could traumatise children and should be stamped out. For pity's sake, just stop trying to lure visitors to come here if their ways are so shocking, damaging and lascivious. That way no-one need be shocked to their foundations by a cuddling couple ever again. Maybe then the pool areas could be converted to house liban's classes in How To Properly Conceal Your Naughty Bits :oops: ! arniegang totally agree with you GB Chocoholic Great post GB. And yes if people are going to make such a big deal of little things, then maybe there should be segregated areas or even separate hotels. One for those who don't mind a small PDA and those who can't possible stand to see two people of opposite gender to touch one another. But lets face it that's just daft. Liban
Why on Earth would I want to imagine you and your husband getting it on??? :shock: kanelli :lol: I just love to yank your chain Liban. You take things so seriously! :lol: Liban
:lol: MS By the way Liban. Who is the cute little girl on your picture? She didn't need to cover up though :D sharewadi
I was talking about the Muslim women in those countries who are happy and don't cover up so much (also the ones you meet here from those countries). My point being that they are Muslim and happily wear what they chose to wear. And presumably are not viewed as fun objects any more or less than other women because of what they wear. Unless we come back to the weakness of men and how women need more covering so that men are less likely to see them as fun objects.
Or did I get that wrong :shock: ? MS When is this gonna stop. Yes, you got it wrong sharewadi. Nobody is disrespecting those women (Muslim or not) who choose not to cover up. Nobody is entitled to judge them. But where's your respect to Muslim women who choose to follow their religion's guidelines and cover up. Why do you keep insulting them? Why do you keep mentioning the fun objects issue. Why are Christian nuns covering up? Why are religous Jewish women covering their hair (in a way), wearing long sleves and long skirts. For God's sake, haven't you seen them. Don't you recognize a common line? sharewadi What? Liban started the fun objects thing if I remember correctly.
I presume they cover up because they choose to. Is there a problem with them covering up?
I have every respect for Muslim women (and men) who choose to cover up. And just as much respect for those who choose not to. I don't respect men of any faith who need women to cover up so they don't view them as fun objects. Sorry if that's not clear. Not sure which part of what I wrote is insulting to Muslim women though. MS Yes, that's the point. There is no problem whatsoever with them (Christians and Jews) covering up. You have to admit though, there is some sort of religous belief involved. The personal choice is definitely about wether to follow religion or not. Again, nobody is to blame. OK, I backtrack on the insulting Muslim women part. But you are definitely insulting someone by claiming that it is the men who asked Muslim women to cover up. It is God who asked them my friend. sharewadi
:shock: Liban
In prayer it is what is supposed to be done. Chocoholic MS, Please do not include Christian Nuns in your analagies as the reason they cover up is for a different reason, we are not talking around average people when we talk about nuns. Also I disagree with you on the men forcing women to cover up. In 90% of cases it is enforced by the families and husbands and has zero to do with the womans personal choice. If a woman chooses to cover herslf as a sign of respect for her religion then fine, I accept that. But in the majority of cases this isn't what happens. Liban
So you say... Chocoholic Well put it this way Liban, I know a few local ladies and many of them have said the same, for them and their friends. Some have said that initially they never used to cover up, but as soon as they got married, their husbands and the in-laws put pressure on them to do so, and so took away their personal choice. Once again I'm not only giving my personal opinion here, but also expressing what I have learned from talking to these ladies, and to be honest do you think they'd talk to a man - a local man about? er no, not really. Liban Just because a few say so doesn't mean 90% of them are like that. :D kanelli
Yeah, most religions are patriarchal and oppress women when it comes to the issue of dress. What is so hard for you to understand about that perspective MS? Chocoholic K, because he's a guy! And a guy who obviously reinforces these things, so how can he possibly understand our perspective. Liban
Many Muslim women (including those who are not veiled) will tell you that a woman who choses to wear the veil, without any hypocrasy, is undertaking in the most beautiful act possible. kanelli
I'm not sure what you mean by "without any hypocrisy".
Yeah, it is a sunny day and as hot as hades, but I really look forward to going outside wearing a black sheet over my entire body. I'll just watch my husband and children swim in the pool and play soccer in the park in their bathing suits, shorts and t-shirts. :lol: Doesn't sound beautiful to me and I would never do it.
I still believe that a woman has a right to choose - so if there are women who are happy to dress this way, or allow themselves to be forced to dress this way by husbands or family etc., then that is their choice. I can respect that. Liban
Without hypocrisy meaning not being forced and not doing it just to pretend to be a practising Muslim only to do un-Islamic things "on the side".
Just because you have no faith in the teachings of Islam doesn't make it any less beatiful. A veil is not supposed to be black per sae. Can be any color (culture makes it black in the Gulf).
So since you are not Muslim and clearly you have no faith in God and any of the other religions (not an insult), you would not understand what it means to submit to God. Therefore you cannot see the beauty in this and it is sad.
If you respect the veil that some women chose to wear then show it by not passing negative judgement on it by saying you do not think its beautiful. Just stop after saying "I respect their choice" then move on.
:D kanelli But many Muslims pass negative judgements on what non-Muslims wear - likening women to whores. The respect is not working both ways my friend. To be honest, too many people submit to religions that contain texts that are very ambiguous. The sheer number of different sects of different religions proves that the number of variations in interpretation of the texts is significant. As well, the culture of the day when the texts were written is not always taken into account, and this could be important when interpreting the texts. Religious people should not just submit, they should analyse. Too many people do things simply because it is custom or everyone else seems to be doing it - and this might very well be the case with women who cover themselves from head to toe. We all know that there are some Muslim women who don't want to wear the abaaya or who cheat on their husbands or drink etc. There are "hypocrits" in every religion - with people practising how they choose to practise. I'm curious as to whether any of you Muslim men would be willing to walk around your house and yard covered from head to toe in your wife's veil and abaaya etc. for a month. It sounds silly, but maybe then you'll know what it feels like for them on a day to day basis. Liban Do you think it is respectable when someone walks around in a tight revealing top with her boobs practically falling out wearing thin white pants with a black g-string or low rise jeans showing off 1/2 her string??? That is what I mean by a whore... Dressing the way you did in the Marina doesn't qualify for that kind of categorization. So no, I will not respect women that wear such clothes and neither should anyone else... K, wearing the gutra and dishdashi is very similar to what the women wear in this region of the world.... So whats your point? kanelli I agree that see-through pants and boobs hanging out is really tacky, but you know what - those women still don't deserve to be disrespected. If you don't like what they are wearing just don't look at them and don't talk to them. To be honest, I like wearing spaghetti strap tops and dresses, tight shirts (with my breasts totally covered and a padded bra so no "headlights" showing). I have two styles of pants that I usually wear - wide-legged dress pants and curve-fitting jeans. In both cases, the curves of my bum are visible, but in a flattering way. I consider my taste in clothing very tasteful, yet I hardly wear some of my favourite clothing in public here because I worry about offending. Liban, I was wearing a similar outfit to what you saw me wearing at the Marina meet, and still got leered at. Men slow down their cars and try to get my attention. Okay, I was alone - but it isn't feasible to have my husband with me at all times! The fact remains that I am still considered a possible whore because of my genetics (a.k.a Western looking), not because of my dress. For this reason, I am starting to think that I should wear what I want here. I'll be considered "easy" anyway, because aren't all non-Muslim women "easy"? Look at all the TV shows that prove that non-Muslim women are sleazy and easy... I hope that you note my sarcasm. :roll: MS
This is a flat lie. You have not seen the majority of cases. This is just the stereotype you hear of. From my personal experience in growing up in Egypt, where I would say 60%-70% of women CHOOSE to cover up, NOBODY is forced to wear anything. I'm quite sure this is the case in the majority of Islamic countries: e.g., Algeria, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia (the largest Islamic country), Malaysia, ...etc.
Note that Muslims are about 1.5 billion. Arab Muslims are only 200 Million (less than 14% of Muslims). Gulf Arabs are merely 20% of Arabs. Egypt's population is 80 Million, a lot more than all Gulf countries combined. I'm telling you this because I'm sure you had the Gulf stereotype in mind when you claimed 90% of Muslim women are forced.
Again, the 90% of women are forced claim is a flat lie out there. MS
Now you start judging. You don't even know me. You don't even know if I'm married or not.
Anyway, I'll comfort you. Yes, I'm a guy. But I respect women to the most extent. I respect what they choose...no matter what they choose. I do not reinforce anything.
It is a dissapointment that you misunderstood me. I only became aggressive when you became aggressive attacking those women who are free to choose to cover up, the same way you are free to disagree with them. I got agressive when I saw how much disrespect you carry to Muslim women who choose to be religious. That's part of the personal freeedom too. Personal freedom isn't just about beeing free to wear a bikini.
Again, just to make sure you know what my purpose behind all this was: I AM DEFENDING THE CHOICE OF MUSLIM WOMEN WHO CHOSE TO COVER UP, AND NOT REINFORCE ANYTHING. (the caps is for clarification not shouting) MS One more thing. I want you to go back and read all my posts. I challenge you to find a single post where I criticized women who do not cover up. It is you guys who critisize Muslim women who cover up. It is my posiiton to defend them. Just to clarify things again, I have nothing against not covering up. If I meet any of you and you're wearing shorts I would still greet you, talk to you, and respect you the same way as those women who do cover up. Just to let you guys know more about me, I have female family members and friends who cover up and who do not cover up. I deal with them all in the same way. I have never approached a women who is not covering up and even suggested to her to cover up. Having said that, it is my responsibilty to defend the choice of those who cover up if they're under attack. arniegang
I disagre yum yum
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ohhhhhhh K, you forgot to mention yer dinky Golf Skirt
:D arniegang ohhhhhhhhh i typed "d i n k y" and it produced a smiley :shock: MS
I agree, this is terrible. The average arab/muslim also has stereotypes. This is an issue that needs to adressed also. arniegang MS it just goes to show that it cuts both ways, it helps to be tollerant and try to see both sides of the issue. kanelli
MS, none of us said that you are criticising women who do not cover up. Liban was criticising them.
Even though you don't put pressure on family members to cover up, that doesn't mean that other people don't do it. I know a Muslim man who recently got married and he is now clamping down on what his wife wears. He no longer lets her wear a bathing a suit or swim in public anymore, and she has to dress more conservatively, even though she never dressed in a s.e.xy way before. I have a non-Muslim friend who has to dress conservatively every time her mother-in-law (who is Muslim) comes to visit. These people are pressured to change their dress but oblige to please the person who is important to them. I can understand both perspectives.
I never look down on women who cover up because they are the same women whether covered or not. What I was criticising was the logic behind why women are asked to cover up in the first place. Liban
Learn to read Kanelli. I only criticized those dressing like whores.
Go back and read what I mean by dressing like a whore.
I am sick of you always not reading my posts and trying to, unsuccessfully I might add, slam me. arniegang Liban I think part of the issue is your use of terminology and in particular the use of the word "whore". In your using this word you are generalising, the same as you state that others like Kanelli generalise about other issues. Just because younger western girls dress differently and a bit "risque" doesnt make them "whores". My daughters dress like how K describes but they are not "whores". It is just fashion, nothing more nothing less. MS
Kanelli, having said that I never put pressure on family members, I haven't denied the right for men and women to discuss any issue with their partner. If your husband likes to party too much (I'm not saying that's the case), then you have the right to discuss this with him, to tell him that this hurts your feelings, and to ask him to stop. Britney Spears has done that :D
Muslims and non-Muslims have a quite different set of values, this is what I was trying to explain. So, it is expected and acceptable that a Muslim man discusses issues with his wife that fall under his set of values, and vice versa ....as long it is discussion. arniegang MS Define "discussion" MS
Discussion is between two (or more) people with possibly different opinions trying to reach a conclusion that makes everybody happy.
Arnie, don't focus only on checking if "we" understand what discussion means. Also think about "your" own society's shortcomings. And it is not about clothing. arniegang I would totally disagree MS with respect. It is about clothing, otherwise like Kanelli says why would people look and stare and others like liban make assumptions?? It still comes down to the same thing in that people assume the clothes you wear give you a "label". In realising our own societies shortcomings we dont assume because someone wears a particular type of clothing we assume what type of person they are. That cannot be said within the ME. In the UK we accept and embrace others cultures and religion whatever their race or gender or colour and this includes their national dress. Again that does not exist in the ME, if you read Kanelli's posts. Please dont patronise me MS. MS I would also disagree with arnie with respect. I also did not mean to patronize you, arnie. When I mentioned it's not about clothing I had this in mind. I was riding the Toronto subway and reading a widely read newspaper. I came across an article that was trying to explain what singles need to do if they desperately need to have s.e.x without rushing into a relationship. The writer, who is a relationships and s.e.x "expert" , was suggesting 2 solutions that are perfectly acceptable: (1) have s.e.x with a friend and call them "friend with benefits", or (2) have s.e.x with a total stranger as long it is safe. Most importantly, satisfy your personal needs. I don't know if you think this qualifies for bein a whore or not. I'm also not claiming that you support this. But it is something to think about: how far will the Western society go in terms of values? Again, the above is not about clothing. Having said that, I admire the democracy and freedom available in the West. Most of our societies lack it, unfortunately. But not because of our religion. (BTW, what do you mean by ME?) arniegang We have a totally different attitude towards s.e.x. Just because someone has a need but doesnt want a full on relationship doesnt make them a whore either. Culturally we are very different in that aspect. S.e.x before marriage is almost now a pre-requisite. Pre nuptual virgins are rarer than rocking horse pooh in the UK. This also does not mean that every woman in the UK is a whore just because she chooses to have various s.e.xual partners before marriage. MS I agree that we have different values, this is what I have been trying to say all along. I wasn't talking about s.e.xual partners (whether I agree with that or not), I am talking about having s.e.x with a total stranger just for the sake of having s.e.x. MS This is a general comment. It is almost impossible to convince somebody to change their values/way of life. I thought this forum could help us understand each other more. Yes, I mean understand, not transform. I thought if we understand each other more, we could be more comfortable living together (in the West or the Middle East). Maybe this could bring this thread closer to its end :D Cheers, arniegang
Why do you find this odd ?
What is the difference between a western woman choosing to sleep with a guy on a first date, and a Muslim/Arab man going to a night club to shag or in paying to shag a western girl for the night?
Which concept of this example dont you understand?? MS
there is no difference ... arniegang

Then you have answered your own question, now qustion the morals and values of individuals within your your own faith with respect. MS
I am criticizing the shortcomings of my society, and of indivuduals of my own faith. I have done that several times in my posts. I have also mentioned what I like about the Western society. I have not seen anybody of "you" guys doing so. You don't need to. You don't have shortcomings, right? arniegang We have shortcomings of course, but there again so many of you do like to keep pointing this out, constantly. MS Fair enough arniegang. In any case, the main purpose of the dialogue is to understand our differences and ways of life more, not to point to the shortcomings. arniegang I agree MS, i hope you now apply this in future, as hopefully the rest of will also. MS Sure. I also hope that you understood our values, and that in the future you will not think it is ridiculous to condemn public cuddling. Chocoholic MS, interesting posts and thanks for your views, very enlightening. kanelli Bringing up the discussion of the fact that non-Muslim women around the world tend to have more freedom when it comes to s.e.x is interesting, but I fear it is being used to justify Muslim men's views on the dress and the value of non-Muslim woman. A woman's sexual history is her business and it doesn't make her any less of a person. The same thing for a man. Sure, there are non-Muslims and Muslims alike having s.e.x outside of marriage - and this can affect their relationship with a life partner, but what it doesn't effect is the way they treat other people, how they do their jobs and other aspects of their life and the way they participate in this world. Chocoholic K, The argument also goes outside relgion and I think is even more a gender thing, funny how men are encouraged to sow their oats as it were, but if a woman does it and is opne about the fact that she enjoys it, then it's frowned upon - that's what I don't get. Again a male double standard. Liban
I have noticed that.
I personally do not agree with it and would request abstenance from my son as much as my daughter in the future. Concord What I find curious is: over 100 posts on the topic (albeit many repeat posters) but NOT ONE appears to be by a Woman Happy to Cover Up. All posts appear to be men justifying it (on religious grounds or otherwise) and woman (who do not cover up) against in (on right-to-choose grounds or otherwise). I wonder why? Of course I don't know or pretend to know but it is simply curious. Could it be that posting is not allowed either? MS Very smart of you counting the posts, Concord. Maybe it was too difficult for you to count the people who contributed to the posts though. 6 people: 2 ladies who don't like to cover up, 1 guy who doesn't like women to cover up, 2 guys who try to defend their faith and try to make you understand another set of values, and 1 person who landed out of nowhere with his intelligent comment that posting is not allowed. Yes, it would be nice if we get more people to contribute from both sides. Dubai Knight How interesting the ebb and flow of this post has become! Apart from the odd facetious comment, I have stayed back out of the discussion but have been lurking with interest... Goodbai's initial post about whether 'cuddling' (and this does not mean s.e.x) between a male and a female whilst in a swimming pool at a 'closed from the public' 5 star hotel should have been reported with the vehemence that the local media seemed to treat it, has led to a lively debate on the relative merits or and mores of dress codes, from speedos to speed dating, men's dominance over women and womens defiance (or not!) of their lot in life and the variant s.e.x.ual habits of western and other societies... Once more, in the tidal breaks between the two opposing sides, there appears to be a fairly unforgiving nature from both directions. OK, my turn to add my twopennys worth: Dubai is attempting to build a vast tourist infrastructure at lightspeed and is tolerant of many of the sights and actions that are accepted as the norm in non Muslim countries. That is why the hotels have private beaches and private environments, so that these activities are NOT on open display to everyone. The majority of tourist visitors to the country are aware of the limitations once they step outside these protected enclaves and there are very few examples of people being warned or criticised on the streets. I have seen the most amazingly crass dress sense in some of the malls, from both male and female and, I might add from both western and Levant origins. (I use the term Levant as there are elements of freedom of dress that are accepted there, that would shock even hardened Europeans!) But still there appear to be few, if any complaints from the hardliners. I see ladies covered from head to foot walking side by side with girls wearing the skimpiest of outfits. There are men in ghutras, walking side by side with guys in vest tops and shorts. We are undoubtedly very lucky to be living and working in an environment where these extremes of dress can be accepted, much the same as walking through the streets of London, Paris, Rome, Sydney or New York, you are bound to see all styles and varieties. A wander along Oxford Street in London and you will encounter Arab ladies still wearing their abayas, happily going about their shopping, and they receive no more attention than anyone else. The differences between the two cultural stereotypes have their extremes but the blended grey areas are where the majority of people accept to live their lives. It all boils down to 'tolerance'. If Dubai is willing to tolerate and accept this introduction of western influence in return for the tourism income it generates, then the west should similarly be able to tolerate variations in dress and culture and religious belief. Thankfully, on the whole, we do. No matter how hard we try, there may be things about both cultures we do not personally agree with or condone, however these are sometimes hard and fast rules that we have to accept and live by depending upon where we are in the world. Accept the culture and integrate into the society without losing sight of the basic elements of your original culture, and everyone should be able to survive with some semblance of dignity. When the day arrives I see fat men walking down the Sheikh Zayed Road in Speedos...then I know that my tolerance level has been exceeded and I shall retire gracefully to the hills! Tolerance requires an element of 'give'...from both sides. :D :D :D Knight MS I agree with your post to a big extent, Knight. MS arniegang Great post DK. Concord DK, agree 100% and have no doubt that there already exists a great deal of tolerance even here. Of course event places like London, New York, Sydney, Paris, etc. have intolerant people - luckily for al these are increasingly a marginalized minority. Tolerance is, as it should, spreading worldwide more that intolerance... I carry my passport with me all the time and when I see the Guy you mentioned in your post and heading directly to the airport! GAB I find these posts funny in a strange/odd way to read. People express their views and base their stance on either their "culture " or "religion". Sorry, but that's crap. This is a personal issue. Funny that Liban and I would agree and we neither share culture nor religion. kanelli
And what does one base one's personal opinions on?
All of us are affected by our culture and religion - they give a base for our views on issues and they shape our behaviour. GAB Interesting? What is culture? Either where you have been raised ie your nationality or to do with race? My race is undertermined/unidentifiable and really I don't feel I identify with a particular culture. Life experience has formed my opinions and stance on "things". I am not religious but have been exposed to various religions and seen first hand the good, bad and very ugly side of religion. One can determine their own morals or ethics without using religion or culture as a basis to those values. My values differ from my family members, so I think the values one possesses come from within. Behaviour is more complex than just religion or culture. sharewadi
It adds "authority" to an opinion. Instead of insulting me, you're insulting my religion and/or culture and then it's easier for me to criticise your opinion.
But that's only my opinion :? ... GAB Excellent point sharewadi. :D the_zooter
Ok, I've tried to stay out of this so far, and see how the thread goes, but now I'm going to throw my views in to the melting pot....
An excellent point Sharewadi, and to a certain extent that is true of some people, but not all people.
I personally think that my culture and background has shaped the ways and views that I have. A lot of that is down to my parents and also my peers - their views, to a certain extent, start to shape your own – other peoples views and beliefs have a huge impact on you when you are growing up.
Sometimes, the surroundings you are in can't help but change your views on society. Certainly for me, personally speaking, I've become much more laid back over the years and that has come with a more relaxed attitude to many things - dress, s.e.x, religion etc.
Where I come from, when I was growing up, my town could be summed up as being white, Christian and working class - but now things have changed. More and more ethnic minorities have moved to the area, industries in the town have changed as have the people - life here is very different now, which is as much to do with the changing attitudes of people as the people themselves changing.
Most of you on the forums have travelled about, all around the world, as have I. You see different cultures and that certainly broadens your opinions and beliefs – to some it may change your views, to others it just strengthens their existing views.
What I have learnt over the years, and have come to terms with and am now comfortable with, is that everyone is different. Each culture and religion is different, but even within cultures and religions, people have vastly differing views on ‘fundamental’ topics. Whilst I may not personally want to going around drinking myself silly (I don’t drink alcohol) or smoke or sleep with every girl I meet – I’m comfortable with people acting like that. Its their lifes – they can do what they wish with it – that’s my view. I’m not going to ram my opinions down people’s throats – I’m hardly saying that I’m right and my way is the only way – its one way – and there are many ways!
So perhaps the thing I still don’t understand is how and why people get so upset and angry that a person is acting in a way they don’t personally believe in. Maybe someone can help to answer that for me? sharewadi Ok, I'll have a go at answering your questions TZ. If they were rhetorical then, ... um ... , you can ignore them :shock:

Because they are offended by it, because they are jealous, because something has a material negative impact on their own lives eg if you insert a banana into someone's ear, they may go deaf. To answer that further ...
Would you revise that statement if a girl acting like that was your friend? Cousin? Sister? Daughter? Younger daughter? Mother? Wife?
My point being that at some stage you will be less tolerant to the extent that it will be difficult for you to "live and let live". That stage varies from culture to culture and person to person.
I believe there are some cultures (Eskimos and Tory Strait Islanders?) where the fun interaction is at a level that Westerners would find odd at best, but more likely offensive and/or immoral. Especially if these people moved to your country and displayed that behaviour publicly. Now call yourself a Muslim and call them Westerners. Perhaps that explains better how Muslims feel when they see Western behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun. arniegang Gabsy........................ Are you ok ?? :wink: :wink: :wink: GAB Nice post Zooter. I tend to agree-everyone is different and there are so many variables within each culture and each religion I find it annoying that people have the audacity to speak for "all"..............I always think who died and made you king! Sharewadi you should rephrase Perhaps that explains better how Muslims feel when they see Western behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun. to read Perhaps that explains better how Westerners feel when they see Muslims behaviour in terms of dress codes and fun. Because, hey, I've seen it from both sides!! I also understand there are acceptable types of public behaviour and in most countries they are governed primarily by laws. One would hope morality is on a pretty even keel for everyone but it is not. sharewadi
If I understand you correctly then no :). Because I was attempting to address understanding and behaviour acceptable within different cultures, not actual behaviour of different individuals - I think your statement is intended to address that yes?
What Eskimos/TSI find culturally acceptable is not in the view of most westerners. Never mind that some westerners behave in just the same way. Which means your statement is actually quite appropriate :)... GAB My point is culture and religion does not define a person's ethics nor acceptance of behaviour-we are talking more about traits and individualities surely. I've seen behaviour from people inconsisitent with their so-called religion or culture. Quite frankly I find the articles in this paper one sided, with this hollier than thou attitude that doesn't wash when you actually have a good look around you-it is not just Westerners (which I presume they mean white skinned people-which I also take offence to because I am pretty sure but your skin colour doesn't determine your religion or define you as being Western, unless of course you are a bigot and stereotype) which behave in the manner specified. the_zooter
Ok, firstly, my question wasn't retorical - so thanks for answering it!!
In answer to your direct response (above), I can honestly say that I wouldn't revise that statement. I have many friends that act like that - certainly 99% of my friends drink alcohol (most probably to excess!), most of them wouldn't think twice about jumping into bed whether every guy or girl that came along etc. I can't answer about a wife or daughter. With a wife, I would like to think that the 'sleeping with everyone' part would automatically become redundant because they are in a loving and serious monogomous relationship, but I wouldn't have a serious problem with them drinking. As for daughters, well a father would want to protect their daughters into adult life, but as long as you have brought them up well, and shown them the potential pitfalls of their actions, I don't see why any adult can't make an informed decision about their own actions.
Above all else, I said that these were my views and everyone is entitled to live how they want. I do see your point though, but its not relevant to me. kanelli Sorry, but religion and culture do shape people's viewpoints. As much as you would like to say they don't - they do. I'm not saying they are the only things that shape people's viewpoints, but they are significant. Sometimes it is common practises that shape people's views - they just don't think outside the box. For example, I had friends who had a home birth without a midwife or doctor - just the husband and wife. They did this for all three kids. So many people would call them irresponsible for not giving birth in hospital with trained personnel. Yes, it is the norm that people give birth in hospitals in many countries, but not everywhere. In the Netherlands I believe that about 40% of births are home births (with midwives though). If you ask a person why they are shocked at a home birth they might say that it isn't safe or sanitary, it endangers the child and mother's life etc. They many not have read the facts about mortality or complication rates for home births and hospital births - all they know is that the hospital is where responsible people have their babies. If you challenge that view they can just tell you, "Well, everyone gives birth in the hospital - it the modern way for women to give birth." Without exploring the facts or logic, people can be very entrenched in their opinions based on common practises in their culture. I hope this explanation makes sense. :) sharewadi That's a tolerance limit for you then - I mean if you're wife was unfaithful (isn't the statistic something like 30% of women and 50%+ of men are?)?
Hmmmm.... and if she was 16 (legal age of consent in the West) and he was say 30 or 40? Or she had several on the go at the same time?
I'm not trying to wind you up (I hope you're not a father with a 16 year old daughter who's just met a 30 year old bloke!), just trying to say it's easy to say we're tolerant but sometimes we're not as tolerant as we say we are.

Very significant - not necessarily for everyone though. And people can and do change significantly also if their own ideas of ethics and behaviour become different from what they were brought up to believe. kanelli [quote="sharewadi]
Very significant - not necessarily for everyone though. And people can and do change significantly also if their own ideas of ethics and behaviour become different from what they were brought up to believe.
Exactly, and living abroad and having friends from other backgrounds helps people see and understand different perspectives.
People don't always change their viewpoints, but there is no harm in discussing about different viewpoints. For this reason I don't think our discussion in this thread has been "crap" - in fact I think it was very interesting. the_zooter
An excellent point Kanelli. People living in Dubai should feel themselves lucky that there is such a mixed and diverse population. I just think that if Dubai wants to become a vibrant, comopolitan, tourist destination, then some people's attitudes are going to have to relax just a little. Whilst they may not like it or agree with it, as long as it (whatever "it" might be) isn't thrust in your face all the time, then those with the problem shouldn't be so quick to condemn others.
My mum always says:
GAB
Fine, darling! :lol: Was I short on niceties last week? Sorry, if I offended anyone.
I didn't say the discussion was crap but I think I've already gone over it. can't be stuffed reiterating. :D
I think it is interesting to discuss where peoples ethics and morals come from-but you only have to look within a family say and see that even with the same upbringing siblings form radically different codes of conduct and for that matter likes and dislikes. Your interactions with others can hugely influence your opinions and your perspective and outlook on life. People are complicated. raidah LIVE AND LET LIVE too bad there r so many who don t see the beauty of this the_zooter
exactly!



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