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Is religion such an important thing?


St.Lucifer To Shafiq (coincidently my best friends name too :) ) and many others,
This post or question is not to hurt anyone's feelings or shackle anyone's faith, its just some random thoughts raised from experiences in life and thinking beyond. Religions and economic divide, 2 most imp things that r braking the world into pieces.
The Good and the Bad
I wouldnt say that any popular religion is bad or they teach wrong, because they all were formed to make this world a better place and educate its people about moral values. But in doing so it has lost its purpose... reasons, world grew smaller.. and people of different religions came together, they had to interact with each other. then , world started facing issues. and people have been tought and mislead to believe their religion is superior to others'.
The question of a Perfect religion, deepest faith
My arguments are multifaceted, to my understanding, faith and concept of God were created by men to find logic for unanswerable questions and to make human beings stick to moral values as acceptable to the majority of a society. A few good, noble men were catalysts in the structuring of new religions, in doing so they only had good faith and well being of people in mind. And then came the writings and scriptures of religions.
Sacred Books
All the religious books are so enticing and awakening to read. Be it be Quran, Bible or Vedas, Upanishads, and etc etc. All the popular religions believe that their scriptures were not man made or they are the teachings of God. Hindus believe that the Vedas are 'apaurusheya' (not human compositions) like wise the belief of other religions. An open mind can understand that these rules of life, teachings of God, rode to a good society were all created long, long back in time. Just as everything else in life, change has to happen to everything. To people's viewing of these scripts as well. Most of the concepts in these sacred texts are written in the form of parables, which were a very common and effective way of expressing ideas and educating the seekers in the era of face - to - face education or oral tradition. But sadly, trying to understand the written text and taking its meaning as it seems is the most common mistake followed by masses. Even if u give your time to understand what is meant by a parable, you would miss many a things due to the fact that these scriptures were written at a different time. and most of the teachings are dependent and concerned to that time. Due these reasons, religious scripts or for that matter most of the dated scripts are open to be interpreted and understood in many different ways, often only helping the reader to get the wrong message.
God and Religions
Sometimes, I feel sad for the fate of world. Ask about God to people of different faith, u'll know that most of them fail to understand the core concept of religions. These are the teachings of ways to reach God. But God as such is omnipotent, or to my belief is in everything, everywhere, in u and me.. everything in the universe. Again it may differ with an 's' in differnt faiths.. everything is GOD's or Everything is GOD. I believe God and Universe are the same. or just like I read from a book called mustard seed, the concept of God is like a mustard seed. the tiniest seed u can spot with naked eyes, yet it grows into such a big plant. If someone who had not seen a mustard seed comes and digs to see the mustard seed anywhere in the roots or branches, he'll only be disappointed. Faith in God, again a personal choice, is similar to that story. If people understand that Mr. Bush being addressed as Bushy.. by his friends, or as Booboo by his grandchildren or as Big.B by some dic, doesnt make him a different person. Its just the different names for the same reality.
Problems with religious Faiths
Performing rituals and following a faith should be strictly by choice. It shouldnt be forced up on to anyone. Politics, ruling and religions should never be mixed. Religions shouldnt promote such faiths and rituals that separate people from the society. They must try to unite in every possible way. In appearance, social life and approach.
Give freedom,education and love to the younger generation. Who knows, we may see yet another prophecy.
shafique Problems with religious Faiths
Performing rituals and following a faith should be strictly by choice. It shouldnt be forced up on to anyone. Politics, ruling and religions should never be mixed. Religions shouldnt promote such faiths and rituals that separate people from the society. They must try to unite in every possible way. In appearance, social life and approach.
Agree 100%.
As to the title of the thread - Is Religion such an important thing? Yes it is.
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer Y do u say so? Do u think moral values cant exist without being strictly religious. Long preachings from religious authorities and organizations have only promoted people to believe that their faith is better than other ppl's and that is the best. Which leads to seperating people again. This has only lead to more problems. Instead, had these religious groups taken some effort to teach, that people, humanbeings and the moral values are more imp than proving their religion is best, then world would've been a much much wonderful place. Don u think humanitarianism, and belief in all are equal regardless of their faiths would be good? Or Do u think, only the ways of Islam is right? asc_26
NOT REALLY. We can survive without religion. shafique
Basically, any religion that teaches you do separate or do harm to others is wrong - so that takes care of the social aspect.
Religion also (and some say primarily) addresses one's own wellbeing - my contention is that one cannot find true peace without religion.
It also hinges around what you define religion to be - I define it to be a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life. Islam means following/submission to the will of God so that one finds peace - i.e. living by the rules that bring one to harmony with fellow mankind and also with the Creator of the Universe.
A person, in my opinion and experience, is not complete until they are at peace with themselves and the world - and this is what religion offers.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
Some people aspire to do more than just survive.
Cheers,
Shafique asc_26
We can aspire more, dream more, achieve more even without religion. Religion will only make people more chaotic and confused. shafique
Will only ?
Sounds like preaching to me. :lol:
I respectfully beg to differ.
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer Shafique, With no ill intentions, do you think islam is the best religion? asc_26
FALSE: The non-believer and/or atheists are at peace even without religion.

All religions on earth are saying the same thing.

We can be at peace so long you're not doing any harm against fellow human being. The atheists are at peace too.

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asc_26
Will only ?
Sounds like preaching to me. :lol:
I respectfully beg to differ.
Cheers,
Shafique
:lol:
I am not preaching. It's just an opinion from what i see, religion, people who believe in religion, and people's way of life while believing in their religion. Sometimes, it doesn't make sense at all. shafique
Yes.
It is the only religion that claims to be complete and final.
Also, from a logical perspective, it stands up to close scrutiny.
Cheers,
Shafique asc_26
:shock: :shock: :shock: Bleakus
i think no one should answer that question dude, what are you trying to do seriously :evil: shafique
I think it's a legitimate question and you will see above I have answered.
However, I have to say that you can't reallly answer the question without have seriously studied other religions and read from the original scriptures (or translations of them) AND sought the views of people who follow the religions. One should not judge a religion from only what the opponents of that religion say (actually that is a general principle of mine on any subject).
Cheers,
Shafique scot1870
Well, I've said a lot about the merits of atheism over my time on here and I stand by them. If you want to believe, it's up to you though, neither of us will ever prove otherwise. However, on the logic point, Islam still relies on a leap of faith like all other faiths, once you've made that leap I'm sure the logic seems sound but from this side of the fence there will always be flaws.
However, as the newest faith, it does beg the questions, just who did the Hindus, Christians etc. think they were talking to all those years ago??? St.Lucifer
Nice views Shafique. Bleak Dude.. The point is, just as you can see above, religion segregate people, or atleast thats what it does as in its form today. Remember, most of the religious people believe that their religion is the best. :) so what happens, arent they bound to be compared then? and what does it lead to? We have answers infront of our eyes.
If this world was to have only 1 religion, God would have made everyone in that religion. Or if u think thats your mission, to make everyone follow the religion u follow, where do u respect others' religion. If u have the ability to think above the biased mind, the teachings and think as a free spirit, thats the best and purest thoughts u can ever have. And thats when a man actually realizes himself.
(He, Man, You, your etc are used in a generic sense) shafique
Scot, in my view Atheism requires a larger leap of faith - to not believe in a Creator requires belief in an impossibly small probability that we came into being without the intervention of an outside, rational force. :)
But seriously, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
As for Hindus etc - Islam teaches that all these religions were true and that all historic religions were temporal (bounded by time) and spatial (bounded by Geography). With the evolution of man - physically and socially - the needs of religion changed. The religion of Noah is different from Moses and Muhammad, only in complexity, not in the basics.
Islam is the only religion that acknowledges previous religions and religous founders as truthful - Krishna, Confucious, Buddha, Jesus etc are all founders of religions and taught the same basic message of worshipping one God. Sometimes you have to go back to their original to see this - but Islam teaches that all peoples were sent Messengers from God and logic tells us how to look back at history and identify these.
In all of the previous religions too, the teachings explicitly say that the religion is not finalised and that another Prophet/Teacher/Messenger is to come. Christianity and Judaism talk of a great law-bearing prophet after the Messiah (Jesus) - Deuteronomy 18.18 onwards. Hinduism talks of further appearances of Krishna, as does Buddhism (in the same way John the Baptist was the second coming of Elijah).
Islam is the first religion which brought a complete scripture that was dictated word by word as the utterances of God and which carries a promise that God will protect it. This promise has been fulfilled.
In this message, for the first time - religion is declared complete and final and we are challenged to examine the religion critically and use our intellect.
I have no issue with people choosing to believe in something else or nothing at all - I will actually fight to preserve this right. This is BECAUSE of what Islam teaches, not despite it.
Here endeth the sermon for today :)
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer
Shafique, you are wrong at couple of places. Krishna is not a religious leader. :) and islam is not the only religion that recognizes others. Infact that was news to me :) religions like Hinduism says, there will be other religions and faiths that come in, but they all lead to the same way. And Jainism and Budhism upto a certain extent are totally different faiths. Its not based on the trade off between Good n bad for Heaven n hell. So you may follow islamic scriptures of bible n yet b a hindu. Buddism and Jainism are purely based on spiritual and moral values. And most of the eastern religions are much more philosophical and open.
Hiduism for example, says
Truth is one(truth to mean God), the wise call it in many different ways.
and it also continues to say that the spiritual truths of the Vedas are eternal but continue to be expressed in new ways.
this is the very reason why the Hindu scriptural rules are not closed but evolving even today. Also I've felt that the harder and more spoonfed the teachings are, the lesser will be the ability for free thinking.
shafique Interesting points St Luc - but I don't think I was wrong... let me explain. Yes, Krishna is not viewed as a religious founder by the Hindus, however I do believe he was a mortal person who founded the religion. I believe he was elevated to the status of a god over time - but if you go back to his original teachings, it is monotheistic. In fact, the concept of Brahma in Hinduism is of an all powerful God. As for Hinduism recognising prior religions and other prophets, I think you aren't right to equate the teachings of many paths to salvation with the recognition of other prophets and holy books. Ask a Hindu priest whether the Bible is a true word of God and whether we should follow the precepts in the Bible (including the dietary laws, for example). It will be interesting to see whether he agrees with your view that they recognise Judaism as a true religion that leads to the same goal. (You may also mischievously ask them why in ancient puranas the eating of meat was advocated as beneficial and it is clear that Brahmins kept and ate cow meat.) For Buddhism - Gautama Buddha's original teachings are also monotheistic and do not reflect what the west understands the teachings of Buddhism to be (an eternal cycle, no God as such etc). I'll have to dig out the references and start a new thread on this. Similarly the teachings of Jainism (which is aligned to Hinduism, sharing some concepts - but a separate religion) at source have monotheistic themes and have been re-written/added to over the years. The striking point though is that none of these religions' holy scripture make the claim to being the final or universal religion. All maintain that there will be future messengers who will bring new messages (a fact you allude to in the development of Hindu scripture). Islam claims to be evolutionary peak of the former religions - something other religions don't do. Cheers, Shafique valkyrie
What's Islam's stance on Evolution - Do Muslims believe that humans evolved from animals?
Islam is the only religion that acknowledges previous religions and religous founders as truthful
%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith shafique Valkyrie, I think we've discussed the Islamic view of creation and evolution before - when discussing the Quranic verses about creation - that life was created from inorganic material and water (dust and water) and that man and all living creatures did evolve. We do not believe we evolved from modern monkeys (which is not what evolution teaches anyway) but that all life evolved over time from basic lifeforms to the more complex organisms of today. As an aside, it is this process of the development of complex life forms and the universe in general that means I cannot be an atheist - as I cannot have the faith required to believe this all came about by chance alone. As for Bahaism and Babism (the original sect created by the 'Bab') - these are off-shoots of Shia Islam. I have read the Kitab-e-Aqdas and also the original book of the Bab (sorry, I forget the name of the book). Bab did not claim to bring a new religion and his followers considered themselves Shia Muslims, Bahai did declare a new religion and claimed to receive revelations. Bahai was executed and hence suffered the same fate as the Mormon founder (who was also shot). As such, both Bahai and Joseph Smith fail the tests of true prophets laid down in the Bible and Quran (see Deut 18.20) Anyway - both Bahaism and Mormonism(for example) are religious groups founded AFTER the rise of Islam - I said that Islam recognises the previous religions and founders and says that Islam is the final religion. No new religion will come from God according to the Quran (note, this hasn't stopped me studying Bahaism and the Mormon books). Cheers, Shafique St.Lucifer Shafique, I'd like refer to some of the issues stated here. Hinduism to its true believers is/has always been monotheistic.And just like Krishna, All the prophets were mere mortal beings, who had an enlightened heart, mind an soul, who strived to teach good to people and unite them. not to separate them. I think I mentioned about Buddism n Jainism as references to being open and more philosophical faiths.. which gives freedom to individuals and promotes coexistence. I'd like to point out n correct you that Brahma is not the all powerful god, but he's identified as the Creator and one of the Hindu Trinity( which are essentially believed to be different forms of God in carrying out different tasks) It is Brahman(Greater Self),Parambrahman or Sat-Chit-Ananda(sacchidananda) that is considered as the God. but the notable difference is in the way it is mentioned, It is not the goodness or all powerful image of God that you get from other religions thats is attributed, but the Brahman( much more than our understanding of God) is "Brahman is knowledge", (prajnanam brahma) "The Self (or the Soul) is Brahman " (ayam atma brahma) "I am Brahman" (aham brahmasmi) "You are that" (tat tvam asi) "All this that we see in the world is Brahman", (sarvam khalv idam brahma), "Brahman is existence, consciousness, and happiness" (sachchidananda brahma). Thus, Brahman is conceived of as the very essence of existence and knowledge, which pervades the entire universe, including every living being. Interestingly, it should be worth noting that Islam and Christianity are strictly bound to good and evil, unlike concepts in Hinduism that says everything is One. And the faith is not bound to heaven or hell, its more oriented towards promoting moksha of the soul. The goal of life is stated variously as the realization of one's union with Brahman, attainment of the vision of God, attainment of perfect love of God, realization of the unity of all existence, perfect unselfishness, liberation from ignorance, attainment of perfect mental peace, or detachment from worldly desires. The goal is to have the direct experience of divinity. The experience of divinity is the only thing that can give one true peace and happiness, and salvation from suffering and ignorance. I could consider your suggestion of asking a hindu priest about following bible as the scripture :D. or i can just know about Islam from chowdry's and lots of other modern UK 'islamic pundits'. :? I think I've made my ponit clear. :D Eating Bief, pork etc are mere personal choices for me :) I know lot of hindus, including brahmins who eat beef :) and muslims who eat pork ;) well that may b just the speciality of Indian Muslims and so called liberated hindus :). The fact is the more one sticks to whats written, and believes that one's religion is the only one and the true. Issues are going to crop up and problems are never gonna end. And it is hight time that all the religions stop teaching religion and take up humanitarianism and free moral values. St.Lucifer
Coexistence, hmm. So Islam or its people dont believe or dont recognize or dont respect any new age religions? shafique Thank for your clarifications. I meant Brahman and not Brahma - thanks for highlighting the difference. Islam is not bound by Good vs Evil - I'm not sure where you got that from, there is no fight as such. God created humans with the capacity of choice - evil is just the lack of goodness, like dark is the absesnce of light. To give humans the choice of doing good, by default evil is also created - by the choice not to do good. There is no fight between evil and good - just a struggle of intentions pulling to do good or not do good. Also, thank you for reinforcing my view that Hinduism is at its core monotheistic and was founded by mortal men. Many people I have spoken to insist Hinduism is idolatrous at its core and polytheistic - raising its saints to the status of gods. The great Monotheistic faiths - worshipping of one God - are all from the same source according to Islam, and were local religions with local rules. These were all superseded when Islam came along, fulfilling the prophecies in all of these religions of a new prophet/avatar/messenger. I was being serious about asking Hindu priests to confirm your view about their acceptance of other religions as being truthful - I still maintain that only Islam allows for previous prophets and their messages being truthful and relevant for their time and their people. However, I am not all-knowing and if Hinduism does share this trait - then I will have learnt something. Cheers, Shafique freza hahaha, are you serious???
umm, you're talking about nationalism, and politics as it has always existed NOT religion. Many a fight for conquest have been about territory more than religion, they're about a hierarchy and an economic and/or strategic gain more than anything. Religion has played a mostly symbolic or anecdotal role in conflicts. Or it has been an EXCUSE to inflict conflict in which case men have twisted and muddied the true purpose of their religion. In such cases religion is not to blame but, you guessed it, a group of men and their ulterior motives are to blame. And that group is usually separated by race or political affiliation or other motive, the twisted version of religion is just an excuse. Quite a simple concept really, I don't see why it's so difficult to understand. You can easily replace the word religion with "politics" or "race" in your long post here and you would have arrived at a more complete rationale.
If you say so! :) Love the way you flatter yourself! Ummm, concept of God created by men? This is akin to saying that a son created the concept of his mother. The mom exists with or without the son, whatever concept the son might have of her. God is the logical conclusion as to why the universe and life exists with or without humans, there is something out there that was not "created" (for lack of a better word) the same way that we were and it can exist without human rationalization :)
You're clearly not a fan of religion, so why do you worry your thoughts about it? Can't you see your own bias towards it? Cuz it's quite clear from where I'm looking at it....
For someone that doesn't care much for religion why even bother? I wouldn't if I were you, but if you like to talk about (against it) I would surely try to understand the concept of it a whole lot better.... freza Does religion make you chaotic and confused and unable to survive? Oh Harlequin, you silly thing... shafique
No, we don't believe in following other religions or believe in the claims of the founders of the newer religions. That would be obvious, I would think.
However Islam teaches tolerance and freedom of faith and has practiced this in the past (and unfortunately many clerics are less than tolerant these days - insisting, for example, that apostacy is a crime punishable by death).
I respect other peoples right to believe in fairies or any other fairy tale or any other belief system. I have had cordial discussions with Wicans to Sikhs, Buddhists to Hippies - but at the end, where we disagree - we agree to disagree.
The Quran, for example, says that fighting is sometimes required to protect Churches, Synagogues and Temples (and puts mosques last in the list). I don't believe I have come across another religion which advocates the protection of other faiths - to the extent of fighting if necessary.
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer
:) Nice post Freza..
Yea by all means I dont mean to hurt anyone's feelings. If u'd known me or my friends..you would've known what is happy coexistence and healthy arguments. :P oops I guess that was self flattering at best :) n good to know I'm good at it n peeps are liking it.
I firmly believe that religions and the concept of God is very clearly 'created' by men. Animals dont have Gods and religions or do they have?? i dont know.. someone not born into a religion, never heard of God, never read any religious books.. would he start thinking of a supernatural force? to my understanding yes, what would happen then.. would he create a new set of rules a guide book of how he understands what God is ? this may lead to a new religion. just some random thoughts.
Y do I worry about religion, may b to create a new movement. :)
well, the reason.. hurt by watching the world being segregated. Even with all the effort put in to educate people and make them understand about other religions, people are just starteing to draw boundaries on the basis of faith. I dunno if its a worldwide phenomenon, but I can clearly see people making use of it in different places that I know.
Call it politics, national interests, money or resources or what ever makes use of religion... thats y its so important to know y is it getting utilized. If everyone were same atleast there would b one less shelter for those bad guys . and this isthe point that I'm are trying to address. :)
So does it make me a religious person? Does it make me follow one particular religion? Hmm I'm still evolving there. And I dont think I would ever know these things very cery clearly. Coz I still found myself amazing :P which means.. I dont know/ cant predict myself very clearly and precisely. The day I knwo myself, and realize I'll get the answer to all :D
sheesh that makes me look like a dread n done pessimistic soul. :) asc_26
It's my personal views. Why don't you just respect it instead of calling me a harlequin. I am not. St.Lucifer
Shafique... being born in India... u know, there are lots of things that u realize and understand in yoa day to day life. but more things keep u thinking and unanswered..
Hope you have heard of babri masjid issue.
It is believed that in 1530's Muslim invader Babur(who ruled many parts of norther India for years) ordered his commander-in-chief Mir Baki to destroy an existing temple at the site and construct Babri masjid.
Hindu's demolished the sacred masjid in Ayodhya on dec 6th, 1992.
There were nation wide fights, protests, killings, riots. It happens time and again and even special speaches on that day at masjids as well as temples. Many many Monuments and even a worldwonder supposedly belonged to Indian rulers and people of yesteryears... who ofcourse existed much before Islamic movement started in India. So Do u say its right to claim back these properties. :) in a way they are protecting their faith and temples. If u look the otherway.. many of them are mosques/ masjids now.. so muslims have their right to protect their place of worship.. both can even fight to protect their interests. :D
Makes me wonder... arent we all same.. humanbeings... and if religions were just personal practices.. which is more of self evolving kind and if all were just happy with what ever religion other may be following.. wouldnt it be a much better place. It would be. and I hope that day will come. freza Now I really don't mean to hurt your feelings (and I am being sincere), but this above sounds like something a kid would say/ask. Kids are supposed to outgrow these very basic phases of questioning religion and their place in the universe....Hhhmm...And the rest of what you wrote is all over the place... Geesh. :scratch: You clearly didn't try to understand my arguments, so it's quite useless to try to understand whatever it is that you think you believe in and whatever it is that you're not content in seeing others believe in. You remind me of another DF character, no matter what anyone says, the character only hears the voices in his head. Good luck with your new movement, I'm sure it will be a hit!
What you previously wrote didn't sound like coherent opinions, they sounded more like sweeping, rash, generalized and completely unsubstantiated statements. Like calling you a fool would be a rash statement, I guess it would be better to say: In my own opinion I respect the views of the Harlequin, as ridiculous as they might be. shafique I sense a fight brewing. :) I know better than to step into two ladies having a lively discussion. :lol: StL - yes I am aware of the Babri incident. A lot of harm is done in the name of religion, just as a lot of harm is done in the name of nationalism (Hitler, for example). We can Imagine a world without countries and religion too :wink: , but philosphically, if you believe in Monotheism and the common humanity, don't you think God would have one message for the whole of mankind? Remember also, cause and effect, just because a lot of bad is done in the name of religion by a minority, does not mean religion is the problem. It is convenient to label actions as 'Islamic' when they are just criminal - similarly, the barbarity done by man against man seems to know no religous bounds - even in the Dalai Llama's camp in India, monks killed other monks over the interpretation of scripture (this was a few years back when the Dalai branded the veneration of a particular saint as dangerous) - and we all know the examples of barbarity carried out by Christians, Hindus etc. In all cases the violence was DESPITE the religious teachings and carried out by the minority of adherents of the respective religions. Cheers, Shafique St.Lucifer
Hey Freza... :)
Hey I'm sorry for the way I write. Perhaps I'm not all that good at it... wow atleast..seems like I've found someone who understands the child in me :| ( now dont say thats from a movie). but dont b just like as a rough nanny who never cares for the kids or whatever they've to say. St.Lucifer
Still the question and my quest continues... is religion such an important thing. :) asc_26
NO. St.Lucifer
That was quick n tight.. :D I got the answer so fast ;).. just kiddin k.. Chill Asc.. shafique I'm pro-choice, therefore if people want to follow a religion and think it's important, I won't presume to tell them they're wrong. From an academic standpoint, empirically religion has done more good than harm and therefore mankind has benefited from religion. I just see what happens to societies that loose their moral compass when they move away from religious values to see the positive impact religious values has on society. Pride in one's nation and desire for material wealth has created much more death and destruction than any religion. Very few wars have been fought to convert someone to another religion, but many have been fought to gain control over territories and people (and only a few instances of mass forced conversions - mostly in Europe). Sorry, I meant to just say 'yes' - as I did in my first post in this thread. :lol: Cheers, Shafique St.Lucifer
One should look into the things that follows too..religious schools and orgs creep up behind every opportunity given, war, economic crisis et al.
I dont agree that religion as such has improved societies..empirical evidences, can be derived to show that as well.. :D
:)
I believe closing ones ideas on the issues of religion and philosophy and spiritual thinking would be just shutting down the entrance to knowledge, to knwo the truth.. :D There may b a huge age gap between us Shafiq, so may b u've already found what it means to u. But i guess everyone has to go through the quest and this journey .. but with an open mindset. not biased. Thats y I asked this question, and still ask it, coz to me, a human relations, moral values and principles are much more imp than religion. Or this should be the driving force of a religion or the teachings from it. shafique I don't equate religion with intolerance or being closed minded. That is certainly not what Islam teaches. As for socitiety not benefiting from religious values, I would be interested in hearing your arguements for it being detrimental (empirically). I would be particularly interested in hearing why you would believe that more people did not benefit from following a religion than those who were harmed by following a religion (which is what you are saying when advocating that religion does not benefit society). I say let everyone choose what they want to follow - religion is, after all, only a set of rules by which one chooses to live one's life. Cheers, Shafique asc_26
It is like saying, people who believe in religion are limited cos they're put inside the box i.e set of rules, which they're bound to follow. It is also the same as, you are being dictated by the so-called set of rules on what you're going to do.
:roll: shafique
Huh?
Laws are sets of rules too. There are those who advocate we don't have any laws at all.
The whole thing about religion is that it is a recipe to achieve a certain goal. If you don't want to achieve that goal, then you are free to not follow the recipe. Just because you don't like to eat cake or don't believe there will be a cake at the end of the process, doesn't mean you should criticise those who want to follow the recipe.
mmmm - cake......
Cheers,
Shafique asc_26 :lol: Mmmm...Pancake, cupcake..geez! shafique :lol: mmm Doughnuts (I haven't had any sweets or cakes for 6 weeks now... but strangely, no cravings unless I'm reading this thread :) ) freza Shafique, you are way too generous with the weak minded. asc_26
Laws of man is quite different from laws of God like what religious peeps are saying. Unless if the laws of the land were pattern from religious books. Hahah... made me laugh. Do government officials who implement the laws have rituals?

Recipe? I wonder what's the point of beleiving in religion (supposed preach goodwill), then curse people after saying a prayer. I wonder why my colleagues who pray everyday or even perform rituals, don't get promoted at work. I wonder what kind of recipe they're using to achieve their goal. Spiritual Goal? Again, leap of faith.
Remember: I am not imposing on people not to believe on religion. Let them be. St. L asked the question and so i aired by views. freza You can find more consise and less emotional ways of giving your opinion asc. You straight out sound bitter. What happened to you? You prayed for a handsome prince and instead got a frog? It's not God's fault. ha! Don't worry, I'm sure one day you'll find a guy that appreciates you even with all your flaws :) asc_26
:lol: :lol: :lol:
My beau will be happy to read this freza. I don't kiss frogs before meeting prince charming. Uff...beau called, he's reading. Made him laugh.
It is concise example freza and really unemotional for me as in really. In the meantime, lemme go to conference room first and finish something. See yah. freza ummm, yeah, believe the voices in your head. Next you'll be telling us that you have great grammar, as in really great grammar. Tell your frog (is that your boss?), er, I mean, your beau to compliment you, so that you don't have to do it yourself on a forum. ha! shafique
I wouldn't go by what 'peeps are saying' - unless, of course, you are referring to my comments.
Religion gives you rules on how to interact with others - so this is clearly the same as laws which limit what is allowed and not allowed. Religion says it is wrong to kill and thieve, for example.

You do sound bitter. :(
I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'ritual' - if it is the contemplation of the divine and supplications made to the creator (i.e. prayers) - then how is that harming you or anyone else?
I totally agree with you that if anyone prayers or meditates and has no benefit from doing so - then there is no point in doing so. I personally am calmed by my prayer and enjoy praying - and it gives me positive energy.
I think your comments about people cursing and not being promoted say more about you than about religion.
I wish you well though and hope you find peace.
Cheers,
Shafique asc_26
:lol: :lol: My boss? He's fired! Beau is working for another company and he's not complimenting me for this, he's just laughing, made his day as well. (I wonder why he is not busy like me today) :D
Grammar?! Out of topic duh! Freza is SOOO SMART! freza OK, let me explain this to you so that you can understand. You said that your comments were concise and "really" unemotional when they're CLEARLY aimless and quite emotional. Anyone can see this, it's that obvious. That's why I mentioned grammar; your grammar is not that great, but I wouldn't be surprised if you said that it is great, since you're in such a state of denial. Do you get this now? I'm not trying to be a smart-azz, but you really take the cake (!) as one of the most bitter and senseless people on here who just can't see their own shortcomings.
Your numerous " :D " seems like nervous laughter btw, I don't buy that this thread actually made you laugh...
Maybe next time you should have a vague idea about the subject before you contribute?
Anyway, I need to go. Shafique has given you some great advise, you should take it. asc_26
Woo hoo.... Freza is so smart and grammarian. She's good at criticising people, not just good but very good.
She's not buying what i wrote here, but she keeps on replying. I was expecting shafique to reply to my post, but this girl is replying with more criticisms targetting the poster. This is what you usually do to poster who don't share your own views. I am bitter-sweet angel. blah!
It is only me who has a vague idea about the subject. Blah! By not believing on religion is a shortcoming. Blah! Grow Up girl.
Kanelli is right. asc_26
I have no further comments shafique. I respect that you're praying for your own good and that's what religion is telling you to do. You have all the right and i am not stopping you at all.
My posts are just my views. Sorry for those who were hit by my grammar error posts.
Ciao! St.Lucifer Oops that was sporty stuff there between the girls :D Ok Shafique.. I'm just not finding enough time to get on to something that i've to explain to u. Shaf n freza.. strong believers.. i never said belief is bad. now thats not some lame excuse..but I would always say it aint that important. Every time i mention this I get replies sayin every religion says human values are imp. u should respect others.. etc etc. but then y did I ask this question? coz thats not how people think and/or are being taught.. it would be very intersting to know the ratio of those who actually know the religion well.. y would one want to differentiate one's self from the masses, y would one want to show off to the world that one is a faith follower .. y does one want the world to know that one is following a particular religion .. ? Gotttta go.. :) Freeeez freza Huh? :scratch: I NEVER said that not believing in religion is a shortcoming. I've clearly stated that following a religion is a choice and I believe in freedom to choose what you like or what you don't like. I was referring to your personality's shortcomings and your denial of them because you hit this thread in a very emotional and biased way, which exposed your personality flaws more than your views about the subject (and then you denied it!) You know, there's nothing wrong in admitting your shortcomings...
You still don't get why I brought up grammar? Wow! :shock: I was trying to make a correlation involving your self-serving but flawed statements. But geez, you're more busted-up than I thought. And you still wonder why you got the nicknames of "retard" and "dumb blonde" on DF?! :joker:
Do you see any irony in your completely childish statements followed by "Grow Up girl"? :D Of course you don't, what am I saying? Irony could hit you on the head and you still wouldn't see it.
I hope Shafique doesn't deal with the hopeless anymore, it's quite a wasted effort. I certainly don't have the inclination to reply to such any longer. 26, you look prettier playing games and writing sappy, pointless stuff. And I look prettier not saying absolutely anything.
Ignorance is supposed to be bliss, but it seems that ignorance = resentment, emotional baggage and inanity for some people... (and I'm certainly not referring to religion here, just talking about ignorance in general...) jabbajabba "Is religion such an important thing?"
It is to some - but not to me - albeit my far from being perfect as some of my posts clearly display :)
A couple of points shafique -

Buddhism (or rather the teachings of the pali text)) is far from monotheistic (unlike Judaism, Islam (Tawhīd) , Christianity).
Monotheism is belief in one supreme god - Buddha's teachings did not express opinion on the existence of a supreme god - more was said on God's (vedas) but never was reference made to the existence or non existence of a creator.

I can only speak on the Buddhist Sutras (as I have not studied anything else). But the whole point of his teaching is that it is a 'way' to discover truth as opposed to outlining the truth;
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
So I would agree it is far from complete - it leaves itself open to expansion as the individuals experience reveals more. St.Lucifer jabba.. great view. ofcourse that may b coz thats more like what I think. :D :) asc_26
Halleluliah, Mashallah! WOW! What a predictable reply.
I am not in the mood to feed you mi pescao y marisco. I just had my insulin shot (painful though). I lost the hook of the fishing rod. But don't worry, sooner or later somebody will come with more pellets to feed you my fish.
I thought you're leaving DF. If you aren't a retard, why are you wasting your time replying to post of senseless and aimless people on here? Hmm.. yummy fish, smart, eloquent, and over confident to correct grammatical error post but...with pronunciation babtize for the word baptize.
Ohh nemo, hope you are not going to dunk inside the toilet bowl before you find your place of people that make sense. shafique Jabba - good post. I will not put myself as an expert on Buddhism, but what I was saying was that the original teachings of Buddha was monotheistic, and that this later was modified over time. I draw parallels between Sufi teachings (very philosophical) in relation to 'orthodox' Islam, and the current Buddhist beliefs and the original teachings. I'll try and dig out some references. However, let me be clear that this is merely an intellectual exercise and that these issues do not (nor should they) change anyone's faith. What one chooses to believe is, in my mind, totally up to the individual and should be assessed on whether it gives them peace or not. For me, for something to give me peace - it cannot be illogical, it has to sit well with my logic and not offend my logic. This is my personal test - and it is not a test I expect everyone else to follow nor will I wish to impose anything on anyone else. Islam teaches that there is no compulsion in matters of faith - people are different and some value logic more than others, some value feelings above logic - neither are wrong, both feel what they feel and have to find their own peace. Religion teaches empathy for others, teaches sacrifice and accountability. In short it teaches morals. Because of this, I believe religion to be extremely important - because you can't legislate for these factors. Cheers, Shafique Chocoholic Hasn't this discussion gone on before? I think the question is to open. Obviously for some people religion is important, and that's fine. For others it's not important, and that's also fine. People can believe whatever they want, so long as they don't try and impose their views on others, then that's cool. Also the points about religion and God being the creations of man - some got offended by - but hey in my opinion, maybe not so far fetched, afterall you're only going on the word of others at the end of the day. But again that argument can go round and round. What would you say to many alienated tribes in far flung places, who've never heard of God or religion? Anyway, each to their own, I guess, if it works for you go with it, if not, then don't. Simple as. St.Lucifer
Chocs sorry didnt know if it was posted before..
Shafique :) I know this discussion can go on never ending. :D Lets hope more and more people, who are into distructive mode, take up light views on religion. I found your faith strong but your views very different from publics view. What we need is people to think more rational and realistic.If religion is only viewed as a personal choice and teachings of moral, and if it serves that purpose, it is all ok. But over the time, its doing the opposite.. and above everything it shouldnt teach to separate people on the basis of anything. shafique
Hey Chocs - good post.
Agree with your last sentence.
As for the question
What would you say to many alienated tribes in far flung places, who've never heard of God or religion?
Islam teaches that all people have been sent messengers - and I've cursorily investigated this vis-a-vis 'primitive' tribes of South America, African, Polynesia (sp?) and the Far East - and also australasian aborigines.
Interestingly, all cultures have a sense that there is a more powerful force which cannot be seen to which they supplicate to. The interesting point for me is that the majority of these tribes and cultures do not resort to idolatry, but pray to an unseen god. This is noticeable when you note the lack of 'temples' with idols in which people pray to - and in their folklore/cultures very few will actually pray to the elements or inanimate or animate objects - they will supplicate to a higher being.
I also find it fascinating that all the cultures also have an expectation that someone/something new will be coming bearing a message that they will have to follow. The expectation of a 'messiah' figure to come is so universal, it is hard to conceive this is a chance occurance.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
Hey, I'm enjoying this thread - livliest discussion we've had in a while (even if it has been discussed before).
Totally agree with live and let live - however I do think religion is getting a rough ride in people's minds and in the media.
You know I like my analogies - but bear with me.
I don't hear a big cry out from people saying that organised sports is a bad thing and that it is best if there weren't sports teams and fans who support them. Fans do not have to justify why they choose to follow a sports team and go through rituals of dressing up, worshipping in the stadia or in front of the tv, or following the actions of their teams. I know it sounds ridiculous - but imagine if I were to start saying because of rioting by some football fans, the killing of a policeman in Italy - the other fighting around the world, it is 'obvious' that sport does more harm than good.
My contention is that similarly, the vast majority of people who follow a religion are going about their lives peaceably and aren't fanatically calling each other names or plotting to kill people.
:)
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer
Shafique, Idol worship is something that is largely misunderstood. :) the concept is not worshipping the stine. although it may have derailed to such a state at many a place.. I consider its there in every religion in one form or the other. :)
The last messiah and the Last message.. portion of Islam that you mention could be discussed in length. I know we would never reach anywhere, and as any other big wrtten texts, religious texts are also subject to many forms of interpretation. Again just my view. No offense to anyone's belief or not to insult any scripture. shafique
I understand where you are coming from - I pray facing a 'shrine' in Mecca, but am not worshipping it.
However, the point I was making was not the pros/cons of idol worship but the startling fact (at least for me) that the 'natural' tendency for man is not to start worshipping idols. (As shown by looking at 'traditional' religions around the world and noting how many involve worshipping towards idols)

I know it's contentious - that is why I am always careful to say that 'Islam says it is the final message' - which is a factual statement. Islam teaches that the previous scriptures are of value, but have been superseded - again a factual statement (that this is a teaching of Islam).
I find that acknowledging the truth in another persons beliefs, prophets and books is a very good way to build bridges between faiths.
Cheers,
Shafique scot1870 This all goes back to people feeling the need to have something to blame/ explain what is beyond their knowledge though. The gods take many forms as well, some linked to nature, the sun, animals etc. - all they're doing is taking their frame of reference and attempting to rationalise the unexplainable. The contrast between many societies who are happy to have these Gods as a safety net in the background against the (most notably) Islamic interpretation which says you should make many sacrifices (time, possessions etc.) to satisfy the religion is where the real interest comes in. That to me shows that religion truly is a man-made thing, bound by cultures and societal norms. Indeed, the whole idea of worship is just an extension of human vanity, that they feel as if God is personified and if they had the same powers themselves then they'd expect people to kneel before them. If there is a God and he/ she/ it is all-powerful, surely we would all be in-built with how we were supposed to worship? That we rely on people to come up with stories/ parables about God to drive our actions is really quite laughable when you think about it. And when people like me come along questioning it all, it's dismissed by religions with wishy-washy statements about non-believers testing people's resolve and, even more hilariously, statements like "God moves in mysterious ways" to explain when it all goes against you. Said way back at the start of this topic, believe if you want, but again Mr. Shafique I feel you're finding logic in some of this because you want to find logic (the old leap of faith can do wondrous things) but we'll just have to agree to disagree. shafique Scot you raise interesting points. Philosophically, if God did make it obvious how and who to pray, that will remove the element of choice in religion. Your theory about religion being man-made is a valid one. So is my often quoted theory of creation - we were all created 5 minutes ago with ready made memories. Both are theories, both are equally unprovable or disprovable. We just have to use our intellect and weigh the probabilities and reach a decision. (I personally believe that there is a God, a belief that is reinforced when I look at all the evidence - but can I prove it? No more than I can prove to a child that the air is full of radio and tv waves.) I totally agree that religion is a matter of personal choice. I've said, in this thread too, that I do not have enough faith to believe that we all came into being by chance alone. Others obviously have enough faith to believe in chance - and that is totally their choice. Anyway - my post count is creeping up to the 1000 mark and I'm trying hard not to post any silly posts to get there ! :) Cheers, Shafique jabbajabba
Hi Shafique - I concur with your last point and also will always respect someone's faith.
My main point is that religion it is not an essential pre-requisite for living a moral & wholesome life. shafique
I agree with you that religion is not an essential pre-requisite for any one person. Laws are not a requisite for someone to not commit crimes and one can live a moral life without having reference to any sets of laws or fear of punishment.
However, I would argue that society needs laws to define crime and to punish and deter criminals - therefore I think laws are important to society for sociological reasons.
For spiritual matters, I similarly view religion as important.
Neither laws or religions are essential for particular people - but both are important to society, in my opinion. Which, is what the question originally posed was asking.
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer
Shafique, :)
We dont ban sports.. or football.. very very true.. nice point made.. but just look at it from a differnt angle... if you say sports is good even though there are some killings goin on.. or if u say, its just great to let it be like that.. Those freaks just love the game.. and imagine if I encourage others also to love their team n the game.. and I dont know if they would kill others because of that.. may be some of them would.. but only a few would kill and riot, coz of their passion for the team.. Thats ok I would still ask everyone to be extra passionate about their teams, even it if may take attacking others or even killing couple of people when it comes to supporting their team interest..
It doesnt happen that way.. right? people realize that its just a game,even though they are passionate abt it , end of the day its just a game.. and it shouldnt b a reason to differntiate other club supporters from them, and it shouldnt b seen as a reason to attack.. and many people realize it.
I'm sorry if my words r sharp.. that was just to get the point across.. shafique St Luc - the point I would make in return is a statistical one (I'm an actuary by profession, so I find comfort in numbers - so excuse me). The point is that if one were to do the research, the proportion of troublemakers amongst football supporters is more than the proportion of troublemakers amongst religious people. I'm talking about those who actually go out of their way and want to harm other people - there are more thugs who call themselves football supporters (who the vast majority will disown their action as nothing to do with sport) - and there are thugs who call themselves religious people (who the vast majority of religious people will disown their actions as nothing to do with religion). Of the Billion or so Muslims, how many are terrorists? Of the Billion or so Catholics - how many are terrorists (think IRA, real-IRA etc)? If we don't talk about sport being bad DESPITE a small minority harming others, why talk about Religion being bad when (I contend) an even smaller minority are causing trouble? Could it be because of media spin? Or is it xenophobia? Cheers, Shafique St.Lucifer Cool profession.. :) stats... is one good subject. But I think I didnt make myself clear there. Well, since its coming from an authority, I would agree that the football stats may b right, but I think you are only mentioning about percentages here not numbers.. coz Numbers would tell a different story. I want to make sure that we stick to the point. I never said I'm against religions, Never said it is a bad thing or thats the cause of all trouble, but I've always been questioning how important should it be. To me it shouldnt cross the limits of the biggest religion, the humanitarian religion. It is a very normal psychological aspect, that creating different types or social classes would only create more distrust and ill respect. Unless everyone is controled by a powerful ruler, problems are bound to come up. And this where the importance of keeping religion as a personal thing is so important. It shouldnt be given the prime importance, important than life, yours or anyone elses. And please update the suicidal attacks around the word, the stats would reveal that its on the raise. Whatever may the religion be teaching, some of it is going the wrong way, 1 terrorist can kill 100 and can influence another 100 to think that he was right in what he did. Now again we may always differ on who is a terrorist and who is not. Sorry for my ill knowledge on this subject, but I've seen how mass hysteria works. Some faiths have instilled such strong religious bond in people that when a religious leader evokes an issue, it is supported by almost all of the people as if in a trance. You can blame the leaders, but end of the day the roote cause remains the same. shafique I'll start with the last point first - but will use numbers instead of percentages :)

Which faiths are these? Christianity - in the hands of David Coresh etc? - Shia Ishmaelism of the fabled Hashashin? Or perhaps the Kamikazi pilots of Shinto Japan? Or perhaps the Sunni suicide bombers in Iraq and Palestine?
Hardly mass hysteria, if one looks at the numbers.
I totally agree about mass hysteria (just look at the illogical fear of bird flu, mad cow disease, immigration, Al Qaeda etc etc). All have in common emotional fear that is not backed up by any facts (and yes, numbers).

I would disagree - the numbers make the arguement even stronger in my opinion. We do not say sport is bad because of the hooliganism, vandalism etc of fans (we do say that the hooliganism etc is bad - but don't blame football).
Let's look at the numbers:
Of the 2 billion (say) religious people in the world (of all religions) - what would be your guess of the numbers who are using religion as an excuse to hurt people or do harm, instead of using religion as a positive influence on themselves and their social environment. Would you say there are more religious 'nutters' harming people or more 'simple' criminals doing harm to others (hint think which of the two groups are in prison, bombing the hell out of countries etc)?
Vaccines kill people every year. So do many medicines. However we do not ban either, unless the good doesn't outweigh the bad by a very large degree. I am applying the same test of does religion do more harm than good when answering the question posed in this thread.
Chocs has worded very well my answer - religion is important to those who value it.

If you aren't saying religion is a bad thing - but saying that there are alternatives to religion that address the sociological issues that religion encompasses (how to deal with fellow humans) - then this is a different topic. I totally agree you don't need religion to be humanitarian - but I would turn around and say that removing religion will reduce humanitarian actions around the world (but this will be my opinion, based solely on what religion followed by the majority teaches everyone how to deal with others).

My dad is a sociologist and I guess would have a field day with the above statement - but I would agree with your assessement that social classes and divisions cause problems. This is a societal issue and I'm struggling to see what this has to do with religion. As far as I can tell, no religion teaches that you cannot have rich people and poor people, servants and masters, teachers and students, leaders and followers - in all walks of life.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your quarrel is against mad cults as opposed to religious people.

Religions that teach someone should kill innocents or commit suicide are very few on the ground. Islam certainly doesn't teach this.
My definition of a terrorist is anyone who kills innocent people to achieve another aim (apart from kiling them - if the aim was just death, they would be murderers/assassins). By this definition 9/11 was a terrorist act, as was 7/7 and as are the suicide bombings in Israel. Similarly, the thousands killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by US bombs are victims of terrorism. The thousands of Palestinian children killed by Israelis - also terrorism. Those killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - victims of terrorism by this definition - and the biggest terrorist acts ever seen.
But you invite a numerical evaluation of the rise of suicide bombers - I think implicitly saying this is as a result of religion (a point I will say is wrong, as is more to do with desperation and lack of military strength - but let's leave that to one side).
Numerically, shall we say there are 5 suicide bombs a day? Lets say they kill 50 on average. Over a year that means under 2000 bombers and under 100,000 killed by suicide bombers - worldwide. Lets say that each bomber influences 1000 people - that is 2,000,000 people.
Each innocent dying is a tragedy - but as we are playing with numbers, let's look at what 100,000 deaths per annum means as a global figure.
Compare these deaths with other acts of terrorism done in the name of territory, oil or just plain old money. More or less than 100,000 pa (in the same period as the suicide attacks)? Is this religion's fault too?
We can throw statistics around and try and prove points - but at the end of the day, what I get from you is that people should be good to each other. On that point I am of the considered opinion that religion aids this goal more than it hinders it.
If you have a different opinion, then let us cordially to agree to disagree. :)
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer
I dont know much about those u've mentioned, I also 've the 2nd,3rd,4th hand knowledge of these cults, the incidents. What I know is the kind of hatred that is generated at large communal gatherings at different parts of India. Ofcourse these are my firsthand experiences. The way the common christian and islam followers get motivated and influenced by imams and speakers (seemingly, not in their true sense of someone who understands religion as u or many of us do) is sometimes shocking. sadly many of the times.. its being used to differentiate people of other religion or some are plain extremist views.
Political parties are no better, they take advantage of this, especially political parties that are tied with religions, like muslim league, like RSP, VHP etc etc
Y the difference in look, dressing, custom, living ...n everywhere...

I've friends from all the fiaths.... i'm lucky coz i was born into a somewhat equalitarian society ( or say heavy influence of communism). But I grew up in different parts of India. Over the years, people have become less comfortable with others of different faith. Different studies show that, even in uraban areas middle class people dont want his neighbour to be from a different religion. some of them felt that having a friend from a different religion is something uncommon .. hahah

How much statistics would u need to prove that, "ok .. religion kills people so are other things, like smoking, cancer.. "
:) what i'm sayin is, we could cut that one portion :D

and I would be against, making religion more important than living.
My dad is a sociologist and I guess would have a field day with the above statement - but I would agree with your assessement that social classes and divisions cause problems. This is a societal issue and I'm struggling to see what this has to do with religion. As far as I can tell, no religion teaches that you cannot have rich people and poor people, servants and masters, teachers and students, leaders and followers - in all walks of life.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your quarrel is against mad cults as opposed to religious people.
St.Lucifer
most important point. :D
Or just say.. I think you are correct. :D shafique I think you are correct. :D :lol: Cheers, Shafique Strawberries Interesting discussion but the answer is quite obvious. Religion is that important to religious people and not important to non-religious people. As for me personally, religion in the sense of different rules and regulations people live by is not important but religion in the sense of a persons faith and relationship with God is important. Why is it so important?... because I don't believe life ends in this world but that our spirits live on for ever after and what could possibly be more important than where we spend eternity? And do I believe my religion is the best?... of course I do, if I thought any other religion was better I would follow it instead. It's quite simple, it all comes down to faith... which is something that cannot be forced on people. Everyone will know the truth one day and will (or will not depending how you look at it) pay the consequences for their choices. shafique Excellent first post Strawberries, and great nickname too. Welcome. cheers, Shafique mema It’s been a while...an interesting thread.guys.. St.Lucifer
Welcome Strawberries :)
I too believe that life doesnt end here in this world. Just that I dont believe in what ever is written. or is taught... I also believe in God, we may have different views on it though.
Well this falls right on the boundary line.
"Everyone will know the truth one day and will (or will not depending how you look at it) pay the consequences for their choices."
A moderate, considerate society should have the ability to respect others and their ideologies but thinking that one is right and other is wrong doenst do a lot of good in promoting it... just my view. St.Lucifer
:lol: no no.. I said that first :D I think you are correct. :) haha Strawberries
Haha yeah I threw that one in there to see if I'd get any reactions
Thanks for the welcomes :D



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