shafique
The following extract is what I believe I should be doing - it expounds what Islam teaches us on the subject of Humility - I am sure that there are echoes of what was taught by previous prophets in the teachings, so these teachings are, in my opinion, universal:
Never unduly assert yourself with pride over others, even those who are placed under you. Never use abusive language for anyone, even though he abuses you. Be humble in spirit, kind and gentle and forgiving, sympathetic towards all and wishing them well, so that you should be accepted. There are many who pretend to be kind, gentle and forgiving but inside they are wolves; there are many on the outside they look pure, but in their hearts they are serpents. You cannot be accepted in the presence of the Lord unless you are pure, both on the outside and inside. If you are big have mercy for those who are small not contempt; if you are wise and well versed in learning serve the ignorant with words of wisdom; never desire to bring disgrace on their ignorance by trying to show-off your own learning. If you are rich, instead of treating them with self-centred disdainful pride, you should serve the poor. Beware of the paths of destruction. Fear the Lord, be righteous.
Cheers,
Shafique
freza
what's up, have you been doing some self-reflecting? :)
where is this extract from?
it's mostly nice but if it's really about humility shouldn't it focus more on acknowledging ones own limitations and being open to the thoughts of others, as opposed to having the mindset that only others can learn from us.
and I don't think people should fear the Lord.
shafique
Self reflection is part of Islam - we should do it continuously, and yes this struck a cord with me when I read it again recently.
It was actually quoted in sermon last Friday.
Given that the message is pretty universal, I thought I'd post it here. And it is timely advice that we can learn from each other - I have learnt new things from our recent discussions on the Bible vs Quran etc, misyar marriages was one new thing for me (thanks FD), as was what did take place at the Council of Nicea and the information about the compilation of the Bible.
I've noted your comment that God should not be feared, and perhaps it may make a good point of discussion in another thread. But for here, all I'll say is that Islam teaches moderation in all things and includes more carrots than sticks when it comes to religion.
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- freza wrote:
and I don't think people should fear the Lord.
agreed, i hate that term....
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
- freza wrote:
and I don't think people should fear the Lord.
agreed, i hate that term....
I thought it was a term used in all religions - for example the Bible in the NT has these verses:
Luke 12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear:
Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation
who fear him and do what is right .
2Corinthians 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves ,
obey your earthly masters with respect and
fear , and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
(I was surprised to see that slaves are told to obey masters, but I haven't read this quote in context.. but it appears to be condoning subservience in a slave - and that they should fear the slave owner like they fear Jesus)
Cheers,
Shafique
packsaddle
to the uneducated, fear and love may appear to be diametrically opposed.
however, a closer examination of the relationship between fear and love (with an objective mind, free of polluted ideas) will easily reveal a much deeper relationship shared between the two.
for example, i must endure the fear of removing the splinter from my finger to experience the love of living without pain.
it is a symbiotic relationship.
i do not fear splinters just because they are splinters.
for any human, an encounter with God will always produce an initial reaction of fear because that is the only initial reaction a human being is capable of.
for those who reject God or for those who worship false gods, the fear experienced will continue long after the initial reaction, which then becomes terror.
conversely, those who accept the one true God spoken of in the Holy Bible are capable of rising above the initial human reaction of fear to experience the perfect love spoken of throughout the Word of God.
it is not uncommon for muslim apologists, attempting to obfuscate and marginalize, to misunderstand (perhaps intentionally) the congruency between fear and love.
blessings.
shafique
Very well said packsaddle - I totally agree.
Another way I view it is to view God as a parent ('Our Father..') and as a caring, loving father His love is not diminished by our respect and fear of Him. However, your symbiotic explanation captures this essence very well.
One of the first attributes of God mentioned in the Quran is 'Rahman', followed by 'Raheem' - the Gracious and the Merciful. However, Gracious does not capture what Rahman fully means - it is the provision of things without being asked - the ultimate act of love for creation.
As I stated above, Islam has more 'carrots' than 'sticks' - and shares this trait with all other religions.
They all, in my opinion, emphasise God's love for creation and why we should be attracted to God. But hand in hand with this is a fear of going against God's wishes - as as doing something against God's wish is called 'sin' and the punishment for sin is hell, 'fear of God' is often seen as 'fire and brimstone' imagery of the Bible and popular culture.
I agree with you that this is not the interpretation of what 'fear of God' means in scripture.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Shafique
freza
when I said that I don't think that the Lord should be feared it was - my
personal thoughts on this subject. But you always need to bring up the Bible, man :roll: When are you going to bring up the Torah? You need to give the Bible a rest already. Anyway, no need to point out what is in the Bible, God is both a punisher and all loving. I go with the all loving.
Mohammad apparently never feared him or his punishment. because God liked his sins, oops, there I go again...
if you're going to go quote-happy it would be more interesting to quote from the Quran about
true humility.
Nucleus
These two verses comes to mind:
Quote:
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allāh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allāh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masākīn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salāt, and gives the Zakāt, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqūn (the pious).
Quote:
12. And indeed We bestowed upon Luqmān Al-Hikmah (wisdom and religious understanding) saying: "Give thanks to Allāh." And whoever gives thanks, he gives thanks for (the good of) his ownself. And whoever is unthankful, then verily, Allāh is All-Rich (Free of all needs), Worthy of all praise.
13. And (remember) when Luqmān said to his son when he was advising him: "O my son! Join not in worship others with Allāh. Verily joining others in worship with Allāh is a great Zūlm (wrong) indeed.[1]
14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years - give thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination.[2]
15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not; but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience. Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.
16. "O my son! If it be (anything) equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed, and though it be in a rock, or in the heavens or in the earth, Allāh will bring it forth. Verily, Allāh is Subtle (in bringing out that grain), Well-Aware (of its place).
17. "O my son! Aqim-As-Salāt (perform As-Salāt), enjoin (on people) Al-Marūf - (Islāmic Monotheism and all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allāh, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad), and bear with patience whatever befalls you. Verily, these are some of the important commandments (ordered by Allāh with no exemption).
18. "And turn not your face away from men with pride, nor walk in insolence through the earth. Verily, Allāh likes not any arrogant boaster.[3]
19. "And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice. Verily, the harshest of all voices is the braying of the asses."
shafique
- freza wrote:
when I said that I don't think that the Lord should be feared it was - my personal thoughts on this subject. But you always need to bring up the Bible, man :roll: When are you going to bring up the Torah? You need to give the Bible a rest already. Anyway, no need to point out what is in the Bible, God is both a punisher and all loving. I go with the all loving.
Mohammad apparently never feared him or his punishment. because God liked his sins, oops, there I go again...
if you're going to go quote-happy it would be more interesting to quote from the Quran about true humility.
I was showing the similarities between the Bible and the Quran when it comes to the teaching that whilst God is love, we should also fear him. I chose not to quote the many OT references to fearing God (there are more there than in the NT).
I'm sorry that this similarity caused you offence.
BTW - I'd be interested in your view on Ephesians 6.5 which appears to be instruction slaves to obey and fear their masters as they would obey Christ.
Cheers,
Shafique
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freza
Nucleus,
thanks for sharing those quotes with us. To be honest, the only reference to be humble that I personally extract from the quotes is number 18. I like number 19 too, nismo should become familiar with it. number 15 is very interesting, can you further explain it?
Shafique, you didn't cause me offense! It's hard for me to get offended. I just find some of the things you say quite annoying sometimes.
about Ephesians 6:5-9 if you read all the lines, it instructs slaves to be obedient to their masters and then the masters to do the same to the slaves - which is quite a revolutionary concept. I wonder if you noticed this odd thing.
Now if you read into the historical element you will find that slavery was a relative term at the time Ephesians was written. But even so, there is a clear larger meaning in these words - submission to Christ.
shafique
- freza wrote:
Shafique, you didn't cause me offense! It's hard for me to get offended. I just find some of the things you say quite annoying sometimes.
Good to check - I can be annoying, I know.
- freza wrote:
about Ephesians 6:5-9 if you read all the lines, it instructs slaves to be obedient to their masters and then the masters to do the same to the slaves - which is quite a revolutionary concept. I wonder if you noticed this odd thing.
Now if you read into the historical element you will find that slavery was a relative term at the time Ephesians was written. But even so, there is a clear larger meaning in these words - submission to Christ.
Cool.
Interesting to note that the Quran is sometimes criticised for saying slaves should be treated well, whereas we find that in previous scriptures slaves and servants are told to be submissive to their Masters.
I don't find it odd that Christian slave-masters are told to be kind to their slaves, but I do find it a little odd that some Christians will criticise the Quran for exactly the same point.
You will see that I started a new thread on this when I uncovered numerous verses in the NT that repeated these instructions to slaves and servants.
Christian servants should show their masters the respect they show Christ they say. Does this level of respect/humility also apply to employers, governments etc?
Cheers,
Shafique
freza
- shafique wrote:
Interesting to note that the Quran is sometimes criticised for saying slaves should be treated well, whereas we find that in previous scriptures slaves and servants are told to be submissive to their Masters.
I don't find it odd that Christian slave-masters are told to be kind to their slaves, but I do find it a little odd that some Christians will criticise the Quran for exactly the same point.
You will see that I started a new thread on this when I uncovered numerous verses in the NT that repeated these instructions to slaves and servants.
Christian servants should show their masters the respect they show Christ they say. Does this level of respect/humility also apply to employers, governments etc?
oh
my
god
lol! did you really just skip through my explanation, just like that and make your own interpretation, just like that? :D
do yourself a favor and read an interpretation of this line from a KJV, okay?
shafique
freza - if it was only Ephesians that talked about slavery (in the NT), your explanation may make some sense. However, please look at the other verses I quoted in the other thread and let me know your thoughts.
The other verses are clearly telling servants and slaves to obey the masters.
To me, the Bible is saying to slaves and servants to remain subservient and only look for rewards in the next life. I humbly ask for an explanation rather than mock surprise :)
Cheers,
Shafique