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Haditha Massacre


A64Venice U.S. orders 'values training' for troops in Iraq
Move comes amid allegations Marines killed civilians in Haditha
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military chief in Iraq Thursday ordered troops to undergo fresh training in legal, moral and ethical standards for the battlefield, in response to what the mayor of Haditha has called a "day of catastrophe."
A military source said it was evidence, including death certificates, indicating that many of the 24 civilians had been shot at close range that led to a full-scale criminal probe into the alleged massacre in March.(Watch for the new details revealed in the coroner's report -- 2:03)
CNN (Coverup News Network) skips to mention that these troops (occupiers) raided three houses and executed innocent women and children in point blank range.
What do these troops get for doing this? They attend a class on ethics.
Chocoholic For a start your poll is biased and so is your opinion. A64Venice Well, either it was deliberate or an accident. Doesn't get any simpler Choc. Chocoholic Your second choice on the poll is not exactly fair now is it? You might as well just have the one choice. At least make that fair then I might have a bit more respect for your post. A64Venice Fair enough. Make a suggestion. maineus The same thing happened in Vietnam. You send people over to kill people then they freak out when their friends get blown up and their God in their Bible repeatedly tells them to massacre every man woman and child of the infidel village what do you expect? GoodBai "What do these troops get for doing this? They attend a class on ethics"
I don't think that tells the whole story. What happens is they investigate and prosecute those responsible. And that is what they have said will happen. The accusations are appalling and have shocked America as well as causing outrage in Iraq. But no-one has suggested (apart from you) that a class in ethics will be the only response. arniegang I have altered your post Venice to give a proper balanced viewpoint and poll. Some of us have been down this road, and much has been achieved here in the last few months, in particular between many of us Forumers. I have no intention of allowing it to go back there. Yes i can do this, and i felt it was a better option than letting this go to FC, or end up being locked or deleted. A64Venice No Problem. This still works. A64Venice
BTW, What are you talking about? And if you are trying to make a point, there's no need to be ambiguous.

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arniegang There was a time when a some of us couldn't have a serious debate about certain subjects without it getting abusive and personal. Hopefully those days are gone, and things are much better here. Efforts have been made by everyone and i am sure i can speak for many in saying things are more peaceful and friendlier here. And we can discuss controversial topics here without it degenerating into a fight and abusive. Thank you for your co-operation Venice. A64Venice Thats fine, but dont get me wrong. I even said earlier in the post, replying to Choc. If you think this isn't fair, then make a suggestion. I'm not here to start a propaganda war. arniegang No problem as a relative recent poster, you wouldn't have been aware Lionheart When I posted the story of american Soliders excuting Iraqi WOman and children point blank...everybody accused me of posting propoganda and lies, but I guess what I posted 2 months ago is coming out as the truth... A64Venice Sometimes, you have to give the readers the option to decide if they think this is true or not. The best thing to do is post the facts. I guess things have a way of balancing out like this. Liban It is a giant shame what is happening in Iraq. But let me say that cover-ups are not unheard of. Militaries from all over the world cover-up their actions. Usually quite stupidly, like in this case. Nobody ever said that the US high command encourages these acts, but I beleive they are not doing enough to stop them. You can't really be surprised when the US army drafts its fighters from the ghettos on inner city America.... It is bound to happen. Sad, very sad for my poor Iraqi brothers. May they see better days soon. Liban Oh and I second Arnie in saying, lets not make this into a flame war. MS
Biased opinions come actually from CNN and similar sources of media.
Now, a bunch of soldiers enter a house and kill elderly, children and toddlers with granades and bullets. They repeat the same with 3 houses. What else do we need to see to call it a masacre.
The CNN, however, questions: "was this really a masacre"? Then, we listen to this outspoken CNN reporter talking about how much danger these soldiers face, and justifying that they just "snapped" .....yes ... snapped!!! Let's allow anybody to snap then!!!
And yes, attending a class will be pretty much it. Soldiers have been already cleared in "Ishaqi" killings, were one of the killed children was 6 months old. Acebravo
Heh, she's biased herself can't you see that?
MS
I don't know her personally, but if the only thing she can say about the Haditha massacre is that the poll and the opinion are biased, then she is biased ...big time. Chocoholic Don't you know it's rude to talk about and brand someone without letting them have their say? The whole thing is a complete tragedy of gigantic proportions! The whole invasion of Iraq was uncalled for, not that Acebravo is interested in my opinion here, he's already branded me biased without bothering to hear my opinion. I don't like CNN and I don't like FOX as they do portray one sided views on things. Of course there needs to be a total investigation to find out what happened, as the whole thing is totally unaceptable. Sadly I suspect none of us here have ever been to a war zone therefore none of us can ever imagine what it's like on either side. With regard to the comments about snapping, this is nothing new in the military. Soliders become jumpy and tigger happy, most of them are just ignorant and can't tell the difference between good and bad, become yes sir men and go nuts. American airforce pilots were given speed during the first Gulf War to heighten their senses, but it makes them indifferent to things, jumpy and trigger happy, most of the friendly fire accidents were caused by this. It's all wrong but there is a bigger picture. I'd like to see other Middle Eastern Countries getting in there and offering their help, where are these people? Where is their assistance in the situation? Nowhere to be seen because they're all pandering to Bush's every whim that's where! Now you two can put up and shut up. And I don't appreciate rude, finger pointing PM's and as MS rightly said you don't know me from Adam so who are YOU yo judge ME! Chocoholic There is no excuse for what happened in Haditha, and revenge is the worst excuse. It's a tragedy that innocents were killed, but if this story is accurate, then there were many people in that town who were also guilty of horrible things: ,2763,1553969,00.html Acebravo
It's hard for you, you have to bring up the other side as an indirect execuse for your brothers (american and brits) atrocities....
I could fill this whole forum with links about american crimes against humanity, but will only give you 2 links that ought to shut you up!
http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/90340
Killing innocent civilaisn is nothing new to the criminal americans, they have done it repeatedly in the past and are capable of doing it again, for your information, americans are the ones who taught the world how to behead enemies buy beheading Vietcong fighters...I have pictures to prove that......the brits are not too far behind their brothers the americans, they have their share of crimes against humanity....I call england the scanvenger empire! Liban It is quite disgusting what the Americas did in countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos (to name a few). The British have done similar things in India for example. I am not attacking anyone here, but it is sickening all this Haditha story. There are also other horror stories from American / British imperialist renegade actions in Iraq and Afganistan.... Chocoholic Acebravo, The fact that you're unwilling to look at others opinions just shows how ignorant and arragant you are yourself. There is no justification for what happened, I have made that perfectly clear, you're obviously incapable of seeing that. And your reaction to the article that I posted was exactly as I expected you to react that of course the people in that town are all innocent and can never have possibly done anything wrong to anyone else. Now who's biased and viewing the world through rose tinted glasses. Liban
I doubt Acebravo wears those.... HP is the only male in this forum to wear pinkish sunglasses :D :lol: Chocoholic Yeah I know Liban. But at least you're willing to listen to what I have to say and don't judge me for it and you have a much more open mind as well. It's a difficult situation, the US and UK need to get out of there. But interestingly I see Acebravo and MS haven't bothered to comment on Middle Eastern countries helping out, policing and getting involved, what's yuor take matey? Interested to hear it Liban. arniegang Acebravo, i have deleted your post where i feel you were rude and offensive and personal to another forumer. Post and be contraversial by all means, but leave out the personals please. Acebravo
Keep chasing your tail... MS
Acebravo was totally correct. We try hard to be reasonable. The only thing we find is arrogance and stupidity. There was no need to remove the post.
Choco, you say Liabn is reasonable. You should go back to posts a couple of months old when you were only swearing at him. arniegang MS With the greatest respect this has nothing to do with you so keep your nose out please. Liban and i moderate these forums, he and i are in total agreement of how we moderate. It is no one else's business, until either of us receive complaints. Stupidity and arrogance is tollerated on here, personal, rude and offensive comments are not. End of.......... MS Arniegang,
Thanks for the lesson. Here's a lesson for you.
"Your" arrogance is the reason for all this. To mention a few examples:
1) When the Haditha massacre is mentioned, the only thing Chocoholic gets to say is "the poll and the opinion are biased". Remember that these killings piss us off to the most extent. So, show some respect by condemning them the same way we condemn 9/11
2) When somebody shows his dissatisfaction with occupation of palastenian territorries, you say something like: "it's a shame you don't feel the same way about saddam occupying a neighboring arab country". You are like asking somebody who suffers from cancer to feel as unhappy about the cold he had and that healed already 10 yers ago.
3) Chocoholic can't stand any argument against western policy. Right away, she points her finger at somebody else's shortcomings.
I'll give you another example. In my posts I mentioned several times that "I admire the democracy in the west", "there is a lot we should learn from the west", "we lack the ability to lobby and proerly solve our problems".
In other words, I clearly mention what I like about western culture, and what I dislike about ourselves. I dare you to mention in your next post what you like about the Islamic culture, and what you dislike about yourselves.
In short, be balanced and show some respect to those who are offended to the most extent by American and British policy. This is what pours oil on the fire, and causes anger, and is not going to lead us anywhere. MaaaD i am not taking sides here, but i think MS presents his views in a very civilized and eloquent manner. Big up ! MS Thanks MaaaD. Same here. I was also impressed with your note on the comparison between Canadian and American governments with regards to fighting terrorism. MS I say it again. I double dare arniegang to clearly mention in his next post what he likes about the middle-eastern/Islamic culture, and what he dislikes about western culture/policy. Show that you have some respect!!! raidah first thought it came to my mind when i read the question and the answers, was that this would be immeditaly objected in a courthouse, and for a reason. ppl have this bad habbit of acting upon the first impulse. we all know that the usa likes to pose and in many ways actually is a leading power. and uses this position with many other countries, to nose into situations where they do not belong. so by no means i would side with them. or any other organisation that causes death. BUT, when u ask a question like this- do they kill civilians for pleasure- u have to think through what ur really asking, and what ur question implies. because the army is made of ppl, who obey orders. now, so that u would have a reliable answer to this question, u should remember not to take an army as if they were a single person. u would have to talk with all of them one by one and make a conclusion. but by the time u would arrive there, u would have to realise that u cannot get a reliable answer, because the question is wrong. HP
:) :) :) well said :) :) Liban
I think that it is sad that Arab governments are not doing enough to help their brothers in Iraq. I mean OK, lets say you have a problem with the American action in Iraq, fine, but we have facts on the ground now and if these governments were truely representative of the people they would help.
I would rather that Arab armies took control of the situation in Iraq to police and monitor than the Americans or British armies. Iraq is an Arab land and the best solution should probably come from Arab countries...
Thats my take Choco :D MaaaD
You surely are the next Jamal Abdel Nasser Liban
I would be honored to be seen as the next Nasser, but sadly I am not worthy of that title.
Thanks though :) MS Jamal (or like the Cairo people call him, Gamal) Abdellnasser had great intentions. He is definitely one of a kind. However, I don't think he's the one we need. If this is possible, I would make a motion for Omar Ibn Al-Khattab. Liban
Even better. Lionheart
A better and mroe neutral solution would be if a muslim peace keepers from Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal, India and Pakistan took over the peace keeping in Iraq. HP
Pakistani army is enough , you dont need the other jack countries :) !! we are already making fool to US and getting lot of money on the name of osama :) !! MS Where is arnie? HP
its quite late in Dubai and he must be dreaming and running is boat in large lake :) , so u better go and sleep ......
taa taa MS
so why are you guys up? :D
anyways, for me it's not 6 pm yet :D :D HP
I live in Islamic repulic of Denmark and the time is 23.44 PM :) . Its quite early to sleep if u are alone :cry: MS
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I do hope that, soon, you will not be alone anymore :) HP I think Radiah can come and tell me the story at bed , it can help me in getting better sleep :) !!
Just take the chill pill and dont make the debate as the matter of life or death. Just enjoy and go.
Arnie and Choco both are nice but they were born and brought up in different cultures and they see the things differently. Might be we think that situation is so simple to understand for entire world but the people who born in different cultures they see everything differently.
I am sunni muslim and i find lot of things very odd in Shia faith but if i ask from shia they will be telling me a different story .
Just see indian , they have monopolized the entire software industry but they still worship monkey.
Who was the first person on this earth? Adam (PBUM). Basically we all are cousins and relatives . We shuld create harmony , peace and affection instead of fire speeching . MS
I'm not saying that I agree with this statement, but .....WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: MS
Those who think that man evolved from monkeys might disagree with that :)
The argument, however, would still hold: all monkeys must all have an original father monkey. So, we're still cousins :lol: :lol: Chocoholic Thanks Liban and Lionheart (shocks falls over faint), but I think you're right. Having Peacekeepers from other Muslim countries would command alot more respect and certainly ease the situtation. But still I don't understand why these countries are unwilling to get involved, it's very sad. MS, with all due respect I appreciate what you're saying but even when I do agree with you, and I have on previous occassions, you still disregard my comments and always highlight the things you don't like to hear. For one why the heck do you think I'm living in Dubai and left the UK with zero intention to go back? Because it's awful and I can't stand the place!!! I loved growing up in Saudi, the place was very good to my family and I have fond memories of it, so please don't try to use the excuse I was brought up thinking differently - far from it! Also Liban and I have an understanding, when we get stuck into each other 99% of the time we're just taking the p*** it's hardly serious. Plus I'm really impressed with Liban's attitude these days, he's certainly a changed man - maybe you and Acebravo should learn from him and instead of also fanning the flames, view things objectively. No-one is questioning your anger over the situation and certainly no-one is dumbing down the situation as it was horrific and certainly you can't disagree that we don't all agree on that! I have never at any point ever supported the invasion of Iraq and was utterly appalled at Blair becoming Bush's lapdog. Our troops are put in danger for no reason than pathetic policy, they shouldn't be there, they have no right to be there and I guarantee you all my American friends think exactly the same thing. The whole thing is a disaster. I don't think Saddam's regime was better, but the excuses used to go in were fabricated. But the rest of the ME needs to stand up and show it's disagreement, but of course they won't as American policy and keeping the yanks happy means more to them, so why aren't you guys angry at that? You never mention these things, which is a shame as I'd like to hear your opinion on it. ajb Not all Western countries play along nicely with the US .... we may be a small nation here in NZ but we are nuclear free and do not allow any nuclear powered ships into our waters .... this has been a major sticking point for a free trade deal with the US for years yet we stand up to their face and keep saying no. Chocoholic Wow! What a great example. More countries should be doing this. Liban
Currently the Pakistani Army is led by Musharref who is a tool of the US, so no, not them. Liban Choco, do you speak Arabic? Chocoholic Mafi arabi habibi. I was taking lessons at one point, but I found it really hard going, I'm not very good with languages sadly, I think it's one of those things that you either have a head for or not. Plus finding the time to study is a bit hard the moment, I'd like to try and pick it up again. I have enough pressure to try and learn some Greek right now. That's a bloody hard language. MaaaD as long as you know habibi you are all set .. Liban I like Greek... They say things like: Ella rey papara pousti malaka.... :) Chocoholic My favourite is still: Stachidiamu - with the hand gesture. Liban
:lol: MS
Fair enough Chocoholic. Actually, it takes very little for me to say fair enough. I have also agreed with you previously on several issues. In fact, you don't need to agree with me on everything for me to respect you. All it takes is to understand our concerns, and to understand that we have our own interests. It is arrogance that I can't let people get away with!
Also, I don't think Liban has changed in terms of his opinions/values. Obviously, you got to know each other more, and even see each other. If people know each other more, they can be more tolerant. Politics is only a small facet of our lives - it's only the title of this forum.
At the end of the day, we are all normal people. We are good husbands/wives, we worry about our carreers and our kids' future, we enjoy taking our kids to the park or beach, and enjoy having a good time with our friends. MS
This suggests a Gulf accent :)
The Egyptians would say "mafeesh arabi ya habibi"
As you can see, habibi is universal, and, I agree, you're pretty much set by knowing it :lol: kanelli I really wish coalition troops could leave. The longer they are there, stressed 24hrs a day, the more likely it will be that soldiers snap and murder innocent people. To those of you who think that coalition soldiers enjoy killing innocent civilians - I think you too would enjoy killing innocent Iraqi civilians. You are a human being too aren't you? :roll: Liban
I never met Choco... Never even spoken to her on the phone.
As for my opinions/values, you don't know me so don't try and comment on them young man. MS
:oops:
I am surprised that you took this as something negative against you. I was speaking positively about you in light of your posts. When I say people know each other more, this could be also through the posts. In case I was politically incorrect or could cause any trouble, I only had in mind that you had a DF meeting, you commented before on somebody's dress when we talked about Islamic dress code.
In short, I wasn't assuming that you are talking to anybody on the phone, or seeing anybody in private.
And by the way, my age does not imply the attribute "young man"
Do you understand now what I meant? MS I'm still waiting for your reply, Lib ...... :x :x :x MaaaD
kanelli you need to watch jarhead. not everyone is as innocent as you are. Lionheart
I don't blame Musharaf for being tool...he just looking out for the interest of his nation. If Musharaf goes against the US he will be invaded by US or US could just arm and use India to invade Pakistan. HP Mushi is not a stupid like arab leaders , the leaders , who have destroyed their countries. He knows how to handle US and Bush . Mushi always use his brain but Arab leaders has stopped the growth of their brains by using the white cloth and rope on their head :P . If God doesnt give money to someone then he gives the wisdom and if he gives the money then he doesnt give the wisdom :) . God gave oil to arab people :P The best solution of Iraq is that Iraqi shuld accept US role in war against terror . Iraqi are so stupid that they kill their own people. :cry: PS" China 1 France 1 " MS I agree that Musharaf is trying to play a game. Given the extra-ordinary pressure that is excercised on his shoulders, the game is very difficult, however. So he has to strike the impossible balance between staying in power, avoiding the anger of his people, and avoiding the anger of the US. The secret solution to this would be democracy. If governments come and go, nobody could pressure on a country too hard. The strange thing, however, I have heard that typical elected leaders in Pakistan are more corrupt than leaders coming on top of the tanks. HP, correct me if this is wrong. Lionheart HP "If God doesnt give money to someone then he gives the wisdom and if he gives the money then he doesnt give the wisdom . God gave oil to arab people " Why is verything about money with you? ... Oil has never benefited those whose land posses the Oil, this includes Mid East and South America...but rather Oil has benefited view people who have used it to oppress their people, destroy the earth that doesn't belong to them and enrich other countries rather than their people. Oil has brought nothing but destruction to Mid East and Africa(Nigeria,and Angola)... Liban
Am I supposed to be logged on 24 hours a day just to respond to you within minutes of a question being sent to me?
In any event, I do not appreciate your angry face but I will say this, I appreciate your last post and the comments in made. Thank you. Liban HP you just love to stir the pot with your mildly insulting yet definatly childish and baseless comments. kanelli
I don't generally look to American Hollywood movies to base my view on life and events. :) Hey, you train men to be killers and then they kill - what a surprise! What I think is really shitty is that so many are quick to condemn American soldiers as being bloodthirsty, like no soldier anywhere else in the world kills people. The US is no angel, but some of you here like to demonise it beyond all logic and reason. Liban
The American regime keeps saying that it is fighting a just war, a moral war, a righteous war, a war of good (them) vs. evil (those not with them)....
This is the reason why the US is demonized. Its hypocrisy.
All empires fall.... I feel bad for ordinary Americans when they hegemonic empire will crumble... They have too many people who don't like them because the US is the nation to have created the most wars (direct and indirect) and meddled in the affairs of nealy all countries (even friends like Canada), the list is endless... :( kanelli Liban, even if I agree with what you said - the US will reap what is sows - it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that soldiers from all countries are trained to kill and do kill. It is false to say that US soldiers are more barbaric than other soldiers of different nationalities. That was my point. Liban I agree, they are not more barbaric at all.... Soldiers are trained killing machines. Even the Swiss Guard (Vatican soldiers) will rip off your head in a split second if you cross them!!! :shock: Chocoholic Here's a point, if soliders are such bloody thirtst guys and hungry for ward, then how come it's been report that upto 1,000 British troops have deserted and run away? Plus although it's no justification as I've said time and time before, many of the US troops are young recruits who have been forced into the army from poor areas who don't don't any different and are ignorant to the situation.



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