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Dubai Expat Forum - Philosophy and Religion Forums

God's existence?


Skyper A lot of people do believe in God. Then there are those who does not believe in God. They call themselves atheists. Those who believe, can you prove that God really exists? For atheist, can you prove that God does not exists?
naruto yes i can prove that god exist.. look around you and you will know that god exist. Captain Australia
I've looked around me and if God does exist then he is a cruel b*stard. So many suffering and dying for no reason. Is it all a sick joke to him? rudeboy skyper just place your hand on your heart and hear its beat. i think that should be enough to wonder whether there is a god or not. rudeboy
all this suffering and all the ppl you see around you dying for no reason, is because of us humans. Captain Australia
What is the point of God then? He can't intervene, he can't stop the suffering, why should we care about him? Why not just forget about God and forge a system of beliefs based on mutual respect and compassion?
People cause the suffering, people cause the good, people can build our world, people can destroy our world. It's just people here. There is no God.
You feel better because you think there is a God looking after you. Good for you. Children feel better when they think Santa Clause is bringing them presents, it doesn't make it true. The world will be a better place when we all forget about this mythical 'God' and start taking responsibility for our actions. I know what is right and wrong, I don't need some thousand year old story to tell me. TheChoosen The church (on matter which religion) is the best marketing company the world ever seen since more than 2000 years They are selling a product no one has seen and dealing with ppls mind rudeboy
God doesnt want to intervene because all of this is a test. He gave us the World to live on together. Instead we are doing the opposite and destroying the world. If He wanted to He can stop all this but i think He wants us lazy humans to move our asses around :D.
There is already a system in place called the UN :D
God created us Humans to make the world a wonderful place or we could destroy it. its up to you and me not him ;)
God is not looking after me, He is looking after everyone :D. plus i think He is only there when you need him the most.
You are right we should take responsiblity for our actions but what has god got to do with that :S. what is happening in Palestine is because of us humans. what is happening with the o-zone is happening because of us. what has god got to do? Chocoholic What a load of boohockey! I'm with CA on this one. rudeboy
us humans are always good at blaming each other or if you cant find anyone, we just go oh we might as well blame it on god :D
chocs you believe in "black magic" yet you do not believe in God lol and you find all this a boohockey.

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Chocoholic Why does all magic have to be 'black', evil, dark etc. No,no, most magix are to do with earthly energies. There are 'beings' supernatural or otherwise, ghosts etc. But I don't think people should live their lives putting all their trust, faith etc in one ultimate all encompassing being - to me that's just crazy talk. rudeboy
chocos islam tells us to trust god (allah) with our hearts. some misunderstand islam, thinking that trusting Allah means fatalistic lazy dependence! This is not the real meaning of trust in Allah. When I ask you to put your absolute trust in Allah, I mean that you do whatever is possible, you make use of all the available means, then you put your trust in Allah. Trusting in Allah is a worship done by the heart; it has nothing to do with your other organs. You should use all your other organs to achieve your dreams and fulfil your needs but at the same time your heart should put trust in Allah.
If you trust him with your heart you will be rewarded. Certain doors will be closed but He will open many more. As long as you trust him with your heart. If you dont then you wont get any rewards. And I think this is the same for any other religion.
One encompassing being is so powerful that the Ghosts you believe in are part of Him ;) Chocoholic er no I don't think so! I don't like any religions, sorry to put it bluntly, but I think it's a waste of time and they cause half the problems in the world today. I think it's all a human invention to instill control on people. I'll stick to not believing. But each to their own, if others find it necessary then that's their business. gamercowboy The OP's questions are loaded. It's not correct to ask believers to prove the existence of their god(s) since they rely on faith-- belief even in the absence of proof. Conversely, it's not up to non-believers to prove the non-existence of deities that the believers believe in. The burden of proof is not on them. That being said, I don't think religions were invented as a way to control the masses. They may have evolved into that during certain periods of human history but their most likely beginnings were spurned by early man's inability to understand the forces of nature. Many phenomena and "miracles" of yesterday are now clearly understood and explained through science. rudeboy
science? science is something what us humans came up with. the question is who gave us the brain to come up with things such as science? can you show me a scientific formulation for the creation of the brain :P gamercowboy
Actually, science is not something that humans "came up with". Just as mathematics is not something that humans "came up with". It just is. These are universal truths that exist whether or not we humans ever existed. Therefore your first question, "who gave us the brain to come up with things such as science?" is invalid.
As for your second question, feel free to peruse any medical resources (including the ever useful Wikipedia) regarding this wonderful organ. Nucleus Btw, in Islam God rarely intervenes in this world, at least not in the way some people demand. Regarding, suffering and hardships, I read similar discussion in another forum, I'll quote here:
kanelli If there is a god, he lets far too many horrible things happen in this world. If he is all-powerful, then this world should be under his control and everyone should be following his lead. He would be communicating with his creations every day and there would be no confusion about his wishes. The world is not like this, everyone is divided by different beliefs, and people are abusing the earth, its creatures and each other. This is why there must be no god. I suppose there is a possibility that there was a god who created everything and then left, but that is as far as I could believe in the existence of any god. Nucleus
If God wants to intervene and judge in this world then what is the point of after life and day of judgment? This life has freewill which has its dark side too.
kanelli Why the need to judge, why can't his creations live well on earth and in the afterlife? Nucleus
On one side you say lot of horrible things happen on the other why need to judge. It is obvious when there is freewill and capacity to do both good and bad then there will be judgment, reward, and punishment. rudeboy
kanelli god made this world for us humans. he made all of us. all these horrible things you see happening around this world is not because of god but because of us Humans. If he wanted to intervene am sure he would. but you can say it is a test for humans to see how strong they are and during hardship what exactly do they do. he is testing us to see whether we can ride this storm out ourselfs or we choose to go the wrong way and follow the devil or whether ppl in this hardtime remember him and keep his belief in him. Thats what Islam is about, believing in God with your heart. if your heart is strong you will get through all of this.
earth is just a test. what matters is the judgement day. kanelli So, we are toys for his amusement - "Hey, look what I created, let's see what they do to each other. I'll reward the good ones and punish the bad ones after they die." That doesn't sound particularly ethical. Why would a god create so many other religions, just to divide people and keep people guessing. Have one clear religious path for the world to follow would still be enough of a challenge for humans, and provide god with his chance to judge at the end. rudeboy
i have to agree that there are so many religions and why doesnt god just make one religion. i guess he wants us humans to experiment and see what happens :D. y do you think ppl change religions? Chocoholic Nope I agree with Kanelli on this one. So humans and all the creatures on the earth, the earth itself are just puppets and toys to be played with? 'Oh dear, look they destroyed the earth, never mind I'll make a new one!' Sorry, not buying it. People have to take responsibility for their actions and live life! There maybe no afterlife, what are you going to do then? When it all goes black and there's nothing? Nada! Nowt! What a waste! You just spent your whole life, wasting time, bowing to the demands of some man-made nonsense. Captain Australia
I hate this kind of attitude. Billions of people wasting their lives around the world because they believe that by living under a set of laws created 'by God' (read: holy men making stuff up over thousands of years) they will get rewards when they die.
What about a reward now? The reward of living a fulfilling life.
Looking forward to death means neglecting today.
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As for the many religions around the world, if there is a 'one true God' then he is being very unfair. Say you grow up in a village in Papua New Guinea and you follow the religion that your parents did (worshiping the snake gods?) and you live a good life being kind to those around you and you don't hurt anyone and then you die one day.... Guess what? Sorry, but you had the wrong religion. You're going to burn in hell because you didn't know about Jesus or the Prophet Mohammed or whoever. Too bad.
And if someone says that because the poor villager lived a good life they get to go to heaven... then you prove that there is no point following religion because you can ignore it completely, live a good life and get in to heaven anyway. Perfect. That's what I do anyway. :-) rudeboy
you will get rewards based on your performance in your test. EVERYONE knows that :D come on. i would say good luck to the guys who worship snakes. they worship snakes yet they dont worship god hmmm a bit strange. you believe in snakes yet you dont believe in the god who made the snakes :S lol lots of confused ppl here. kanelli I try to live a good life and I am not afraid of death. I don't need an incentive like fire and brimstone vs clouds and angels to get me to behave on earth. rudeboy
ahan Nucleus
your life is like a life of a toy? You don't value your life? And good ones should be rewarded same as bad ones?
As for too many religions that is property of freewill and free choice, people will have differences and some choices will be bad and some choices will be good, and they will have their consequences, there is no such thing as free meal :)

And it is not like that :lol:

It is nice, but not really relevant as far judgment and punishment is concerned; just as whether you don't do crime for fear of criminal punishment or not, but laws, judgment, and punishment are there. Captain Australia
What about my example, about a person living in a small village that has had no contact whatsoever with Islam (for example). There is no choice. Will they still be judged for not following the laws of Islam? Nucleus
According to Islamic scholars nope, but imo they will be judged on a different criteria. Captain Australia What will they be judge on IYO? syndicated_mind
Nothing to prove because it is non existent. rudeboy i do believe in god. its not because I was born in a muslim house or my parents were muslims, its because of the quran. after reading the quran and understanding it, so many things opened my eyes. many ppl think that the quran is written by some guy. this is wrong. quran contains all the information which humans need to know. even about the existence of god. not that many ppl know this but in the Quran the whole human anatomy is described. ask yourself how can a book written hundreds of years ago contains information about human anatomy, when it has taken the scientists recently to find out more about the human anatomy? If a human wrote the quran how could a human being know all this information 100s of years ago? the answer is that no human knew about human anatomy 100s of years ago. only a greater power would have this knowledge and information. or maybe the creator of us human beings. rudeboy by the way guys. la ilaha means no god. so those who are athiest, I want to congratulate you all. ;) RobbyG
Thanks for the appreciation ;)
In what context must this be placed? I don't understand what you try to say. rudeboy
do some research cos i dont want to spoil the fun ;) RobbyG
Ahh you little bugger. Show some balls will you.
If you make a statement, you must defend it also. Bring it on son. Did Allah become Atheist all of a sudden?
There you go :lol: :wink: desertdudeshj La ila ha illa Allah. There is no god but Allah. Half of what you could say is the creed of Islam rest being and muhammad is his messenger. Since you don't believe in any "god" most of you already agree to part of it. desertdudeshj
Says the person who believes in ghost, ghouls and goblins ! rudeboy
party pooper :( yellowbelle Thanks a lot.. Nucleus You can read Quran translation. For any further help and Questions you can go to / That is a good forum on subjects of Islam. yellowbelle I am so intrigued of what is in Quran. I am a Roman Catholic yet dont put walls to anybody cause of religion. May I know if there's any way I can read Quran in English? I really wanted to go deep with it. Your holy book somehow shares the same context as ours. As I watched THE ARRIVALS, the teachings of Quran inspire me a lot as carried out through the theme of the film. I hope you can shed some light on me with this matter. Hear yah soon! rocky1 IN THIS ENLIGHTENED AGE PEOPLE NOW HAVE LOTS OF DOUBT BUT STILL MASSES BELIEVE IN A SUPERNATURAL POWER MOSTLY BECAUSE OF THEIR CHILDHOOD UPBRINGING AND ACCORDING TO THEIR RELIGIOUS EDUCATION. THAT'S WHY WE SEE MOST OF THE PEOPLE DONT FALLOW DIRECTIVES GIVEN BY RELIGION OR RESTRICTIONS , BUT STILL THEY PREACH RELIGION. IF GOD'S EXISTENCE IS NOT YET PROVEN BY LOGIC BUT THEN ITS NOT BEEN DISAPPROVED. TO FALLOW BLINDLY ONCE FAITH CUD BE VERY DANGEROUS SAME TIME THERE CUD BE BAD RESULT FOR THIS PREMATURE SOCITY IF IT IGNORE THE IMPORTANCE OF RELIGION . keyquest The consequence of sin is death and pain. For those you choose to accept Jesus' blood sacrifice will be given forgiveness of their sins and be given eternal life where there is no more death or pain. The choice is ours. This life is just a decision period. Will you accept Christ? trentfx i personally believe in god, but not in any form i think god is just some kinda blurry thing bushra21 I don't think anyone can or should have to prove beyond reasonable doubt the existence of God or lack there-of. Those who believe in God will turn to their holy scripture as a means of explaining the various creations and happenings of the world, while those who do not will usually turn to science, or some sort of spiritual source for those who follow another path. It all boils down to what you believe to be true in relation to how you perceive the world, there are no hard facts that can prove either stance - at least, not yet. IMHO: The world is a messed up place, not because God (I believe in God so the rest of my post will be a reflection on my beliefs not facts) wanted it to be so, but because of how we as imperfect humans have caused it to be. Our imperfection has both good and bad consequences on ourselves and how we make the world to be. While it strives us to improve and better ourselves it also causes us to be 'weak' (for lack of a better word) and make choices that someone who has achieved perfection would know better than to make. So why hasn't God stopped all the craziness that's been going around and make the world free of sickness, war, poverty, famine and make it a better, problem-free existence? Well (and again, this is only my opinion) I don't really think we need to God to do anything to stop these things from occurring. By witnessing these things I have been able to have a better appreciation for my life and the things I have personally been through. Which, in turn, has caused me to want to help those who are less fortunate than I am. We don't go to war because 'God tells us to', we go to war because certain individuals choose to do so of their own free will. God doesn't want people to be homeless or dieing of malnourishment, people are the ones responsible for this. If we were perfect, and the world around us perfect as well, how could we expect to be able to cherish those special moments, be grateful for what is given to us, have a desire to succeed or better ourselves/world, or even know right from wrong. If the world was perfect no one die, no one would starve, no one would be homeless, no one would suffer, feel anguish, make mistakes - there would be no need for laws or certain jobs/businesses ... it would be a fairy tale life. I don't blame religion or God for what is going on - I blame the people who have abused their rights and privileges of the position that they hold, whether it be political, educational, religious, spiritual, parental and so on. I know this doesn't really explain why I believe in God but, I just wanted to comment on previous posts asking why or how we can believe in God if the above mentioned things are allowed to happen. In the end what matters most is how we lived our lives, the type of person we were, and what we did with the opportunities and obstacles we have faced. RobbyG
I like the marked section. People think to much in boxes. There is more out there so we should all speak in one voice instead of battling eachother because of our differences.
I wonder how we ever going to communicate to an alien society when even our human race is unable to agree on matters and speak in one voice.
We have a lot to learn on this planet. Bunch of ignorants, thats what we are (relatively speaking of course). ;) Misery Called Life So Robby as an atheist how do you attain spiritual enlightenment? I listen to music. Serious! But think it's time for me to read about Buddhism. I kinda like the concept. Not sure if I'll follow it though. Need to study it first. Nicholson
Well, I think God handed us humans the right tools, now it's up to us to use them in the right way. Andyba Hm.. I always loved these discussions about God's existence. :) So what do we have till now: 1. The world is a mess, mostly because of the humans, and there is no sign of God to clean it up. 2. There are multiple religions that do not allow us to see an integral God, with an integral purpose and goal.. 3. It is impossible to prove that there is no God at all... simply because we don't know everything there is, to say that something is missing :) 4. And the unbeatable fact: There is a pink elephant on the dark side of the moon. Actually I try to separate the God from all the religions. When I see how many religions including Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have so many interpretations and how new religions appear and disappear the only conclusion I can draw is that humans are very imaginative. And if we are inventing new religions today when many complex natural phenomenas are explained by science, what should we think of our ancestors thinking that we are in the center of the Universe... and that sun is rotating around earth. :) dee7o Many people in this topic are saying that they are perfectly happy leading good lives on earth and don't need an "incentive" of heaven or fear of hell for that. I agree. An atheist or an agnostic can be a wonderful person. In other words he/she can be morally sound or ethically sound. The problem is that you can't really uphold ethics without giving some credit to religion. I am not saying you have to believe in god, but you must give religion as a concept it's dues. The ethics that atheists believe that they have can only have come from 3 places (by my estimation). 1- Man has a natural inclination towards good and a natural revulsion towards evil. The problem with this solution is that it implies that man is not purely mechanical and that emotions are not simply a product of hormones/neurotransmitters. So it implies that man has a soul which must have been "created" which in turn implies that god exists. So........ 2- God does not exist but man has invented systems of morality over the years that with the progression of civilization have now become our ethical code. Unfortunately, the only such recorded systems are Religion. So whether or not religion as a concept is true or false, this explanation states that our modern concepts of ethics and morality are derived from religion. 3- God does not exist and religion has no role in forging sound ethical systems. Ethics in fact are a result of evolution and natural selection. Human beings have a natural revulsion to evil and a natural liking to good deeds because over the centuries a good moral system has proved to be a favorable trait for survival. Better survival means greater chance of passing on your genetic code and so natural selection is what caused these traits of morality to pass down through generations upon generations in offspring's genetic code. There are two problems with this theory. 1- The most successful people in the world are the most corrupt, so I really doubt it if a good moral code is a favorable trait for survival, especially in pre-law societies. 2- This explanation should imply that we are gradually becoming better and better people. Umm....look around you and tell me where is the improvement exactly??? So, it's not cool to knock religion and just say it causes problems and all religions should be abolished. My 2 cents :D dee7o
Mmm...dude, the sun does rotate around the earth. I'm serious, it does. snake God's existence probability is 50% period. dee7o
Huh? Andyba
Yeah and the earth is carried by giant elephants that are on a back of giant flying Turtle. :)
I know that.. but hush... it's a big secret nowadays.


It depends what you consider success. If loads of money and power - then may be but I still do not agree with this. There are many really rich people that are not corrupt. And if some are you don't know really if they were corrupt before they become rich. Power corrupts as you know. :)
For example i consider Newton and Einstein successful people because they succeed in what they were doing.

There is less slavery and less suffering then a couple of hundreds years ago. Plus many people are doing harm without realizing it because of ignorance and not because they want to do it. Many are doing bad things when they try to do good things - that is because of lack of knowledge on how to achieve the same good results in a more positive manner.
Unfortunately in the current society as it is people do not need much for survival.. these including ethics.
Actually there is a theory that morality exists as long as conscience exists.
dee7o
I was serious, the sun does rotate around the earth! It's a common misconception that it doesn't. We just neglect to think about it because the sun's orbit is huge and so it takes an insane amount of time to complete it's cycle. In other words, its movement is not really relevant to human beings. Sorry but had to get that out of my system.
Anyway, so you believe that ethics is an evolutionary trait? Your argument that people do wrong although they are well intentioned and that this is due to ignorance does not really hold. First of all, people are not more ignorant now than they were before. You just feel it because now everyone has access to publicizing his opinion. So idiots are roaming wild. But it does not have a role in good and bad. Also there is less slavery and suffering not because people are becoming better. That is due to the progression of law. You cannot compare lawless or legally primitive societies to modern ones. However, just because the concept of what is "accepted" and what isn't has changed, that does not mean ethics has evolved. Corruption is relative to the society you can exercise it in. For all our current laws and restraints, I feel corruption is increasing not decreasing.
Also, when I was talking about success, I meant success as SURVIVAL. Otherwise, the whole evolutionary argument goes out the window. Natural Selection cannot efficiently pass on immaterial traits like self actualization and contentedness. The Self Actualization of scientists like Newton is at the very top of Maslow's hierarchy, maybe it has a small survival benefit, but is definitely insignificant compared to money. For a trait to be passed on it needs to be a strong survival tool because genetics are only passed on through reproduction which requires long life spans. For longer life, you need material things. In other words, money. Money gives you a higher probability of being healthy a higher probability of finding shelter and a higher probability of finding a mate. So success for the case of this discussion cannot be Newton or Einstein. It has to be Buffet.



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