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Freedom of Speech


Liban I'll keep this short.
and
COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland
Now
Cartoons against Islam...
Do these governments (plus the EU as a whole) make it illegal to insult the Prophet? No.
Do western government censure poeple that defame the Prophet? No.
Do these governments ban such cartoons? No...
The Message
West can make fun of the Prophet, the most pure of men, the most honorable of men, the most special man. But God forbid we try to deny the holocaust....
Thankyou for your clear message oh Western Governments. We now understand how deep the Zionists have influenced you. You must be very gullable....
GAB It is illogical and highly unintelligent to try and equate the two, especially coming from somebody as educated as yourself. Insults versus genocide.There is no analogy. Liban So what you say is that a human tragedy is worse than defaming the God's chosen one.... Humans are more important than God....???? I see.... God is First.... Then His Messangers.... Everything else is terciary.... Stupid Zionist influence... Did you know that more Poles, Ruskis, homos, gypsies than Jews.... But we equate the holocaust with those people. The West simply doesn't grasp anything other than whats in front of them. GAB You've lost your ability to read and you are making vast leaps in a non-intelligible way. Read carefully what I wrote. There is no analogy- this means that there is no comparison to be made. I would not, nor would anybody with an ounce of intelligence try to make comparisons. Sometimes you exhibit humour, sometimes you exhibit intelligence and at the moment you are speaking with anger and passion and making assumptions about what I wrote. My opinion on either incident or event is not stated. I did not state that one is worse than the other. They should not be compared. I will reiterate it for you if you wish but I am sure you possess the ability to re-read on your own.
You are also exhibiting ignorance-you never fail to imply that someone with a perceived counter view must be Western- BTW can I have your definition of such, now that would be interesting. Liban Zionists.... :pukeright:
You want my definistion of what I mean by western ?[/i] GAB Name calling really doesn't become you. :wink:

Actually I don't care what your definition is-the fact that you bandy it around as an insult is really quite amusing and is a clear indication of your stance on issues like racism and bigotry. Contrary to your beliefs one would think. yshimy GaB, As yuo are playing the wise guy, why don't you enlight us and unfold the blind that you assume is on our eyes. BTW i don't agree with liban in many points, but the main stream thinking of Taboo of Holocaust (which in my personal opinion not proved fact as people still arguing) while everything else is considered as "Freedom of speach" i do agree with him on the double standard, intolerance of the EU countries and the USA. Now, Enlight us and unfold our blinds please. GAB Boiling people in the name of science and using tanned human skin for lampshades and for binding books.....yshimy GAFL!! and get a clue!! :roll: Next you'll be telling me agent orange deformities are a myth. :roll: Please enlighten me with your theories (this is sarcasm-don't even bother replying it is a rhetorical question.) If I can reiterate for you-there should be no comparison. You agree with Liban that one incident is more heinous than the other. You explain to me how? Liban And so people say.... I know it is exagerated.... Besides other groups suffered in greater numbers than the Jews.... Also GAB, you asked for my definition of western.... Did you forget? The fifth post before this one. Liban
Defaming God and His Chosen One is a far worse crime than anything else....
Personally what happened 60 years ago was unfortunate but that was 60 years ago!!!!! , time to get over it.... Because beleive me the vast majority of the world DOESN'T CARE anymore!!!!

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GAB WTF? yshimy My single point is....
IF it is "Freedom of Speach", so for EVERYTHING,
[color=red]NOT[/color] everything but holocaust
Side note: This guy is a historian, so that is his work, what about a cartoonist who knows nothing about our religion!!!!!
The first go to trial and sentanced, the second still free, may be laughing now with friends and making a fuss how he changed the world and caused all this hassel and arguments, and being considered by other "stupid" journalists in europe as the Hero and use his "stupid act" to rally for "Freedom of speech" by posting ignorant cartoons.
Remind me what they did when the Zionists pressured for a law to Shut the fu(k out of them when they speak about Holocaust....... They kept their mouth shut or they will loose their jobs as Zionists controlls their media and though their jobs.........!!!
Ture Heros.
Now dare to speak about freedom of speech. GAB :roll: Not that I can actually understand anything you've written but you are barking up the wrong tree. Fact is read what I actually wrote not what you think I wrote. I actually think freedom of speech is great but agree there should be limitations. You'd think any logical, intelligent person would see that there are ethical and moral limits, but apparently not. I agree some things are "out of bounds" so to speak for those reasons. It shows a lack of compassion and empathy to print some things just for the sake of sensationalism, free publicity and just to "see how far we can go". BTW if you read my opinion in other posts you'll see I do NOT condone the act of printing the cartoons. An example would be a sportsman who recently was photographed as Jesus with a crown of thorns. What do you think of that? Liban
I think that is a horrible thing to do and I hope the sportsman repents for what he did and ask forgiveness of God...
So whats your point? kanelli I think that it is ridiculous to throw people in jail for expressing views on the holocaust. We have historical records that clearly show that the holocaust happened. If we want free speech for the important matters, we need to put up with the bad that comes along with it. Besides, misleading information and outright lies can be handled with solid information and education campaigns - no need to throw people in jail. Inciting hatred and calling people to violence is another matter, but David Irving hasn't been charged with that. yshimy No Comment about the sports man as jesus, as i saw in american movies depication or whatever it is called of jesus in many things, poistions, acts and even people swear and curse his name. for me, i don't think of jesus as the person being showed in media nowadays nor the photos, i belive in him, like i belive in Muhammed PBUH as an absolute person, no face no body, just a person i love and prophet of god. GAB, I think we agree on the concept of limitation of freedom. Thank you Chocoholic You also have to remember that David Irving made the comments based on his current knowledge at the time. But he changed his view when he gained new knowledge and new evidence which proved to him that the event did inded happen. That's what history is about, theories and ideas based on evidence available at the time, until new evidence proves or disproves one way or the other. Now the Holocaust happened there's no denying that and the coutries that have these laws in place are the ones that were mainly affected by it, or its citizens. The situation is not really comparable to the cartoons, as laws governing that only apply to Islmaic states, not everyone is Muslim or believes in Islam, so a lot of people just consider it a lot of fuss over nothing. You cannot compare the killing of millions to a cartoon scribbling - that's just daft. Liban tsk tsk tsk.... Millions.... Who says millions? The Jews and the victors.... Whatever... Anyways, the point here is that Islam is more important than HUMANITY... So billions can die today but the greater injustice lies with blasphemising Islam. Those of no faith and thus no future after they croak, will never understand that... Well strike that, once they croak off, they will learn the truth and then its too late. Chocoholic That's where you're wrong. Nothing is more important than humanity and being kind to one another and treating other people as you would like to be treated. Religions will come and go, and our future generations will look back and hang their heads in shame at the stupidity or people fighting and killing one another, and for what? For the promise of what might be? Purlease, do me a favour! People should live their lives well and treat their one chance as a little bit of heaven, instead of looking and worrying about what might or might not be after they're gone. And Liban, also worth noting, that the people who've reacted with violence and hatred over the cartoons, have only managed to kill one another - how pathetic is that? Plus while the boycotts are affecting Arla products, it's also jepordising the livelyhoods of over 1000 Muslims in the region, so again well done for thinking of the consequences of rash actions. And are the people who sanctioned such actions going to be willing to put their hand in their own pocket to compensate them? I seriously doubt it!
yshimy Chocho,
You still Can't get the point and can't blame you as i can see from your post you are not a beliver of even the concept of after life and though the concept of God, even if you claim you are a beliver, you have doubts (check your upper post)


I'm Struck. in islam it is one religion since Adam till now. but still even people might divide them into 3, 2, or 1, be open minded and say only 3 religions exists the rest are just..... not holly, (to be poliete).

Thats your opinion, it is a matter of opinion as if it is a fact, there would be no law against denying it... "protecting the myth"
Welll the rest of your post addressing liban doesn't make any sense so i'll not comment...... Chocoholic Well as far as I was aware Islam is not since Adam, again all myth! Christianity is a far older. And how can you say other religions are not Holy? They all basically teach the same things and worship the same God, so what's yer beef? Just because they have different names doesn't mean they aren't justifiable. Anyone who says the Holocaust is amyth is totally blind, and it's shameful that people would deny such suffering and horrific things. Shame on you. yshimy Islam based on Worshiping of the one and only God with no companion (please correct my translation if not right). Adam, Ibrahiem, Moses, Jesus and Muhamed, all belived in it and muslim prophets according to our islamic teachings. "wa kad samakom al muslimon men kabl" "and he called you the muslims from before" Hope i'm not confusing anyone, but i know it is hard for non muslims to understand. please if someone can clarify better, just do it please. We belive in Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, Torah, Bible and Quran. I think you can't understand the whole logic except after long discussion on our belif's. seriously, i don't think choco would be interested. or might be for the sake of figuring where the wrongs are, and she will not find ;) our religions is perfect. arniegang Choc Give up or you may as well just bang you head against the wall sobani Salaam, Recently I came across one Article from leading Magzine In INdia abt Current Controversy. And I would like to heve ur opnion abt it. Cartoon Crisis Hard Questions The Chinese word for "crisis" is brilliant: It combines two characters: danger and opportunity. The crisis over the Danish cartoons on Islam presents many dangers, but also offers some opportunities to address hard questions head on. KISHORE MAHBUBANI SINGAPORE The Chinese word for "crisis" is brilliant: It combines two characters: danger and opportunity. The crisis over the Danish cartoons on Islam presents many dangers, but also offers some opportunities. The first opportunity the crisis provides is to educate us on how much the world has changed. Before this crisis, the 5.4 million Danes could retain the illusion that they sailed on a different boat from the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims. Now they, like most Europeans, are aware that those Muslims share the same boat. None of us would board a boat and deliberately rile a large group of fellow passengers. If one group rocks the boat, we would all sink together. The Danish cartoon crisis has demonstrated that the 5.4 million Danes, and 400 million fellow EU citizens, share a common political and emotional space with 1.2 billion Muslims. These Muslims are experiencing a deep existential angst, an angst aggravated by the Danish cartoons. Their anger can rock our boat. The widespread riots and loss of life that followed should now spur us to understand the deep roots of this anger. The Danes are familiar with the proverbial expression of the straw that broke the camel’s back. The cartoons, perhaps only a straw, reinforce the deep sense of injustice that many Muslims feel. Muslims are convinced that the world, especially the West, shows no moral concern over their plight. The loss of innocent Muslim lives, whether in Iraq and Palestine, Afghanistan or Pakistan, does not stir the world. Nor has the West shown any real interest in supporting the development of Muslim societies. In short, the cartoons hurt the Muslims badly because they add real insult to real injuries. The second opportunity this crisis provides is for the 1.2 billion Muslims to engage in some deep reflection. If they were strong and powerful, no small European country could afford to anger and alienate them. The ability of a Danish newspaper to publish the cartoons and the subsequent decision of several European papers to republish them demonstrated the weakness of the Muslim world. The Europeans knew that Muslims could not retaliate and hurt Europe. Hence, Muslim sensitivities could be ignored. Mass demonstrations, including assaults on the Danish embassies in Damascus and Beirut, are not an expression of strength. As Tariq Ramadan said, "The Muslim reaction is far too excessive and not the way forward." The Muslim world has neither hard power nor soft power and lags behind Europe in social and educational indices. As such, the Muslim world needs to understand why it has become so weak relative to Europe. A thousand years ago, when the Muslim caliphates were shining brightly, while preserving the rich fruits of Greek and Roman civilizations, Europe was emerging from the Dark Ages. In the contest between civilizations, the Muslims had clearly surpassed the Christians by the year 1000. Today, despite its many problems, Europe is far ahead. Why do so few Muslims ask the obvious question: How did the Muslim world, like much of Asia, lose a thousand years? China too lost many centuries in catching up with the West. So did India. But both civilizations are finally waking up, absorbing the best practices of the West, including a careful delineation of the roles of religion and state in the development of modern societies. If the Muslim world cannot emulate the West, can it emulate China and India? The Prophet Muhammad once said: "Seek knowledge, even into China. That is the duty for every Muslim." If Muslims heeded such advice, Europe may not have drawn offensive cartoons. The third opportunity from the crisis is for the world to reflect on the vices and virtues of freedom of expression.The Danish prime minister’s defense is that his government could not stop the publication of the cartoons because freedom of expression is an absolute value. Technically, he is right. No Danish law would allow him to stop the cartoons. But societies do have sensitivities. The Danish insensitivity to the Muslim world has clearly come through. As Jonathan Eyal noted in the Singapore Straits Times, "No self-respecting European newspaper would dare to publish a cartoon making fun of the Holocaust, the systematic murder of Jews during World War II." Every society has its taboos. Today every society has to respect its own taboos and those of its neighbors. There is one simple reason why a few Danish cartoons could rock the world. The world is no longer a world. We live in the same neighborhood. Every human is our neighbor. The Muslims are our neighbors, too. We must respect their sentiments. And yet it would be a great loss for mankind if the virtue of freedom of expression were sacrificed or diminished as a result of this cartoon crisis. Even the Muslim world would suffer. The sad reason for the struggle of many Muslim societies is that they have some dysfunctional aspects. Some of their elites feather their own nests, not that of their populations. The lack of a free press in many parts of the Muslim world prevents critics from exposing the inequities. Hence, the Muslim world should welcome rather than reject a free press. Look, for example, at the brave work done by Tempo, Indonesia’s leading weekly newsmagazine. Only it has the courage to point out both the weaknesses of the Indonesian government and the Muslim extremists who try to stifle debate in Indonesia. The Muslim world needs more Tempos, not fewer. But the virtues of freedom of expression would be better appreciated in the rest of the world if the Western media, which dominate the world’s airwaves, encouraged a two-way street of ideas instead of the current one-way street. The open bewilderment of the Danes and Europeans at the global Muslim reaction to the Danish cartoons only reflects the widespread ignorance of the existential conditions of the Muslim world. It is no great secret that the Muslim world feels trampled upon by the West. They resent the double standards of the Western media on human rights, protesting strongly when non-Muslims are killed, as in East Timor, and protesting mildly when Muslims are killed, as in Palestine and Iraq. The Western media has convinced Western publics that they are paragons of virtue on human rights issues. But the Muslims, together with most of the five billion people who live outside the West, are acutely aware of the double standards. The Danish cartoon crisis therefore provides the Western media an opportunity for self-reflection: How could they have failed to explain the viewpoint of five-sixths of humanity to their own populations? How can a free press be so irresponsible? In short, despite the strongly held beliefs by both sides, there are no saints and sinners in this crisis. Both sides should engage in deep reflection on what they have done to allow the emergence of this crisis. When the dust has settled and the demonstrators have gone home, we should begin to work out the long-term future of mankind. Is it tenable for us to live in the same neighborhood and ignore the sentiments and wisdom of large segments of humanity? Is it wise for us to temper the open debate that the virtues of freedom of expression allow? Is it reasonable to allow the continuation of a one-way street in the passage of ideas from West to East? These are hard questions. The Danish cartoon crisis has provided us an opportunity to address them head on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kishore Mahbubani is the dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, NUS, and the author of Can Asians Think? and Beyond the Age of Innocence: Rebuilding Trust between America and the World.Rights: © 2006 Yale Center for the Study of Globalization. YaleGlobal Online. Chocoholic Yshimy, It's obviously far from perfect judging by all the nutters who muder and kill innocents in the name of 'religion' or a re they just stupid for misinterpreting it? GAB
This is where you are wrong and it is a misinterpretation of your religion. Islam is about peace and love. It does not condone violence or acts of violence. To think Islam actually thinks nothing of human life is a gross misinterpretation. You know it. What you quite often profess is blasphemy and disrespectful to the ideals of Islam.
yshimy-quite alot of what you type is gobbledegook and really just :roll: . Liban You people that do not understand are pathetic.... You will never understand because of your closed mindedness and for that you shall suffer.... I feel bad for your eventual suffering but you had ample warning.
PITIFUL BUNCH
I am done trying to make a bunch of blind people see the light when they simply cannot....
My valuable contribution to this thread ends now. GAB :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: A well constructed, thoughtful answer. Well, nice to see you back in true form. Please don't respond as that would make you untrue to your word. sniper420
Well again u r contradicting urself here. religions do have stories or accounts saying they are chosen one and being persecuted by bad and same is the case with Holocaust, persecuted by THE EVIL Hitler. Now u and I havent seen a crap, yes we believe it happened cos of certain things that may appear as proofs or reasons and finally trust and have faith on em. Some follow blindly others question. There were and are loads of other persecution far worse than Holocaust yet their persecution were given a specific name cos to save the media of trouble. I agree holocaust did happen but ppl are making very big deal out of it and taking advantage in the name of those dead ppl makes me sick. kanelli Sniper, what do you mean about people making a big deal about it and taking advantage of the dead people? Danishguy
I dont know if this was to me...
If you offendent Jesus, we would not see it in Denmark, and if we did, we would think that was maybe stupid, and then we would think the world would go on.
We are used to attacks on everything in Denmark, so stop learning me about freedom of spreech. No one is safe from cartoons in DK. The primeminister is the most drawn man in Denmark. If you did it in most countries in Arabian, you would be in prison.
We dont say apology when we haven't done anything illegal. If our Primeminister had been given an apology, he would have been fired by the parlament next day.
I think the only reason why this massive attack on Denmark, is because we dont have the same economic power as USA. Denmark is at little country, so it would be easy for 1.300.000.000 people to hate 5.000.000 people with a little economic strength. If we would have a chance to boycut arab countries, I dont think this madness would have come so far.
There is also islamic powers in Denmark who wish a "war" between Denmark and the muslim world. These powers is some Imam's who have traveled around and been telling lies about the whole situation. Richard Owl Mirror
Throughout this thread, your response was the most reasoned.
I live my life by a creed which reads:
Words, my weapon of choice
Truth, my shield kanelli Thank you ROM :) castellano hi everybody ,,, i was shocked today while reading the newspaper,,( GulfNews) ,,, its a in the readers opinions page from a Dane , here it is as it was published: Leave Scribes alone Why should a journalist in Copenhagen worry about who might take offence in Pakistan when he writes for his readers and not the whole world? If peaple in the Middle East or Pakistan are offended by an article meant for the Danes , so be it. Foreigners should not be allowed to set the agenda or decide what can and cannot be published in Denmark . The job of a journalist is to inform and encourage debate relevant to his or her readers ,not the readers any other country . It would be impossible to run articeles on important issues if one had to take into account all the possible groups of people that might take offence . from Mr.Lars Nagott Copenhagen,Denmark. well,, now ,,, what the hell is that ???? is this stupidity or what ???? if Mr.Lars doesnt want anybody to mind what is published in a Danish newspaper , then they ,in the first place , should not have get theirselves busy with the Muslim affairs ( especially the prophet ) . this kind of comment is no less violent than the violence against the danish embassies all over the world . He said "they are meant for its readers" ,,, what the hell is that ????i advise him and that newspaper to take all their readers and go to a mountain ,, and just keep showing them what they want to show them without publishing it to be seen by the whole world ,,, i think this answer is just as stupid as the opinion itself ,,, Richard Owl Mirror
castellano, do you know the full story of the beginnings of this affair?
Do you understand that this crisis was fomented by Islamic Imams from Denmark having taken FALSE cartoons which were not even a part of the original story to Egypt and spreading false rumors?
This is an example of the ORIGINAL cartoon artwork for the book.
EDITED AS PER UAE LAWS
The rest of the story, I relate on my Blog @ kanelli It was a combination of both poor judgement on the part of the newspaper editor and abuse of the situation by radical Muslims. If I were the Danish editor, I wouldn't have published the cartoons because I would not want to offend Muslims in Denmark. I do have to agree though that the media in Denmark has every right to publish for their own people. Castellano, whether you like it or understand it or not - free speech is important in many countries. There is always a group of people who get angry when another group expresses their free speech. Peaceful protest is what should be done to handle these situations. Liban
Oh... So why get in trouble when people downplay the holocaust...? yshimy
What the Hell is wrong with you people???? Can't you have a fair judgment????
What about the PM who refused to meet 11 ambassador from Muslim countries who came to him to solve the issue prior to all this fuss????? Now he is not the cause??????????
Now he is running after them to ease the impact after the situation became serious and their economy is on danger. [color=red]So The "Freedom of speech" supporting Danish government are appologizing not because they belive they hurt the muslims feeling, or because they belive what they did is wrong, but because their economy is in danger. What great morals, really a great country...!!!!![/color]
The muslims in Denmark had a very very good response, they didn't riot, they didn't go angry and their reaction was very civilized, they objected through the leagal channels (Their Embassies) the went to peace march, they sent letters.
What Freaking Radical Muslims you talk about here????? What Freaking cartoons wrongfully sent to Egypt????? i was there in spetember, we didn't see any photos, we only knew about someone drawing our prophet as a terrorist.
Guys, have some sense, Don't be fooled by the Brainwashing Media that you are exposed too, flip the channels and have both sides opinions and decide.
Kanelli, you better change the color of your car, as i can track you with your current color ;)
Peace castellano kanelli and Richard ,, i think yshimy have given you a fair answer ,,, i want you to know that i am not with the violence that took place ,, but from the other hand , you speaking about the subject as a part of "freedom of speach" ,, well, its not , its a freedom of insulting ,, a freedom of rudness ,, this is how it is . In fact since this thing started i have tried to seek an execuse in my mind for the danish newspaper,, i couldnt find a single one . ESPECIALLY , after the response of the danish government and some of the public's opinion - like the one i attached - , ok , lets say that people in the middle east has acted peacefully ,, do you think that anything would have happened ??? the answer is NO, and the big proof is the reaction of the Muslim danes in Denmark , nothing happened ,, on the contrary ,, the danish government is insisting on refusing that we refuse and condemn the cartoons ,,,, NOW I KNOW FOR SURE THAT THOSE CARTOONS WERE MEANT TO HURT US AND ONLY OUT OF HATE FEELINGS ,, NOTHING MORE . Richard ,,, even if what you are saying is true ,, which i believe is not , the damage is done by only one cartoon ,, we dont need several cartoons about the prophet pbuh, to protest , and i just respect the first person who made all muslims all over the world know about this bullshit ,, i think you agree with me that we have the "freedom to know"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! right ?? or maybe according to the western standsards we shouldnt . yshimy ,,,, the boycott is the key ,, not the protest ,, i think that the Danish government is just enjoying seeing us protesting without doing anything about it , just as Doctor Al Qardawi said : " we dont need them , they need us " what does Denmark have more than their diary ???!!!! NOTHING . castellano
yshimy ,,, i dont think that there is a single muslim on earth now being decieved by the Media , they know , but unfortunately they can do nothing , their governments are just toys in the hands of the west ,,, i just hope this changes soon . peacefully of course .
peace yshimy Cost. My comment was for the European and American people (Westerns) as their media shows us as the streostyped "Terrorists", Like the dog's joke where an arab save a kid but the media focus on the arab kicking the dog and not saving the child. if you know it... Will try to post it later. For us, All muslims have their information from friends and families all over the world so the media is just a small portion but still have some effect. Concerning our regime's change... Well, it is happening, it will be slow, but it is happening, people anger and frustration started to grow and feel helpless conserning the aggression on their fellow Iraqi's, Afghane's and before in Bosnia so... they started moving. Who would believe that a banned islamic group would win in the Egyptian Elections??? They won, despite all the hassels and violance done by the government, i saw old ladies jumping over fences to go to the poll stations... Lets jus this change continue to happen. My only fear is about Iraq... It is being shattered, and i Do belive it is purposly done by the Collation forces.... . Like the latest bombing of the Shiaa't shrine.... What a discrace. I would prefer that saddam stay in ruling. i think less people would have died and the change would be slow, but less bloddy. Peace on ya all Richard Owl Mirror
I am sorry about any misunderstanding PER UAE LAWS
This image is one of the FAKED Images that those Imam's took to Egypt and Syria.
It is simply a party-goer and the image was manipulated, then purported to be one of the cartoons which began the riots in Lebanon & Syria
ONLY the Imam's had this photo prior to and after it's manipulation.
Chocoholic Actually guys you're wrong. When the cartoons were first published, no-one, absolutely no-one batted and eye lid! Only several months later did the Danish Imam go to Egypt with a set of drawings, many not even published in the paper and started showing people there, it's then that it all blew up. Yshimy, just because you were there, doesn't mean you'll know about every little thing. The group travelled around many countries in the Middle East with the images - the Imam has admitted to doing it! This was reported in papers here in the UAE, but he strongly denies wanting to incite any kind of problem, which unfortunately is what has happened. I really don't know why you tarnish all the media as having conspiracy theories and acting against you. Without the media would everyone be reacting in such as way? Er the answer would be no! Anyway at this point don't you think, the who started it attitude is a little irrelevant? The point now is, how to deal with the situation and get everyone to calm down and move forward 'peacefully'. Yes the paper were wrong to print the images, many of those on the internet were not the ones published and they're worse, so don't get confused here. But what's done is done. It's upto Muslims to show they're upset in a peaceful way, and for others to listen and to not do it again. - End of. Richard Owl Mirror

Don't tell me you're claiming that the US and/or Jews blew up that Mosque.
You folks don't take responsibility for ANY actions done by your fellow muslims do you?
Always an excuse, never responsible for any wrongs. Richard Owl Mirror

Not unless that Imam revokes the MILLION DOLLAR REWARD for the Death of ANY & ALL who created a cartoon with an image and SAID or intimated that the image was of Muhammad.
BTW, the reward is not only money but JEWELS and CAR.
Considering the TOPIC of discussion, why would a large reward for the death of anyone involved be deemed neccessary by a Muslim ? Chocoholic Well ROM, you see this is the thing, most moderate Muslims deal with the issues in a sensible way, then you get the hardliners who just go off on one and it's death and destruction to anyone or anything that crosses them. I feel sad as it's these people harming the name of Islam, but it's never going to change unless the Muslim community stands up as a whole and tells them what they're doing and condoning is wrong. It's starting to happen in some countries, but not by nearly enough. kanelli
Um, in case you haven't been reading... Many people disagree with the fact that in some countries people can't say what they want about the holocaust. People are well aware that it is hypocritical to disallow free speech about the holocaust, especially in light of the Danish cartoons. Richard Owl Mirror
I certainly hope change is coming !
I posted @ / after 9/11 in order to find the true face of Islam, I was met with "death and destruction" from 80% of the posters.
So, I assume that 80% of Muslims around the world think and act exactly like what I encountered.
I'm glad I might have been wrong about the percentage, I hope the figuires are more like 80% moderate Muslims .
You know, I came to this forum because of this impending Port Deal.
I and most rational Americans understand that the Leadership of the UAE may indeed be friendly toward my country and have only good intentions but, if even ONE 'employee' who thinks "death and destruction" gets into my country, the deal would not have been a benefit for the USA. Danishguy
Leaders of Europe have many times said that it was wrong to do. It was a free newpaper which printed the story, so it do not represent the whole "west".
For instance, i dont say that you represent Bin Laden, just because you come form Arabia. (With your attitude Liban, i'm not sure)
I dont think you will see a law agianst this cartoon thing. In Denmark it is legal to print such cartoons, if it wasn't suposed to be blasphemy. Danish courts will decide, not the Primeminister.
In the list of countries you didn't see Denmark niether. castellano its obvious that we are not understanding each other here ,,, maybe ROM and chocoholic think that am being agressive with them and making them take the blame of that danish newspaper ,, well,, its not like this . we muslims here are talking about an apology would have settled everything ok , you guys are talking about the violance from some muslims , i agree that what happened is wrong , you agree that the publishing of those cartoons was a stupid idea, now , what do we argue about here ??? is the freedom of speach ,, in plain words ,, in this world where everybody is trying to look for a little gap where the peace would appear for the whole world , including Denmark , - which originally wasnt involved in any isult against muslims before- 1- Do you think that Denmark or any country needed this kind of crisis to happen ??? 2-dont you think that even after what happened its really a mandate from the danish government to take possitive steps towords REALLY SOLVING the problem ??? 3- if you put yourself in our place as muslims , dont you think you will always feel insulted by that if nothing is taking place by Danish government ??? i know you may say NO , but you have to REALLY put yourself in our place , ESPECIALLY , in the circle of all the frustration that muslims are suffering from the western policies ???? if the problem would have been solved by ignoring the subject ,, believe me , muslims would have ignored , but its just getting worse and worse everyday , and the examples are so many . another thing ,, when you talk about the violence that happened- WHICH I COMPLETELY BELIEVE THAT ITS WRONG - you only focus on it as if we we were not insulted ,, its only highly focused when violance come from muslims , i dont see the western government rush to condemn the violence against muslims as when governments in muslims country rush to condemn the violance agains any non-muslims or their properties ,,, and here lies the motive for the frustration that all muslims suffer ,, all the west is talking about mutual understanding between the nations , while we see totally the opposite of that !!!!!!!!!!! Richard !! ,, why cant the idea of that exploding the mosques in iraq is an american act ??? why not ??? i have read your opinion about the current administration of usa and what you think the reason for their existance their ,, do you think that they are cleaner than to do such a thing ??? dont you think that they would do any thing to maintain their existance there ??? the mosque has been there for years ,, and no sunni muslim has thought of exploding it ,, why now ??? on the other hand i dont deny that sometimes there is problems between muslims themselves ,, but we know what the limits are for those kind of problems , exploding the mosque is an old trick which the american administration is trying to play , you want the truth ?? then take it from the iraqies ,, in my job there an iraqi who has come six months ago ,, i have been talking to him and listening to what happened everyday ,,, he was there when the war has taken place ,,, you would vomit to hear what was happening ,, and still happening from the american troops there ,,,he is a sunni muslim and has shittis friends ,, yes he admits that there are arguments and sometimes fighting ,, but as an iraqi who has lived all his life in iraq ,, and is one of the best who knows how things go in iraq , he said its an american trick ,,, taking in consideration that if he thought for one moment that they were the shittis ,, he wouldnt have lost the chance to say it . but he knows that it wouldnt have gone that far . castellano see Richard ??? how you started to speak when it comes to cncern about your country ???i agree with you ,,, you are imphisizing that " even ONE " ,,, well ,, what about this ??? the whole US administration now is working on destructing Iraq and killing its people ,, how do you think that muslims would feel or react ??? i dont say that i agree with any violent work through this deal ,, but you only need to listen to this iraqi friend of mine . Richard Owl Mirror
While it is conceivable, I highly doubt it.
Shia & Sunni have been in a perpetual state of war with each other since the death of the Prophet Mohammad.
I laid out my case for why I believe this to be the true case on my Blog.
Please refer to this entry for the reasons which I believe to be the truth on this matter. yshimy
Choco, baby,
If it is a little thing, how it flamed Egypt, you don't make any sense here.
BTW you don't know how it is in Egypt, so don't assume that i wouldn't konw even if it was little.
It was spread in Egypt using SMS on the mobile phones and e-mails. Then the word of mouth and people coming from Denmark (regular people, not sheikhs) then it started to flame because of the reaction of the Danish governmetn.

Guys, where the hell you get these info from?????? I think if someone is serious about killing this guy, he would have been already dead.. come on.
About the Cartoon Image attached in the forum, first time for me to see it.

Read my lines please. Here i didn't say they bombed the shrine (but in other forum i suggested they might have did it). It is dirty politics, and if you assume that the Collition forces are there for the good of the country, then, i don't need to continue this converstaion as you would be already brainwashed by the media..... opppsss, no, you are not because everyone now including the media shows what is happening there. people DIE, country Shattered, US puppets are in government.
Please, Why the hell you think we Muslims blame it all to the west????
We blame ourselves too to be weak and unable to stand up and help our fellow muslims anywhere in the wrold.
But in the same sense we are only weak as Countries (except Iran) but as people, we are much stronger than you think, thats why people travelled to iraq prior the war trying to help, people travelled to afghanistan to help against US agression, we are people with Faith. And you all Envy us for it.
I wonder if anyone of you have a cause to die for. ....
And yes, the West is taking advantage of our weakness, can't you see that?????
Would the collition forces attack iraq if the got WMD???? If no, then my point proven.
If yes, So Why the Fu(k they are not attacking N.Korea????/??????
Double standards, Thank you
Cheer up guys, i don't have anythign against anyone of you, i met Americans world wide and was sad about how they see us as Arabs and Muslims, and realized they are victims of their Media and Governments.
And also met American and European people who knows what is going around and Don't agree with their countries trying to use their force against nations they have nothing to do with. yshimy Just to make my piont of how we as muslims try to change from within.
This is a link to an Article by Time Magazine about Egyptian preacher, He is not working only in Egypt but across the Muslim countries.
And he is the most popular for about 5 years or more now. If people don't like the way he thinks, he wouldn't have been the most popular.
Please note that in my previous post, about collition forces bombing the shrine, it is just a theory that is supported by historical dirty deeds by the US forces. It might be right or wrong, so don't hang on it alot.
Peace Liban
You know very little, if not nothing, concerning the relations between Sunni and Shia. Any outward differences are minor. Any inward differences are frabrications and straight out false.
During the Caliphate eras, Sunni and Shia, were not in a "perpetual state of war" as you put it... kanelli Why the killing if the differences are so little and there is no hard feelings between the groups? If it was really the case that even the US was manipulating the situation (highly highly unlikely!) - how would those groups ever be persuaded to kill each other? Killing fellow Muslims is a sin is it not? So many unanswered questions and so much denial... Richard Owl Mirror
Perhaps in your circle the relations is not affected but, I have heard over and over, time and again without any deviation that Shia are not true muslims.
That their Shrines & mausoleums of revered Imams are not Islamic and this is the very reason why they are now being targeted.
Perhaps it is Radical rhetoric :?: Liban
Radical rhetoric for the sake of maintaining ones tribal position (Arabs are clan/tribal based)
AND/OR
Zionist propaganda yshimy ROM,
It wouldn't help trying to assume things between Sunni and Shiaa.
Even in Sunna we have shrines and how can you assume we say that Shiaa are not Muslims.
In Egypt we have alot of Shrines.
If you don't know, don't assume, if you have sources of what you are talking about, please provide them, but don't let them be sources of unknown people or people of ignorance.
Kanelli,

You are wrong
Killing ANY Life unjustified by law and Gods order is wrong.
Even killing a dog without a reason is wrong.
What is happening in Iraq "away from the conspiracy theory"... i think it is more of fight for power or to show domination, more than a spiritual differences.
Below is my opinion:
With the unrest and vacant "Country Leader" not the puppets assigned by the collation forces. Each party try to be the dominant to have the country specified to his sect.
I still state, i prefer Saddam be in Ruling than seeing what is happening now. [color=red]This is the consequences of forgien intervention to force democracy in unprepared society.[/color]
Democracy is like a knife, if given to an adult, he can defend himself, hunt with it, and heal wounds with it. but if given to a child, he will hurt himself and the people around him.
Peace be upon you all.
God Bless Iraq Liban
God Bless the proud Iraqi Nation! God Bless our Iraqi Arab Brothers. kanelli yshimy, I agree that Saddam should have been left in power until his own people threw him out. Countries need to be ready for democracy on their own grounds and in their own time. Some Iraqis would disagree with us though - some felt that they would never be able to topple Saddam because he'd just continue to slaughter his own people in retaliation. The massive force used by the coalition was seen as a blessing, but still - the Iraqi's need to be able to form their own government. This includes stopping sectarian violence. I still disagree that the coalition has anything directly to do with the sectarian violence. yshimy WEll, Kanelli, Lets agree to disagree on some points. Hope time prove we both wrong and the viloance is just a minor thing that will go by time and leaves Iraq as united nation, and not be divided into minor ones. I agree with you about Iraqi people should be the ones toppling their leader.... Yeah some Iraqi's might disagree, but.. hay, do they like how their country is doing now.... Cheer Kanelli kanelli Let's hope yshimy. I too wish the same for Iraq. It is very frustrating to see so little progress on reconstruction and solid government because of all the insurgent attacks. The coalition can't leave until the country is secure, and that is another reason why insurgents are causing problems. If they keep the coalition hanging around they figure the world will get upset and put pressure on them to leave too early - allowing perfect conditions for certain sectarian groups to take power. yshimy Kanelli, It is a visiouce circle, the country will not get better as long as the collation forces is there, and in the same time if they left, there will be struggle for power. Anyway the struggle for power is comming, so i prefer the forces Leave ASAP leaving a UN peace keeping forces (usless, but better than nothing) and give it a time for the country to recover. As long as the Collition forces are there, i'm sure no progress will happen. As we (as arabs) see any forign existance in our lands by force as occupatoin despite any political naming the media or the west give it. So the regular iraqi in the street or the insurgence forces or any sect, just see it as occupational forces. so there will always be a resistance. Just like when the English and the French were in Egypt. Just like when the french where in Algeria, and we saw how long it took Algeria to recover. Richard Owl Mirror
Are not the masses merely "unknown people or people of ignorance" ?
A Leader may make a statement but, it is the common man on the street which can foment rebellion and civil war.
Now, granted I do believe the majority of posters @ / are "unknown people or people of ignorance" and it is what these folks SCREAM each and every day from which I have formed this opinion on.
It is a Muslim Forum and yet, Shia are often banned simply for being Shia or else they are confronted with death threats etc...
So, who shall I believe? One man or the masses and their shouting for revenge against the Shia ? Liban What is your fascination with ? Richard Owl Mirror
It is not a fascination, I am only trying to point to where I formed my opinions regarding Islam and Muslim sentiments towards me and my fellow countrymen.
I am actually relieved to have found an alternative view to that which I've been accustomed recently. yshimy what you are saying is extremely ....... unresonable. So you form you opinion about a specific issue that existed since more than 1000 years on a situation you faced in specific forum???? It is like saying that white people are racist based on an experience in a KKK meeting..... totally nonsense. Cheers sniper420
onetime u tsay the cartoons are ok and then u say imams are lying. Well it started on Sep 2005, and imams got together to convince it's wrong but ur president dumbo knew ot was sesitive tpic and tried to mess with it and got what he deserved. Slandering the Prophet is same as slandering Holocaust victims. Now if u did draw a cartoon ridiculing Holocaust victim wont u be spanked hard ? Where will be ur feedom of speech? There is nothing like complete freedom, if u use that freedom u have to face the consequences. Richard Owl Mirror
Well that Forum has posters from all around this Planet and not just a classroom.
People from very diverse backgrounds and education are present and when confronted each and every one of them stated plainly that it was perfectly OK, Islamically to have killed all those people on 9/11
Not knowing enough of Islam, I take a muslim for their words.
What else am I to think?
I certainly wouldn't want to have those same conversations IN PERSON with someone defending the deaths of 3000+ of my fellow citizens.
So, should I separate ISLAM from MUSLIMS ? Liban Americans and their Israeli agents have killed hundreds of thousands of Arabs through the years. You not serperating the acts of a few from the religion of Islam is like me saying there is no difference between American people and their murderious regime and satellite regime. yshimy With all respect...... Your post reflects even great ignorance, or .... huge bad luck. Just make a new post and check, i'm sure the percentage of the people who are against 9/11 will be double those who are with. i'm talking muslims only.. Being frustrate from the US as superpower and wanted to have revenge from all what happened doesn't justify killing civilians. I wonder where you met group of muslim people who are 100% of them supports 9/11.........i think it was the Qaeda camp.. Man, you have been looking for birds deep in the ocean i think. ahmed zemmo
Sorry my religion came and never gone! Danishguy



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