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For rudeboy - taking the Quran out of 'context'


desertdudeshj Well I really didn't want to get involved in this thread but I thought I'd give it my 2 cents anyways :D Why are we only looking at the only the Quran here. The bible has more Murders, Wars, rape, Violence, Incestacide, doom and gloom specially in the Old testament that the Quran will ever have. And we can blame the Crusades which brutally and openly killed thousands of muslims and non muslims alike all in the name of the holy father on the bible. Lets not talk violence, terror and Islam. Who in recent history and probally in all written history is responsible for the biggest crime, act of terror and violence against mankind. Adolf Hitler a German Christian succesfull carried out his campaign in killing 6,000,000 jews. Think about that number. thats more than twice the population of the entire UAE. Bin Landen cannot even hold a candle to any of Hitlers achievments. No translation will ever do justice to the Quran and that is why it is still preserved in the orginal language and text it was revealed in and not some long lost ancient language and scrolls. Thats why its also advised to learn the orginal language to really get to the source. If I was a chirsto-phobe like you are an Islam-o-phobe believe me brother I have much more cannon fodder to sling your way. You have little bit here and there. I have two thousand years worth of material. Lets not start to point fingers at each other before looking at one owns self. You know people in glass houses n throwing stones and all that jazz.
desertdudeshj
Absolutely correct but we already tried this angle with rats, but ofcourse it didn't work. Neither will of any of my arguments or anyone elses. As he has already set his mind to what he beileves and to what the quran is all about or atleast what he wished it to be. Red Chief
Sorry Ruddy, you can compare NT with Windows NT, but Q with OS/2 only, not Vista.
8) desertdudeshj All the advocates of Islam being a religon of violence hold very close the 164 verses of Jihad in the Quran.
Contarary to popular belief and much to disdain of these people. Jihad does not mean any holy war waged by the muslims against the non-muslims. The actual meaning of Jihad actually means to strive and to struggle. It can also be an emotional Jihad for example grieving the loss of a loved one.
If I am struggling to provide food and shelter for my family then it would not be wrong to say I'm doing Jihad to provided sustainace for my family. So everytime the word jihad is mentioned does not mean waging war.

I don't see anything wrong with it. What I do see wrong is you trying to make it more than it ireally is. And of your insisting that conquer here means by a violent means or method.
Why stick so closely only to pickthall I dunno. There are many other more contemporary translations also out there. Pickthalls is an early 20th century translations. If the chirstians can have revised bible every decade or so arn't we allowed a later translation ?
Many have used diffrent words for the same, manifest, overcome but you insist on conquer because it sounds most warlike and serves your purpose better. No problem.
What would you make of it. If a fine young lady said to you have conqured my heart, mind, soul and body with your truthfullness, your sincerity and your righteousness ? Does it mean you subjected her to some kind of violence ?

Says you
Ofcourse we can but would be wrong of us. As we all know the dear pope called for this and declared open season on all muslims and the crusaders were considerd Soliders of God. I'm not going to go into detail as I'm sure you already know or can look it up yourself
Yes if you do look into it. the crusades were vain political events in the guise of religon which many innocents paid the price for. olivertwisted translation again is an interpretation by a person and differs hence from person to person .... The Quran in its pure and unadulterated form is in Arabic and the only thing one hopes to achieve is to TRY and explain it as best as possible in english.... People have spent their whole lives trying to figure out what the Quran is about as we as muslims are encouraged to READ and contemplate about the true meaning. Hence pickthall or any other sort of translation cannot be a point of reference for an argument as it is only the perspective of the person who wrote it. The true words of message of Allah lies in the Arabic form and needs to be studied to a great degree of depth ... desertdudeshj
I totally disagree with this, and no where in Islam does it say that. And I've actually thought of getting in touch with C4 management about it.
If your really serious RC I would be more than happy to gift you a copy. freefromrats
Can you tell me how I've taken any verse I've posted out of context and then tell me why Pickthall's translation of verse 61.009 is inaccurate? rudeboy
First you answer my questions and then I will answers yours. How about that, we do a bit of comprimising otherwise we will have a war on our hands ;).
so I will ask you again " can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?". freefromrats
Good question. Rudeboy asserted that I had taken the Koran's passages, which call for warfare against unbelievers, out of context.

To my knowledge, I had posted the Koranic passages in their whole, however, rudeboy seems to indicate that I have only partially pasted the violent verses and that the remaining verse actually does not promote what the plain meaning of the verses seem to command.
I have yet to see rudeboy respond in this thread, so the ball is really in his court now.
And as far as I can tell, the surrounding verses from the passage I quoted from (context) do not provide any different interpretation either. It would be interesting to note whether or not Islam and the Koran teach Muslims to wage wars and carry out terrorist attacks (3:151) or if Islam is really the religion of peace and I've simply read bad translations of the Koran. freefromrats On another thread, 'rudeboy' alleged I took a number of the violent and militant passages in the Koran, the ones which say to attack unbelievers and unbelief, out of context.
So, skipping the introduction, I'll go straight to the violent/militant Quranic passages (with chapter and verse numbers) and try to see what surrounding passages I must have missed that supposedly places the violent/militant passages in their proper 'context'.
Verse 61.009 of the Koran, says that Muhammad's religion will one day conquer other religions:

Surah 61 is a short chapter - only 14 verses, so let's start with that one and go from there.
I cannot see which verse in that chapter places the ninth verse into its proper context (whatever that means) other than to come to the conclusion from its straight forward meaning that Muslims are to conquer other religions.
Once rudeboy points out these mystery verses, then I can move onto the next violent verse in the Koran.

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catalyst could you explain more what you are doing ? catalyst I just want to know what you want to prove :roll: Bora Bora Expect a call from Catalyst. :roll: rudeboy
There are reasons behind to it why you cant touch the Holy Quran by your dirty paws :P.
But if you want to learn about the Quran you could always find a online quran website or download the Quran software ;) catalyst Hey body .. this does not work .. rudeboy
Freefromrats, if your concious is pure and clean and you do not have a anti-islam agenda, I suggest you read the Quran yourself and then you read the correct translations of the Quran.
I would luv to sit here and proove you wrong. But honestly speaking I dont have the time and in my opinion ppl who have already made their mind up that they will hate Islam from day one, are not willing to learn about Islam. In fact they want to come on the forum and just spread hate and anger towards islam.
If you truely want to learn and understand Islam you should read the whole Quran from the first chapter rather then reading it from here and there.
In short Islam is the religion of peace. In the Middle East, Christians, Hindus, Etc live Peacefully amongst Muslims. If Islam was all about Jihad then dont you think christians minorities would have been wiped out from countries such as lebanon, jordan, syria, kuwait, Iraq etc?
Even in the western world you have muslims living amongst ppl of other religions. Do you see Muslims killing hindus or Christians on the roads of London or New York? If Islam was all about Jihad, dont you think UK would be in a bloodbath right now?
Like I said read the Quran and read its true translations. You have visited some websites which are anti-islam and you have posted their translations.
If you want to learn about Islam and the Quran, I will be more then willing to help you. But this is only if from day one your mind and your hearth is pure & clean and you dont have any other agendas.
so the ball is in your court now ;) catalyst I totally agree to what rudeboy just said . Please don't be like those guys whose logic is the same as the Dutch lawmaker Geert Wilders (the maker of the movie Fitna). They assume prophet muhammad was a terrorist and quran is like Hitler's book Mein Kampf and from that point onward, all the activities they see of islam, they find a terrorist or Hitler has done the same thing, confirming their first premise. Needless to say, with that logic others have called Jesus Christ a homosexual, Moses a murderer, Nelson Mandela a terrorist leader, and Gandhi a peace breaker. As time progresses, the truth unravels, but for a human being it is easy to live an entire life period being immersed in falsehood. :roll: Flying Dutchman
Really? Christian minorities are diminishing fast in Arab/Muslim countries. Mohammed started this ethnic cleansing with making the Arabian Peninsula Judenrein (or did Mohammed also misinterpret the Quran?). After 1948 Jews were practically ethnically cleansed from all Arab countries. Now it seems in a lot Arab countries its the Christians turn. But still, its all the evul Djoos fault, right? The world would be a better place if Hitler finished his job, right Rudeboy??? Red Chief Play the game, Ruddy. Stop lame excuses about incorrect translation, speaking in general etc. Ball is still on your side, you know that.
rudeboy
Christian minorities are diminishing fast in arab/muslim countries. and do you have facts and figures to back your argument. if so please paste the link so that everyone can read it.
2ndly I can say the same about how Palestinian Muslims and Christians are being wiped out from Palestine by the jews ;). I can also go on and say how the muslims are being treated in China ;). I can go on and on about how Muslims are being wiped out from states of India such as Gujarat and how muslim women and girls are raped and killed by the hands of Indian forces in Jammu Kashmir. I can go on and on how muslims are being cleansed in Chechyneya and how they were cleansed in countries such as Kosovo. and how late USA was to react to it and how they brought to trial some serbian leaders for their crimes against muslims.
I Can go on. but i am not here to play the blame game and this post is not about the blame game either, in fact its about Islam and the Quran. so FD post another thread and start your own buddy ;) rudeboy
not a huge difference between Hitler, Bush, Blair or even your new American president. They all were good at sweet talking so that they could get votes and get into powerful positions. And they all were responsible for killing many ppl. So I dont think it would have mattered if the world would have been a better place if Hitler finished his job, because still today, on earth there are millions of ppl suffering from death, war, crime, shortage of food and now the new disease called swine flu ;) Red Chief
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Pls. give a little more details from this place. You hardly find a single Christian there nowadays.
Did you lay one more egg? :wink: rudeboy Rats here is the translation of surah 61:9 (61:9) He it is Who has sent forth the Messenger with the Guidance and the True Religion that He may make it prevail over all religion, however those that associate aught with Allah in His Divinity might dislike this. instead of making it easier for all of you and tell you what this means and what this implies too. I will ask RATS to do abit research and see what he comes up with, (guessing it will be some anti-islam crap since he doesnt know where to look ;) ). Bora Bora There are two things people will never agree on: politics and religion. rudeboy
i agree but I think that if a person wants to learn about some religion he should have a clear mind and heart.
I also think that religion and politics and sports should not be mixed :D Flying Dutchman
Show me one Islamic scolar, Imaam, Shaikh, mullah whatever who says that the goal of Islam isnīt world hegemoney, that Islam shouldnīt conquer the world?
Mohammed and his successors were engaged in Holy offensive Jihad. The Ottoman Empire was all about Holy offensive Jihad. Were they bad Muslims? Did they misinterpret the Quran and the Sunnah? catalyst No one says that goal of Islam is world hegemoney except you . There is no such offensive Jihad my friend . Define Jihad first . Study Jihad goals . Then compare it with others did - you know what I mean - . Bora Bora
A clear mind and heart doesn't mean they have to agree with what they are being told. Religion is a matter of interpretation. The three holy books that are generally referred to: the Quran, the Holy Bible, the Torah, were all written and delivered in a different time. Much of what they contain suited the times they were in. Much of what they contain is outdated for the times we live in now. What was acceptable then, without question, is not acceptable now, which has been questioned because we as people have evolved. If you take the best from each holy book, you would find there are many similarities in all of them, and those similarities are what mankind should practice, and it would be by far a better world that we live in. Flying Dutchman
So, you couldnīt come up with one Islamic scolar hey? Just say so instead of trying to obfuscate.

Ok, I looked up fard al-kifaya. Red Chief @BB Amen but I don't think that that soup will be eatable. catalyst
Hey Bora , It is stated clearly in Holy Quran - if you read - that it was sent for all human kinds muslims and non-muslims for all times including our time . You have to have clear mind and heart to in order not to verify your pre-judgment about anything . You just have to be fair . :wink: Misery Called Life Hey BB you could watch that documentry on google vid called Children of Abraham. Shot in Palestine, it's preminitions are startling, in a good way. Check it out, if you have the time. It's really long. I only managed to finish a part 1 and a lil of part 2. Well I don't knw about other religions, but the original dead sea scrolls based on which The Bible was written are open to public. For increased coverage these scrolls are online too. The very original scrolls. So there is absolutely no room for mis intrerpratation. rudeboy
the goal of Islam is not world take over by FORCE. It is a religion of peace. you have to read the Quran from the first chapter to understand the laws of life. As a non-muslim you will find some of the Sharia laws strange but thats because you havent read the Quran. If you start to read a book from the middle or near the end, you will only confuse yourself since you dont know what happened in the earlier chapters.
Thats why I suggest to read the Quran yourself rather then copying and pasting things from websites that cant be trusted. Bora Bora
Well you and Rudeboy are determined to prove your positions on Islam. Telling other people to have a clear mind and heart to see it your way is a bit of a contradiction wouldn't you say?
And as I said, those books suited the times. They were written for the now and then. None of those who wrote the holy books were visionaries. If they were, they would have seen the future and something different would have been written.
Why should I focus on the dark side of a religion when there is so much to be said on the good side? You, like I can, can have our own interpretation of what we read. I doubt that you live and breath by the book.
Maybe you think it's OK to strap a bomb on a girl that is mentally unequipped to understand what is being done to her in the name of Islam, with the purpose of killing innocent people, but I don't. Those people who do such things are doing it in the name of Islam, because that is the interpretation of the Quran that was indoctrinated in them by someone or people who are full of hate. We all know the difference between good and bad, but it is only the weak mind of a weak person that can be convinced that such actions are justified.
I really don't need for you to keep telling me how I should perceive what is written. I have seen enough hypocrites from all religions, but the most hypocracy I have seen is here in the UAE. Ramadan is coming and they come out in full force. catalyst
The problem with you guys you don't ever read . Don't just read what other thinks about Quran and Islam . You need to read the Quran yourself and think with your own mind . Read the Quran as unity . Don't just read what you like or dislike .Then you can make judgment that based on sight .
Bora , from that comment , I can tell that you didn't ever read Quarn . Quran come from Allah , not just written by human beings . Ramdhan is coming and you should know that the first verse in Quran was in Ramdhan . :roll: catalyst
The problem with you guys you don't ever read . Don't just read what other thinks about Quran and Islam . You need to read the Quran yourself and think with your own mind . Read the Quran as unity . Don't just read what you like or dislike .Then you can make judgment that based on sight .
Bora , from that comment , I can tell that you didn't ever read Quarn . Quran come from Allah , not just written by human beings . Ramdhan is coming and you should know that the first verse in Quran was in Ramdhan and it says " READ ! ". :roll: Bora Bora
Stop preaching Catalyst. You don't know what I have read or haven't read. I use free thinking in forming my opinions. You should try it someday. The Quran was delivered to Prophet Mohammed (PMUH), who in turn wrote the messages he received, or is it that don't you understand that part or are you telling me something that someone else put in your head.
The difference between me and you is that I converted to Islam, you on the other hand were born into it. Do you think I made that decision blindly? Greater is the choice. If I interpreted Islam the way you do, I probably would have never gone in that direction.
I have had enough of this discussion with you. To continue will only cause friction, which I would like to avoid. But, just a little advice, when you push something down someone's throat, they always spit it out and it leaves a sour taste! Stop pushing your views, and stop critizing those who don't share them.
End of discussion. Flying Dutchman
Mohammed was illiterate, he never wrote anything down, let alone the Quran. catalyst
Its OK . I don't want to discuss with you anymore .. :roll: rudeboy lol no 1 is preaching here. I am not a preacher nor am I forcing anyone to convert to Islam. and the same goes for catalyst. All we are doing here is protecting our religion and telling ppl what they might not know. nothing wrong with that, considering how Islam and Quran have a huge effect on Muslims. If you are a muslim you would understand that ;) 2ndly yes there are suicide bombings going on around the world. Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine & even Pakistan. I do not support suicide bombings but if you have to defend your home and your family from UAVs, tanks and armed personal what would you do? Defend yourself right? and thats what the Quran says. If attacked or forced out of your homes, you should defend yourself. This is common sense, muslim or non-muslim. Also are these ppl who carry out these bombings muslims? I have said it and will say it again. Just because your name is Muhammad doesnt mean that you are automatically a Muslim. Yes BB you are right, that many muslims are born as muslims. They have muslim names and you would think that they are muslims. But to be a muslim there is more then just to having a muslim name. now please lets stick to the topic and i hope rats does come back with his or her translation :D if someone wants to discuss about anything related to Islam suggest you start your own thread ;). catalyst human muslims by trait and NOT just by name, muslim is a time function and not a state function .. uaekid
"61.9": He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.
my friend , you wont find it in any religion that human should kill each other, Islam is a believe, it overcoming other religions simply means that one day the majority of humans will be Muslims, it mean Islam will dominate other religions, in another meaning many ppl will believe in it compared to other believes. so how did you did take Islam as a feeling that will dominate other religion into a Muslim killing others ? Bora Bora
Its all related boy. I don't recall any weapons being deployed or bombers and tanks on the roof of the Trade Center on 9/11 pointed at Muslim countries, unless of course, you know something the rest of the world doesn't. You really make no sense when you open your mouth.
No you are not preaching or looking to convert, but at the same time you are doing a real injustice to Islam with your interpretation. Because of the mysteries that religion holds, you would have to spend every day of your life to understand them. Don't think that people have to accept your interpretation as truth or fact. You and Catalyst don't support your arguments (opinions/interpretations) very well as there are too many holes in them. I am no expert on Islam, and you two are far from being experts as well.
I think if people want to know more about Islam, there are by far many other and better resources to learn from than you two. What you two think know could fit in a thimble. rudeboy
you are entitled to your opinions but Islam is a simple religion to believe in and you are right THEY DONT NEED ME OR CATALYST TO listen to. But when a person comes online and starts accusing your religion of this and that you as a muslim should do your best to defend your religion. ANd thats what I am doing puddycat. nothing wrong with that puddycat is there? Jihad is not done with weapons, it is done with words too ;).
and if i dont make sense when I open my mouth, I suggest you should do your best not to start or continue conversations with moi ;) rudeboy
Yes kid is right.
and rats I suggest you have a look at
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=61 and its translation. Bora Bora
Defending Islam would be necessary if someone is showing disrespect. No accusations are being made, nor disrespect. It is about interpretation. One view as opposed by another view. Because someone doesn't see it the way you think they should see it, doesn't make it wrong. Everyone is entitled to his own interpretation. Accept that.
For the most part I have watched you spread your ignorance on DF, without commenting. I generally stay out of religious issues of debate because no good ever comes from it. I interjected here because you cannot accept someone elses interpretation of Islam. One person renders his interpretation, you render what you think is the absolute word. If you believe in something strongly, no one can hurt that belief. rudeboy
i agree with you. EVeryone is intitled to their own interpretation of Islam. I have just pointed out to RATS that there are many interpretations of Islam especially on the net. you will find true interpretations and false interpretations by anti-islam websites which have their own agendas.
RATS quoted from anti-islam websites and nor was it his/her interpretations of islam. I requested RATS to read the Quran so that he can have his own views of Islam and the Quran. If he does that thats great. If he doesnt do that, the world wont come to an end.
Guiding someone to the correct path is not a sin ;) rudeboy and lets stick to the topic ;) Red Chief
Excuse me, Sir. Each time I went past a bookshelf with Quran in Carefour I read following warning (sorry I didn't learn it by heart):
"Dear non-Muslim exparts, we humbly ask you not to touch Holy Quran by your dirty paws!"
So even if I wanted to read the book I could not do that. What a pity! :wink: faheemkamram Narrated 'Aisha (Radi-Allahu 'anha): When the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) became ill, some of his wives talked about a church which they had seen in Ethiopia and it was called Mariya. Um Salma and Um Habiba had been to Ethiopia, and both of them narrated its (the Church's) beauty and the pictures it contained. The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) raised his head and said, "Those are the people who, whenever a pious man dies amongst them, make a place of worship at his grave and then they make those pictures in it. Those are the worst creatures in the Sight of Allah." Bukhari Vol. 2 : No. 425 Learn Quran online with its a great way to learn quran with tajweed, learn the Quran recitation online For learning quran online you can contact us at 001 201 793 8133 or go directly on our web site freefromrats
Good point rudeboy. If Islam was all about jihad, then you would expect that the countries/territories you mentioned would have had been conquered and Islamic law established by force - as it commands Muslims to do in the Quran.

Interesting perspective. I had never known prior to this thread that Muhammad Pickthall, a Muslim scholar, is known for his 'false' translations of the Koran.

You mean that is one translation of that verse.

So, basically, the huge difference between the translations is that one translator uses the word 'conquer' to unequivocally provide the plain meaning to the verse - that Islam will militarily conquer all other religions and the translation you provided where the translator uses the term 'make it prevail over all religion'.
Hmm, I assume that you have not realized that making a religion prevail against other means conquering other religions, right?
Given the fact that one Muslim translator uses the word conquer and all the other translations talk of taking over all other religions, it would seem obvious to me that the Arabic is speaking of dominating other religions in a militant context. freefromrats
The only websites I've quoted from were the MSA (Muslim student association) website and a Muslim tafseer website.
But, you are more than entitled to believe in your delusions.

I'm more than happy to read your explanation on how exactly Pickthall's translation is a 'false' interpretation. rudeboy freefromrats there is a huge difference between conquer and prevail. Your first impression of conquer would be a army take over by force. have you read http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=61 which explains about surah 61:9? In short before Islam there were many religions as there are today. God said Islam will take over these religions because there was corruption, greed and wrong doings in all other religions such as ppl worshiping stone statues as their god. killing their daugthers or believeing that ppl like Jesus (pbuh) and all the other messengers before Muhammad (pbuh) were actually God. God didnt want this and He said Islam will take over these "bad" religions. 2ndly where does surah 61:9 say that you have to kill all other non-muslims in order to take over their religions? All it does say is take over other religions. does it say anywhere in the quran that you should kill non-muslims in order to spread Islam??? Like I said there are non-muslims living in muslim countries and they would have been wiped out if Islam was a killing machine religion. Instead its not, its a peaceful religion. Same goes for Millions of muslims living in USA and Europe. Those guys are there for the last 100 years and have you seen any Islamic uprisings in USA or parts of Europe so that they can spread Islam. Instead it is spreading slowly and peacefully. And this is what Surah 69:1 mean. Metaphor79
In order for us to criticize something we need to fully understand it. Apparently, you, Rudeboy and Catalyst have the least knowledge about what you guys are discussing. If you’re interested in Islam as a religion, you have a variety of channels to learn about it, but not through a forum full of a bunch of bored people. On the other hand, if you hate Islam and think it’s a hostile religion, your hatred won’t harm it in any way.
Read books and talk to scholars so that you can have a clear picture about Islam, if not convinced, religion is a choice after all. Bora Bora Here's an idea. Take this thread to the Religion Forum where you can find other people who would love to join in, and you would have a great mix. I ask this because we have seen this subject raised numerous times and it is getting tedious to have to see it over and over. Thanks guys. catalyst good idea .. freefromrats
I agree. Muslims understand Islam based off of the rulings of scholars and the consensus of the ulema, as opposed to reading the Koran for oneself (as I'm doing) and learning the true teachings of Islam.

Of course you're referring to the English translation of Koran here, but the verse says to *make* one religion prevail over others, i.e., conquer.

No, I believe that the Koran can be understood without having to resort to using outside sources. In any event, that commentary does not discuss the matter at hand, only the scholar's twisted and limited knowledge of first century Christianity.

You mean there were religions that existed before Islam? I have to say, most (all?) anthropologists would agree with you.

Unfortunately, Jews do not worship stones, statues or other gods and yet the passage says to make Islam prevail/conquer *all* religions - including Judaism.

Agreed. The Koran says that Muslims are to 'take over' other religions. No argument there.

Typically, people tend to die from wars of aggression and perpetual holy war.
Didn't you say in another thread that innocent civilians will always be harmed in war? That type of thing is to be expected when launching jihads all across the world and all.

The Koran says, multiple times, to wage war to spread Islam. If war can be waged without killing or Islam can be spread without war, then that would be all the better.

What can I say? I'm thankful that Muslims do not follow the teachings of the Koran. uaekid oh man ,what are you ? a new version of the Bangladesh guy ? be what you wana be and let others, even if there religion is asking them to eat them selves. the world does ot need religious extremists like you guys from all sides. now be gone and let the world to be in peace. And yes please take it to the religious forum.. shafique This thread does seem to be in the wrong section.
I do agree with FreefromRats that it is a great idea to learn about a religion from original sources and commend him for reading the Quran and giving us the benefit of his views.
It is interesting, though, to contrast his conclusions with another independent thinker who has even taken the trouble to write a long book on Islam, it's teachings, history and even his views on its future.
Here's an extract from an article about what this scholar says:

The article argues that Islam is stuck in its Middle Ages - a premise that I have made myself in the past (independent of Prof Kung).
I'm quite tolerant of other people's views of the world - for example there are those who sincerely believe the world is flat, Elvis is still alive or Jacko was an alien.
In this case, we must choose whose view we want to lend more weight - Prof Kung or Monsieur Le Rat?
:)
Cheers,
Shafique Humbleman "In short Islam is the religion of peace. In the Middle East, Christians, Hindus, Etc live Peacefully amongst Muslims. If Islam was all about Jihad then dont you think christians minorities would have been wiped out from countries such as lebanon, jordan, syria, kuwait, Iraq etc? " Well-said To freeformats Such an accusation doesn't stand a ground when its baseless and has been proved otherwise. I see such an accusation as mere propaganda and Islam-phobic rhetoric. I've been travelling throughout the Middle East for the last three months, and I've came across with so many of what you called non-believers, and guess what, they are living and working freely, not to mention there are large Arabs who are Christian, Jew etc. To your disappointment, Islam is one of the fastest growing religion in the world, whether you like it or not. You, and like-minded have failed to sway peoples' opinion about this fascinating and peaceful religion. This due to the fact that people around the world ain't stupid, they are smart enough to distinguish between a politically motivated group, whom main anger have been driven by what has been happening in the Middle East (Israel - Palestine and American's one-sided support to the Israeli, and the support to some of those stupid Arabic leaders etc). People also have come to realized that Afganistan has never been in a peace since its creation . Its been a chaotic country, and as a result, the majority of its people have developed a war-minded attitudes and mistrust, patriarchal rule etc- it has nothing to do with Islam. Lighting up buddy. And try to embrace your fellow humans regardless of their spirituality. However, it's fair to say this, I do think the Middle East region is in a desperate need for a proper education, and emphasis on the need to abolish the patriarchal lifestyle, and embrace the equality between men and women. Which as we know, was some centuries ago used to be the norm and practice in almost every societies throughout the world. Example, Victorian Era etc. Sadly this practice is relatively still in practice in the Middle East. Again, it's a cultural rather than anything else. :) freefromrats
I definitely agree with Hans Kung, who has written a long book on Islam (that I haven't read), when he says that Islam is incapable of adapting to the values of the twenty and twenty-first century:

I gotta say, I agree with him there, don't you?

We should definitely take into consideration the conclusions drawn from scholars and historians but, what does that have to do with this thread? freefromrats
What does this long post have to with this thread again? uaekid
well said Humbleman shafique
I also agree with Kung with many of his points - the medieval-minded Mullahs are indeed stuck in the past.
He also argues that Muhammad, pbuh, is a prophet of God and in the quote I gave above (pointedly ignored by you in your post, I note) - he is making the point that Islam does not teach violence.
I presume you've read the reviews of Kung's book to conclude what you state above. What Amazon's review from 'Publisher's weekly' says of his book says though is:

Note the 'already underway' and key word 'next' in 'next paradigm'..

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The practicing Muslims of the world today (not least those converting to Islam) can be examined to see whether their choice of religion is at odds with the 'post-modern world' or not. Happy to examine any specific aspects of Islam that you consider to be anachronistic - but let's do that in the religion section.

My point was that I was commending you on taking the initiative and reading the Quran directly to get a view of what Islam teaches, but I pointed out that your conclusion about what Islam teaches about warfare/treatment of non-Muslims etc is at odds with the scholar I quoted (the quote was about attributing violence to Islam).
I was contrasting your apparent view and Kung's conclusions.
If my point is still unclear - let me know and I'll be happy to clarify. ;)
Cheers,
Shafique freefromrats
Unfortunately, the quote was not what Islam teaches about violence - since the Koran teaches Muslims to attack unbelievers.
The quote simply said that Islam cannot be blamed for suicide bombings, beheadings (although beheading is a punishment in the Koran and hadiths), car bombings, etc.
I did not see Hans Kung explain the violent passages in the Koran which order Muslims to carry out militant strikes against unbelievers. It is possible that he tackles this issue in his long book but, I have not yet had a chance to even read it. Perhaps you were referring to that instead of the article you linked to?

I'm not sure if that is proof at all or simply that Muslims (thankfully) do not follow the teachings in the Koran. I am more than happy to compare the number of terrorist attacks (thwarted ones included) of Muslim converts with the number of terror attacks (thwarted ones included) by converts to other faiths and then draw any conclusions from these numbers.
Just recently, as in the last two weeks, there were two terror cells in Australia and one in the United States of Muslim terrorists who were rounded up for plotting attacks against Australia and the US respectively. I believe two of those cells included converts who become subscribers to a violent ideology *after* their conversion of Islam.
Makes one wonder if Islam loosens ones inhibitions towards violence that are normally kept in check. shafique
I know you want to believe this is the case - however, the quote I gave showed Kung agrees with all of us who disagree with you.
You appear to agree with him though that Islam does not condone terrorism. Which, I guess, is progress.

I was citing his conclusion from the article as it related to whether Islam condones violence. I quoted a review from his book to address your point about Kung's views about Islam being relevant in post-modern times.

They thankfully don't follow what I call the 'orientalist' view of Islam, but rather the actual teachings of the religion - a conclusion you should also reach should you get round to reading Prof Kung's books - or indeed if you read all the verses of the Quran relating to relations with non-Muslims, justice and even the ones on warfare.

Great - I'll take you up on that.
Let's count the numbers of civilians killed violently by either explosions or weapons, for reasons other than robbery/crimes etc.
I'll let you choose what period you want to look up - either the past year, 5 year, 10 years or so? Will you look at this on a global basis, or choose one continent at a time?
We can keep a running total of those killed or maimed by terrorist attacks carried out by those calling themselves Muslims and those killed/maimed by say US or UK weapons (whether in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc).
I'd call the shooting down of an Iranian airliner to be an act of terrorism - but I'm a bit fickle that way - so you may not wish to go that back further in history ;)
We can then compare the numbers of victims of Terrorist attacks - distinguishing the numbers killed by 'Muslim converts' with those killed/plotted by 'non-Muslims'.
It would also be instructive to list the numbers of victims by religion - and see whether your contention that Muslims should kill non-Muslims is being translated to reality, or whether it is Muslims who are the victims of terrorist killings.

Cool - start the count - but let me know if you are going to count 'suspects' as well as actual terrorist attacks, and let me know how you'll count the Israeli terrorist sympathisers (such as those who venerate Baruch Goldstein) etc.
And whilst we are talking about figures - we should also look at ratios. What proportion of those who become Muslim each year end up carrying out terrorist attacks - and lets say compare that with the numbers of new colonialists in occupied Palestine (aka 'settlers') who go on to carry out attacks against civilians. We have Israeli groups who count the terror attacks against Palestinian civilians and you have estimates of colonialist numbers - so dividing the two to get your ratio shouldn't be too difficult.
(We can then examine whether the violent verses of the OT should be condemned because of the religously motivated terror attacks perpetrated by the supporters of Baruch Goldstein's actions).
I look forward to your findings.

Let's keep the wondering until after we've counted the numbers of bodies, shall we?
Anyway - you wanted to count the bodies - I'm calling your bluff. Over to you (and please don't ask me to do your counting for you - I'll just check your figures and point out the bodies you're missing - just let me know over what period you want to count the civilian victims of violent deaths)
Cheers,
Shafique freefromrats
That's one perspective.

He said that one shouldn't fault Islam for suicide bombings, etc. He didn't mention whether or not Islam calls for warfare against unbelievers and spreading Islamic law by force.

I agreed with the good professor that Islam is incapable of conforming to the values and ethics of the modern world.
I guess the quote shows that Kung agrees with me and disagrees with you.

I can't help but detect a little bit of changing the subject on your part. This thread is about determining whether or not the verses I quoted on another thread were taken out of context.
I maintain that they were not and that the Koran has more verses talking about hell for unbelievers, fighting unprovoked battles against unbelievers and passages which speak negatively about unbelievers (calling non-Muslims 'the most vile of created beings') than the other way around.
I guess the only way to settle this, is to post all of the verses which talk about warfare against unbelievers and then post all the verses which prohibit unprovoked battles. But then again, that is not my job. I'm only pointing out the numerous violent passages in the Koran.

Happy to look at *all* of the passages and not just the ones Muslims in the West will post in order to falsely portray Islam as a 'peaceful' religion.

Done. We can also compare the number of unbelievers the early Christians killed with the number of unbelievers the early Muslims murdered (tens of thousands).
Perhaps you'll claim this is an unfair comparison because the early Christians did not hold any political power. Well, last I checked, Muslims these days (thankfully) do not hold that much political power themselves. But hey, why should we let consistency get in the way of a good argument?

You'll have to take that up with Rudeboy, who said that just because someone's name is Muhammad, that does not mean they are devout Muslims (or something to that extent).
I am careful to distinguish between the actions of secular governments, such as Turkey and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, from the actions of religious fanatics in Al Qaeda in Iraq.
It's interesting that you want to conflate the US government with a Christian theocracy. I would say that speaks of your lack of knowledge of the United States, but my guess is that you would simply have a hard time finding attacks from genuine Christian fanatic groups unlike what you would have with Islamic terror groups (who are influenced by the texts and teachings of Islam).

Unfortunately, we are talking of religious terrorism. I am impressed with your ability to shamelessly move your own goal posts.

As I said, done. I am not aware of converts to other religions who have carried out terror attacks, so I'll leave the (extremely) heavy lifting for you.

For this, I don't necessarily believe in innocent until proven guilty. When you have confessions of Muslim converts who say they wanted to kill thousands of Australian civilians, I'll take their word for it even if they have not been sentenced yet.

Impressive! You've managed to yet again move your own goal posts. Sorry, I don't think settlers are converts. But I'm happy to document attacks against unbelievers in the Philippines and Thailand (just two regions where Islamic insurgencies are fighting). We can also see if the non Muslims killed in Thailand and the Philippines by Islamist terrorists receive the same amount of media coverage as Palestinians (or Israelis) do around the world (or even this forum). rudeboy
lets just cut it short rats.
can you tell me where in the Quran does it say that Islam should take over other religions VIOLENTLY? That it must kill all other non-muslims to take over their religion. Or where does it say that a sword or a gun should be pointed to a non-muslims so that they convert to Islam. can you do that?
yeh i know you will quote from surah 61:9 where Islam must "take over" other religions. What do you understand by the words "take over"? Misery Called Life :happy1: freefromrats
Rudeboy made a claim I took violent passages I posted on another thread out of context. I started a new thread to see which passages were taken out of context.

Nope.

Sure he was.

False analogies can be entertaining. Bin Laden doe not have a modern mechanized military and industrialized state at his command that he can use to flatten Muslim and non-Muslim nations.
All al Qaeda has are recruits from across the world (including a number of converts to Islam) who must build their bombs in their own flats, homes and mosques.

Great, why don't we start with verse 61.009 of the Koran and you can explain why the passage translated by Pickthall is wrong.

Yes, I agree. Muslims get their burkas in a wad any time someone comes along and points out the misogynist, violent and reactionary passages in the Koran. Maybe everyone should sing kumbaya and never criticize (or debate) the supposedly backwards teachings of Islam, Christianity or Gnosticism? Would that make you feel better?
But then again, I have not criticized Islam in this thread (that I know of). I've simply asked rudeboy to tell me which passages of the Koran have been taken out of context (something rudeboy does not seem to want to do). freefromrats
I will do no such thing. First, because your questions are straw men and deliberately pointed (I've never claimed the Koran says what you're asking me to find). Secondly, because this thread is about the verses from the Koran that you have said I had taken out of context or posted partially.
Now, going back on topic... shafique [quote="freefromrats"]
(I've never claimed the Koran says what you're asking me to find). Secondly, because this thread is about the verses from the Koran that you have said I had taken out of context or posted partially.



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