ebonics
since shafique refuses to research into this matter
and since i gathered you're pretty well versed in these matters from the way you make your statements.
can you confirm the validity of the hadith to do with adult breastfeeding.
or in arabic "al reda'a f'el kebar"
i will outline what sparked this discussion, and i want your honest un-biased opinion.
shafique already made his stance known that he dismisses this hadith as fake, even though the azhar itself, said it is accurate......... which leaves me pondering what sort of logic is he using, or under what authority is he to decide if it is a fake or not - but we already crossed that path as an enigma that will not be explained..
Quote:
Is it acceptable in Islam for a woman to breast-feed a man then stay with him legally in one room?
The answer to this question makes the difference between true Muslims who faithfully follow the footsteps of Mohammed and the hypocrites who modify their religion to follow their desires. Allah described them as such in the Quran: Q.28: 50… they only follow their own desires, and who is more astray than one who follow his own desires…
The issue of breast-feeding men is currently a hot topic in Egypt and has been the focus of the media in many Middle Eastern countries. It all started when Dr. Izzat Attya who is the head of the department of Hadith in Al-Azhar, which is the world’s most prestigious Islamic University, issued a fatwa, or religious opinion. The fatwa declared that, it is legitimate for a working Muslim woman to breast-feed her male colleague to avoid the sin of ‘khulwa’ (staying with a stranger in one room). Similar fatwas had been issued in the past by many sheikhs in many Middle-Eastern countries, but this is the first time it comes from a high level academic of Al-Azhar.
A Modern Islamic problem, an old solution
The Problem:
Dr. Attya noticed that Muslim women frequently work with men in the same offices, with the inevitable possibility that a woman may find herself sitting alone in the same room with one or more of her male colleagues, which, in Islam, is a grave sin. Some of these women are deeply religious, but they need to work. Both the state and the society are forcing these women to sin without doing anything about it.
The erudite scholar of Al-Azhar, Dr. Attya was asked about the previous fatwas quoting a sahih (= authentic) hadith. His answer was that the quoted hadith is certainly accurate and, if necessary, a Muslim woman is allowed to follow the example set by the prophet.
We may have different opinions about Al-Azhar and the integrity or political affiliation of its staff, but there is one thing about this institute that remains beyond doubt: its sheikhs (ulama) are second to none in their knowledge about sunni Islam. All other Islamic universities in the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia, rely on Al-Azhar for academic support. It can be argued that Dr. Izzat Attya is probably the most learned man in the speciality the science of ahadith. He knows every nuance about the texts of the ahadith, their isnad (chain of narrators) and their degree of accuracy. When he says something about ahadith, we better believe him.
The Solution:
Dr. Attya proposed an Islamic solution that came directly from the prophet. In the early days of Islam, Muslim women faced a similar problem and the prophet fixed it immediately.
It all started when Mohammed decided to marry Zainab, the beautiful wife of Zaid, his adopted son, which was impossible under the prevailing laws of Arabia. Mohammed, however, always had under his sleeve the magical trick called the Quran. He ‘revealed’ some verses renouncing the practice of adoption as nonsense and ordered Zaid to divorce his wife, thereby clearing the way for Mohammed to marry her. The plan worked well for Mohammed but created problems for many others.
Abu Huthayfa and his wife Sahla, had an adopted son (a freed slave) called Salim, who used to work and live in the house freely. As Salim was like a son to her, Sahla used to rely on him to help in the housework. She could stay with him in the same room without having to cover herself from his looks. When Mohammed cancelled the principle of adoption, Salim became a stranger in the house and could no longer be alone with Sahla, Abu Huthayfa’s wife. The Lady complained to Mohammed who immediately provided her with a genius solution- he asked her to breast-feed Salim, after which she would again be allowed to keep him as a son with her in the house. She said: ‘but Salim is a man and has a beard!’ Mohammed smiled to her and said ‘I know that’.
Mohammed’s wife, Aysha, was very happy to hear the news because she also had problems in allowing men in her house. The new ruling came handy particularly after Mohammed’s death because Aysha needed more flexibility in meeting and talking to men about Islam. Aysha was a strong advocate of this practice; she encouraged the daughters of her sisters and the daughters of her brethren to breast-feed those men whom she (Aysha) wished to allow in her home.
Dr. Attya’s vision is that women are better off making use of this authorization given by Mohammed and breast-feed their male colleagues to avoid the sin of ‘khulwa’ (staying alone with a stranger).
The Muslims Response:
Muslims are divided about this fatwa;
Minority of them (true Muslims) completely agree with the fatwa for an obvious reason; it has a precedence in Islam that happened during the time of Mohammed. The issue of whether this is morally acceptable or not has no relevance, simply because Allah’s wish overrides man’s wish. Allah says in the Quran
Q.33:36. It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision…
Some of these Muslims attempted to soften the impact of the fatwa on the shocked Muslim community in various ways. Some expressed reservations about the way the fatwa was presented to the public while others tried to explain that breast-feeding doesn’t necessarily imply direct contact between a man and a woman. They suggested that a woman could collect her milk in a cup and offer it to a male colleague! This group of Muslims try to reform Islam in their own way, in doing so they forget that women do not always produce milk.
With anger and embarrassment, the majority of Muslims, however, reject the fatwa. They claim that Mohammed could have never allowed something like that. Needless to say this group of Muslims never heard of the above story before. I do not blame them, because, as a Muslim I myself heard of it only in my later years. Even then, I assumed the hadith was a weak one, which is why I never considered using it as a credible proof of the falsity of Islam.
But the hadith is a credible one, and has been reported by sahih books like Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah. Moreover, this hadith has been thoroughly investigated by a number of highly revered Islamic scholars like Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Hazm and Al Albani. Denying a hadith with such strength would be like denying the existence of main Islamic events like fasting and prayers.
The aftermath;
Quote:
Following the media and public outrage, Al-Azhar had to explain its position to Millions of Muslims and Dr. Attya was forced to withdraw his fatwa. In his statement, he said he only echoed the opinions expressed by early highly regarded Islamic scholars, but after extensive consultations with Muslim scholars, he now believed the permission to breast feed an adult was an exception given only to Abu Huthayfa’s wife to solve an exceptional problem, but not to other Muslims. The statement fails to explain what was so exceptional about Abu Huthayfa’s case and why Aysha encouraged it.
Such a U-turn relieved the Islamic community and the Arab media because, as they put it, the fatwa did not blend well with the high morality and logic known to be associated with Islam. It is laughable that Muslims find it difficult to believe that Mohammed women to breast feed men, but have no problem at all in believing him when he claimed he spent the night with Allah and all his prophets and toured the whole universe. Strange indeed is the Islamic mindset!!
Ref:
&Rec=1798
&Rec=3379
&Rec=3378
&Rec=3381
&Rec=3382
ebonics
and before anyone brings zakariya boutros into this, please be reminded... that the person that sparked this, is an imam from al azhar..
shafique
Now that it has a thread of its own, I too would be interested in the research into these Hadith.
The writer of the article calls the Quran 'a magical trick' that Muhammad, pbuh, kept up his sleeve. He also states he used to be a Muslim.
I also note that he alleges that Aisha was a strong advocate of the practice and encouraged Muslim ladies to breast feed adult strangers so they could legally be alone with them.
This is all based on authentic hadith as authenticated by Al Azhar University in Cairo and the view of a great Hadith scholar, Dr Attya.
I will be honest here - ebonics raising this issue was the first time I came across this. I fell about laughing so loudly when I first read it, I did not think of doing any research into this (yes, I am closed minded sometimes :) )
(I did look to see whether any of the links were to the equivalent of the National Enquirer - but it appears that ebonics is sincere here)
Now that we have the links here - I too would be interested in someone else's analysis.
BTW - is it now common practice in offices in Egypt for women to offer their breast milk to male colleagues? :)
Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
OK - I could not resist a quick Google.
Interestingly, the top article that came out was:
,21985,21805283-663,00.html
It says that the Dr Attya was suspended by the august institution of Al Azar university and that he recanted his fatwa. It is a bit strange that the article quoted by ebonics failed to mention these facts.
Hmm.
So, should we believe Al Azar which is "which is the world’s most prestigious Islamic University" and should we believe Dr Attya's current position that the fatwa was wrong?
I thought it would be harder to refute ebonics... shame really. Google 1, ebonics 0.
:wink:
cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
OK - I could not resist a quick Google.
Interestingly, the top article that came out was:
,21985,21805283-663,00.html
It says that the Dr Attya was suspended by the august institution of Al Azar university and that he recanted his fatwa. It is a bit strange that the article quoted by ebonics failed to mention these facts.
Hmm.
So, should we believe Al Azar which is "which is the world’s most prestigious Islamic University" and should we believe Dr Attya's current position that the fatwa was wrong?
I thought it would be harder to refute ebonics... shame really. Google 1, ebonics 0.
:wink:
cheers,
Shafique
unfortunatly shafique, he was suspended due to the outrage he caused, and for airing it out.... not because it is in fact a false haidth.
i believe the term used was, it is not considered acceptable now..... but the agreeance was, it is a valid hadith.
spoonman
I find it a great practice through corporate environments. Hope it reaches UAE
spoonman
there are now two threads about this, lets all reply in this one.
shafique
ebonics - this article has more detail:
&Area=ia&ID=IA35507
It details Dr Attiya's retraction and also documents why the Hadith/Fatwa goes against the Quran:
Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Asaker, who studies Muslim tradition, denied the validity of the hadith on which the fatwa is based, claiming it is nonsense and criticized the publication of Abd Al-Qadir's book which regarded it as valid. [7] In an interview withAl-Watani Al-Yawm, he said: "Would Dr. Abd Al-Mahdi [Abd Al-Qadr] agree [to let] his wife, daughter, sister or even his mother breastfeed a grown man - whether a stranger or a family member? Would the Muslim scholars [want people] to say that their wives breastfeed any man who comes along?
Asaker argued that the hadiths of Muslim tradition, even those that appear [in reliable compilations like those of] Al-Bukhari and Muslim, are invalid if they contradict what is said in the Koran, which states: "Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole years; [that is] for those who wish to complete the [full period of] suckling [Koran 2:233]." Asaker argued that after this period ends, breastfeeding is forbidden, and added that the story of Salem is a legend spread by the enemies of Islam with the aim of discrediting Aisha, to whom the hadith is attributed. "It is inconceivable," he concluded, " that Islam, which commands the believing [men and women] to lower their eyes [in modesty], should permit a strange man to place his mouth on the breast of a married woman and suckle from [it] ." [8
Shame - I was hoping for some interesting comments on this topic. Common sense prevailed on this one.
Thanks for the laugh though ebonics - it does show that stupidity is not unknown in universities!
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
ebonics - this article has more detail:
&Area=ia&ID=IA35507
It details Dr Attiya's retraction and also documents why the Hadith/Fatwa goes against the Quran.
Shame - I was hoping for some interesting comments on this topic.
Cheers,
Shafique
but it does admit, that the hadith is in fact ACCURATE it is not made up- and that muhammad did say such words....... going against his own quran, according to you..
i actually find it baffling, that i used that same link to air it out a few months back, but you dismissed it as rubbish, now you're trying to use the same link against me??????
ebonics
for the kids playing at home:
- ebonics wrote:
something that caused the azhar to suspend the cleric in question...
more news reports of the incident
excerpt from that if you are too lazy to read the whole thing - you tend to get lazier and lazier on me shafique, its starting to really get to me.
Quote:
He said: "The religious ruling that appears in the Prophet's conduct [Sunna] confirms that breastfeeding allows a man and a woman to be together in private, even if they are not family and if the woman did not nurse the man in his infancy, before he was weaned - providing that their being together serves some purpose, religious or secular...
"Being together in private means being in a room with the door closed, so that nobody can see them... A man and a woman who are not family members are not permitted [to do this], because it raises suspicions and doubts. A man and a woman who are alone together are not [necessarily] having sex, but this possibility exists, and breastfeeding provides a solution to this problem... I also insist that the breastfeeding relationship be officially documented in writing... The contract will state that this woman has suckled this man... After this, the woman may remove her hijab and expose her hair in the man's [presence]...
Quote:
"The adult must suckle directly from the [woman's] breast... [This according to a hadith attributed to Aisha, wife of the Prophet's Muhammad], which tells of Salem [the adopted son of Abu Hudheifa] who was breastfed by Abu-Hudheifa's wife when he was already a grown man with a beard, by the Prophet's order... Other methods, such as [transferring] the milk to a container, are [less desirable]...
Quote:
Muslim Brotherhood MPs: This is an Erroneous Fatwa
The issue of breastfeeding adults was brought up for debate in the Egyptian parliament. Sabri Khalaf Allah from Muslim Brotherhood bloc in the parliament told the Al-Arabiyya TV website that some 50 MPs had discussed the issue, had expressed concern over the fact that the fatwa had been published in the media, but had refrained from submitting a parliamentary question in order to avoid creating too big an uproar.
[color=red]Dr. Sayyid Askar, a Muslim Brotherhood MP and former member of the Academy of Islamic Studies, said that the hadith on which the fatwa is based is indeed authentic and valid[/color] , but that the accepted view among Muslim scholars is that it refers to a specific case and cannot be applied to other cases. [color=red]Therefore, he concluded, Dr. Attiya's fatwa is an erroneous fatwa that goes against the consensus. "In our modern society," he added, "it makes no sense to talk of breastfeeding adults." [/color][6]
Quote:
Intellectuals Object: The Koran Forbids the Breastfeeding of Adults
other reports of the story
now the question is - if it was indeed a valid and authentic hadith.......... islam teaches you to mirror muhammad's life and live by his teachings, how is this then, an exception?
if you've got any doubt that this is authentic
again
here is the link for you to verify yourself
(in arabic)
&Rec=3378
this was my exact post, was it not?
1 Dubai Jobs .com The First Place to Find a Job in Dubai
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
but it does admit, that the hadith is in fact ACCURATE it is not made up- and that muhammad did say such words....... going against his own quran, according to you..
i actually find it baffling, that i used that same link to air it out a few months back, but you dismissed it as rubbish, now you're trying to use the same link against me??????
Please see my post above.
I still stand by my initial reaction that the hadith is rubbish. Some scholars agree with me - in fact it quotes a Dr Askar saying the hadith is rubbish. Hmm - is this the same Dr Askar in your article?
:)
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
ebonics - this article has more detail:
&Area=ia&ID=IA35507
It details Dr Attiya's retraction and also documents why the Hadith/Fatwa goes against the Quran:
[i]
Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Asaker, who studies Muslim tradition, denied the validity of the hadith on which the fatwa is based, claiming it is nonsense and criticized the publication of Abd Al-Qadir's book which regarded it as valid. [7]
keyword, claiming....
exactly, how rock solid is your religion shafique? when someone can just claim and counter claim, willy nilly?
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
keyword, claiming....
A guy makes a stupid fatwa, a guy retracts stupid fatwa. Scholars call fatwa stupid.
Stupid affair widely reported.
Stupid fatwa goes against Quran and common sense. Fatwa issuer told to stop being stupid.
Whole affair shows why Hadith should be treated with caution and not blindly believed (and why people should not blindly follow 'scholars' either!) - which is what the Al-Azhar University now says (that all fatwas should not be anti-logic - which raises the questions about how many fatwas were illogical?)
Thanks ebonics. This has cheered me up no end.
(BTW - not calling you stupid, I think all you did was cut and paste an article, had you not done so, today would have been a less happy day).
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
regarding the doctor askar
Quote:
Dr. Sayyid Askar, a Muslim Brotherhood MP and former member of the Academy of Islamic Studies, said that the hadith on which the fatwa is based is indeed authentic and valid, but that the accepted view among Muslim scholars is that it refers to a specific case and cannot be applied to other cases. Therefore, he concluded, Dr. Attiya's fatwa is an erroneous fatwa that goes against the consensus. "In our modern society," he added, "it makes no sense to talk of breastfeeding adults." [6]
this is a quote from the above link i posted.....
of course i agree with him, but if it doesnt make sense now, did it make sense when muhammad was roaming the earth??? it specifically says
IS INDEED AUTHENTIC AND VALID
but common sense disapproves it, well it doesnt take einstien to figure that one out
ebonics
i may add that the collection is from sahih muslim, out of all sahihs..
ill let people research just how accurate is the compilation of sahih muslim's hadiths - and make their mind up.
i appreciate you trying to bum-rush my argument shafique, but unfortunatly so far you're not doing a great job in dismissing it as false.
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
- ebonics wrote:
keyword, claiming....
A guy makes a stupid fatwa, a guy retracts stupid fatwa. Scholars call fatwa stupid.
may i correct you
a guy makes stupid fatwa following the suna of an accurate and valid hadith
public outrage takes place
azhar admits its a valid hadith, but calls the fatwa stupid and irrelevant in today's society
guy retracts stupid fatwa that follows the accurate and valid hadith
scholars call fatwa stupid - calling the hadith of muhammad in effect, stupid
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
i may add that the collection is from sahih muslim, out of all sahihs..
ill let people research just how accurate is the compilation of sahih muslim's hadiths - and make their mind up.
i appreciate you trying to bum-rush my argument shafique, but unfortunatly so far you're not doing a great job in dismissing it as false.
Ok - fair enough, sorry I am failing to dismiss your arguments.
Let's recap what I have always said - Hadith is rubbish. At least one scholar agrees with me:
Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Asaker, who studies Muslim tradition, denied the validity of the hadith on which the fatwa is based, claiming it is nonsense and criticized the publication of Abd Al-Qadir's book which regarded it as valid. [7]
So that is two of us. And as one them is me - we are both right! :lol:
But seriously, I'm happy to hear what others say - after all, all I have done is apply some common sense to the initial article and Google search a couple of reports.
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
- ebonics wrote:
i may add that the collection is from sahih muslim, out of all sahihs..
ill let people research just how accurate is the compilation of sahih muslim's hadiths - and make their mind up.
i appreciate you trying to bum-rush my argument shafique, but unfortunatly so far you're not doing a great job in dismissing it as false.
Ok - fair enough, sorry I am failing to dismiss your arguments.
Let's recap what I have always said - Hadith is rubbish. At least one scholar agrees with me:
Dr. Abd Al-Fatah Asaker, who studies Muslim tradition, denied the validity of the hadith on which the fatwa is based, claiming it is nonsense and criticized the publication of Abd Al-Qadir's book which regarded it as valid. [7]
So that is two of us. And as one them is me - we are both right! :lol:
But seriously, I'm happy to hear what others say - after all, all I have done is apply some common sense to the initial article and Google search a couple of reports.
Cheers,
Shafique
im glad we can see this in a light hearted manner - now i await habib's input, as per the subject..
of course would love to hear from the usual suspects that frequent these traps.
freza
titillating thread! (sorry, couldn't resist saying this..)
I read about this breast feeding thingy on the USC Islamic Texts Compendium time ago and was baffled by some of the texts there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that it's a tradition (to some) that kids even if not relatives but breast fed by the same wet nurse become something like relatives? Milk relatives?
Anyway, I'm still at a loss for something like this:
Quote:
- Volume 7, Book 62, Number 166:
Narrated 'Aisha:
My foster uncle came and asked permission (to enter) but I refused to admit him till I asked Allah's Apostle about that. He said, "He is your uncle, so allow him to come in." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have been suckled by a woman and not by a man." Allah's Apostle said, "He is your uncle, so let him enter upon you." And that happened after the order of Al-Hijab (compulsory veiling) was revealed. All things which become unlawful because of blood relations are unlawful because of the corresponding foster suckling relations.
(the compulsory veil reference is also interesting, no?)
For more suckling writings:
shafique
Told you there were wierd hadith out there!
:lol:
People do invent the strangest things - like having us believe that a 'son of God' would curse a fig tree for not having any fruit (when it was not fig season)! (Sorry, could not resist that one).
But seriously, many hadith relating to Aisha need to be examined carefully - she was a hate figure amongst some Muslims and there are many defamatory hadith about her.
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
But seriously, many hadith relating to Aisha need to be examined carefully - she was a hate figure amongst some Muslims and there are many defamatory hadith about her.
Cheers,
Shafique
so is it safe to assume that the last hadith you quoted of aisha isnt accurate? i raise the question again, what exactly governs this?
ebonics
on the above topic of compulsory hijab raised by freza
an old muslim politician in jordan made the claim that the hijab was not what we know as the hijab today.... but merely a "hajeb" or a curtain, where the woman stands behind, when talking to a stranger...
he continued to say that that hijab, isnt the farida of muslims, but if they chose to cover up, it is the "nekab" which covers the woman's entire face..
he continued after that saying that the nekab can be removed off the face and back on as women enter different areas (something like the practice of local emiratee women here)
he did heavily, criticise, muslim women who merely wear the hijab, and the other form of nikab, saying that it is not according to shar'ia. and it was man made imposed rules by mulla's and imams - but have no accuracy thereof.
of course, my knowledge of the topic is in no place to falsify or confirm the above... but would like to hear comments about the above point of view.
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
- shafique wrote:
But seriously, many hadith relating to Aisha need to be examined carefully - she was a hate figure amongst some Muslims and there are many defamatory hadith about her.
Cheers,
Shafique
so is it safe to assume that the last hadith you quoted of aisha isnt accurate? i raise the question again, what exactly governs this?
To establish authenticity, I'd say you need to look at:
Was the hadith I quoted about Aisha or by her? And was it contradicting the Quran or not? Do scholars question the authenticity of the hadith I quoted?
I believe the hadith was authentic and have no reason to doubt its authenticity. (It said the Prophet, pbuh, spent nights in prayer despite knowing that his sins had been forgiven.)
Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
on the above topic of compulsory hijab raised by freza
an old muslim politician in jordan made the claim that the hijab was not what we know as the hijab today.... but merely a "hajeb" or a curtain, where the woman stands behind, when talking to a stranger...
he continued to say that that hijab, isnt the farida of muslims, but if they chose to cover up, it is the "nekab" which covers the woman's entire face..
he continued after that saying that the nekab can be removed off the face and back on as women enter different areas (something like the practice of local emiratee women here)
he did heavily, criticise, muslim women who merely wear the hijab, and the other form of nikab, saying that it is not according to shar'ia. and it was man made imposed rules by mulla's and imams - but have no accuracy thereof.
of course, my knowledge of the topic is in no place to falsify or confirm the above... but would like to hear comments about the above point of view.
ebonics - I would agree with the arguments made by the man.
Muslim women can choose the extent to which they cover up - over and above the rules laid down in the Quran. The same rules apply to men - but women have to cover up more (men aren't required to cover their hair, but all are to cover up their bodies). Women are also instructed to not bring attention to themselves by other means (eg wearing ankle jewellery that attracts attention when one walks).
There is the general separation of se.x.es. or purdah (literally 'curtain'), and there are the dress rules when men and women are in the same company.
To this day, cultural norms apply to the levels of covering up - African, Malaysian, Iranian, Indonesian etc Muslim women all have different styles of Muslim dress and generally do not cover their faces. In the Mid East, the culture is such that covering the face was/is more prevalent - in the desert for example, men and women covered their faces as a precaution against sand.
So, I do agree with what you say the guy said - but I would not go so far as to criticise those who choose to cover up (as long as it is their choice).
Cheers,
Shafique
Flying Dutchman
- freza wrote:
but I believe that it's a tradition (to some) that kids even if not relatives but breast fed by the same wet nurse become something like relatives?
I know this to be a Jewish tradition, donot know about Islam. In Jewish tradition there is the so called menateket (the female giver) who breast feads multiple babies. As far as I know this is still practised. I donot know whether they are considered relatives afterwards...
My opinion about the hadith...I am too shocked and maybe because of this I cannot believe it. It does appear to me as focusing too much on a very discussable hadith iot discredit Aisha and/or Mohammed. I cannot help laughing when picturing this is common day corporate life. I did read about this before on the list of the 5 most ridiculous fatwa´s. There is another one on there against Pokemon. Always wanted to ask, is it bcs of this fatwa that I cannot find Pokemon cards in Dubai or am I looking in the worng places (don´t answer if this is too much OT, but I am interested)?
ebonics
ill retract my comment regarding the criticising
he criticised people who claim it is a FAREEDA for the hejab. - ie it is a must.
shafique
- Flying Dutchman wrote:
- freza wrote:
but I believe that it's a tradition (to some) that kids even if not relatives but breast fed by the same wet nurse become something like relatives?
I know this to be a Jewish tradition, donot know about Islam. In Jewish tradition there is the so called menateket (the female giver) who breast feads multiple babies. As far as I know this is still practised. I donot know whether they are considered relatives afterwards...
My opinion about the hadith...I am too shocked and maybe because of this I cannot believe it. It does appear to me as focusing too much on a very discussable hadith iot discredit Aisha and/or Mohammed. I cannot help laughing when picturing this is common day corporate life. I did read about this before on the list of the 5 most ridiculous fatwa´s. There is another one on there against Pokemon. Always wanted to ask, is it bcs of this fatwa that I cannot find Pokemon cards in Dubai or am I looking in the worng places (don´t answer if this is too much OT, but I am interested)?
Firstly - wet nurses were used extensively in Arabia at the time. Muhammad, pbuh, himself had a wet nurse.
The Quran lists those who are permissable for marriage (and it excludes sisters, mothers etc - shockingly, it was not unknown for a man to marry his mother, so it had to be banned!)
Wet nurses were also excluded from the list of permissable brides - they were treated as surrogate mothers, and so on maturity the men could be regarded as part of the family of the wet nurse and would not be subject to the rules of segregation that applied to non-family members.
As for the fatwa on pokemon cards - sorry haven't heard about that! My nephews/cousins certainly hadn't and had loads of them back when they were all the rage (I'm a bit too old for pokemon - I did collect Pannini football stickers and had Star Wars stickers back in the day though!)
What was the problem with Pokemon, dare I ask? :)
Cheers,
Shafique
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
ill retract my comment regarding the criticising
he criticised people who claim it is a FAREEDA for the hejab. - ie it is a must.
Then, I agree with what he said. Top man!
Cheers,
Shafique
reviewer
I think the fatwa about Pokemon started in Saudi Arabia, as has been reported here in this article;
Quote:
- March 26, 2001
Web posted at: 5:54 AM EST (1054 GMT)
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- Pokemon games and cards have been banned under an Islamic edict issued by Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority.
The fatwa by Saudi Arabia's Higher Committee for Scientific Research and Islamic Law said Pokemon "possessed the minds" of Saudi children, promoted Zionism and involved gambling which is banned in Islam.
The edict stated that the video game and cards featuring the Pokemon characters have symbols including "the Star of David, which everyone knows is connected to international Zionism and is Israel's national emblem."
Habib
Al-Hamdulillah.
The procedures of legislation in Islamic Jurisprudence, in order, is as follow:
1- The Holy Qur'an
2- Prophetic Sunnah
3- Consensus
4- Companions' statements
5- Analogy
6- Aprobation
Plus: Tradition of the Madinah community (for Imam Malik)
With this in mind, we assure the Hadith's authenticity, and take it as understood by the Companions [ra] and the Consensus of Scholars or the majority thereof. Such is the methodology of our good predecessors.
The wives of the Messenger [saw] have a unanimous agreement that the case was peculiar with Salim, and have denied the generalization. As such, was the ruling of the overwhelming majority of scholars.
And Allah knows best.
shafique
I'm still with the scholar that does not think the Hadith about Salim was valid - as it contradicts the Quran.
It appears to me that Al-Azhar had to try and save face when the head of Hadith made the fatwa on the basis that the Hadith is valid - and they could not come out and say the obvious - that the Hadith is not valid and false.
cheers,
Shafique
Habib
Assalamu alaikum bro. Shafique,
There are rules and procedures to follow when judging any Hadith. This Hadith is (Agreed Upon) by al-Bukhari and Muslim, and was also reported by Imam Malik, an-Nasaa'i and Ahmad. The consensus on what deduction can be taken from it, is that it was a peculiar case for Salim.
Further more, the Hadith does not suggest in any form, shape or manner, that the woman pull out her breast and breast-feed the man. Nor was that the case with Salim [ra], rather, it means, that he was given a milk to consume by a relative of her. This, the scholars say, was peculiar for Salim as a grown adult. Otherwise, suckling that alienate prohibition is for children two years of age or below. This is what the overwhelming majority of scholars are holding as a ruling.
And Allah knows best.
shafique
I guess I am with the minority of scholars then.
:)
Also, my understanding is that Bukhari and Muslim allowed Hadith with strong string of narrations, but that even these contained false Hadith - for example people may have mis-remembered.
The over-riding criterion for me is the Hadith which says that if any Hadith contradicts the Quran, we should reject it.
Edit - the Hadith I was thinking of is:
The Holy Prophet is reported to have said, "If you find anything foolish ascribed to me, discard it. For it is not from me".
(I don't have the reference though)
Edit 2:
Note the last point - Hadith should be checked against Sunnah and Quran.
cheers,
Shafique
freza
- shafique wrote:
Told you there were wierd hadith out there!
the weirder the better!
- shafique wrote:
People do invent the strangest things - like having us believe that a 'son of God' would curse a fig tree for not having any fruit (when it was not fig season)! (Sorry, could not resist that one).
Jesus did and said some weird things! When I was a kid I was puzzled by things like "the word became flesh" but we grow up we learn what some words truly mean, just like what the fig parable is really about (disappointment in Israel). :-)
- shafique wrote:
But seriously, many hadith relating to Aisha need to be examined carefully - she was a hate figure amongst some Muslims and there are many defamatory hadith about her.
OK, the Texts on the USC Muslim Text Compendium are part of a project that is scholarly, supported by an important university and if you notice it is actually pro-Islamic in nature. So I don't know why it's being implied that these are not serious Hadiths. This project actually states that Hadiths that go against what Mohammad said are not to be heeded. So one can assume that the Hadiths they collected are acceptable and trustworthy and don't go against the Quran.
Re: earlier quote - they seem to state that marrying milk relatives is a no-no (even though they're not related). But marrying cousins and uncles is ok?
more interesting stuff:
ebonics
- Habib wrote:
The wives of the Messenger [saw] have a unanimous agreement that the case was peculiar with Salim, and have denied the generalization. As such, was the ruling of the overwhelming majority of scholars.
do you know that some people and sects practice this today? (in very backward areas)
i fail to see how this applies to only 1 person, you cant just be a prophet and go out and say things like that to apply to 1 person..
thats as rediculous as saying you cant masturbate, but you can if its going to stop you from zina...
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
- Habib wrote:
The wives of the Messenger [saw] have a unanimous agreement that the case was peculiar with Salim, and have denied the generalization. As such, was the ruling of the overwhelming majority of scholars.
do you know that some people and sects practice this today? (in very backward areas)
i fail to see how this applies to only 1 person, you cant just be a prophet and go out and say things like that to apply to 1 person..
thats as rediculous as saying you cant masturbate, but you can if its going to stop you from zina...
ebonics - I totally agree with you. It is ridiculous to believe that a Messenger of God would say such things.
However, people do tend to believe the weirdest things.
Does this practice really occur in some areas? Wow.
But for the record, I don't believe there are true Hadith saying what you quoted. I'm sure that there are hadith out there saying this, but I would not consider them true.
It is interesting though that the core of Islam is the Quran and its teachings. The majority of Hadith are in total accordance with the Quran. Yet all the attacks at Islam are against the peripheral writings/teachings/practices.
This gives me confidence that the core teachings of Islam are what it claims to be - from God, eternal and universal. And above all the teachings are unnassailable.
If the best criticisms one can come up with is that Muhammad, pbuh, was an epileptic paedophile who just got lucky when he dictated a coherent book that laid down a religion that is philosophically sound, made prophecies that came true, only performed minor miracles and that by the way he may have said to some person to breastfeed an adult ... well, I am encouraged.
Why am I encouraged? Well, if you look back at how all true prophets were treated, you will see a pattern and Muhammad, pbuh, fits this pattern 100% (that the opponents come up with trumped up charges against their prophethood)
But hey - that is me. Jews are quite certain they are right to reject Jesus - Christians are similarly quite certain they are right to reject Muhammad, pbuh.
Christians could be wrong. Muslims could be wrong.
God knows. :)
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
But for the record, I don't believe these are true Hadith.
Cheers,
Shafique
habib does, so does sahih muslim, and the azhar.
thats good enough for me :)
i should quote freza asking you do you ever step out and look in... because in this case, you're most definatly in denial.
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
- shafique wrote:
But for the record, I don't believe these are true Hadith.
Cheers,
Shafique
habib does, so does sahih muslim, and the azhar.
thats good enough for me :)
i should quote freza asking you do you ever step out and look in... because in this case, you're most definatly in denial.
Habib says that a minority of scholars agree with me. So I'm not alone in my denial.
Do you know the story of the Emperor's New Clothes?
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
who doesnt.
Quote:
Christians could be wrong. Muslims could be wrong.
answer to that is simple, i follow and believe in the one that is alive here & now, and beat death twice... the one that lived a pure life from start to finish.
the other is dead, in a grave, and hardly free of sin.
choice was never hard.
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
who doesnt.
Quote:
Christians could be wrong. Muslims could be wrong.
answer to that is simple, i follow and believe in the one that is alive here & now, and beat death twice... the one that lived a pure life from start to finish.
the other is dead, in a grave, and hardly free of sin.
choice was never hard.
And yet you abandoned Christianity and don't believe in following all the teachings of the Coptic Church.
As I said, Christians are convinced they are right and are as convinced of the truth of Jesus as the Jews are that Jesus is a false Messiah.
Cheers,
Shafique
ebonics
- shafique wrote:
And yet you abandoned Christianity and don't believe in following all the teachings of the Coptic Church.
that part, is totally, none of your concern or business.
i already stated i believe in jesus, but not religion as we know it today.
shafique
- ebonics wrote:
- shafique wrote:
And yet you abandoned Christianity and don't believe in following all the teachings of the Coptic Church.
that part, is totally, none of your concern or business.
i already stated i believe in jesus, but not religion as we know it today.
I don't know you from Adam - but you volunteered the information and I thought it had relevance in this context (that you don't believe in following the Bible, but think Christians are correct)
Cheers,
Shafique