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For eh - Baruch Goldstein


shafique There you go again, talking about the Quran in a thread about a Jewish Terrorist that you refuse to condemn.
Have you seen anyone about this obsession? ;)
Is it really so hard to not come out and admit that you can't condemn Goldstein as a religious terrorist? As the Pope says:
Qui tacet consentiret’ (i.e. Silence gives consent).
Cheers,
Shafique
shafique It looks like 'eh' has been avoiding the politics section as the question posed there remains unanswered.
The question is simple - can he confirm that he condemns Baruch Goldstein as a religously based terrorist who was a sane, American born doctor and Israeli army officer who, whilst in uniform, walked into a historical religous site and shot up a room full of worshippers - just because of Goldstein's religous faith (a distorted view of Judaism, imo).
There are those who venerate what this colonialist terrorist did, and 'eh' has thus far refused to condemn explicitly this guy as a terrorist.
It is not for want of asking:

Perhaps we'll get an answer this time round?
Cheers,
Shafique shafique Disapointed, but not surprised that 'eh' is studiously avoiding answering direct questions. hmmm. Cheers, Shafique event horizon If Baruch Goldstein was driven by religion, then it is unfortunate that he took a page from Islam which teaches adherents that martyrdom comes to those who 'kill [unbelievers] and are killed' waging offensive jihad warfare against unbelievers (9:29) because they are unbelievers. shafique Ah at least you've acknowledged the question - but you still couldn't bring yourself to acknowledge that Goldstein was a religously motivated terrorist and that you condemn him for his actions.
But, you also seem to be implying that his actions on Purim in 1994 stem from the Quran - ROFLMAO !!! - nice one.
:lol:
Wow - it was worth the wait. :roll:
You may be unaware, but his supporters think he is a saint and his tombstone has the following on it:

So this devoted servant of the 'Jewish religion' according to his supporters was actually a follower of the Quran! 'eh' - I've said it before, and I'll say it again - what a strange world you must live in! :)
Cheers,
Shafique shafique bump (again) event horizon Shafique, I have no problem admitting that support for Middle East jihad terrorists, such as Ahmad Dakamseh, a sane, religiously based terrorist and Jordanian soldier who, whilst dressed in army uniform, gunned down seven 11 year old school girls - just because of his religious faith, is high in Jordan.
Recently, a number of elite Jordanian politicians, journalists and human rights activists (!) called for his release after he had only served 12 years in prison for his cold blooded murders:

Of course, there is the fact that a majority of Jordanians venerate other Jihad terrorists, such as Osama bin Laden and a large minority venerate former Jihad terrorist Abu Musab Zarqawi, even after his involvement in the martyrdom operations that struck the Jordanian capital and seemingly targeted a Palestinian wedding!
As I said, I have no problem condemning these two men even if a plurality of Muslims the world over venerate these individuals and their victims are more likely to be Muslim than non-Muslim - I can only think how popular Zarqawi and Bin Laden would be right now if their organizations only targeted non-Muslim civilians instead of the almost weekly bombings taking place in Muslim countries, such as Iraq and Pakistan, in which Muslims are typically the victims of their Jihad campaign. shafique Ahh - I thought you were going to continue with your comedy theme of Goldstein being influenced by the Quran. But - I couldn't see either a condemnation of Goldstein, or indeed a reference to Goldstein in your reply. Did you mistakenly post in this thread? This thread is about whether you 'eh' acknowledge and condemn Goldstein for what he is - if you want to talk about other terrorists, happy to do so in other threads. Are you a supporter of Goldstein - is that it? Cheers, Shafique shafique bump shafique Now that 'eh' has finally agreed that Israeli collective punishments etc as listed by Amnesty International etc are to be condemned by him (as I condemn them too) - I guess we may eventually get him to clarify whether he supports Goldstein or condemns him as the religiously motivated terrorist he was. C'mon eh - you can do it... Cheers, Shafique

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event horizon If Israel blocked all supplies of food to Gaza and/or prevented the civilians of Gaza from accessing any food - then that should be condemned just as much as Muhammad's blockade of the Banu Qaynuqa tribe. shafique Huh? Goldstein wasn't involved in any blockades - he was a colonialist in occupied Palestine, where he committed his religiously motivated massacre on a Jewish festival. Why the confusion eh-oh? C'mon, you've made a good step in admitting that Israeli war crimes/crimes against humanity, as described by Amnesty, are worthy of condemnation - so why not also condemn the religious terrorist Goldstein?? Cheers, Shafique event horizon
Cool. So that means Goldstein was a better person than Muhammad, who was involved in blockades. Goldstein never owned/sold slaves and never enslaved free men and women.
I would say that Goldstein, in that particular area, was also morally superior than Muhammad - who is supposedly an example for all humanity for all times.
So, we have two areas where Goldstein's ethics and morals trumped those of Muhammad's. shafique So now you are extolling the moral virtues of Goldstein. Interesting response when I ask whether you condemn him or not. I had you down for a Christian - perhaps I was mistaken and you're just a serial cut and paste junkie? ;) Cheers, Shafique event horizon I'm saying that in some areas, Goldstein was a better person than Muhammad. I'm not sure that's 'extolling' anyone's moral virtues - in part because Muhammad was not a very moral man himself. In any event, I'm happy to join you in your condemnation of Muhammad's war crimes, since Muhammad, not Goldstein, is held as an exemplar for humanity by over one billion people. shafique Still no condemnation of Goldstein? Fascinating how when discussing the actions of a Jewish terrorist, you first say he was influenced by the Quran (still cracks me up), then want to compare him to Muhammad, pbuh. Why not compare him to Moses - surely Moses was more wicked as he apparently killed women, children and livestock after they were defeated? Cheers, Shafique event horizon False analogies can be fun, but Moses is not considered an exemplar for all humanity, Muhammad is. Anyway, still waiting for you to tell me if destroying crops to force civilians to surrender is collective punishment. shafique What has destroying crops got to do with Goldstein the Jewish terrorist and the fact you haven't condemned him? Are you really having trouble with thread headings? So, you believe comparing a Jewish terrorist with Muhammad, pbuh, is a valid comparison, but comparing him against Moses (who killed captive women and children according to the Bible) is a 'false analogy'. Hmm. Cheers, Shafique event horizon I totally condemn anyone who puts the Koran's instructions to wage warfare against unbelievers into action. It's unfortunate that many people reading the Koran will actually believe they will become immediate martyrs if they kill and are killed whilst fighting unbelievers.
shafique bump for eh - I'm hoping he will find the humanity to condemn the religious terrorism of Goldstein and acknowledge him for what he was.
The silence is a bit worrying - and appears that Islamophobia is not the only failing of eh-oh, but may also extend to supporting the killing of Muslim worshippers by Israeli Army Officers in cold blood, in the name of Judaism.
There is a saying, often attributed to Pope Bonifacious VIII which states ‘Qui tacet consentiret’ (i.e. Silence gives consent).
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon Perhaps that quote was in response to Muhammad's war crimes that receive no condemnation by Muslims? shafique
Perhaps it was, but in this forum it is you that is silent about the condemnation of a Jewish Terrorist.
I've even condemned the imagined crimes that you've brought up, let alone real crimes - so I guess you can't argue the Pope's words apply to moi!
Will you condemn him, or is your line still that he read the Quran?
Cheers,
Shafique shafique bump for eh-oh, don't want this question to be swamped by the other posts. Cheers, Shafique shafique still waiting (patiently) shafique :?: event horizon Maybe in your wait you can find those Bible passages/primary sources from the first century which corroborate your claim that the apostles were weary of Paul for preaching to Gentiles? shafique When asked if eh-oh condemns or condones the Jewish terrorist, we either get 'he was a tacit Muslim' or 'I condemn Muslim terrorists'.

It appears the Islamophobia runs deep - to the extent where the killing of Muslim worshippers by a devout Israeli Army Officer in the name of religion cannot be condemned by eh-oh. It exposes the hypocrisy of the posts which purport to be about terrorism, but now are clearly about Islamophobic views. I had no problem in condemning any terrorist act - even imagined ones attributed to early Muslims.
The contrast is clear now, I hope.
As Jesus said:

Matt 7:5
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon Shafique, I have no problem posting about incidents of Christian terrorists in your own thread with the same title. Just yesterday, one Christian suicide bomber blew himself up at a UN building in Pakistan and a Christian fundie detonated himself at a funeral procession in Iraq. shafique As I said, your silence when it comes to condemning an Israeli religous terrorist Army Officer speaks volumes. I agree that when the 'terrorists' are ex-Hindus (and Indian) or Arab Christians you do concede that they are Christian terrorists - which makes the refusal to condemn this American Doctor turned Israeli Jewish terrorist all the more intriguing. You could end the speculation by just condemning him - yet you seem to be happy to be lumped in with those who venerate him (they too refuse to condemn him). Cheers, Shafique shafique Another gentle reminder that we're still waiting for eh-oh's condemnation. Cheers, Shafique shafique Given the recent references to Christian terrorists, a bump so that we don't forget this question about a Jewish terrorist. There are some people who venerate the actions of Baruch Goldstein - the American Doctor who emigrated to occupied Palestine (Hebron) and joined the Israeli army. As an officer in the army (a reservist), he carried out a massacre of Muslim worshippers at a holy site on a Jewish holy day of Purim - and carried it out in uniform and using Israeli army weapons. His supporters continue to view him as a saint. I've just asked whether eh joins me in condemning Goldstein as a religously motivated terrorist and confirm that he is not one of those who celebrate Goldstein's actions - which were based on his Biblical interpretations. Thus far we've had silence (I'm discounting the attempts at humour where eh said Goldstein was influenced by the Quran) But let's see, perhaps now we'll get an acknowledgement he was a religiously motivated terrorist and that we should condemn him and his supporters for using the Bible to justify the killings of Muslims. Cheers, Shafique shafique bump for eh - given the flurry of posts yesterday, he may have missed this. event horizon I wonder who has more supporters - Baruch Goldstein or Osama bin Laden??? shafique Do you support Osama bin Laden as well as Goldstein? :shock: event horizon I don't believe Osama bin Laden needs any more supporters - he already has hundreds of millions of fans. shafique So is it only Jewish Terrorists that you refuse to condemn? Cheers, Shafique shafique A reminder for eh that we await his clarification on why he refused to condemn Goldstein as a religiously motivated terrorist. Cheers, Shafique shafique I'm hopeful that eh will finally come out one of these days and tell us why he chooses to not condemn Goldstein as a religious terrorist who killed innocents because of his interpretation of the Bible. Perhaps he'll clarify whether he is one of those who venerates Goldstein's actions in occupied Palestine (Hebron). Cheers, Shafique event horizon I agree you believe he (Baruch Goldstein) was a religiously motivated terrorist. It is unfortunate that there are those who are actually motivated by religion to wage warfare against unbelievers and believe that they will attain paradise if they kill unbelievers and die in the process. Such as Khalid bin Waleed, a companion of prophet Muhammad who was nicknamed 'the sword of Allah' by the prophet himself and who massacred thousands of POWs by beheading as a fulfillment he made to Allah if he won a battle or Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who was motivated by the commands in the Koran and examples in the prophetic sunnah to behead his victims - which is something he later acknowledged to justify his actions. shafique Thanks, I've made clear what I base my belief on - the web sites of the supporters of Baruch Goldstein and all the news reports of the time which detail that the religious American Doctor and Israeli citizen committed his actions in the name of Judaism.
I see that you continue to refuse to condemn him as a religious terrorist.
Can you perhaps just confirm whether you are one of those who venerate his actions?
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon It's unfortunate that there are many terrorist attacks carried out in the middle east. shafique It is fascinating to see your continual to refuse to condemn this white Jewish terrorist who killed in the name of religion.
You even now refuse to confirm whether you are one of those who celebrate his actions.
(They also argue that it is 'unfortunate' he had to kill the muslim worshippers - as they should leave occupied Palestine).
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon It's unfortunate that people in the Middle East have suffered so much from Middle Eastern terrorists/religious warriors. shafique So you continue to refuse to condemn a white American Jewish terrorist who killed in the name of the Bible. Is it because you think only Muslims or Arabs can be terrorists, or are you just one who celebrates when Muslims are killed by people who believe in Goldstein's view of the Bible? Cheers, Shafique event horizon Have no problem condemning terrorists who carry out acts of violence because of the perpetual commands to do so in their holy scriptures. shafique Why do you find it so hard to denounce Goldstein as a Western religious terrorist who killed because of his Biblical beliefs? (That was rhetorical - we know the reason you side with those who venerate him and similarly refuse to denounce him) Cheers, Shafique dee7o
I have stopped answering people about Islam when I feel they are just people who have nothing to do and in fact seem to have issues with their own beliefs. It is pretty lame discussing some else's faith when you have no idea who you are. However, I do wish to comment on your above comment. "Moses is not considered an exemplar for all humanity". Where exactly did u get this from? What is the difference between being an exemplar for the so called "chosen nation" and being an exemplar for all humanity.
If you are Jewish then he is the founder of your faith and the teacher of your life's belief. If you are Christian then he is the bringer of your first testament and the man whose life is painfully detailed in holy scripture. Muslims view him as a messenger of God and therefore an exemplary figure. So if he is not considered an exemplar for humanity then who is? You? Or my neighbor the cross-eyed camel-porn producer? shafique You make some good points. I had to start this thread when eh refused to condemn Goldstein as a religious terrorist who based his actions on the Bible - and yet insisted that Muslim terrorists are basing their actions on his misinterpretations of the Quran. What most grown up debaters realise is that all scripture has been misused to justify acts not condoned by the founders of their religions - with Goldstein being just one example. The grown ups don't hesitate in recognising this fact and condemn Goldstein as just another example of religious terrorists. What is fascinating is why eh refuses to condemn this white guy who killed Muslims and based his actions on the Bible. Cheers, Shafique event horizon I have no problem condemning middle eastern terrorists who actually kill unbelievers based on the texts and teachings of their religion. Khalid ibn Walid, a war criminal who executed thousands of POWs by beheading, is one example of a terrorist that I am more than happy to condemn (and a Muslim that others have chosen to apologize for). shafique I understand you don't have problems condemning bombings carried out by Middle Easterners - it appears only the killings carried out by White Jewish people that you can't condemn. Any other traits you'd like to share with us? Anyway, what Goldstein shows is that the Bible can be used to justify the killings of innocents and that these acts are celebrated and venerated by some (it appears that you are among these people who refuse to condemn him). Therefore we can conclude that the Bible is used by people like you to celebrate the killings of innocent worshippers, but that it would be stupid of people to condemn the whole of Judaism or Christianity because of the actions of Goldstein and his supporters and those like you who refuse to condemn him. It is as stupid as those who think the Quran condones the killings of all Jews and Christians. Cheers, Shafique dee7o
I really want to understand something. As far as I know Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc etc are not some modern cults with 2000 followers. They are thousands of years old and have millions if not billions of followers. Now, since you; forgive me but; an absolute unknown in human history have made it your personal mission to post absolutely everything on this forum that you can think of to undermine one of these religions, do you believe that you are cleverer than all those "fools" that follow such religions. These religions have had followers that went on to do great things to advance human history. Who are you to state that they are all following a regime of 1- murderers or 2- morons. You don't seem to acknowledge that out of the thousands of faiths that emerged, these few survived and gathered such huge followings because there were and are strong elements of truth in them. How can that not make you a little apprehensive about the way you are constantly attacking them?
I really hope that I can one day comprehend this line of thinking. To openly and incessantly condemn such an obvious aspect of a faith you must be so convinced of your opinion that you do not see in that belief anything worthwhile. So are you collectively smarter than those billions? If you are, you might want to work on your posts because they are really masking your apparently almost god-like IQ level.



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