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Emirates airliner 'centimetres' from disaster - SOLVED NOW


Anosh "An Emirates Airline jet came within centimetres of crashing at Melbourne airport last month when it barely cleared the 2.4-metre perimeter fence on takeoff". This is miserable situation. . Authorities should take an immediate action.
Bora Bora Apparently they did take action by having the two pilots resign. RobbyG Very weird case. If two pilots resign voluntarily that could mean they didn't follow Company procedures and kept the honor to themselves to save their careers. After speed V1, and aircraft normally rotates as it gained enough speed to become airborne. If those pilots used the entire runway for gaining speed, they were attempting to follow a zoomstart, which is a very nice move for an (ex) jetfighter pilot, but not so much for the aircraft / maintenance costs in the long run. The tail strike makes it even more weird than the situation already is. What in the hell were those pilots thinking!? And that for a respectable company like Emirates. Its really a faceloss if you ask me. Have you seen those strict requirements for accepting pilots? There were more people sleeping in the company at that time, if you ask me... Chocoholic I hate media reports like this, because it's all hearsay and allegedly, with comments by arm chair pilots who know nothing about flying commercial aircraft. The resignation of the two pilots is premature, if there was an issue with them, (under the influence etc) they would have been suspended pending an investigation. The aviation authority report has not been finalised or released as yet. That and only that, can tell you what actually happened. Sounds more like a technical/engine fault with the aircraft more than pilot error. maximusprime
Says the armchair pilot Bora Bora
So that's to say that the reports in the newspapers are wrong. It was clearly stated that the pilots resigned. There was no mention of them being suspended. Chocoholic That is a newspaper report, not hard fact, look how many times the word 'claimed' 'claims', are used throughout the piece. Having worked as a journo myself, you use these words and 'allegedly' when you don't have cold, hard facts. As I said it's based on hearsay, and nothing more. The only thing that will document exactly what happened will be the aviation report, and you won't get to see what that says, unless Emirates allow it to be published. Armchair pilot? Possibly, but my father has worked for Emirates for over ten years, so at least I'll find out what happened, and I might or might not tell you! Neh! Chocoholic BB, do you actually READ anything properly! I never said they were suspended, I never disputed the fact they resigned, I said their resignation was 'premature'!!! Normally in these situations, air crew are suspended from flying until the investigation is complete, or unless there is good reason for immediate termination! In this case there seems to be none, so I don't know why they resigned. Bora Bora So your assessment is based on what your father surmised? Chocoholic
Well actually both my parents fly and I was taking lessons, but I've run out of cash at the moment. One again, judging before knowing the facts.

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Bora Bora Chocs it is way too early in the morning to get into it with you. And stop with the !!!!!!! I get what you are saying without the !!!!!!! Chocoholic Okay you wanna know what happened? Just spoke to daddyo, here it is, nothing very interesting to be honest. The two ops pilots, who look after take off and landing, got their weight figures wrong, so obviously as they're going down the runway, the plane is alot heavier than they calculated. They are at V1 stage, so have no option but to try and get the thing in the air, as it's too late to abort the take off. They go for a hard rotation, which scrapes the tail on the runway - tail sections are reinforced and all aircraft are tested for this on the production line and test flights, so no danger to the aircraft. But obviously because of the things the plane hit on its attempt to get in the air, they had no choice but to dump the fuel and make an emergency landing back at the airport. The ops pilots resigned, otherwise they would have been sacked, and there will be an investigation as to why two experience pilots could get it so wrong. Happy now?! Told you it wasn't very interesting. Same thing happened 5 years ago. So it was indeed human error. This is not hearsay or what is claimed to have happened. This is actually what happened. All sorts of incidents happen all the time, you just never get to hear about them. quatroporte
thanks for the explanation.. it does make sense to me...
my brother and sister works for emirates too... interesting to know your parents work for emirates...
a question raised!!! how old are you??? you are here all this time with your parents? :P I thought you are in the age of my parents... a granny perhaps??? :D Chocoholic Haha my folks have been here for 10 years. Actually my father is just retiring, he's paid his dues big time. My brother and I keep following my parents around the world, they can't get away from us - although they try their best! We're a very nomadic tribe. Next stop Australia! Well maybe, perfectly happy in DXB at the moment. I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't know people who work for Emirates. Some of their stories are hilarious! Never piss of the cabin crew - EVER!!!! Anosh Mostly i listen the comments - I HATE MEDIA - MEDIA LEADING THE WRONG DIRECTION - FAKE NEWS and Bla Bla Bla. A simple question. How to get the hard facts, how to get remain updated, how to know whats happening around the world. We cannot go and find personally if some one attacking on the countries and cannot personally find how many causalities etc. Only the news sources teach what is happening. Now to accept or denied is your own choice. You people have to say i don't believe on a particular NEWS, not a blaming on entire media. After all all fashion, glamor news, styles etc we are also getting from MEDIA.... :) Bora Bora
I have never ever had an incident with a member of any cabin crew. I respect these people because they do what I never could do. If you are nice to them they will go out of their way to assist people. Sometimes you get a grumpy one, but having people tear you apart in so many directions (Excuse me, Get me, I want), I can understand it so if I need something I will ask another attendant or get up myself and go to the galley. I did get a grumpy one and asked her if I had done something wrong and she apologized and adjusted her attitude.
We all have bad days and they are entitled to have one as well. I can't stand those people who travel who think that the cabin crew is there to "serve" only them. Also, never mess with anyone who has control over your food!! and that includes waiters. Chocoholic No, but when and article says, 'claimed' 'claims' or 'allegedly' this means they do not have the actual facts, as I have given you. Therefore it's speculatory and only what they know at the time, and should not be read as hard fact. Therefore when journalists use these terms, they do not know for sure and there is always an air of doubt. That's how the media works. uaekid doesn't the black box determine the cause of such things ? Speedhump
I know an ex-Emirates cabin crew girl. It's 100 percent true about what they do to the food of obnoxious passengers (she said you do have to be REALLY bad to them though...).
Chocoholic No, the black box is only used if an aircraft crashes. It records all the flight data and communications from the aircraft, to air traffic control and other aircraft. In this case, it was obvious where the fault was and was dealt with. Chocoholic
Haha no well I have alot of friends that are crew and pilots, and the stories they tell are hilarious. If you get bad passengers, then they can really get their own back, and who can blame them. It's a tough and challenging job and I have full respect for anyone that does it.
Watch out for the eyedrops! macjul tail scratching is not normal and has a great potential for total loss of a plane . It was sheer luck that the plane made it despite hitting objects while trying to get airborne. it was a new Airbus series with powerful engines, which normally can get speed and uplift rapidly under most circumstances. They are computer controlled but need to be fed with the correct information before take off. The pilots realized their mistakes or their responsibility and preferred to take a graceful exit to have an opportunity to be hired by another airline or for an air freight company. As everybody knows, airline business has to have a safety first philosophy and Emirates is no exception in this regard and will not take a second chance. Btw they only need to read the computer info to get an idea what caused the incident happened. no need to to open the black box. Bora Bora
Eyedrops?? What exactly do they do with them? And what is the effect? Speedhump put them in your coffee and wait RobbyG Didn't change my coffee just yet. Should I still drink it? ;) Speedhump
Don't stray too far from white porcelain if you do..... RobbyG My head starts turning...what should I do... Speedhump it's when you start turning inside out you know the drops are working.... Bora Bora You have both been very helpful as usual. (Did I just sound like Chocs?!!!!!) RobbyG When will I start puking? Anyone? I just farted more blood than I could ever imagine. Who should I sue :lol: Chocs or Emirates? ;) Speedhump Tell Bora not to worry about puking, it's the other end that you need to keep a tight rein on.... damn, did we just trash ANOTHER thread....? oh, no, it was chocs that started talking about cabin crew being evil....... :glasses7: Bora Bora Better the thread than me. You can get away with that only once!!! RobbyG
Sorry if you stood in my way. 8) Speedhump
I took the 'queue here' sign down already...it's you that's missing out hun... :D :D Bora Bora
Well next time I'll let you take the lead. RobbyG
With blood coming out my back end... Only if you realllly want to hon :lol: 8) :lol: Bora Bora
Wear your adult nappies. RobbyG Only if the stewardesses keep drippin' my coffee. Then I'll think about wearing my nappies. ;) Ruskie I love Emirates, planning to fly with them out to Dubai. Business Class :) Can't wait. Bora Bora
Riiiiiiight!!!! Are you holding it over your head now??? Red Chief
How could they make a huge discrepancy? This hypothesis is Ok for a freighter where payload could differ very much case to case but it's a passenger aircraft... RobbyG
Nooooo, absolutely unacceptable Chief.
As you might know, I myself am aeronautical engineer and worked with combi and full freighters for DHL. Every pallet and cargo container is measured (weight and volume) and put in a computer system that provides the cargo planning department with all data for determining the best load configuration for that particular aircraft type.
The system keeps in account the limits of the aircraft flight envelope for save operational performance and stability in all weather circumstances. This results in a load sheet that is signed by the responsible ground engineer/authority and passed on to the captain for his final check for approval.
The weight and balance systems of today always indicate whether are load configuration is acceptable for that aircraft. These systems don't accept wrong planning unless you select the wrong aircraft type for planning!
But the captain remains the one that has the final decision and check of fuel load, taxi fuel load, cargo payload, passenger load, etc. etc. They have the final responsibility for a safe departure. A technical failure however is not their responsibility. Thats why technicians and engineers are just as important for a company as its pilots. Unfortunately not always (financially) recognised of their importance. The engineers have the signoff capability for technical flight safety. Both parties can be hold accountable for neglect or irresponsible behaviour under law. Thats why they get paid the reasonable ;) amount of money to stay awake while doing their jobs. There are lives at stake.
Having said that. Flying is the safest way of travel because of the rules and regulations involved for safety. If something happens its either a human error (most common) or bad engineering (design/maintenance error).
People (human factor) remain the weakest link in most cases. Red Chief So, what is your point for passenger aircraft where load is much more stable? Even you and me can estimate the weight with error of measurement 10%... RobbyG
10 percent error is the difference between life and dead Chief!
If you have 40 pallet positions on a B747, with an average weight of 3 tons, thats 120 tons of cargo. If you plan that 10% (12 tons) in the nose of that aircraft type (B747-400) then you have a real balance problem relatively to the CG (centre of gravity) on the wing position. It can result in an uncontrollable aicraft or a nose that doesn't wanna come up while rotating!
That probably didn't happen here, since it was able to take off and land again without crashing, but it might be of a lesser error that influence the flight characteristics of the A340 aircraft type.
Its all speculation until the investigation (internal, since it was no accident) is completed. And we will never know about the cause of it, unless Chocs family tell us on this forum what the conclusions were, eventually. ;)
edit: to answer your question;
Passenger aircraft have slightly more margins since the weight of the passenger is not measured. They take an average of your body weight. That gives an error, but can be handled by modern load planning systems. They spread the baggageload and the belly ld3 containers near the wing positions (CG) and a few obese people more or less is normally not an issue. But if you put 100 obese all next to eachother in the back of an aircraft, you also can induce a tailslide :lol: Anosh
Cannot hold myself... Well BB.. :D :D :D Bora Bora
Anosh, know your place newbie. You are at the end of the line and its all coming at YOU!!! Anosh
You have a good mind. RedKite So an Emirates plane nearly crashed ? The tail hit the ground....which it bashed!! The weight was much more, So the tail hit the floor, Now the pilots' careers are just dashed!! olivertwisted Well nice to see a bit of Aircraft Banter... Also nice to know a lot of people exchange info like this.. Emirates would not be happy seein the details of this leaked out as I think theyve been quite tight lipped about it. A340-500 reg A6-ERG.. pics are all over the net chk out Its sad though cos Ive certified that aircraft after quite a few checks .... remains to see whats profitable repair and risk a crash 15 years from now or claim insurance and get rid of one plane. I think logically theyd prefer the insurance cos theyve got brand new planes comin in every month and theyve cut lots of flights now..courtesy recession .. Chocoholic erm you think? They've already grounded two of the A380's due to low passenger loads, and they have another 50 or so on order. Abu Dhabi has had to bail out Emirates, they'll tell you that AD took a 51% share, but really it's now 100% owned by Abu Dhabi. They refuse to reduce the rates to be competitive, I wonder how long it can last. RobbyG
Chocs, whats the deal with not wanting to lower their rates to be competitive?
That wouldn't be a faceloss in Dubai, or would it? Speedhump
Schools still say they have waiting lists, health/leisure clubs still say they have waiting lists. Their prices are all higher this year too. Luxury cars also seem not to have come down.
Either not so many people are leaving as the panic suggested, or Dubai is still in massive denial, or the Gulf isn't in the bad state it has been said....
Place your bets, the wheel will stop spinning soon..... RobbyG
Dubai cargo statistics were up this first quarter in comparison with first quarter of 2008. So its seems nothing is wrong...
Where our Sjarjah airport guy!? Speedhump
That's been my opinion. Which is why, when anyone has been asking me 'should I stay or should I go', I've been saying if you have 6 months living expenses in the bank and can still afford to bail after that, hang on and see.
If the mood lifts in Q3 of this year the people who stayed will be the ones to benefit. RobbyG
Was it you that worked in the cargo industry at Sjarjah Airport?
I must be getting senile.... Speedhump haha noooo..... :D :D my income for the last 3 months is back to 2007 levels, which let's face it, isn't too bad. last year was an incredible year. I thought it was too good to last!! RobbyG
Are you self employed SH>? Cause why is your income variable? Chocoholic Is that outgoing or incoming cargo though? RobbyG
total throughput. Both import and export. Speedhump
Practically. I do have an umbrella organization over me but I'm gone upriver like Colonel Kurtz (Apocalypse Now), they just leave me alone and I send the money :D RobbyG
Can you tell me what it is you do exactly? Speedhump nah ;) Bora Bora Currently he's learning to speak phillipino for his dinner date with Puppypoop. RobbyG
And his other 'hormone treat'...Miss WJade :lol: Bora Bora
:3some: Speedhump damn, I'm going to be pretty tuckered out eh.... RobbyG Ellen Whinnett April 12, 2009 12:00am THE Emirates jet that dragged its tail along Melbourne Airport last month was centimetres from crashing, with 225 passengers on board. Several aviation sources have described the accident on March 20 as the closest thing to a major aviation disaster Australia has ever experienced and say the passengers and crew are lucky to be alive. "It was as close as we have ever come to a major aviation catastrophe in Australia," one senior official said. The plane -- carrying up to 215,000 litres of highly flammable aviation fuel -- was less than 70cm off the ground when it crashed through lights almost 200m from the end of the runway. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has placed it in the most serious category of aircraft mishap available to it -- an accident, rather than an incident. An ATSB investigation update shows the accident was labelled a "significant event" by investigators, who also listed damage to the aircraft as "substantial". "During the take-off the aircraft's tail scraped the runway surface. Subsequently smoke was observed in the cabin," the report says. A Sunday Herald Sun investigation has confirmed that the flight -- EK407 to Dubai -- almost failed to become airborne and barely made it over the airport perimeter fence, half a kilometre away. Damage to the $220 million plane is so severe that the airline is considering writing it off rather than repairing it. The fully-laden Airbus A340-500 was believed to have been travelling about 280km/h when it reached the end of the runway without becoming airborne. At the last minute, the two pilots "rotated" the plane -- or pulled its nose up into a steep ascent -- causing its tail to crash into the end of the runway. Despite its steep climb, the plane was still so low that it wiped out strobe lights that were only 70cm high and positioned 170m from the end of the runway. It then took out an antenna, believed to be near a small building, before barely making it over the 2.44m wire perimeter fence. THE French-built aircraft remains in the John Holland aircraft hangar at Melbourne Airport, a temporary patch placed across the damage under its tail. Passenger Roman Korobitson, who was heading to Moscow via Dubai, said the plane took too long to get off the ground. "I would imagine we were pretty close to the end of the line when it took off," he said. His wife, Irina, saw several passengers become "extremely frightened" by noise and smoke. The Sunday Herald Sun investigation can reveal: THE plane used all of the 3657m-long runway 16, but failed to become airborne in time to take off. THE pilots pulled the aircraft up steeply at the end of the runway, a manoeuvre known as "rotating", causing the tail to drag along the ground. THE pilots -- who are not Australians -- were interviewed by investigators the day after the crash, but have now left Australia and have resigned from Emirates. THE possibility that an error was made while inputting data to the plane's computers has been identified by investigators as a line of inquiry. INVESTIGATORS are also examining whether the plane took off at full thrust, or whether reduced thrust, which can reduce wear on the aircraft and cut noise, was being used. A spokeswoman for Emirates said: "Emirates cannot comment on the investigation as it is still underway. "However, we can confirm that the aircraft involved in the incident remains at Melbourne Airport and has been moved to a new location within the airport to assist in these continuing investigations." Airbus A340-500s are designed for long-haul flights and to withstand heavy cargo, fuel and passenger loads. They also have reinforcement to protect against the possibility of a tail-strike, which are extremely rare in Australia. However the force on the accident on March 20 is understood to have damaged the tail-strike protection and caused significant structural damage to the aircraft. THE Australian Transport Safety Bureau said it expected to release its preliminary report by the end of April. A spokesman for the ATSB said all crew, including the two pilots, had been interviewed in Melbourne the day after the accident. The ATSB is understood to have seized data relating to the accident, including the "black box" flight recorder and video of the accident shot on cameras that monitor Melbourne Airport's runways. Runway 16 is a north-south runway and EK407 was taking off to the south, towards the suburb of Keilor, about 10.30pm, when the accident happened. The pilots were able to climb out over Port Phillip Bay, where they circled to dump fuel. They made an emergency landing at Melbourne Airport about 11.15pm and passengers reported smoke in the cabin. 'WE WERE all terrified and the crew were terrified, but no one would tell us what had happened," one British tourist said. Aviation officials said the pilots were not required to pass Australian pilot training standards. However, they are required to reach international standards and Emirates' pilot training and competency standards are almost identical to those in Australia, safety officials said. Aside from damaging three strobe lights, EK407 also took out a navigation antenna owned and operated by air traffic controllers Airservices Australia. The antenna is thought to be about 180cm high and is positioned 350m from the end of runway 16. Aviation expert Dick Smith said something had gone badly wrong. "It's the closest thing to a major aviation accident in Australia for years," he said. "The people (passengers) are incredibly lucky, it was an overrun where the plane didn't get airborne." Mr Smith said Emirates was a "very good airline" and it was strange the pilots had resigned immediately after the accident. "Emirates' standards are very high and they have a lot of Australian pilots," he said. "What I'm startled by is that there hasn't been a more immediate announcement. We should get some urgent advice from the ATSB. This is one of the most serious accidents you can imagine." A Melbourne Airport spokeswoman confirmed the size of the strobe lights, which are on a grassed area between the end of the runway and the perimeter fence, which runs alongside Operations Rd. "The height of the runway strobe lights is 0.7m above ground level," she said. ,21985,25320907-2862,00.html newdubai aircraft was over loaded,that was the cause and c g was not calculated properly and load was also not loaded properly as per my thinking Chocoholic That has already been confirmed. 'I' tol,d you that earlier on in the post. Anosh
A right reason for the incident. JBR_Resident ok.... maybe i should switch airline now... better yet.. travel on camels Speedhump
hop up uaekid guys ,you do realize that you gave this issue more time and effort than an actual plane accident that involve actual dead people !! don't tell me you are bashing our airline too LOL Speedhump Hope not, they're still my favourite airline especially with the new terminal :D uaekid
man, try alettihad business class .god it is heaven, I think they won the best business class world wide this year. The seats got massages and how big is flight attendance butts 8) Speedhump well I'm not a big booty kind of guy, but I'll give Etihad some thought :D Misery Called Life Dude I've always maintained...Etihad hostesses are a notch above the rest! They are huge though.....And what kinda salaries do they recieve...Its' showing in the parking lots....C class mercs, Mini's, Bmw's, Volvo's....These women roll real good! bonk
Banana? What sort of expert calls themself banana? Speedhump LOL, a bent one maybe? Speedhump Etihad, hmm, OK sounds worth a go. Any aviation insurance guys here, who might know what their safety record is like? I appreciate the irony of asking that question in this current thread, but I do like to know ;) RobbyG
Bashing Emirates? Hell no, in my eyes its the most classy airline in the world.
If its being bashed, it must be by the people that don't follow their own procedures.
We, or at least I, am an aviation enthusiast, so I monitor everything in this field. And Emirates happen to be based in Dubai and I guess I do believe this forum is about Dubai!!! BINGO
Wake up Kid. Were trying to follow up on an incident that potentially cuold have caused death and destruction in families across the globe. In aerospace its all about avoiding disaster instead of waiting for it to happen!
Lessons are to be learned from this incident so it can never happen again. Obviously the pilots have taken their own blame. They know they made mistakes and save their future careers by stepping aside.
Those guys have invested big money in their educations so they can't just get fired. That ruins their future career prospect as you never get a new job at a respectable airline ever again. The only option then, would be flying in Nigeria or Congo :wink: sage & onion
I have flown in both of the countries you mention on the national airlines and believe me, flying on Emirates cannot be mentioned in the same breath / page / year / decade / century. I hope I make myself clear. RobbyG
Sometimes I really wonder whether you are able to read an undertone of things that are being written. Please elaborate if its unclear, but that you don't do either....
I will explain myself, once again:
I'm saying that pilots just don't want to be fired by their respectable employer like Emirates. That would be futile for their future career prospects. They never would get a job at a respectable airlines like Emirates ever again. Therefore they resign and hold the honor to themselves.
If they didn't resign, they would get fired and then the only option left for those pilots is flying in countries like Nigeria or Congo (among some other African nations that are blacklisted in Europe and the US) as those pilots would only find a new job in these countries I mentioned.
I couldnt get more clear on this one. Did you understand it this time? No answer would suffice for yes, in your case. :wink: Speedhump It's like watching a car crash in slow motion.... :D RobbyG Hahah thats funny, because I just know you always catch my drift :lol: ;) Speedhump talking of drifts (and fast cars in the other thread) the video here is nice to watch on many levels: Speedhump going for dinner now, l8rz Anosh The case solved now ;) RobbyG
Thanks for that.
Pilot error, as expected. Chocoholic Yeah didn't I already tell you that like 2 weeks ago! Doubters! RobbyG
I even confirmed it, you Chocobird. Hand me a chocolate you selfish. :wink:



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