Desperate expatriate

ArifN Hi and Salaam I have really made up my mind to leave UK for a few years as totally tired of same routine and weather, Im 33 ,been in IT for 5 years, currently employed as Network Engineer,(Computer Maintenace of hardware ,software,general networking,Citrix,firewalls etc ) Just wanted to know from any similar expatriates ,how they found the total process over moving, I will have about Ł50,000 (325000 dhs) for an apartment,house. etc, would this be enough to buy something near the city?? also what are the status of jobs in IT , is Ł23-Ł27K per year achievable????? any advice,tips,jobs, much appreciated cheers in advance Any employers reading??? I will post CV if requested

aduberdu

ArifN wrote:
Hi and Salaam
I have really made up my mind to leave UK for a few years as totally tired of same routine and weather,

Im 33 ,been in IT for 5 years, currently employed as Network Engineer,(Computer Maintenace of hardware ,software,general networking,Citrix,firewalls etc )
Just wanted to know from any similar expatriates ,how they found the total process over moving,
I will have about Ł50,000 (325000 dhs) for an apartment,house. etc, would this be enough to buy something near the city??
also what are the status of jobs in IT , is Ł23-Ł27K per year achievable?????
any advice,tips,jobs, much appreciated
cheers in advance
Any employers reading??? I will post CV if requested

well with that amount of cash u cant buy a house........u can rent a house and live in it and regarding the salar, u gota a uk passport init....with that passport, expereince and qualifications u can get Ł23-Ł27K salary per year......u have to fight and comprimise a lil bit.........well why i asked abt ur passport is coz over here salary depends on the passport u r having wierd hey.....all i can say "Welcom To UAE"........cheers mate Chocoholic I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc. jag

Chocoholic wrote:
I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc.

Yep, not to mention shoddy construction and increasing maintenance fees every year... ArifN Thanks Guys , much appreciated yes do have British passport, been told that can get 1 bed apartmnt or studio flat for around that much ,near Internet city, and new developments etc is this bull?????? any places recommended to stay in for a few weeks, looking to come over in Feb, 3 weeks in a hotel is too expensive?? cheers again Kleine177

aduberdu wrote:
well why i asked abt ur passport is coz over here salary depends on the passport u r having wierd hey.....all i can say "Welcom To UAE"........cheers mate

I heard about that quite a bit, but could not get any closer information. Does a german or a swiss passport count better. Which passports are "banned"?
I hope it's okay, that I jump in that thread...
Thanks and have a good afternoon
Nic arniegang

Chocoholic wrote:
I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc.

I disagree Choc. the UAE and Dubai in particular has passed the point of "no return" regarding the unknowns and security regarding buying property as an investment.
This was being said by all the expats sat in the Dhow and Anchor in the JBH that week in May 2002 when the Shiek announced "freehold". Had they had the foresight to put a deposit down then, they would have made more on that purchase than they would have made salary in 3 years.
I walked into Emaar sales centre and paid 635,000 Dhs for my appartment in the marina back then. I could expect to sell it now for abound 900,000 Dhs.
Choc you need to remember and compare the property situation with say the UK market.
Purchasing a house etc in any country at the wrong time is the gamble. That even applies now in the UK, where prices are now static and the market looks set to tumble slightly. So people who bought here in say 2003/4 when the market was over inflated may find themselves in negative equity this year.
Besides which purchasing for investment is not the same as say a "holiday home". for investment then "thats the gamble". For a holdiay home "well i have a lovely appatment looking over the marina, the sea, Palm Island - i really dont care whether its worth 20 Dhs or 2,000,000Dhs because i am not going to sell it".
As regards "mainrenance fees or management charges". In our complex it has been set at 13Dhs per Sq Ft annually. For that i get proper 24 hour security, a pool, a huge gym, lifts and corridors that get cleaned at least twice a day and the cleanest car park in the universe.
In comparrison to some propery i own in the UK as an investment, on a small 650 sq foot rabbit hutch called a waterfront appartment i pay Ł1600 maint per year ( about 10,000). and what do i get for this - absolutely nothing!!
I think sometimes, and i mean no dis-respect Choc, expats living in Dubai start to loose touch after a few years, to what the real world is really like back home. Lets put it this way, a young couple on a combined average salary of Ł50,000 ( 300,000 Dhs) would struggle to be able to afford or purchase a home in any large cosmoploitan city in the UK. arniegang

ArifN wrote:
Hi and Salaam
I have really made up my mind to leave UK for a few years as totally tired of same routine and weather,

Im 33 ,been in IT for 5 years, currently employed as Network Engineer,(Computer Maintenace of hardware ,software,general networking,Citrix,firewalls etc )
Just wanted to know from any similar expatriates ,how they found the total process over moving,
I will have about Ł50,000 (325000 dhs) for an apartment,house. etc, would this be enough to buy something near the city??
also what are the status of jobs in IT , is Ł23-Ł27K per year
achievable?????
any advice,tips,jobs, much appreciated
cheers in advance
Any employers reading??? I will post CV if requested[/quote
Hi
Its probably best to follow your instincts. The sort of money you quote would just about buy you a studio/small 1 bed appt in new developments such as "International City" or the newer "sports city".
The problem you will find in Dubai however, is that none of these newer developments will be ready for another 2 years. There is very little "totally available " property for sale in Dubai at present. I bought my appt in May 2002 and only completed in April 2005. Properties that are available to buy and move into, currently carries huge premiums. (see my post above).
Another point is, unless you have "residency" technically you cannot rent a property in Dubai, so this will be a problem for you until find a job.
Good Luck arniegang Another thing that a lot of "expats" forget, is that someone like me who has puchased property in Dubai, can apply for Residency as an "investor". Now that i have done this i can live there without actually having to work :). Expats who dont own propery have to work to live there -ie "no work - no Dubai". jag
- arniegang wrote:
  - Chocoholic wrote:
    I wouldn't bother buying property here, to many unknowns and no security, resale values etc.
  I disagree Choc. the UAE and Dubai in particular has passed the point of "no return" regarding the unknowns and security regarding buying property as an investment.
  This was being said by all the expats sat in the Dhow and Anchor in the JBH that week in May 2002 when the Shiek announced "freehold". Had they had the foresight to put a deposit down then, they would have made more on that purchase than they would have made salary in 3 years.
  I walked into Emaar sales centre and paid 635,000 Dhs for my appartment in the marina back then. I could expect to sell it now for abound 900,000 Dhs.
  Choc you need to remember and compare the property situation with say the UK market.
  Purchasing a house etc in any country at the wrong time is the gamble. That even applies now in the UK, where prices are now static and the market looks set to tumble slightly. So people who bought here in say 2003/4 when the market was over inflated may find themselves in negative equity this year.
  Besides which purchasing for investment is not the same as say a "holiday home". for investment then "thats the gamble". For a holdiay home "well i have a lovely appatment looking over the marina, the sea, Palm Island - i really dont care whether its worth 20 Dhs or 2,000,000Dhs because i am not going to sell it".
  As regards "mainrenance fees or management charges". In our complex it has been set at 13Dhs per Sq Ft annually. For that i get proper 24 hour security, a pool, a huge gym, lifts and corridors that get cleaned at least twice a day and the cleanest car park in the universe.
  In comparrison to some propery i own in the UK as an investment, on a small 650 sq foot rabbit hutch called a waterfront appartment i pay Ł1600 maint per year ( about 10,000). and what do i get for this - absolutely nothing!!
  I think sometimes, and i mean no dis-respect Choc, expats living in Dubai start to loose touch after a few years, to what the real world is really like back home. Lets put it this way, a young couple on a combined average salary of Ł50,000 ( 300,000 Dhs) would struggle to be able to afford or purchase a home in any large cosmoploitan city in the UK.
True what you are saying, however, you do not own the property. It is just a leasehold, and I know many people in the know, and there will never be a law passed that gives you full rights to the property. The new proposed law will say yes the house is in your name BUT the land that it is built on wont. So what's the point in that??
I also know many architects that have designed many of the projects and they themselves say not to invest in these houses. They attest to the quality of construction being done very cheaply and fast to save money, and they say in 5-6 years all these houses will have serious maintenance problems. Trust me on this... There have already been many articles in the press about customers being angry when taking posession of their new homes when they find out how cheaply its been made. An exception to this is for people who have "purchased/leased" the land and built their own house on it - those are really nice!! But then youre talking $3-5 million plus..
As for making money, yeah sure, had you plunked some money down then and sold it now you would have made a tidy sum. No arguments there - there was a lot of speciulation and risk, and thus the returns were high.
I would just rather invest my money in mature and stable real estate markets in which the property is in my name, end of story. No 3 year visa regulations to deal with, no unnecessary uncertainties, etc. And there are plenty of markets besides the UK that are giving pretty decent returns on your real estate investment right now (Canada, India, Spain) with which I am quite happy :) So I see no reason to invest in Dubai property, not until all these issues are sorted out and quality of construction is on par with international standards.
And another point is that the areas in which these new developments are popping up are just not developed at all.. the proper infrastructure isnt there yet and will take some time yet (hospitals, proper roads, schools, etc etc..), so unless you really work very close to these developments and plan on being in Dubai for a very long time, doenst make much sense to live there.. esp if you work on the other side of Dubai (or old Dubai as they now call it)..

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jag
- arniegang wrote:
  Another thing that a lot of "expats" forget, is that someone like me who has puchased property in Dubai, can apply for Residency as an "investor". Now that i have done this i can live there without actually having to work :).
  Expats who dont own propery have to work to live there -ie "no work - no Dubai".
yeah that's true, but why would you live here if you didnt have any work? Unless you don't need to work and are set to retire, everyone has to work everywhere.. so i dont see a big advantage of that anyways.. most
people will not stay here if they do not have work without income..
Another thing many people do not know is that if the owner of the property is female, she cannot sponsor anyone, not even her husband. The residence visa provided when buying the house can be provided for the family only if the buyer is the male. The male can sponsor the whole family, but in the unfortunate case that the male owner passes away, there are no succession laws, and the property would go back to Dubai.. Even if the spouse got access, she would not be able to sponsor her own kids!! This is stuff you find out from people in the know..
just my 2 fils.. arniegang Hi Jag Respecfully i am going to have to disagree with you on many of the points you raised. Firstly i will address the "build quality" issue. I have an Emaar Property in the new district 4 on the marina. I am a property developer and own many properties both in the UK and Dubai. I have to say for what i paid for the property i am absolutely delighted with both the construction of the 5 towers, the way the development has been finished off and best of all the quality of the finsih within my appartment. Marble has been used in the Kitchen and all the electrical appliances are all Zanussi. At the end of the day i have to compare that with what i could expect to pay in the UK for a simialr property. Jag i am affraid to say that the same in the UK would have cost 150% more than i paid. With regard as to why anyone would want to live in Dubai without working there all i can say is that I dont need to work, i have made my money on the shrewd property investments i have made in the past. I now use my Dubai home basically as a sort of retreat. On the other hand, i would say the majority of expats of all nationalities currently in dubai are only there because they are "working there". without the job the majority of expats could not afford to live there. People are going to have to get used to the fact that Dubai has "opened up", its niche market and is no longer the bastion of the few priviledged expats who live and work there. There is now a means for other wealthy and successful people like myself to have opportunities. The Royal Family had this vision, because of the uncertainty with regard to the limited life of their oil reserves. With regards your views on other properties in other countries such as Canada and Spain i have to again disagree. Investment in property in Spain has now "bottomed out". It has reached its peak to the point that the property sale prices have now levelled out at the "peak". Unless you have bought in the last 4 years there is no longer any profit potential left. This indeed has happened here in the UK, where properties "peaked" at the beginning of 2005 and now the market is starting to drop, because the price at the lower range is beyond affordability for young people. As for Canada and the US, the market is now similar, but the difference being for the majority of us outside North america is that unlike Dubai, no one without a visa is either allowed to work or live there. The situation is totally different in Dubai because market forces dictate that to continue to develop the country the UAE and indeed most of the middle east needs "western technology" because the GCC does not have the skills or knowledge internally. Saudi like the UAE has to buy in specialist skills becasue the "local population" are not able to meet the need. Finally your points regarding "owning the land" or "freehold" is totally misinformed. Everyone to date has bought their properties with the inclusion of "freehold" built in. Currently there is no Freehold Law in the UAE. This is being addressed in 2006 by the Government. However as in the UK, "Freehold" has more than one aspect. We have Freehold and Free. Many homeowners in the UK do not OWN their land. Many of us have 999 leases. If you want to argue the fact that we dont own our land then technically you have a point. But at 999 years it is doubtful on the balance of probability that my childrens, children, children, children,children, children children children childrens children children childrens children will exist. And if i had no children then it has no relevance whatsoever or if my children didnt have any children the same would apply and so on. Regards to the residence visa issue for females in certain aspects you are correct. However in the UK the majority of couples ie Man/Wife purchase the property in joint names. It would be quite rare even in the UK for only the wife to have the property in her sol name. This has as much to do with the ability to borrow the money to purchase that property. To obtain a mortgage the Bank will assess both the earnings of the huband/wife etc and lend to according to their income. Therefore the property is mortgaged to both of them jointly. Therfore in my case, the appartment is JOINTLY owned by me and my wife and therefore sucession does apply. If i were to die then my wife would "inherit" the appartment in dubai and become the "sole owner". She would then be able to apply for residency in her own right as "sole owner". Sometimes i know it is difficult for cultures to appreciate other cultures and to understand the concept of that culture. In the GCC, in difference to the "West", our concept of marriage and the difference between husband and wife are in many ways very very different. For example Westerners have little or no concept of "arranged marriages" and the way man and wife live. In the West, in many cases the woman goes out to work as well as her husband and the bringing up of the family is jointly shared. In many parts of the middle/far east the family concept is totally different. for example: Get married, the mans owns the house and goes to work, and the wife stays at home and has the children and doesnt ever work or own anything - Period. ArifN WOW thanks for the useful info,really appreciate that u took time to explain in great detail, Agree with arniegang about the UK market , I will be selling my two bedroom terrace house to raise some funds for dubai,Im looking at around Ł55k for it, average price now is Ł170k for a 4 bedroom, so what you's are saying that definately got ot have a job firts before im allowed to rent, what about if i start a businesss? should get residency then no doubt, you want to rent out your apartment arniegang, sounds really good :) when is International City being comnpleted?? arniegang
- ArifN wrote:
  WOW thanks for the useful info,really appreciate that u took time to explain in great detail,
  Agree with arniegang about the UK market , I will be selling my two bedroom terrace house to raise some funds for dubai,Im looking at around Ł55k for it, average price now is Ł170k for a 4 bedroom,
  so what you's are saying that definately got ot have a job firts before im allowed to rent, what about if i start a businesss? should get residency then no doubt,
  you want to rent out your apartment arniegang, sounds really good :)
  when is International City being comnpleted??
Your most welcome ArifN, glad to give honest unbiased advice.
I think many of the expats of whatever nationality do not realise what the property situation is like here in the UK. It is interesting to note that many expats are all complaining about the recent "rent hikes" in Dubai.
In a property market moving as fast as in Dubai, and where they have never experienced this before, i can understand their reluctance to accept and their lack of "understanding".
People in dubai expect rents to be capped at a very low level. In my opinion they are dillouded because of varios reasons/factors.
1/ In a bullish property market, rents will always rise in relation to the value of "the property". IE: a property that was worth 500,000Dhs 2/3 years ago and was say rented for 35000 Dhs was reasonable. Now we have the situation where that property maybe worth 1,000,000 Dhs. Im sorry to say, but on that value the rent is no longer resonable. The rent would now be/should be 70,000 - 80,000 Dhs.
2/ Dubai has never experienced a "property market". The doors were only opened fully in May 2002.
3/ Market forces create supply and demand. At the moment demand for purchase/ownership and rental is far outstripping supply. This in turn is creating the "boom". It is no different with property as it is say Auctioning Car Number Plates. This has created a market in Dubai and prices have rocketed. Sorry, but property is no different to any other commodity that has any value and is of limited supply.
I dont know much about the completion date of international city. At a guess i wouldnt say it would be occupiable before 2007. Most of the new releases of various projects now have completion dates going into 2007/2008. You maybe need to look at resales which currently is the only way to obtain property currently ready for occupation. But because of most projects still under construction and very limited actually for sale to "move in" prices are currently sky high :D
As regards business opportunities, there are many my friend. Im sure others on here will be able to advise you on this. jag
- arniegang wrote:
  Hi Jag
  Respecfully i am going to have to disagree with you on many of the points you raised.
  No problem there, always keen to learn more :)
  Firstly i will address the "build quality" issue. I have an Emaar Property in the new district 4 on the marina. I am a property developer and own many properties both in the UK and Dubai. I have to say for what i paid for the property i am absolutely delighted with both the construction of the 5 towers, the way the development has been finished off and best of all the quality of the finsih within my appartment. Marble has been used in the Kitchen and all the electrical appliances are all Zanussi. At the end of the day i have to compare that with what i could expect to pay in the UK for a simialr property. Jag i am affraid to say that the same in the UK would have cost 150% more than i paid.
  Definitely, sounds like you did get a good deal! Many people do get good deals, but I also know many people who didnt.. Guess its the luck of the draw. I agree with your comments about the UK market. I wasnt comparing to the UK market, which is well known to be expensive. Definitely you would get a better deal here than in the UK, with the current UK prices..
  With regard as to why anyone would want to live in Dubai without working there all i can say is that I dont need to work, i have made my money on the shrewd property investments i have made in the past. I now use my Dubai home basically as a sort of retreat. On the other hand, i would say the majority of expats of all nationalities currently in dubai are only there because they are "working there". without the job the majority of expats could not afford to live there.
  Exactly, that was my point! Majority here do need to work :) But if you pruchase it as a holiday home, then its all good..
  People are going to have to get used to the fact that Dubai has "opened up", its niche market and is no longer the bastion of the few priviledged expats who live and work there. There is now a means for other wealthy and successful people like myself to have opportunities. The Royal Family had this vision, because of the uncertainty with regard to the limited life of their oil reserves.
  Yep, more people can afford propertly here now, that's for sure.. not just the footballers and celebs..
  With regards your views on other properties in other countries such as Canada and Spain i have to again disagree. Investment in property in Spain has now "bottomed out". It has reached its peak to the point that the property sale prices have now levelled out at the "peak". Unless you have bought in the last 4 years there is no longer any profit potential left.
  Actually, I had bought in about 7 years ago and am renting it out, so its doing well.. Canada, well that market has witnessed a constuction boom in residential prices and some good money was made there.. and its still going strong.. though condo prices have now dropped.
  This indeed has happened here in the UK, where properties "peaked" at the beginning of 2005 and now the market is starting to drop, because the price at the lower range is beyond affordability for young people.
  As for Canada and the US, the market is now similar, but the difference being for the majority of us outside North america is that unlike Dubai, no one without a visa is either allowed to work or live there. The situation is totally different in Dubai because market forces dictate that to continue to develop the country the UAE and indeed most of the middle east needs "western technology" because the GCC does not have the skills or knowledge internally. Saudi like the UAE has to buy in specialist skills becasue the "local population" are not able to meet the need.
  Finally your points regarding "owning the land" or "freehold" is totally misinformed. Everyone to date has bought their properties with the inclusion of "freehold" built in. Currently there is no Freehold Law in the UAE.
  This is being addressed in 2006 by the Government. However as in the UK, "Freehold" has more than one aspect. We have Freehold and Free. Many homeowners in the UK do not OWN their land. Many of us have 999 leases. If you want to argue the fact that we dont own our land then technically you have a point.
  But at 999 years it is doubtful on the balance of probability that my childrens, children, children, children,children, children children children childrens children children childrens children will exist. And if i had no children then it has no relevance whatsoever or if my children didnt have any children the same would apply and so on.
  Hmm, I didnt know that. I could have sworn that in the UAE, the cap is set at 99 years not 999. Otherwise, yeah 999 is plenty!! Will check again with a government official i know well...
  Regards to the residence visa issue for females in certain aspects you are correct. However in the UK the majority of couples ie Man/Wife purchase the property in joint names. It would be quite rare even in the UK for only the wife to have the property in her sol name. This has as much to do with the ability to borrow the money to purchase that property. To obtain a mortgage the Bank will assess both the earnings of the huband/wife etc and lend to according to their income. Therefore the property is mortgaged to both of them jointly.
  Therfore in my case, the appartment is JOINTLY owned by me and my wife and therefore sucession does apply. If i were to die then my wife would "inherit" the appartment in dubai and become the "sole owner". She would then be able to apply for residency in her own right as "sole owner".
  Hmm, seems to make sense.. just so much confusion over the official rules here yknow.. would be nice if the specified all this stuff when you inquire about buying property and give you all the facts straight up when you are considering buying!
  Sometimes i know it is difficult for cultures to appreciate other cultures and to understand the concept of that culture. In the GCC, in difference to the "West", our concept of marriage and the difference between husband and wife are in many ways very very different. For example Westerners have little or no concept of "arranged marriages" and the way man and wife live. In the West, in many cases the woman goes out to work as well as her husband and the bringing up of the family is jointly shared. In many parts of the middle/far east the family concept is totally different. for example: Get married, the mans owns the house and goes to work, and the wife stays at home and has the children and doesnt ever work or own anything - Period.
  Heh, yeah different cultures, different situations, totally agree. Some good points being discussed here though, glad I found this thread :)
  Lets hope the property market stabilizes and matures.. similar situation to now happened to Hong Kong in the 80s and it didnt end too well..
arniegang Hi Jag Good debate i agree with you. With regards the 99 year lease you mentioned, yes that was the case back before May 2002. Emaar's first phase which is the 5 towers on Marina Walk, Murjan Maesk etc were all sold initially on a 99 year lease. People like myself walked in the sales centre and then very quickly walked out again. I believe the Shiek changed his mind because he soon realised that Westerner's would never consider purchasing property's on a 99 year lease. I agree with you about Canada, i have a friend who bought in Whistler 5 years ago and has done really well with regard to rentals and increase in value. However, i thought you were referring to now, and now i believe the time is right in Dubai. However, in saying this as in all property market booms what goes up will always eventually come down. I predict the market will slow down in late 2007, when the number of properties released/completed will flood the market with "re-sales". I also believe eventually supply will outstrip demand, it will be then that rents will in all probability drop substantially as investors will be competeing to rent out their properties. I think there is very little time left now to make any money with property in Dubai , as i think we have passed the time between purchasing off plan and completion. People considering buying now for "investment" may possibly be dissappointed. Jag, overall i think much confussion arises because there is a "grape vine" amonst the expats. I really do believe there is a level of reluctance to accept that Dubai has now "opened its doors". 3/4 years ago Dubai belonged to the elite group of expats, the rest of us had to pay Ł200 a night upwards. This will be no longer be the case very shortly. Another reason i believe is there is a growing number of "private developers", and this has led to the introduction of "cowboys". The contracts are loosly worded and the finsih may not be what was advertised in the sales brochures. This was the sole reason i choose to buy my property through Emaar. Their contracts for sale are based on the English system and are very clear and legally watertight. I cannot speak for other developers. sniper420 Hmm quite a debate. Well if I were an expat and had a choice to buy a property in Canada or Dubai, I would choose Canada because I can see or predict where I am after say 20 yrs but in the case of Dubai it's capricious cos first of all it's not democratic which means nobody can do anything when the shiekhs change the laws which can affect he value or the ownership of the land. Secondly, Dubai still earns substantial amount 30% through oil, most of them selling second hand parts and tourism, once the oil reserves are used up or demand for oil descreases (who knows somebody can come up with cheap alternative like hydrogen), then Dubai has to depend on something else like tax which can hit really hard on the expats cos majority do business here cos of tax-free environment. Frankly 1 out of 5 western investors agreed to invest in a politically volatile middle east region. Yes the point and resons arn and Jag stated were really informative and gave a view of the real estate business in Dubai. Chocoholic Hm OK some good points raised and no disrespect taken. But I've looked into the propery market here quite a bit, there was a recent big article slating several of the big construction companies for the finishes on their properties, particularly in the Spings/moeadows area and the Greens Community. If you pay 2 million dirhams for a place, the finish better be darn good. Plus some friends who've bought told me they felt like guineapigs as they constantly had problems and applicances were always having to be replaced. Currently in the UAE constitution no where does it say that expats are allowed to own property. Yes you have it on a leasehold basis, but this obviously causes problems for mortages as banks want deeds to properties, which you can't provide. Plus you know what it's like in this country, if you own the bricks and mortar of a villa for example, but don't own the land, there is absolutely nothing stopping the land owner bulldozing it and slapping up a tower block - of course more revenue for him. I'm well aware how the house market in the UK differs, having been in it for years and there are some good oppotunities for property buying here, but the basic things you need are still missing. Good on you if you've had a good experience, many people certainly haven't and have wondered what on earth they've got themselves into. You also have to remember that the guys building here are unskilled cheap labour, everything goes up at a phenomenal rate and you have to wonder how safe it all can be in that respect. With regard to rents, obviously you expect rents to go up, but in every other market there is a top percentage by which they can go up. Now the landlords excuse that it's inline with international market values is total rubbish. To put someone's rent up by 50 - 100% annually or even six monthly is not good. I think it's good that the authorities have capped it at 15% although this can still be horrendous, not necessarily for westerners who tend to earn more, but what about the lower wage people, how can they afford it? Plus you also have to remember that in the UAE people don't get annual pay rises to compensate for everything else going up. Take me, I 've been here 2 and a half years, no pay rise, no paid holiday, no flight tickets as yet! You can't really compare this market to any other as it's a law unto itself. hashman very informative forum! Thinking of investing here.

arniegang
- Chocoholic wrote:
  Hm OK some good points raised and no disrespect taken. But I've looked into the propery market here quite a bit, there was a recent big article slating several of the big construction companies for the finishes on their properties, particularly in the Spings/moeadows area and the Greens Community. If you pay 2 million dirhams for a place, the finish better be darn good. Plus some friends who've bought told me they felt like guineapigs as they constantly had problems and applicances were always having to be replaced.
  Currently in the UAE constitution no where does it say that expats are allowed to own property. Yes you have it on a leasehold basis, but this obviously causes problems for mortages as banks want deeds to properties, which you can't provide. Plus you know what it's like in this country, if you own the bricks and mortar of a villa for example, but don't own the land, there is absolutely nothing stopping the land owner bulldozing it and slapping up a tower block - of course more revenue for him.
  I'm well aware how the house market in the UK differs, having been in it for years and there are some good oppotunities for property buying here, but the basic things you need are still missing.
  Good on you if you've had a good experience, many people certainly haven't and have wondered what on earth they've got themselves into. You also have to remember that the guys building here are unskilled cheap labour, everything goes up at a phenomenal rate and you have to wonder how safe it all can be in that respect.
  With regard to rents, obviously you expect rents to go up, but in every other market there is a top percentage by which they can go up. Now the landlords excuse that it's inline with international market values is total rubbish. To put someone's rent up by 50 - 100% annually or even six monthly is not good. I think it's good that the authorities have capped it at 15% although this can still be horrendous, not necessarily for westerners who tend to earn more, but what about the lower wage people, how can they afford it?
  Plus you also have to remember that in the UAE people don't get annual pay rises to compensate for everything else going up. Take me, I 've been here 2 and a half years, no pay rise, no paid holiday, no flight tickets as yet!
  You can't really compare this market to any other as it's a law unto itself.
Choc
I'm sorry to say, you are quite incorrect on many of your points. firstly i own my property. There is no "leasehold" in my case. We own the "freehold". Currently on all properties built and sold by Emaar and Nakheel, becasue they are part funded by the government they actually own the land on which their properties are built. Our contracts allow for the transfer of the freehold from the developer to the owner WHEN the new "freehold law" comes into effect later in 2006.
This is the reason why no owner in dubai currently has any "deeds". The developer currently hold the deeds. However when the freehold law is created, there will be a "property register" created like the Land Registry in the UK. Our contracts are quite clear in that when this happens the "title" of the property will transfer to the owner and then entered as such on the new Dubai Land Register.
I also disagree with regard to rents. Property and rents will rise in line with the current market conditions. Unfortunately in dubai, there has been not only a unpresidented property boom, but more importantly since 2003/4 there was basiscally no Property Market at all. In my humble opinion, rents were "artificially low" prior to the existance of the law that was passed to allow certain foreigners to own property in dubai in 2002.
I appreciate and respect your and others like you opinion because at the end of the day expats whoose companies do not supply housing or rent allowances are now suffering the "rent hike situation". but at the end of the day thats life in a fast moving and growing economy.
And with the utmost of respect Choc, its no good bleating about your working conditions of no pay rises, no holiday, no flights. At the end of the day that really is your choice. You knew this when you took up your employment. What has changed is Dubai itself, and i'm affraid your employment situation has not altered to take account for this. Dubai is no different to any other employment market in the world. If you dont like your employment conditions then move on. I know this sounds harsh but that is the reality i'm affraid Choc.
With regard to your friends that "felt like guineapigs". Well if they buy a property that is too small for them or on a development that is like "toy town" , then really that is their own issue and has nothing to do with the developer or the builder. With regard to appliances - well they do break down, in Dubai and every other city in the world. The average life of a dishwasher or washing machine used daily is only 3 years. If they live in the Meadows or springs then i would imagine its time to think about replacing them.
With regard contruction - well Atkins are the consulting engineers on most of the large developments in Dubai. Atkins is the largest Civil Engineers and are from the UK. Atkins were the Engineers who built the Burj El Arab, the Jumeira Beach hotel, and the Petrona Towers. I am very pleased that a very well respect UK civil engineering company were the engineers who built my appartment tower :)
Also for those that only listen to others in their "own circles". All Emaar and Nakheeel properties come with a 10 year guarantee simialar to our NHBC system in the UK.
Please dont take this personally Choc, i am merely trying to give you an alternative opinion/viewpoint. I can assure you before i spent Ł120,000 i did my homework and i know what i have bought. sniper420 yes u really did ur homework. gj arniegang
- sniper420 wrote:
  yes u really did ur homework. gj
Thank you sniper, yes i did my my homework, and i'm sucessful because of this.
Unlike a lot of the "old time expats", who thought all this construction was a "flash in the pan" and all thought ewwww this will go wrong" and are still winging about it, some of us, in fact A LOT OF US actually got money out of our pockets.
Take for example Choc's comments. At the end of the day, if she and others like her had walked into the Emaar sales office in 2002 and put down as in my case 65,600 Dhs, then borrowed the money for completion in April 2005, they could have made themselves 350,000 Dhs.
Now had they spent less time thinking all this property stuff is crap, and thought about it and done what i had done, do you think thaey would be compalining about crappy washing machines and poor construction now with 350.000 Dhs in their bank account. I think not.
Another important point to note Sniper, is that the Expats who came to Dubai in the late 90's early 2000's and probably sold their homes and came to the land of plenty, have probably shot themselves well and truely in the foot.
The average house price in the UK has risen from Ł77,000 in 1998 to Ł186,000 in 2005. On the basis they all came to Dubai to earn a lot of "tax free" money live the good life and save for the day they will go home, sadly they have made one huge mistake.
An expat who will want to come home and buy a house, would now have had to SAVED on average the equiv of 130,000 Dhs per year to just re-purchase the house they sold to come to Dubai.
To make matters even worse, they have now even missed out on the property boom in Dubai.
And to add insult to injury, it is really ironic that over a quater of a million investors and increasing by the day all think dubai is a good investment. A few hundred expats think they know better. I think not sniper420 Agreed but one has to know the forces of demand and supply to really predict and think ahead i.e you need to have some experience in real estate business to know nitty gritty of buying and selling which I guess you are knowlegable. But one last thing- yah you can never really correctly predict the property prices say like 3 or 5 yrs from now cos the price depends on so many factors of the economy. I guess the expats who didnt invest in the property thought investing in Dubai is risky cos of politically volatile region or thought the property prices have reached it's peak and will fall down. I love the "laissez faire" policy only when I make profit. :D arniegang
- sniper420 wrote:
  Agreed but one has to know the forces of demand and supply to really predict and think ahead i.e you need to have some experience in real estate business to know nitty gritty of buying and selling which I guess you are knowlegable. But one last thing- yah you can never really correctly predict the property prices say like 3 or 5 yrs from now cos the price depends on so many factors of the economy. I guess the expats who didnt invest in the property thought investing in Dubai is risky cos of politically volatile region or thought the property prices have reached it's peak and will fall down. I love the "laissez faire" policy only when I make profit. :D
I totally agree with you Sniper. But in the UK, we have been buying and selling property for centuries.
The reason i believe the Brit Expats didnt in the main, buy was because they didnt have the foresight or actually had enough money to actually put deposits down.
Its all very well earning 150,000 - 200,00Dhs a year, but it isnt enough to make money on property after deducting living expenses. I can make that on just one deal in the UK.
I truely believe a lot of Expats bad mouth people like me and our properties is because they are to some extent just jealous. I dont mean everyone obviously. sniper420
- arniegang wrote:
  - sniper420 wrote:
    Agreed but one has to know the forces of demand and supply to really predict and think ahead i.e you need to have some experience in real estate business to know nitty gritty of buying and selling which I guess you are knowlegable. But one last thing- yah you can never really correctly predict the property prices say like 3 or 5 yrs from now cos the price depends on so many factors of the economy. I guess the expats who didnt invest in the property thought investing in Dubai is risky cos of politically volatile region or thought the property prices have reached it's peak and will fall down. I love the "laissez faire" policy only when I make profit. :D
  I totally agree with you Sniper. But in the UK, we have been buying and selling property for centuries.
  The reason i believe the Brit Expats didnt in the main, buy was because they didnt have the foresight or actually had enough money to actually put deposits down.
  Its all very well earning 150,000 - 200,00Dhs a year, but it isnt enough to make money on property after deducting living expenses. I can make that on just one deal in the UK.
  I truely believe a lot of Expats bad mouth people like me and our properties is because they are to some extent just jealous. I dont mean everyone obviously.
kekeke jealous cos they killed the goose that layed golden eggs and u have urs ALIVE ! Yeah u bet they are! :lol: onetickin I've paid the first installment on a 1 bedroom apartment in the marina, and I don't even live there. I will be moving out to Dubai in the coming months, so I'm taking a risk. There is risk in every investment or business. You'll get people spending all day talking about the dangers of this and that, and you'll tend to find they are the ones that have missed the boat. House prices might even go down in the next 1, 2, 3 or even 4 years. But, in all markets after 5 years, there is only one direction. And the potential is a lot more than what most people have earn in their day jobs. ArifN In my case arnie it was not having the money at the time to pay the 25% installmens every few months, and then having to wait few years for any return I was fortunate enough to use the money I had to buy a couple of Ł15k two bedroom houses, recieving rent straight away and now the value has increased by 400%, probably the same as people like yourself would make on your apartments(deposit amounts), so I missed the boat in dubai but made up in uk, there are people who are probably jealous ,or just feel unlucky like myself who didnt and dont have the funds for large invetment, but whatever is meant to be will be, BTW are you living in Dubai or UK ,from the post you always refer to here in UK so assumd you are here(uk), what you think for house market in 2006 in uk??? arniegang
- ArifN wrote:
  In my case arnie it was not having the money at the time to pay the 25% installmens every few months, and then having to wait few years for any return
  I was fortunate enough to use the money I had to buy a couple of Ł15k two bedroom houses, recieving rent straight away and now the value has increased by 400%, probably the same as people like yourself would make on your apartments(deposit amounts), so I missed the boat in dubai but made up in uk,
  there are people who are probably jealous ,or just feel unlucky like myself who didnt and dont have the funds for large invetment, but whatever is meant to be will be,
  BTW are you living in Dubai or UK ,from the post you always refer to here in UK so assumd you are here(uk),
  what you think for house market in 2006 in uk???
Hi ArifN
First off i must apologise if i seem "anti expat", if i do, please accept it is not meant that way.
First off, no i do not live in Dubai. Yes i have property there, but i use it purely as a holiday home. I was there for 2 weeks in December and will be back next month.
I have got "residency" which i completed in September, and when i was over last month i bought myself a Jeep Cherokee yippeeeeeeee no more Dubai Taxis lol.
The housing market in the UK at the moment ArifN is pretty well in the doldrums. The market has been stagnent now for the best part of 9 months. The work on the street is that the Bank of England will reduce the base rate by 1/4% in Feb or March. Personally i dont feel this will make enough different to make the market "pick up".
The main issue here now, is the problems faced by the "first time buyer" market. This is the main problem we have here that now has had a clear "knock on " effect experianced in our market.
Basically the price of houses at the lower end is so high, it is making it difficult for the youngsters to actually get on the housing ladder. This in turn has caused the knock on effect upwards, and the market is basically dead.
I really do not forsee this changing in the short term. the average cheaper end starter home in say the "home counties" and london is nearing Ł150-200k. For a younger couple to borrow that amount they would need a combined income of roughly Ł60k.
My personal opinion and please dont quote me is that the market needs to shift downwards, before it picks up again.
All i would say ArifN is that in the early years of the propery boom in Dubai 2002, Emaar and the like were only asking for 10% deposit. It is the "private" developers that increased the deposit margins. RobbyG
- arniegang wrote:
  Hi Jag
  Good debate i agree with you. With regards the 99 year lease you mentioned, yes that was the case back before May 2002. Emaar's first phase which is the 5 towers on Marina Walk, Murjan Maesk etc were all sold initially on a 99 year lease.
  People like myself walked in the sales centre and then very quickly walked out again. I believe the Shiek changed his mind because he soon realised that Westerner's would never consider purchasing property's on a 99 year lease.
  I agree with you about Canada, i have a friend who bought in Whistler 5 years ago and has done really well with regard to rentals and increase in value. However, i thought you were referring to now, and now i believe the time is right in Dubai.
  However, in saying this as in all property market booms what goes up will always eventually come down. I predict the market will slow down in late 2007, when the number of properties released/completed will flood the market with "re-sales". I also believe eventually supply will outstrip demand, it will be then that rents will in all probability drop substantially as investors will be competeing to rent out their properties.
  I think there is very little time left now to make any money with property in Dubai , as i think we have passed the time between purchasing off plan and completion. People considering buying now for "investment" may possibly be dissappointed.
  Jag, overall i think much confussion arises because there is a "grape vine" amonst the expats. I really do believe there is a level of reluctance to accept that Dubai has now "opened its doors". 3/4 years ago Dubai belonged to the elite group of expats, the rest of us had to pay Ł200 a night upwards. This will be no longer be the case very shortly.
  Another reason i believe is there is a growing number of "private developers", and this has led to the introduction of "cowboys". The contracts are loosly worded and the finsih may not be what was advertised in the sales brochures. This was the sole reason i choose to buy my property through Emaar. Their contracts for sale are based on the English system and are very clear and legally watertight. I cannot speak for other developers.
Arnie,
I didn't know you were a rich fooker. :lol:
Anyway, thanks for all the info you supplied us with. At that time of writing this, you accurately predicted the property peak!
You're on my shortlist for DF most wisest saga's. No onions allowed. :lol:
brgds.