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Christian vs Muslim convert terror counts - the results


event horizon I see kidnapping and child soldiers (similar to the Sudan's kidnapping of children and using them as child soldiers) but that is not necessarily conversions. Anyways, Africa should be interesting as you have said. As many people who have been killed by the LRA, those casualties must be dwarfed in comparison to the Muslims and non Muslims killed by child soldiers in the Sudan.
event horizon Again, what are you having problems understanding? The NFLT's membership is, I am sure, a reflection of the larger native Christian population of Tripura. It is up to you to show that the attacks were carried out by converts to Christianity and if these converts were actually converts from Hinduism to Christianity or just one sect of Christianity to another. Otherwise, these numbers are just spin. shafique Ok, I think I will have to do this year by year - starting with 2001.
I've selected only the incidents listed as caused by the Christian terrorists, and not those just 'suspected'. I've ignored the abductions and only counted the deaths and injuries.
Also, where numbers of terrorists are not given, I have conservatively only counted 2 for each (this will also allow for any double counting - where the same terrorists carry out multiple attacks). Where the number of terrorists are given, I have used this.
So, my figure for NLFT convert terrorist attacks for 2001 is:
Terrorists: 52
Killed victims: 29
Injured Victims: 25
There are no assumptions when it comes to the numbers killed or injured, so these are more reliable than the 'numbers of terrorists' - but I have erred on the side of caution and am under-estimating the numbers there.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique As the other thread was getting unwieldly, I started this one so that we can focus on the numbers.
I had one Catholic convert whose actions led to many hundreds of deaths, when we looked at the UK.
Expanding the search to Asia, I will be adding the following to my count.
I'll let eh supply his count in due course.
The links for the count are in this post - so people can verify the count (as I may make an adding error, given the large number of separate incidents over the 8 years we are examining):
shafique We agree that these are Christian terrorists, and I've shown you that they are converts from Hinduism. I agree it is an inconvenient truth that Fox News doesn't highlight the brutality of these Christian terrorists who want to convert people to Christianity, but hey - you set the parameters.
Anyway, I've done 2001 to 2003, and will add the numbers here as I complete them.
Note that these are actual terrorist attacks and exclude the 'suspected' ones (there were quite a few in 2002).
Year No. Terrorists No. Victims Killed No. Injured
2001 52 29 25
2002 30 71 6
2003 87 110 24
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
Total 169 210 55
(apologies for the formatting, but it is 169 terrorists, 210 killed, 55 injured from the list I linked to)
No hurry with your figures eh, given the length of time it took for you to get to one terrorist, I'd hate to rush you now. ;)
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon
Please try and re-read your own posts (perhaps this is why you confused Paul for Peter?). The Baptist Church of Tripura is simply one sect in the Indian state and are a vast minority - with your article saying they have a few thousand converts (dating back since the 1940s?) - of the overall native Christian population in the Indian state, which has over 100,000 adherents.
The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is a group that is separate from the Baptist Church - which your articles says they share *close ties* with each other.
It is your job to find out if the attacks by the NLFT are carried out by former Hindus who converted to Christianity or by Christians who were Christians their entire lives, ie, the vast majority of the Christian population of Tripura.
This shouldn't be too difficult, but I can understand that someone who has never heard of an economy of words might not care about these subtle yet important differences. shafique Ahhh - what's the matter, is the prospect of counting up your totals causing you trouble? These are Christian terrorists who want to convert hindus to Christianity - Church officials have supplied them with explosives etc. But whether they are officially part of the Baptist Church or not is moot - the issue is that these are terrorists and converts from Hinduism to Christianity. I'm not sure where you're getting your info that the majority of the terrorists are Christians by birth. (Which is an interesting viewpoint, in of itself!) The fact that these converts are fighting in the name of Christianity (wanting to convert people by force) means that the count is particularly relevant. Anyway - you can still use this thread to post your totals. (note that it will be interesting to look at Africa in due course - Uganda will prove interesting, but hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves) Cheers, Shafique event horizon What are you having difficulty understanding? Your list is of crimes carried out by the NLFT. The majority of Christians residing in the Indian state are native Christians and, I would suspect, a majority of members to this baptist sect in the state are even native born - either switching sects or are the offspring of converts from Hinduism. Since the majority of the members of the NLFT are not converts, it is your job to separate attacks carried out by genuine converts from attacks carried out by Christians who were Christians their entire lives. event horizon
Still confusing this baptist sect with the NLFT, I see. shafique In relation to how many converts etc:

Christ and North-East India
by Francois Gautier
The Indian Express
November 20, 2000


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event horizon Ok, fair enough. I certainly concede that NLFT are converts to Christianity.
It's unfortunate that some Christians have been corrupted by the teachings found in other religious books which say to attack unbelievers and those who attack unbelievers will become martyrs for killing being killed whilst fighting unbelievers.
Anyways, I'll wait for shafique to provide his stats for the numbers of civilians killed by the NFLT and if he includes soldiers, paramilitary, and police officers in his stats?
I also agree that africa will be interesting. The Sudanese government forcibly converted Christian youth and used some of these converts to attack their former Christian villages.
As the article I linked to in another thread, the civil war in the Sudan was one of the bloodiest conflicts in the past 60 years and the number of Christians and animists killed by the Sudanese government is truly countless.

shafique
Great.
My totals are in the post above, I'll add to that when I get to the other years (2004 onwards).
The list is quite gruesome - includes women and children being killed. And the abductions aren't included in the list.
I guess you'll be some time compiling your count, so I guess my count can wait to next week.
I agree also that Africa should prove interesting.
Cheers.
Shafique shafique I am going to exclude the kidnapped and coerced children from the counts - that is why I'm only going to count a maximum of 500 actual LRA terrorists and why thus far only 100 have been added to my total. I should really add the kidnapped children to the list of victims, but as I excluded the NLFT's abductees from my list, I'll have to stick to the numbers killed and injured. We are still waiting for your updated count. The LRA are clearly terrorists and are religiously motivated (albeit the 'religion' is only partly based on Christianity and is more like a cult) - their atrocities are clearly terrorist acts. These terrorists joined a cult and by definition converted from previous beliefs to the beliefs of this cult. By your own criteria, we are counting terrorists who are converts to Islam and comparing them with converts to other religions. I wasn't aware of Sudanese converts terrorising populations - perhaps you have some references? Also, I think you are completely mistaken if you believe the reported child abductions in Sudan 'dwarf' the atrocities and abductions of the LRA (again you seem to have a problem distinguishing facts/stats from hype) - but that is a moot point as we are counting converts here. You can start a new thread to compare the two and I'll provide the LRA stats for you. Cheers, Shafique shafique It looks like I won't have time to update the count this week as I had hoped.. so the count still stands at: For the period 2001 to 2003: No. Christian converts carrying out terrorist acts: 169* No. people killed by these: 210 *this is a minimum figure, actual figure is higher due to conservative assumptions. This compares with the period 2001 to 2009 and the latest equivalent count provided by eh of Muslim Converts carrying out terrorist attacks: No. Muslim Converts carrying out Terrorist acts: 1 No. people killed: 26 I'll let eh convert his headlines into counts - but he has a way to go before reaching the 169 I have so far.. Cheers, Shafique event horizon Hmm, it seems that you've avoided my question. Are you including police/soldiers/paramilitary into this count? shafique 169 vs 1 I'm not counting attacks between terrorist groups, or where the government forces have attacked the terrorists - the count of the Christian converts is being limited to where they are attacking and killing or injuring civilians. I have included all deaths causes by these attacks. As I stated, the 169 is only for years 2001 to 2003 and is an underestimate. That said, I've given the source of my stats and my assumptions - I'm happy for you to double check and give us your count (but I suspect you're going to struggle to cut through the hype of your Fox News headlines and get an updated count to add to your current count of one numpty ;). As it stands, we have your one actual terrorist against my minimum of 169 and counting. At this stage, it looks like radical Christianity is more dangerous than radical Islam - but that this is not reflected in the 'Fox News' world of headlines. I'm not surprised, and the stats are revealing the reality vs the hype, as I suspected it would. Cheers, Shafique shafique Bump for eh - my count of actual terrorists who are converts still stands at 169, yours still stands at one. I invite you to update your count and give the source of these new additions. I think I'll update my figures for the next calendar year.. Cheers, Shafique shafique Ok, taking all the attacks into account, my estimate is as follows: Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232 Total killed by these: 267 Total reported injured :88 This excludes 'suspected' terrorist attacks and anyone reportedly killed in cross-fire. The list of terror acts by the 'Christian Al-Qaeda' as they are sometimes called, is here: So, that makes it currently 232 actual Christian convert terrorists compared to one actual Muslim convert terrorist (until eh updates his count). The numbers killed are 267 vs 26. It appears that the Bible breeds more terrorist converts than the Quran - well, if we go by the Stats that is. Interesting that the Fox News headlines don't reflect this reality! ;) Cheers, Shafique shafique Oh - I'll wait for you to get to above 100 terrorists before I include the terrorist acts carried out by the Lord's Resistance Army in Africa. That will probably double the numbers on my side, at least - but no use scaring you too much right now... let's see what your final total is for Europe, Asia and America before we move on to Africa. Cheers, Shafique
shafique
The last one which had 'alleged terrorist leader' in the title:

As I said, if you want to include alleged convert terrorists - let me know and I'll add back in to my tally the attacks that were suspected in the list of NLFT attacks.
I'm glad you have finally got a calculator out:

So, is it 6 terrorists now - or 7? Are you deliberately not counting the terrorists?
You haven't shown that the 45 killed in Casablanca were killed by converts - just an article alleging that there were converts in the organisation. This is another piece of speculation.
Also the 21 killed in Tunisia weren't killed by the Polish convert -

However, you seem to be including the 21 because the Pole was part of the leadership. Therefore, you should have no objection to me counting the victims of Tony Blair's escapades then - he was the Catholic Convert leader who caused the deaths of thousands of civilians.
Anyway - I see that you are desperate to get your count up.
Notably though, even with this dodgy data, you are still coming up short.
My count is 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq)
Christians are still ahead in the stakes! Thinking about it - there must be fewer Christian converts in the world - so therefore the proportion of Christian convert terrorists is far greater than Muslim convert terrorists (by your own count). Therefore the Bible's violent passages must be a greater influence to terrorist than the Quran - or do you have a different explanation? (Perhaps there are more numpties who convert to Christianity than numpties converting to Islam??)
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon Actually, if I am not mistaken, we were comparing all converts to other religions with converts only to Islam. Anyways, I notice that you still have not distinguished between the parent insurgent group and the splinter group which is, apparently, the religious movement - the charter of the NFLT confirms that the original group does not discriminate in membership acceptance based on religion and is a nationalist/soft leftist organization without any call for the establishment of a theocracy (unlike Muslim groups in which there is no separation between religion and politics). event horizon Let's add 116 to that death toll:
event horizon 12 more: MANILA, February 15, 2005 --- A spate of bomb explosions in Makati City, General Santos City, and Davao City, killed at least 12 people on Monday, turning the Valentine's Day celebrations into a nightmare. According to the government, the Rajah Sulaiman Movement (RSM) were behind the attack :( shafique I see headlines and a claim for a count of 116 by one convert, and 12 by an unspecified number of RSM.
So, my count still stands at:
Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88
It should be straightforward to produce your count eh - it was previously
1 terrorist, 26 killed.
Therefore your updated count is
4 convert terrorists (counting 2 for the RSM bombing)
26+116+12=152 killed
Edit - from the last link you gave, it says:

So, I'll be generous and agree that all these guys (RSM) are converts to Islam from Christianity and that the total number of these are 100. You just need to decide how many to count per incident (I counted only 2 per NLFT incident, to be conservative)
So, the numbers seem to be increasing -but it is still clear that those converts using the Bible to justify terrorism caused more harm than muslim converts.
Let us have your definitive counts and we'll check the ratios.
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon 16 more, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo went on a little Jihad terror spree, striking terror into the hearts of unbelievers: shafique The Christian Terrorists are still winning though.. it appears that statisically speaking the Bible leads to more terrorist converts and killings!! When we get to Africa, we can add all the killings carried out by the Lords Resistance Army - these converts weren't converts to Islam.. but I'll let eh carry on and see if he can get to shouting distance of the Christian Convert terrorists. A bit more work for you to do eh... it must be hard work scouring Fox News archives! :wink: (Can I ask you to maintain your own count from now on - I've done the initial work for you - I make your grand total now at 6 terrorists who were converts who killed 168 total, vs 232 Christian converts who killed 267) Cheers, Shafique event horizon

The number of Muslim converts who have carried out violent Jihad increases... event horizon 21 more:

[tt_news]=34554&cHash=dbb08118d8 event horizon
[tt_news]=948&tx_ttnews[backPid]=181&no_cache=1
This might take longer than I thought :(
Just to be on the safe side, I'll go ahead and include the death counts of the Casablanca Jihad bombings in this tally:
45 more Chocoholic And the point of your discussion is what exactly? You two could go on like this forever! Who cares, if they're muslim, christian, convert, whatever - anyone who take the life of others in the name of something is subhuman in my book. Numbers don't matter, 1 person is 1 too many. event horizon 26 wounded from Jihad bombing

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/170416/alleged-terrorist-leader-cornered-in-marawi-city shafique eh-oh was convinced that Islam creates more converts who carry out terrorist acts. I said that this theory can easily be tested by looking at the stats. I even allowed him to select the time period and which countries/areas to count. To be honest - I'm surprised that anyone other than the two of us is looking at this discussion - but for me it is a bit of a hobby to compare Fox News Headlines with reality. I'll wait for eh-oh's totals to approach mine before I continue to add to my totals - it will be interesting for me to watch whether he can, but let's see and let the stats speak for themselves. What is distinct between the two of us though - is that I don't propose that the acts carried out by Christian terrorists represents true Christian teachings - on the contrary, these acts are carried out despite what Jesus taught. eh - you forgot to update your count, as I said, you'll have to do that from now. Addition isn't that hard. ;) (Also, I see you are now including 'alleged' convert terrorist attacks - should I similarly add the suspected NLFT attacks which I excluded?) Cheers, Shafique event horizon
What 'alleged' attacks are you referring to?
Unlike your list which does not provide any citations (something a tad sketchy to me), all of my terror attacks have been confirmed (along with casualties) to have been carried out by converts with the converts behind the last two attacks that resulted in deaths being tried and sentenced under a court of law for their involvement.
26+116+12+16+21+45=236 killed event horizon 26+116+12+16+21+45=236 killed vs 267 killed. And I am being generous by not disputing your 'source' and including attacks carried out by Marxists in your list. It should also speak volumes that in Christianity, Tony Blair is on par with Muslim fanatics (because he supports gay marriage?) who seek to establish a religious theocracy and roll society back to the seventh century. 'nuff said. shafique I admire your conversion to the stats - initially you were reluctant to count victims, now you seem to have an aversion to counting the number of terrorists. I guess the selective quoting habit is a hard one to break! ;) But your arithmetic is letting yourself down - if you want to include the 21 and 45 killed in your list, then the numbers killed in my list jump to a conservative 10,267. Please try and keep up. As for your contempt of Tony Blair - I take it you don't approve of his conversion to Catholicism. It does seem odd that you seem able to condemn all other terrorists EXCEPT Jewish terrorists like Goldstein. But hey - let's allow the stats to speak for themselves. Don't forget to count the terrorists as well - what is your number now, 7 ?? Cheers, Shafique event horizon We already went over this - Tony Blair does not meet the criteria for this thread. But I'm happy to play this game - do you have any sources that show 10,000 civilians were directly killed by the British military? shafique So, you do want to include your 45 and 21 victims where converts did not directly kill the victims - fair enough, I'm allowing you to set the rules.
As for the 10,000 count - you can take your pick of the statistics, as I've played it very conservatively.
I took into consideration the UNICEF report that said that sanctions against Iraq had led to 500,000 deaths of infants in Iraq (this was before the war) and that the conditions for these infants did not improve with the war. I also took into account the civilian casualties in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, but allowed for the fact that the majority were killed by US forces and a large number were killed by sectarian violence.
Part of the problem though is that the 'coalition' has chosen not to count the casualties of the civilian population, let alone the combatants. This disregard for the humanity of the people attacking is a feature of terrorism.
What is your estimate of the civilian casualties that Blair should be allocated? I think 10,000 is a grave underestimate - but I'll be happy to revise it if you come up with a more credible result.
Some links for your research:
/
The IBC's count of civilians violently killed (in verified incidents, so is probably an underestimate) in Iraq is over 60,000:

And this article by a member of IBC in 2006 exposes Blair's involvement/complicity (pretty much stating the obvious really):
Now add to that the civilian casualties in Afghanistan - just do a Google on this one, wiki has a page, but so does the UN, HRW etc
And, as I said earlier, you also need to factor in the effect of sanctions between 2001 and 2003 on the death rate of toddlers.
Let me know your estimate.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique double post event horizon No, I don't believe that civilians killed by the British military during their invasion of Iraq should be included in this thread on converts to other religions who become *religious fanatics*. I included the bombings of a Tunisian synagogue and the Casablanca bombings because the converts to Islam (who were convicted as either the leaders in the bombings or perps who played a leading role) were members of al-Qaeda or other similar Salafi groups. But hey, perhaps you can still grasp at straws in your claim that Blair is a religious extremist, let alone one on par with an al-Qaeda member. Perhaps someone will believe you. As I said, I'll go ahead and humor you now although I see that you still have not addressed my question but continued to evade it. What are the number of Iraqi civilian casualties who were directly killed by the British military? I see that you still have not filtered out Iraqi deaths from insurgent and militia groups and American forces in your estimate - although you apparently want me to do your research for you. Oh well, I guess this is another incident of all mouth no trousers. Let me know when you've gone through the archives and tallied up your results. event horizon dp shafique I can't see how I'm evading your question - I gave my estimate at 10,000 which is quite low given the numbers of civilian casualties. I was quite happy to not include civilians indirectly killed by converts - but you chose to include the 45 killed in Tunisia (who weren't directly killed by a convert). It is really down to you - if you want to include those indirectly killed (or those killed by suspected converts), then I'll have to add these to my totals as well. Even if I reduce my estimate of those indirectly killed by Mr Blair's actions by 90% - that still gives me 1000 extra deaths and swamps your numbers. But as I said, I stand by my 10,000 and have provided the links of the civilian deaths caused by the invasions. The link between Blair and the deaths of Iraqi and Afghan civilians is as strong as the link between the Pole Convert and the 45 killed in Tunisia. Cheers, Shafique shafique Apologies for asking yet again - but what is your latest count of actual terrorists now? Has it reached 10 yet? Cheers, Shafique event horizon My count passed ten quite a while ago - this also includes two successful suicide bombers which, afaik, the only converts who have carried out suicide attacks have been those converts to Islam. event horizon
Why not go ahead and present your numbers??? shafique I have, my count is an additional 10,000 if we count indirect deaths caused by converts. Sheesh - try and keep up eh. Now, what was your count of terrorists again? Have you reached 10 yet? (I know you say you think you've passed 10, but I can't see where you've actually given a count..) Cheers, Shafique event horizon Yes, I agree you have your count. But your count is made up, that is why I'm rejecting it until you trawl through the archives and provide an actual figure based on research. shafique You are free to accept or reject my count (you have other quaint beliefs that aren't based on evidence) - however, the question I asked was:
What is your count of actual terrorists?
My count (fully referenced) still stands at:

If you don't agree with the 232 NLFT terrorists whose actions are clearly detailed, then you are free to give us your modified count.
In the meantime, your count of less than 10 is looking pretty anaemic. But then again, when statistics show up a false belief the tendency is to first go into denial before displaying anger. Don't worry, you'll soon get to acceptance.
So, what was your count again?
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon Actually I was referring to your quaint belief that the British military killed 10,000 Iraqi civilians, hence my request that you trawl through the archives for yourself and confirm your own claim - as opposed to having someone else doing your work for you. I'm happy to include even more Muslim convert terrorists who carried out terror attacks as well. If I recall, India is home to a training camp of convert Islamic extremists and many converts have been implicated in the numerous Jihad terror attacks against the state of India. It's also interesting that Muslim terrorist converts, unlike Christian converts who are relegated to illiterate, third world regions of the world, are often persons from the West, educated and with no history of violence prior to their conversion to Islam. Yet, despite this, there is a worrisome trend of educated Western converts to become violent terrorists based on the texts and teachings of Islam. shafique What is your count?
(As I stated before, it is your choice whether to include converts who did not directly kill people - you wanted to include the Polish convert -I'll continue to separate out the two - one count for actual terrorists who actually killed people and excludes those 'suspected' to be terrorists, and one that includes indirect killings by converts).
As I said -

What is your count?
Cheers,
Shafique Roadtester who said tony blair / uk is a christian country? Terrorist activities/wars started by athiests = 0 shafique Blair is a practicing Catholic and a convert - and I agree he didn't directly kill anyone, but neither did the Polish Convert to Islam that eh-oh wants to include in his count. As for atheists not being terrorists, I can think of quite a few examples -but two will suffice. 1. ETA in Spain - terrorists with a Marxist viewpoint, fighting for independent Basque homeland. 2. Irgun in Palestine - carried out arguably the first modern day terrorist attacks, such as the bombing of King David Hotel: One of their leaders was Menachem Begin who later became PM of Israel. Irgun were a secular Zionist organisation - fighting not for religion but to gain control of Palestine: Cheers, Shafique Roadtester Sorry shafique what i mean is terrorism 'in the name of athiesm' do you get what i mean? Christians and Muslims as have all other religions, have been bad throughout milennia. shafique
Yes - agree with you there. Blowing people up to make them not believe in God isn't a feature of atheists - can't argue with that.

Yep - no argument with that either.
I have argued in the past that more people have been killed for non-religious reasons, notably land-grabs, racism and nationalism in general, but there's no denying the carnage of the various 'Holy Wars' and Crusades etc.
Cheers,
Shafique Roadtester but again many of these non-religious actions are rooted in religious validation. Take africa christianity mis-interpreted 'Ham being cursed to be black' to validate the actions. I dont know the islamic world justified its slavery of east africans of which at the height was supposed to be 10 x what was going to europe/americas. Jamal
:lol: :lol: :lol: where did you get your information from ... wikipedia??? haha
aint no slavery ever gone on in any islamic state ....
the west created an started terror then stuck it onto islam ...
now you wanna stick slavery tooo .... common homie ... get your facts right. shafique
I agree that a lot of the injustices carried out by Europeans against indiginous people around the world were condoned and encouraged by the Church - however, I make a distinction between the justifications of the land grabs made by the Christian colonials and attributing the spread of Christianity as the main motivator.
The likes of Rhodes in Africa and the East India Company (British) in India are what I'd use in support of this view - that primarily it was a grab for resources (as it has always been in imperial expansions) that was then usurped by Christian missionaries.
I have some sympathy for the view that Apartheid was justified using the Bible.

I'm not sure of the stats - the scale of the transatlantic slave trade was huge, but I would hazard a guess that the justifications used by the Arab slave traders was the same as used by the African slave traders - primarily economic. The Quran does not say it is ok to deal in slaves - other than to pay to secure their release.
That said, I do see modern day slavery going on in the Gulf to this day... but that is purely down to economics!
Anyway - I don't want to appear to be disagreeing with the gist of your argument - that religious reasons have been used in many instances to justify terrorism, enslavement, colonialism etc. I was actually only making the narrow point that as bad as all these incidents were, in my view the numbers killed by non-religously motivated wars/invasions/slavery/colonialism outnumbers the former. Certainly if we look at the 20th century, this is clearly the case - not just the WW, look at all the other major conflicts resulting in mass deaths.
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon
Still spouting out that imaginary number. Let me know when you've combed through the archives and actually counted the number of Iraqi civilians killed by the British military.
We can also see if Blair is actually a religious fanatic - you seem to be inclined to include just any convert but I tend to make a distinction between converts who are religious fanatics to their new religion and ones who are not necessarily motivated to carry out violent attacks (or in this case secular wars) based on the texts and teachings of their religion.
A convert to Islam who later joins up with al-Qaeda and orchestrates attacks against synagogues/Western targets would tend to be categorized in the former rather than the latter category - at least, I would think. event horizon One more radical Muslim convert who carried out armed Jihad...

God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise ; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed ; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him ; that is the mighty triumph. shafique Thanks for the headlines - but I'm a little amused and perplexed at your on-going reluctance to add up your total of actual terrorists who were Muslim converts. My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq) Cheers, Shafique Roadtester
Hey Jamal - chill :D :D think you got the wrong end of what im saying. What I meant was "how did the Islamic world justify slavery?"
As christians had misused the bible I wondered if muslims had done the same? shafique ^ I should really stop being surprised that the web keeps throwing up websites that cover every topic - but there is a site called '': / Makes interesting reading -although I'm sure eh will decide he knows better and will dispute the facts there. ;) Cheers, Shafique event horizon
I haven't even gotten to India yet - there are so many Western converts to Islam who become violent jihadists, that I am still doing research and uncovering new violent attacks carried out by convert Muslim fundamentalists fighting in the name of Islam, that this will take a lot longer than I had expected.
Although, it is humorous to see that you are still floating that unsubstantiated number around and are insisting that Tony Blair is a religious fanatic akin to Muslim converts who join al-Qaeda. But as I said, maybe you'll manage to convince someone that you know what you're talking about. shafique I'm patient and will allow the stats to speak for themselves: My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq) What is your count? Cheers, Shafique event horizon
One more Muslim convert suicide bomber - as far as I know, only converts to Islam have blown themselves up and several more converts have been unsuccessful, such as this guy:

Additionally, one more Muslim convert who shot up a recruiting center in the US:
,2933,524139,00.html
Although he did inflict casualties, they were both soldiers (off duty if I am not mistaken), so I will not include these casualties.
and another attack:
Once again, the victims were in the military and these casualties will not be included - although the violent actions of these converts who were motivated by religion to carry out armed jihad will be included in the tally of Muslim converts who have carried out violent attacks. shafique My count (remains) 232 actual terrorists, 267 killed. (Or 233 terrorists and 10,267 if we include Tony Blair and only count 10,000 civilians killed in Iraq) What is your latest count? Cheers, Shafique event horizon
I agree that your count - assuming the source you've taken your numbers from is correct, is at 232 terrorists, but how many of those terrorists were left wing nutters?
Certainly many (most?) of the members of the NLFT are secular nationalists rather than religious types, as their own manifesto confirms (despite the spin of BBC articles claiming otherwise). shafique Was my question difficult - your count is around 10 now, so surely you can give us an update. Take off your shoes if you having difficulties counting above 10 :wink: But seriously - this whole discussion was started because you believed the Fox News headlines were an accurate reflection of reality and I said that if it were so, then the stats would back it up. As it stands, the stats show that the facts don't match the hype - non-Muslim converts have caused more terror attacks and killed more people than Muslim convert terror attacks. Your 10 convert terrorists vs the over 200 Christian Convert terrorists speaks volumes (as does your inability thus far to count beyond 6 actual terrorists). You even have had to add to your list of 'kills' events that did not directly involve converts (eg Tunisia). As I said, it is interesting that when the stats let you down, you revert to the headlines. I guess the irony is lost on you. Cheers, Shafique shafique Are you having trouble adding up your count? I'll happily add them up for you - can you list the additional actual terrorist converts since the last time we had a count? Cheers, Shafique event horizon Let me know when you have distinguished terror attacks carried out by secular members (and even non Christian members) of the NLFT with the splinter group that allegedly is seeking to create a Christian theocracy. After all your concern of putting substance over headlines, I wouldn't want anyone to think your conclusions are based on sloppy research. shafique I see you are having problems with your count. My count is up to date and counted all the Chrisitan converts who killed in futherance of their cause (and were members of the ' National Holy Army') - and further more, my count is an underestimate because I only counted two per incident where 'terrorists' were reported and no number given. The source of the information was also given - a comprehensive list of all the attacks. So, when will you add up your latest count? Cheers, Shafique shafique Have you conceded defeat, or are you just having difficulty counting beyond 6? :lol: What is your updated count? Cheers, Shafique event horizon What's your updated count taking into consideration that the NFLT has non-Christian and secular members who also carry out terror attacks? shafique
All the ones I've counted are Christian terrorists (and my count is an underestimate) - I've given you the list of terrorist incidents from which I've counted the incidents and you are welcome to recount to check my figures.
So, what is your count?
Cheers
Shafique event horizon I understand you want to believe all of the attacks were carried out by Christian fundamentalists (as opposed to people who happened to be Christian(, but unfortunately BBC headlines do not mesh well with the facts:

So, it's already an established fact that some members of the NLFT aren't even Christian. I guess these high ranking members must not have heard your explanation that because the NLFT has an armed branch called the 'holy army', all the members must therefore be Christian fundamentalists.
Once again, that's also assuming that the NLFT members who are Christians are all fundamentalists, as opposed to a splinter faction. But I can totally understand. Unlike violent Muslim fundamentalists - and there are plenty, you must be very liberal when looking and selecting for Christian terrorist groups. In your case, you must include a group whose own manifesto does not once mention Jesus, Christianity or the New Testament and no where calls for the establishment of a religious theocracy (in fact, the manifesto sounded quite socialistic to me). Let alone that this same group is not even entirely Christian!
But again, what's your update? Are you having difficulty with the question or are you still going to include attacks carried out by non-Christians and secular Christians in your list? shafique As I keep saying, if you disagree with my count - please let me know which of the 232 I counted you disagree with and give us your count of the attacks done by the 'national holy army' rather than those by the breakaway faction (both are terrorists btw). You should find that your count is higher than mine (as I said, I was being conservative). But all that said, I keep asking for your updated count - I'm not sure it's reached 10 yet!! Cheers, Shafique event horizon let me know when you have adjusted your figures to account for non-Christian terror attacks and attacks carried out by secular Christians. shafique My figures only include Christian Convert Terrorists - as I said, you can check and confirm. What is your count? (Why are you avoiding the question - the last count you gave was only 6 or 7) I guess that the stats are causing you concern - it's a shock when reality doesn't live up to a 'belief'!! Cheers, Shafique event horizon
How did you arrive at this count??? shafique I went through the list, started at one, then went to two etc until I exhausted the list. I told you what I included and excluded. I understand that whilst you have only got to 6 and are refusing to update your count, you are a bit daunted by going through the hundreds of incidents listed to verify my count, but I thought you wanted to have statistics back up your belief rather than just blindly believe in your view of the world. Now, what was your count?? Cheers, Shafique event horizon
Cool, so we agree you haven't adjusted your numbers to leave out attacks carried out by non-Christians and secular Christians.
Here are some more violent Muslim converts who have carried out Jihad:
#Siege
Took part in the Beslan school massacre (in fact, he was one of six leaders). Not sure how many civilians he raped, tortured and murdered, but I'm sure it was a lot.

From an article on converts who make up more than half of an Islamist terror group in Russia. shafique :roll: I couldn't see either an updated count for you, or any correction to my underestimate of Christian convert terrorists. I fully understand your reticence to count your numbers - or to back up your contention that my figures are over-estimates (when in fact the opposite is true) - but hey until you update your stats, there's no incentive for me to look for more Christian terrorists (232 is still way ahead the 6 you've counted so far). Also, I presume you are not counting those who killed not because of Islam - eg the snipers in the US - but I'd hate to presume, I'll wait for you to give us an updated count of how many Muslim converts you've counted so far. I agree that the Chechens responsible for Beslan were terrorists - but aren't you the one who is arguing that some NLFT terrorists are 'only' separatist terrorists who happen to be Christian converts!!? Please make up your mind. I say just count all the terrorists who happen to be converts and add up which group has produced more. Thus far, 232 Christians vs around 10 Muslims. We've seen already that this is about right if we count up the violent verses in the Bible vs the Quran (as listed on skepticsannotatedbible) - but I'm still intrigued why you refuse to give your updated count. Cheers, Shafique event horizon
Please pay attention - I mentioned this long ago that the snipers were probably nutters who happened to be Muslims rather than two converts who became nutjobs because of the texts and teachings of Islam:

&highlight=gray+grey#303239

Errr, no. I'm arguing that many members of the NLFT are secularists with a leftist/nationalist ideology and there are several high ranking members who aren't even Christian to begin with.
The 'Chechens' on the other hand (and I use that term loosely because a number of the terrorists were foreigners) were all Muslim fundamentalists seeking to establish an Islamic theocracy. Even though Chechnya was part of the Soviet Union and many insurgents were formers soldiers and officers in the Red army, I can't think of a single Chechen insurgent group whose ideology is Marxist-Leninist.
Regardless, we're only discussing two Islamist insurgent groups - including one group that is made up mostly of Muslim converts and has carried out numerous attacks inside Russia and Chechnya.
My updated count will not include the two US snipers because I don't believe they fit the profiles of people who join Islam and become terrorists. They were probably killing people for some other reason and the prosecution never followed up on a jihad inspired motive for the killings. shafique I'll wait for your updated count then. My count is complete and only contains those terrorist acts carried out by Christian converts and only includes actual terrorist acts, rather than those 'suspected'. They, like the Chechens, were part of the 'National Holy Army'who want to establish a Christian state and were also responsible for converting people forcibly. Therfore my count remains 232 and is an underestimate - what is your count? Cheers, Shafique event horizon
How did you exclude attacks carried out by non-Christian and secular members of the NFLT?

Happy to look at the evidence that the NLFT seeks to establish a Christian theocracy. So far, you have a debunked BBC article and a few dot com websites you've cited. Do you have actual evidence to support your view or are you simply regurgitating BBC spin? shafique The terrorist attacks were carried out by the "National Holy Army" and were undertaken by Christian Converts. As I've said, my figures are not completely accurate - they are an underestimate - the real number is higher than the 232 I have counted and I've invited you to verify this fact. But I understand why you don't want to count my figures - you are having trouble giving us your figure which is around 8 or 9 by now. Cheers, Shafique event horizon
The attacks were carried out by an insurgent group that has non-Christians within its ranks and its manifesto - despite BBC spin, calls for the establishment of a 'workers state'. shafique Sorry, what was your count and what do you think my count should be? I've challenged you a number of times now to back up your claim that my count is inaccurate (when it is just an underestimate). All mouth no trousers, yet again. Is it just because you are embarrassed that despite all your bluster you haven't been able to reach 10 actual terrorists now, whilst I've exceeded 200???? ;) Cheers, Shafique event horizon It should speak volumes that you're not interested in accuracy, rather, associating any group that is loosely associated with Christianity - including one that calls for a 'workers state' to fall under the category of a Christian fundamentalist movement. Let me know when you find that reference in the group's manifesto calling for the establishment of a Christian theocracy. The BBC article seems to think it's there, so I'm sure it is. But please, keep on looking. In the meantime, I'm trying to find out the number of people killed in the terror attacks the article I posted lists but does not provide figures for. shafique Double Yawn. My figures are an underestimate and is 232 actual terrorists. Your figures are yet to make an appearance - at the last count you gave, it stood at 6. Now we just get excuses. Says it all. (Are you really having trouble counting beyond 6??) Cheers, Shafique event horizon Are you having trouble finding that statement in the NLFT's manifesto calling for a religious theocracy? Let me know if you have trouble reading. shafique I'm having absolutely no problems laughing at you lame attempts to divert attention from your count of 6 compared to my under estimate of 232. Christian Convert Terrorists' intentions don't matter much to those 200+ who were killed by them. So tell us, please, what is your latest count? (And feel free to check my numbers - you'll find that there are many more than the 232 I've allowed for). Cheers, Shafique shafique So, we continue to wait to see whether eh can count beyond 6 actual terrorists and whether his count of Christian Convert terrorists is below 232 or not. Cheers, Shafique event horizon Still counting the deaths from the convert Jihad against the russians.... shafique So, you've reached 7 actual terrorists then? Bravo. When you do give your updated count, can you list the new ones (above the 6 already given, so I can check your figures) - I've given you the source for my 232 so you can re-count. Cheers, Shafique shafique Ok, now time to add the statistics from Africa.
Let us start with Uganda's Lords Resistance Army.
This is an army that is made up exclusively of converts to a religion/cult other than Islam (and part of their belief system is based on the Bible - but hardly what I would call 'Christian' unless one goes back to Medieval Christianity).
The stats and atrocities are horrific.
But let us start and establish that they are indeed 1. converts and 2. motivated by religion.
This is a good academic paper on the LRA:

Now, the numbers of LRA fighters vary from 500 to over 2000 - so it may be prudent to take the lowest number for our stats.
There is no doubt that these guys are terrorists and that they are motivated for some weird spiritual reason - they aren't separatists, for example. Perhaps eh will come up with some other reason to not include them - but I can't see why they should be excluded.
However, for the numbers killed in the period 2001 to 2009, we have a number of documented events that we can refer to, and I'll use these to add to my list of non-Muslim convert terrorist victims.
One example is the 2008 Christmas massacre when over 400 (HRW says over 600) people were hacked to death:
(Congo)
I'll use the figure of 400 killed and conservatively add only 100 terrorists to my count. Let us say that another 300, say were injured.
Therefore my count is (after only adding the 2008 LRA massacres):
Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 332
Total killed by these: 647
Total reported injured :388
eh's figures are looking pretty anaemic in comparison!
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon 26+116+12
update:

3 more
(Although Wikipedia claims 4 were killed in the attack)

40 more

10 more
plus, after researching the attacks where casualties aren't provided in the article:


1 more

Possibly referring to the bombing of trains in Mineralnye Vody, but the article says the bombings occurred in 2004 and 2005. I'll exclude this from the count, for now.

The suicide bombing, which was carried out by members of the convert Jihad terror group, murdered ten civilians plus two Jihadists.
10 more
26+116+12+3+40+10+1+10
The count currently stands at 218 civilians murdered by Jihad convert terrorists and hundreds more wounded. event horizon Looks like yet another convert to Islam who became a suicide bomber:

shafique :lol:
Please humour me and present your updated count of convert terrorists, numbers killed and numbers injured.
Here's mine again:

So, it appears you are still behind on the numbers killed front (I reserve the right to examine the numbers you give).
Note that if we include those indirectly killed, then I'll have to add Tony Blair's figures (which I under-estimated at 10,000) - but I'd rather not, let's leave Tony and indirect killings out! ;)
Why the reluctance to count terrorists eh?
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon Tony Blair is not a religious fanatic waging war based on the texts and teachings of his new religion. You seemed to have had a problem with including the DC snipers because they were not waging jihad warfare - rather, they were nut jobs who happened to be Muslim converts. I agreed and I expressed this same issue a long time prior to any complaint you later made. But hey, just to humor me, what about Tony Blair do you think makes him a religious fanatic? His opposition to the death penalty? Support of gay marriage? I'm curious to know. I've never heard someone make that claim of him (besides someone desperate to obscure issues of extremism and conversions in Islam). event horizon Let me know how many converts to other religions have become suicide bombings as well. It seems like only converts to Islam become suicide bombings - which would be a sign of their fanaticism. Strangely, Hindu converts, Christian converts, etc, just aren't as fanatical as Muslim converts are. shafique Are you seriously having trouble counting beyond 6 actual convert terrorists??
It is a bit late in the day to change the parameters - I gave you ample time at the start and agreed to your criteria that we count terrorists.
So, let me repeat,

What is your count now? (Note I'm excluding Tony Blair in the above - if you want to include indirect killings, then I'll include his indirect killings - but I'd rather exclude all indirect killings as they are subjective)
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon
I've never changed the parameters. I was quite clear from the beginning that converts to other religions who carried out violent attacks/engaged in terrorism referred to those individuals who were motivated by the texts and teachings of their religion to do so. In other words, they were religious fundamentalists.
Do you have any reason to suspect that Tony Blair is a religious fundamentalist?
Oh, and how many suicide bombings have converts to other religions carried out? shafique I'm excluding Tony Blair from my figures - I'm only going to include him if you insist on counting those who kill indirectly - and even then, I'll keep the figures separate. As I also said, now asking for numbers of suicide bombers who are converts is moving the goalposts - but if you are interested in this new breakdown - you can go ahead and count. I could counter and say count the number of children killed by the Christian Converts and compare it with the numbers of children in your list - but that is changing the goalposts after the event.
Please try and keep up.
Now, can we have your numbers?
Mine are:

Total number of Terrorist carrying out attacks: 232
Total killed by these: 267
Total reported injured :88

Cheers,
Shafique event horizon Shafique, are you having difficulty with the question? In what way is Tony Blair a religious fundamentalist and the DC snipers are not? shafique Not avoiding any questions - your theory was that Islam caused more converts to resort to terrorism than any other religion. We agreed to test your theory by looking at the stats of terrorists who were converts to Islam and compare that with terrorists who converted from other religions. Tony Blair is a convert to Catholicism and joined in a war which Bush said 'God directed me' to end the tyranny in Iraq. Blair's actions indirectly led to the death of at least tens of thousands of civilians. I made it clear that intentions are subjective and we should rather count bodies - whatever the intentions, killing civilians is an act decent people condemn (but you don't, when it is white Jews doing the killing, it appears). So, Tony Blair is a convert and also indirectly was responsible for the deaths of many civilians. He is a worse criminal than Bin Laden, for example, because his actions have led to more civilians dying and he should be indicted for war crimes. He is a criminal, just like Bin Laden and both are convinced they are doing God's work. Justifying the killing of innocents as something that could not be avoided is my definition of a religious fanatic - but I guess you will make excuses for Blair whilst condemning Bin Laden - but we've established you have a problem with Islam and want to ignore statistics. So, will you now give us your numbers? Cheers, Shafique event horizon Since October 2008, five of the Minnesotans who left have died. A sixth man, a Muslim convert from Minneapolis, also is thought to have been killed. :DKUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU Another convert to Islam killed in international jihad... event horizon
My theory is that Islam produces more violent *religious* extremists than other religions. That theory is still held up. In fact, it's only been reinforced.

Still spreading that lie? According to Bush, he never claimed that God told him to attack Iraq. But in any event, what does that have to do with Tony Blair?

What does that have to do with waging war for religious reasons?

Why don't you provide a figure for how many civilians the British military has killed in Iraq.

Yeah, sure. Tony Blair is a religious extremist just like Osama bin Laden. Do you have any other delusional fantasies you would like to share with me?
Oh, and I still have not seen an answer. How is Blair a religious extremist and the DC snipers are not? shafique Thanks for sharing your views. Very fascinating, but let us compare stats. Now what was your count? Cheers, Shafique



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