'Sober, gloomy and realistic'
By Frank Gardner
Security correspondent, BBC News
Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth has given his first major speech in the job. He said Britain's safe future was dependent on achieving success in Afghanistan - but that would not come without a price in lives lost.
There were no huge surprises in Bob Ainsworth's speech. He has been an understudy for this job for some time, working under John Hutton and has long been immersed in the whole issue of Afghanistan.
Broadly speaking, it was a sober, fairly gloomy and quite realistic speech.
Put simply, Britain is going to take more casualties in Afghanistan and we're going to be there for some time.
The military put these things in terms of operations. Herrick is the codename for Afghanistan - Telic was the codename for Iraq.
Britain is currently on Herrick 10 and every six months that number goes up. They are currently planning for Herrick 15 and there are probably plans for further ahead than that, certainly as far as 2012.
The intention then is to keep thousands of British troops there for a very long time - or at least the foreseeable future - until Afghanistan is stabilised. And that's not going to happen quickly.
+
'Credibility gap'
Mr Ainsworth - and John Hutton before him - have tried to set out clearly why Britain is in Afghanistan in the first place.
But there is a credibility gap here. Most of the country doesn't really understand why we are there.
Indeed, there are holes in the government's argument too. If we are trying to stop al-Qaeda building bases from which to attacking us - well, al-Qaeda doesn't have proper bases in Afghanistan.
Their bases are on the Pakistani side of the border.
The idea that if you have forces in Afghanistan it'll stop al-Qaeda attacking Britain doesn't completely hold water because ministers have said themselves that 75% of the terror plots in this country are linked back to Pakistan.
Really, it would be more accurate to say Nato is trying to keep al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan, while admitting that it has successfully transplanted itself elsewhere.
Moreover, the very fact that there are Western troops in Afghanistan is an incentive, a recruiting agent, for al-Qaeda and other jihadist groups to go and fight the West and drive them out.
It is certainly quite a complicated jigsaw.
+
Bad governance
The priority for Britain and other international troops is to stabilise Afghanistan and to improve people's standard of living.
But it's not just about military success; it's about improving governance too.
Afghanistan is in many provinces quite badly governed with very corrupt policemen who are taking bribes and extorting money from people.
To look at the big picture, Nato and the Brits think they can win pretty much every tactical engagement that they encounter the Taliban in.
Sometimes with difficulty - because they are a very tenacious enemy - but with superior weaponry, training, air support and so on the Taliban can be beaten on the ground.
Crucially, though, that victory is only at a tactical level.
The bigger picture is that fighting is only a small part of the problem in Afghanistan. One of the major problems is bad governance.
Ordinary Afghans are having to decide if life is better in areas contested by Nato or in areas controlled by the Taliban, where they might have to live under draconian rules but at least things are stable. Red Chief It sounds like Russian joke. - May I help you. - No, thanks. I will die myself. Bora Bora
- Red Chief wrote:
It sounds like Russian joke.
- May I help you.
- No, thanks. I will die myself.
Reading your tag, i couldn't figure out who's who. Any help with that RC? :lol: Red Chief With pleasure. I am a little bit tired digging your grave but it's almost finnished. "Needle" is fully loaded. I can start right away, Signora. :clock: I will miss you. Bora Bora
- Red Chief wrote:
With pleasure.
I am a little bit tired digging your grave but it's almost finnished. "Needle" is fully loaded. I can start right away, Signora. :clock:
I will miss you.
Once again, you missed the sarcasm!! Like I didn't know who you were referring to!!! :lol: You walked right into that one. 8)
You are such an idiot.
Please don't leave, to a degree you do serve a purpose, you're fodder for our entertainment. But then again, we don't entertain you, so maybe your should :arrow: . Misery Called Life :lol: Well that was some choice of characters RC. This is brilliant. Time to write the first Dubai Forums Play... :D Red Chief To Signora: Too many words but a long explanation is the main feature of a loser. Swallow it. Speedhump
- Red Chief wrote:
It sounds like Russian joke.
- May I help you.
- No, thanks. I will die myself.
True, it's very dark.
Hey I see I am starring in the theatre now. Très amusant Chief, I am enjoying your slightly higher quality of posts nowadays. :D
I'm sure your appearance is also listed in the programme. Punchinello for sure!
:joker: Red Chief
- Misery Called Life wrote:
:lol: Well that was some choice of characters RC.
This is brilliant. Time to write the first Dubai Forums Play... :D
There is no my copywrite on the characters. With your talent you can easiely write a play. Go ahead! I believe in you! :)
1 Dubai Jobs .com The First Place to Find a Job in Dubai
Bora Bora
- Red Chief wrote:
To Signora:
Too many words but a long explanation is the main feature of a loser. Swallow it.
Well you must be choking on your words Chief. So much so that you are constantly dribbling. rudeboy the longer they live there, more and more of british or nato soilders will die. simple as that. is the british public ready to watch their sons and daughters die in afghanistan for a wasteless war? uaekid
- Speedhump wrote:
We should not just be asking ''should Britain be in Afghanistan", we should be asking "do you think ordinary Afghans should be abandoned and thereby forced to just 'give in' to the Taliban"?
Should their women be forced to wear the burqa? Should schools be closed and their daughters denied education and advancement? Should the Afghan people be denied the basic enjoyment of music?
Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan', what about all of this?
Women tell own stories of Taliban oppression.
No memoirs of world tragedy are more wrenching than those based on the recollections of a nation's young people. (etc.)
Cape Times, South Africa: Taliban attacks musicians at Afghan wedding
Source: Androscoggin News
Jalalalbad, Afghanistan
Taliban fighters beat musicians, shaved their heads and left them tied to trees overnight because they performed at an Afghan wedding, a village tribal chief said yesterday, a sign of the fighters' growing influence. While in power from 1996-2001, the Taliban banned music for being un-Islamic.
++
Any views?
Does any of the above get solved by guns & bombs?
Make them homes and provide them with jobs. Other alternative than joining a fight or planting drugs.
the war is not a bout the music or the burqa or the enjoyment of music. cant you see ? Speedhump
- uaekid wrote:
- Speedhump wrote:
We should not just be asking ''should Britain be in Afghanistan", we should be asking "do you think ordinary Afghans should be abandoned and thereby forced to just 'give in' to the Taliban"?
Should their women be forced to wear the burqa? Should schools be closed and their daughters denied education and advancement? Should the Afghan people be denied the basic enjoyment of music?
Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan', what about all of this?
Women tell own stories of Taliban oppression.
No memoirs of world tragedy are more wrenching than those based on the recollections of a nation's young people. (etc.)
Cape Times, South Africa: Taliban attacks musicians at Afghan wedding
Source: Androscoggin News
Jalalalbad, Afghanistan
Taliban fighters beat musicians, shaved their heads and left them tied to trees overnight because they performed at an Afghan wedding, a village tribal chief said yesterday, a sign of the fighters' growing influence. While in power from 1996-2001, the Taliban banned music for being un-Islamic.
++
Any views?
Does any of the above get solved by guns & bombs?
Make them homes and provide them with jobs. Other alternative than joining a fight or planting drugs.
the war is not a bout the music or the burqa or the enjoyment of music. cant you see ? - Speedhump wrote:
I think your comment just proves that you didn't read and understand the BBC article correctly.
"The bigger picture is that fighting is only a small part of the problem in Afghanistan. One of the major problems is bad governance.
Ordinary Afghans are having to decide if life is better in areas contested by Nato or in areas controlled by the Taliban, where they might have to live under draconian rules but at least things are stable."
Also you ignored my comment "Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan'". I did not want this to turn into another tired old thread about the reasons for the war. I thought we could dicuss something more interesting, like what Afghans really need. Is it Taliban or is it something else? If it's not Taliban rule they need, tell me how to get rid of them without fighting?
Shame you want to keep playing the same old record kid :(
As you said, they need help to grow legal cash crops, but they DO also need education for their females, and they do need music, we all do. It is one thing that lifts us above the animal and feeds our spirit. Taliban control won't give them these things, will it?
Come on, try again. ;) Red Chief I guess you should think how to save your arses there. It's exactly what you do sitting in your harrisons and keeping Kabul and a few big cities. The small casualties (if the inf. is true) show it. It isn't your land. You cannot bomb vilages by drons and aircrafts and build school and fight for rights of women at the same time. If you don't have security you cannot do anything else. As a result of your hypophetical noble forces you would receive a huge immigration in the end. Afgani is the biggest community in Russia from non-CIS nations. You continue countining Talliban as a small terrorist organization. It's the biggest mistake. I don't think that you can establish stable peace there without their partisipation. I'm sorry, Speedy, but all those calls sound like propoganda for domestic (British) use only. It was made to persuade Brits continue this pointless for Brits war which they were involved by their Big Brother. uaekid
- Speedhump wrote:
Also you ignored my comment "Irrespective, for a moment, of your opinions on 'why the West went into Afghanistan'". I did not want this to turn into another tired old thread about the reasons for the war. I thought we could dicuss something more interesting, like what Afghans really need. Is it Taliban or is it something else? If it's not Taliban rule they need, tell me how to get rid of them without fighting?
Shame you want to keep playing the same old record kid :(
I'm playing nothing speedhumps and I can't understand politics :)
like I said before , lets take a step back and ask ourselves what are Taliban ? they are a bunch of leaders with many followers .... why is it so many of them Afghani youth follow their leads ? because they made them believe the west is the enemy and as you can see you are helping them prove their point ... if you want to get rid of Taliban you have to start deep from the rout and ask your self how did Taliban emerged ? to fight the enemy . well ,who is the enemy ? it's those ppl dropping bombs on us for no reason ? well ok lets fight back and get revenge.
instead , the UN should've taken a diff approach on getting to those followers by sucking them into the more moderated cities by building them homes and providing them jobs ..
now what would Taliban be within a couple of years ? nothing but leaders whom they got no one to recruit .
This is how you get rid of Taliban .
You see maybe you see Taliban as an enemy to the world but to them follower it’s the other way around, Taliban provides all kind if adds to the families out their !! shocking ? yes but the media is only showing the other side of Taliban… but you have to understand that there are ppl who actually want to be with them for their good side !! that’s where you should attack them , provide those adds in a better way, reach your hand not your gun. Speedhump We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'? Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that. Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution. Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same. Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries): Hamida Ghafour July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT Hey, woman, wash my clothes!” “How much do you cost?” When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung. Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly. Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment. The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare. By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned." Also: "Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason. Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head." Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world ;) rudeboy afghanistan is a dirty country with dirty politics. taliban or no taliban, the person who owns many tanks, weapons and men rules the afghans. they take their black turbans off and put on the white ones for the Americans. They have 2 faces and they can switch over whenever it is convienant to them. its a BLOODY mess. Only thing thats making USA stay there is because of natural gas, oil and minerals in that Country. They dont care about the development in that country, because it is a failed country. they know if they invest there, tommorow some warlord will come and bomb it up unless he gets his share of money or if he gets his share of money for the road that runs through his land. yep its true. seen it and witnessed it myself. AS for OBL, why do you think he was able to escape Tora Bora? I guess he was able to give loads of money to his enemy i.e the northern alliance and just walk off into the Hindu Kush or other parts of Afghanistan. Money talks. And if your enemy is poor and you offer them $100,000.00 do you think they will not take it? So can the Americans really trust the Northern Alliance or other warlords? I guess they cant. What USA doesnt understand is that Afghans are revengeful bunch of ppl. its in their blood. its in the phushtun blood. if usa bombs an innocent family by mistake or whatever, if their is a survivor there is 99% chance that survivor will take arms against USA. I mean who wouldnt? if you dont have a job, your country is in a mess, your country has been taken over by an un-islamic force and your family has just been killed by USA, would you just sit there and do nothing? Good luck to the Americans. More bombings, more suicide bombings will create more and more bin ladins. not today, not tommorow but yes down 20 to 30 years these ppl will re-surface and create another 9/11 (if it really was carried out by AQ). whats really puzzling is that nearly all the ppl who carried out 9/11 were either arabs or pakistanis. Yet i didnt see any arab countries or pakistan been attacked. but afghanistan was? why? because al qaeda has training camps there? ok fair enough. but why put afghanistan in a civil war when no afghan took part in 9/11? what the americans didnt do was to stop the funding and yet they still havent. AQ is still being funded. by who? thats what USA needs to adress. i guess they wont cos they attacked Afghanistan not for OBL or AQ but for minerals, natural gas and oil. uaekid
- Speedhump wrote:
We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?
Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.
Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.
Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.
Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):
Hamida Ghafour
July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT
Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”
“How much do you cost?”
When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.
Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.
Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.
The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.
By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."
Also:
"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.
Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."
Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world ;)
but in the civilized world sexual harassment is way higher than any place else !! why are you abusing your women speedhumps ? I don't get it, whats this has to with the issue ? women are home bcz they are house wives !! don't you have this back home ? Isn’t there a possibility that they choose to stay home bcz there is not much to do in the mountings areas?
what is it with you ppl and the burqa now a days , can't you see it is just a custom wear ppl ?
- Red Chief wrote:
It's rather hypocratic to bring up women's rights, which most people in Afganistan don't know about, in time when Afghans are killed in thousands.
Sitting in home is probably safer.
Who is doing the killing? Not me, how am I a hypocrite?
I think from your general comments in these forums that women count for little in your world. You are a huge mysoginist I think, therefore this comment of yours should come as no surprise. Speedhump
- uaekid wrote:
- Speedhump wrote:
We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?
Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.
Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.
Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.
Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):
Hamida Ghafour
July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT
Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”
“How much do you cost?”
When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.
Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.
Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.
The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.
By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."
Also:
"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.
Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."
Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world ;)
but in the civilized world sexual harassment is way higher than any place else !! why are you abusing your women speedhumps ? I don't get it, whats this has to with the issue ? women are home bcz they are house wives !! don't you have this back home ? Isn’t there a possibility that they choose to stay home bcz there is not much to do in the mountings areas?
what is it with you ppl and the burqa now a days , can't you see it is just a custom wear ppl ? - Speedhump wrote:
Here's how it goes. Sexual harassment is reported in the west, so you know all about it. How much of it goes unreported in the Muslim world? You really have no idea and you know that the secrecy is the worst crime and you also know that it is normal to hush these things up for Arabs, just like you do with all other things you are ashamed of.
You are truly blind. This article was written by a woman. Did you even bother to read it? I am 100 percent certain you didn't. And look at her name. Does it look Western to you?
Did I mention the burqa? No, but you trot out the same boring old comments over and over again. It was the writer that mentioned it. As I said to you, you are unable to change the record you play. This woman is crying about the treatment that women receive in Kabul, Saudi, Egypt, etc. and all you can do is say that women are happy and should stay as housewives.
Shame on you. :roll: Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
Who is doing the killing? Not me, how am I a hypocrite?
I think from your general comments in these forums that women count for little in your world. You are a huge mysoginist I think, therefore this comment of yours should come as no surprise.
Don't take it personal. We discussed article, right? I expressed my opinion about article, not you. It's not necessary to be so defensive.
I've always respected you. Speedhump I am just a little sad that you feel that because Afghanistan has other problems, then the Talibani oppression of women is insignificant. It was you who mentioned the word hypocritical, concerning the highlighting of this evil. As I am putting forward the cause, then by extension you must be calling me a hypocrite, there is no way around that! ;) Your witness! (legal phrase) :D Red Chief I said what I said that security is the main problem. Nobody can decide any other problem if there is the permanent threat for the life in Afghanistan. All those articles remind me British propoganda about raping Belgian women by German soldiers at the beginning of WWI. The Kingdom has always been very strong in that. Speedhump All sides use propaganda in war. All. 'The first casualty of war is truth' . Besides, just because something is used as propaganda, it doesn't mean that it isn't true. Dr. Samuel Johnson (English 18th century author and lexicographer) said it first: 'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from The Idler, 1758). uaekid
- Speedhump wrote:
- uaekid wrote:
- Speedhump wrote:
We know that the US did not have philanthropic aims when they invaded, but now they are there, my question is 'what good can be made to come of it'?
Unfortunately you can't just walk into a country ruled by Taliban and say 'Hi, we're the U.N., here's five billion dollars, go plant some whatever, let women get an education, re-open a few schools, etc. IT WON'T HAPPEN. The Taliban have a vested interest (as you said) in making the West and the UN look like devils. They won't hand out money given by the West like that.
Taliban very clearly have to be removed first, I guess the only options are either by war or revolution.
Your line that Taliban are good and kind to Afghans sounds so lovely, except when you consider their beliefs, like 'a women should either be in the home or the graveyard'. Compare it to the very modern attitude towards women which is starting to become accepted in the UAE, and you must see that you can't treat all countries the same.
Please read this very interesting article in today's The National for treatment of women in many Muslim countries (the journalist confims in the article that she wears modest and respectable clothes when in Muslim countries):
Hamida Ghafour
July 10. 2009 9:52PM UAE / July 10. 2009 5:52PM GMT
Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”
“How much do you cost?”
When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.
Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.
Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.
The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.
By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned."
Also:
"Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt , harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.
Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head."
Etc...read the whole article. It does also say that Emirati men generally are polite and well behaved towards women. My wife also would echo this. Younger men of course can misbehave, just like any country in the world ;)
but in the civilized world sexual harassment is way higher than any place else !! why are you abusing your women speedhumps ? I don't get it, whats this has to with the issue ? women are home bcz they are house wives !! don't you have this back home ? Isn’t there a possibility that they choose to stay home bcz there is not much to do in the mountings areas?
what is it with you ppl and the burqa now a days , can't you see it is just a custom wear ppl ? - Speedhump wrote:
Here's how it goes. Sexual harassment is reported in the west, so you know all about it. How much of it goes unreported in the Muslim world? You really have no idea and you know that the secrecy is the worst crime and you also know that it is normal to hush these things up for Arabs, just like you do with all other things you are ashamed of.
You are truly blind. This article was written by a woman. Did you even bother to read it? I am 100 percent certain you didn't. And look at her name. Does it look Western to you?
Did I mention the burqa? No, but you trot out the same boring old comments over and over again. It was the writer that mentioned it. As I said to you, you are unable to change the record you play. This woman is crying about the treatment that women receive in Kabul, Saudi, Egypt, etc. and all you can do is say that women are happy and should stay as housewives.
Shame on you. :roll: - uaekid wrote:
you seems upset speedhumps, I'm not taking a personal attack on you !!
now, Sexual harassment is what it is and it does not matter if it's being reported or not, it accrue and that's the point , you brought it to justify the issue in hand, didn't you ?
No one is blind of anything speedhumps and I'm not denying anything, it's just that you brought a general issue to the subject and I'm trying to tell you that it is not one of the top 100 reason why Taliban should be changed.
But if the west including you in this matter speedhumps really cares , answer me this and let me believe in you, since when Tliban was in the region? who created and supported them ? where were you since that date ?
I bit you don't have an answer to all of the above , so lets just drop it.
regarding the women in Taliban speedhumps, you have to understand the culture , believes and the life style, what do you expect uneducated women in mountain areas and in WAR ZONE to do , will you be realistic ? look at the hall picture there ! because of years of conflict between western countries that part of the world did not evolve and get developed... they were caught in the middle of cross fire, the west used them for their dirty interests and needs. So to me it's the west world cause not Taliban to begin with. .
women issues are global, and women are still fighting their rights world wide and being abused, if you don't wana believe it and only see the other part of the world that has this problem then I'm sorry you are the one with a problems here. Speedhump I don't have a problem and women's problems in the Middle East ad the Subcontinent as a whole are far greater than in Europe, North America, Civilised Asia, you name it. I'm not attacking you personally either, but I am so disappointed you can't have one of these conversations without over and over and over asking about why Taliban are there, why the UN are there, etc, etc. That absolutely did not have to cloud the issue that I tried to talk about of what needs to be done in Afghanistan NOW to help it. Afghanistan has been a battleground long before Europe took a hand either. Stop trying to lay all the blame at one door. There is nothing to 'drop' as you say, because that was not even a subject of my thread. And who is blaming 'mountain' women for anything? Not me. I am saying Afghan women (in cities as much as 'mountains') want to be educated, they want their daughters to go to schools and universities. Ther being provincial has nothing whatever to do with it, they still want better lives for their daughters, and the Taliban kill them for it. That's not a 'global' occurrence, now is it? You are just laying smokescreens again. It is a very big reason why the Taliban should go, it is part of their generally debased view of Islam. I believe that your low opinion of women does not allow you to accept that. Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
Besides, just because something is used as propaganda, it doesn't mean that it isn't true.
It COULD be truth. I'm not sure, because at first you copied and pasted the articles writthen by BBC , the agency I blindly trust. There were nothing about "horrror of Talliban".
Then you chose American and S. African source, which based on story of one or two witnesses. I can't trust in these blindly.
Anyway any propaganda has the goal. For me this propaganda sounds like - "We have to shed blood like water to protect some educated women". Speedhump The BBB article didn't mention women. I did. My whole point in this thread has not been to discuss why the invasion, there have been enough thread devoted almost totally to that. I wanted to ask, for a change, what needs to be done and how can it be done to help Afghanistan now. That includes treatment of women, but is not limited to it. No BBC propaganda here, read the first (BBC) article again, it is very 'warts and all'. uaekid
- Speedhump wrote:
I don't have a problem and women's problems in the Middle East ad the Subcontinent as a whole are far greater than in Europe, North America, Civilised Asia, you name it.
I'm not attacking you personally either, but I am so disappointed you can't have one of these conversations without over and over and over asking about why Taliban are there, why the UN are there, etc, etc. That absolutely did not have to cloud the issue that I tried to talk about of what needs to be done in Afghanistan NOW to help it. Afghanistan has been a battleground long before Europe took a hand either. Stop trying to lay all the blame at one door.
There is nothing to 'drop' as you say, because that was not even a subject of my thread.
And who is blaming 'mountain' women for anything? Not me. I am saying Afghan women (in cities as much as 'mountains') want to be educated, they want their daughters to go to schools and universities. Ther being provincial has nothing whatever to do with it, they still want better lives for their daughters, and the Taliban kill them for it. That's not a 'global' occurrence, now is it? You are just laying smokescreens again.
It is a very big reason why the Taliban should go, it is part of their generally debased view of Islam. I believe that your low opinion of women does not allow you to accept that.
I'm not blaming anyone I'm just pointing facts that led to the situation in hand ,why are being offensive ?
women will get all what they want when the region will be safer and ppl can have a normal life now this will not happen unless the west stop fighting to get a peace of the pie.
I'm not denying women rights or think low of women ( got 3 stupid sisters with PHD but thanks for the accusation) , I'm just saying that area is not suitable yet for such needs and it's not just bcz of Taliban as you pointed but also bcz of powers conflict that will not stop by Taliban leaving, others will be created by the western powers to serve their needs, this has been happening since ever. the US used Taliban against Russia ,the other party used them against the US and so on, they really didn't have time to build schools or open a music stores.
this is a political forum speedhumps so I thought of linking both women needs with the situation and I thought that was your aim and when want to discuss an issue please do discuss it with realists views not wishes.
women there can cry all they want but they and you want to support their rights then you should talk to those governments and ask them to forget those needs they have in that region.
If you just want to talk about women rights regardless of political issues caused by it then please do post this thread in the general chat. uaekid
- Speedhump wrote:
I don't have a problem and women's problems in the Middle East ad the Subcontinent as a whole are far greater than in Europe, North America, Civilised Asia, you name it.
I'm not attacking you personally either, but I am so disappointed you can't have one of these conversations without over and over and over asking about why Taliban are there, why the UN are there, etc, etc. That absolutely did not have to cloud the issue that I tried to talk about of what needs to be done in Afghanistan NOW to help it. Afghanistan has been a battleground long before Europe took a hand either. Stop trying to lay all the blame at one door.
There is nothing to 'drop' as you say, because that was not even a subject of my thread.
And who is blaming 'mountain' women for anything? Not me. I am saying Afghan women (in cities as much as 'mountains') want to be educated, they want their daughters to go to schools and universities. Ther being provincial has nothing whatever to do with it, they still want better lives for their daughters, and the Taliban kill them for it. That's not a 'global' occurrence, now is it? You are just laying smokescreens again.
It is a very big reason why the Taliban should go, it is part of their generally debased view of Islam. I believe that your low opinion of women does not allow you to accept that.
I'm not blaming anyone I'm just pointing facts that led to the situation in hand ,why are being offensive ?
women will get all what they want when the region will be safer and ppl can have a normal life now this will not happen unless the west stop fighting to get a peace of the pie.
I'm not denying women rights or think low of women ( got 3 stupid sisters with PHD but thanks for the accusation) , I'm just saying that area is not suitable yet for such needs and it's not just bcz of Taliban as you pointed but also bcz of powers conflict that will not stop by Taliban leaving, others will be created by the western powers to serve their needs, this has been happening since ever. the US used Taliban against Russia ,the other party used them against the US and so on, they really didn't have time to build schools or open a music stores.
this is a political forum speedhumps so I thought of linking both women needs with the situation and I thought that was your aim and when want to discuss an issue please do discuss it with realists views not wishes.
women there can cry all they want but they and you want to support their rights then you should talk to those governments and ask them to forget those needs they have in that region.
If you just want to talk about women rights regardless of political issues caused by it then please do post this thread in the general chat. Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
No BBC propaganda here, read the first (BBC) article again, it is very 'warts and all'.
Speedy, don't fight with yourself. I confirmed that there were nothing about "horrror of Talliban" in BBC article. It's to the question how I "hate" all British.
As for what you should do I think the resistance of Najibullah was a good experience. His regime fought a few years with minimum support after Soviet Union withdrew their troops and collapsed only after Russia stopped fuel supply.
I am not sure that puppet Karzai has enough ability but who knows?
Of cause you should've done roads, schools, bridges and pipelines on the loyal territities as SU had done but you did almost nothing in comparable time. It was out of US business model. Red Chief Double post. Speedhump
- uaekid wrote:
- Speedhump wrote:
I don't have a problem and women's problems in the Middle East ad the Subcontinent as a whole are far greater than in Europe, North America, Civilised Asia, you name it.
I'm not attacking you personally either, but I am so disappointed you can't have one of these conversations without over and over and over asking about why Taliban are there, why the UN are there, etc, etc. That absolutely did not have to cloud the issue that I tried to talk about of what needs to be done in Afghanistan NOW to help it. Afghanistan has been a battleground long before Europe took a hand either. Stop trying to lay all the blame at one door.
There is nothing to 'drop' as you say, because that was not even a subject of my thread.
And who is blaming 'mountain' women for anything? Not me. I am saying Afghan women (in cities as much as 'mountains') want to be educated, they want their daughters to go to schools and universities. Ther being provincial has nothing whatever to do with it, they still want better lives for their daughters, and the Taliban kill them for it. That's not a 'global' occurrence, now is it? You are just laying smokescreens again.
It is a very big reason why the Taliban should go, it is part of their generally debased view of Islam. I believe that your low opinion of women does not allow you to accept that.
I'm not blaming anyone I'm just pointing facts that led to the situation in hand ,why are being offensive ?
women will get all what they want when the region will be safer and ppl can have a normal life now this will not happen unless the west stop fighting to get a peace of the pie.
I'm not denying women rights or think low of women ( got 3 stupid sisters with PHD but thanks for the accusation) , I'm just saying that area is not suitable yet for such needs and it's not just bcz of Taliban as you pointed but also bcz of powers conflict that will not stop by Taliban leaving, others will be created by the western powers to serve their needs, this has been happening since ever. the US used Taliban against Russia ,the other party used them against the US and so on, they really didn't have time to build schools or open a music stores.
this is a political forum speedhumps so I thought of linking both women needs with the situation and I thought that was your aim and when want to discuss an issue please do discuss it with realists views not wishes.
women there can cry all they want but they and you want to support their rights then you should talk to those governments and ask them to forget those needs they have in that region.
If you just want to talk about women rights regardless of political issues caused by it then please do post this thread in the general chat. - Speedhump wrote:
I'm glad I am wrong on your opinion of women. they are allowed to do well in UAE anyway by an enlightened government..
But it is wrong to divert attention away form the treatment of women by the Taliban. This is just one more way to show the evils of their rule. I certainly didn't say it was not a political matter, but I did say that it is boring that you can't discuss Afghanistan without digging your shovel in every single one of your posts into the who invaded and why, thing. It really is not the only subject to discuss in that country. But you can't leave it alone. That is the sum total of your political discussion about Afganistan! And you're not the only one who thinks that is where discussion of Afghanistan begins and ends.....
Schools were built by the UN, music was played, men were allowed to try to express a little emotion and (for example) grow their hair how they wanted. You don't understand that these are the many small things that give THE PEOPLE of a nation hope and confidence. This is being crushed again by fear of Talibani retribution. Speedhump
- Red Chief wrote:
- Speedhump wrote:
No BBC propaganda here, read the first (BBC) article again, it is very 'warts and all'.
Speedy, don't fight with yourself. I confirmed that there were nothing about "horrror of Talliban" in BBC article. It's to the question how I "hate" all British.
As for what you should do I think the resistance of Najibullah was a good experience. His regime fought a few years with minimum support after Soviet Union withdrew their troops and collapsed only after Russia stopped fuel supply.
I am not sure that puppet Karzai has enough ability but who knows?
Of cause you should've done roads, schools, bridges and pipelines on the loyal territities as SU had done but you did almost nothing in comparable time. It was out of US business model. - Speedhump wrote:
Surely the US/UN/UK are encouraging Afghanistan to rebuild itself. There have been many billions of dollars poured into the country for this purpose. I suggest that USSR's high-handed approach was because it saw the country as a new dominion, and was prepared to be high-handed in its treatment of the country. Did USSR declare an intention to leave the country after their insurgents were installed? I don't have that information.
USSR (and Russia before) has had designs on Afghanistan since the 1800's (as did the UK at that time). Red Chief I'll tell you a Russian joke. What's the difference between Englishman and Jew? Englishman leaves without saying "Good bye" but Jew says "Good buy" and don't leave. Speedhump Yes there is a problem with Russian humour. It hardly exists! Is that your answer to my question? Red Chief You again remember old history. Russian Empire was over 90 and SU left Afghanistan 20 years ago. You asked what Brits should do for Afghanistan. I replied - "Pack suitcases, buy tickets and leave." Speedhump No, they should do that for Britain. rudeboy
- Red Chief wrote:
I'll tell you a Russian joke.
What's the difference between Englishman and Jew?
Englishman leaves without saying "Good bye" but Jew says "Good buy" and don't leave.
:D Red Chief I also want to do something for Britain. Some coins weight down a pocket of my trousers. I can pour out two or three dirhams for tickets to London for brave British soldiers. Speedhump Unintelligible Red Chief What was unclear in my post? You wrote that "they" (probably poor Afghans) should help Britain in packing and buying tickets because Britain has some financial problem probably. That's why I'd like to help its soldiers to return home and avoid your acusation in my hating of all British in the future. Peace? Speedhump I see. I didn't say anything like that. What I said was it would for me be better for Britain if our troops left, not better for Afghanistan. I said nothing about finances. I only was talking politically. It was anyway your tag line that had me scratching my head. I would not have bothered to reply to your comment re Dirhams. Red Chief Speedy, my friend, land from your British war horse please. You had much better sence of humour riding a camel. 8) 8) 8) Speedhump I'm too busy to be witty today! :P Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
I'm too busy to be witty today! :P
See you tomorrow with your sparkling English humour.
Speedhump It's from a comedy show called Big Train. It was favourite of mine. :) Red Chief Sounds a little bit Frenchy though. :tongue1: Speedhump no, very English accents, like mine, maybe not like the voices ones hears in Yalumba after 3 pm on a Friday :( Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
no, very English accents, like mine, maybe not like the voices ones hears in Yalumba after 3 pm on a Friday :(
I didn't mean their accents but the situation. rudeboy
- Red Chief wrote:
I also want to do something for Britain. Some coins weight down a pocket of my trousers. I can pour out two or three dirhams for tickets to London for brave British soldiers.
can i make a donation to the British Army too :D would 50 pence do the trick. :D Speedhump bandwagon jumping pussy Red Chief Speedy, you have a powerful rival now. This Eastern European has even more warlike attitude. :)
France committed to Afghan mission, says Sarkozy
Article published on the 2009-07-14 Latest update 2009-07-14 14:03 TU
Despite an increase in attacks by the Taliban and a growing debate in Britain on its involvement in Afghanistan, France remains committed to the international forces there, Sarkozy said.
Recalling last year's attack on French soldiers, in which ten died, Sarkozy said that there is no backing down in face of the Islamist movement.
" We are not going to allow the return of the Taliban, who cut off the hands of young girls who wore nail varnish , who decided that girls couldn't go to school, who shut up women in the burka, who stoned so-called adulterers," he said. "We can't allow that."
France will invest 377 billion euros in the military over the next 12 years, Sarokzy announced, saying that it will be put towards modern intelligence-gathering and protective equipment.
Responding to concerns that a recent defence review will reduce the number of troops and bases, Sarkozy said that the troops will be better armed and protected and that they are adapting with "brio" to the changes.
"The challenge for tomorrow is to have a France, with its 65 million people, recognised as a great power . That our voice be heard," he said.
http://www.rfi.fr/actuen/articles/115/article_4333.asp
- Speedhump wrote:
You are always too quick to point the finger at Britain being Great (which of course it is). ;)
I like your logic and sence of humour.
8) 8) 8)
Begging for a lift.
Now we are borrowing Russian helicopters to fight the Taliban
Read more:
Speedhump Disgraceful.....many years of socialist UK goverment, who hate to spend money on defence, police, etc. Did my eyes deceive me or does this article call Russia a Third World country???? Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
Did my eyes deceive me or does this article call Russia a Third World country????
I don't know. Probably. They puke in the cabines but are forced to use, poor guys. :)
To be frank, Speedy, I didn't know that current situation with British troops there is so grim. I'm afraid but further presence or withdrawl 9000 troops and 20 helicopters will hardly change the war. Red Chief It turns out that lack of helicopters isn't the only problem of Brits in Afghanistan. Another problem is pushing Tommy into helicopter. 8) 8) 8) Overweight soldiers holding the Army back in Afghanistan, leaked memo claims Misery Called Life
- Red Chief wrote:
It turns out that lack of helicopters isn't the only problem of Brits in Afghanistan. Another problem is pushing Tommy into helicopter.
8) 8) 8)
Overweight soldiers holding the Army back in Afghanistan, leaked memo claims
Don't forget highly medicated soldiers as well! Speedhump Trotsky you are a racist pure and simple. I think I need to start pointing out what your disgusting country is doing, which is being condemned by the whole civilised world. Russia is the hooligan of the world. I'll be starting new threads daily, after today. Is it because you are so ashamed of your own country that you poke fun at mine? Please elucidate: Kazbek Djiloev told Amnesty International about his experience of the attack on his house in a residential area in Tskhinvali on the night of August 7: "I was drinking tea and suddenly I heard gunfire followed by tanks, artillery…we all went downstairs. Two hours later I heard explosions, the house shook, the roof exploded and GRAD missiles fell on our house. The sofa and other stuff caught fire. We heard an airplane and it aimed at us and started firing at us with a machine gun. My brother and I hid downstairs again. After a while another GRAD fell and half of the house was destroyed. I was in shock. The Georgians claim that they fired at positions of Russian soldiers. This is a lie. There was no soldier here. They were firing at peaceful citizens. There was nothing military here. I was here with my brother and mother … Now I don’t have a house. The weather is fine right now and I can sleep in the garden, but I don’t know what to do when the rain comes. Nobody is helping me. I’ll never be able to restore the house because I don’t have the money." Speedhump The village of Tamarsheni, which was mostly inhabited by ethnic Georgians before the conflict, shows no damage at all on August 10. Nine days later, the satellite imagery analysis identified 152 damaged structures, a large proportion of the total number of structures in the village. +++ You liKe to talk about the bombing of Dresden, don't you.... Speedhump Thug Red Chief If you want to start a new thread start it but separately. Don't trash own thread. Have a self-respect. 8) 8) 8) This thread is about Tommies in Afghanistan. My post isn't off-topic but only citation from British media. Speedhump I already said that I would, but in retrospect, frankly I don't think you deserve the attention. :D Red Chief Speedie, Why did you call me racist? As far as I understand you and me are the same race. You are not four-wheels , are you? :shock: And a little philosophy. If you are going to do something do it. Otherwise I will think that my suspicion about your balls or rather absence of them is not baseless. 8) 8) 8) Bora Bora
- Red Chief wrote:
Speedie,
Why did you call me racist? As far as I understand you and me are the same race. You are not four-wheels , are you? :shock:
And a little philosophy. If you are going to do something do it. Otherwise I will think that my suspicion about your balls or rather absence of them is not baseless.
8) 8) 8)
A racist justifying his behavior. The jews in Russia were of the same "race" as you but yet you have displayed your hated for them. Racism isn't only about skin color - which is what I gather you are referring to when you say that you and SH "are the same race". Red Chief
- Bora Bora wrote:
- Red Chief wrote:
Speedie,
Why did you call me racist? As far as I understand you and me are the same race. You are not four-wheels , are you? :shock:
And a little philosophy. If you are going to do something do it. Otherwise I will think that my suspicion about your balls or rather absence of them is not baseless.
8) 8) 8)
A racist justifying his behavior. The jews in Russia were of the same "race" as you but yet you have displayed your hated for them. Racism isn't only about skin color - which is what I gather you are referring to when you say that you and SH "are the same race". - Red Chief wrote:
8) 8) 8)
bwa-ha-ha=ha Speedhump
- Red Chief wrote:
Speedie,
Why did you call me racist? As far as I understand you and me are the same race. You are not four-wheels , are you? :shock:
And a little philosophy. If you are going to do something do it. Otherwise I will think that my suspicion about your balls or rather absence of them is not baseless.
8) 8) 8)
I think we already know who is the timid coward here, who had no reply and covered it by a sudden and rather unbelievable turnaround, in claiming to not wish to trash a thread. OK Cinderella, your wish can come true. :D :D
:roll: uaekid
- Red Chief wrote:
Speedie,
Why did you call me racist? As far as I understand you and me are the same race. You are not four-wheels , are you ? :shock:
And a little philosophy. If you are going to do something do it. Otherwise I will think that my suspicion about your balls or rather absence of them is not baseless.
8) 8) 8)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :oops: Speedhump Pathetic little shit. As an arab you are of course a jew-hater right? I'm not the same as the russian, or you, I am a tolerant world citizen like most peope who post messages here. You lizards can carry on living under rocks for all your lives, marhaba :D :D uaekid oh comaan , don’t be a tied ass, choc is doing that part, but u got to give it to Red Chief, the four-wheel was a funny part, lighten up well yaa :) ps. jew-hater is the least u can call me when it comes to those pigs. Speedhump you just said all that anyone needs to know about you. Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
I am a tolerant world citizen like most peope who post messages here. You lizards can carry on living under rocks for all your lives, marhaba :D :D
Hm. The citizen of the World? :roll: You definitely are, Sleazy Sid. 8) RobbyG Is this the special edition topic of The Brit vs Commie Show? Great Humprey versus Backstabbin' Ivan :D Speedhump It's no contest, I always wipe the floor with him. Anway he won't be following me round licking my butt for much longer, he has a new infatuation: Gay Russians claim bare-chested Putin as one of their own. :D Red Chief Fairy photos again. You told everybody around that you like women, but notably speak with them. :wink: Do you want to be as fit as Mr. Putin? You don't have balls for that. Forget. 8) Speedhump I suppose you just club women over the head with your massive intellect and drag them back to your cave. Ape. :naka: I bet they love the living carpet on your back. Red Chief Take it easy, buddy. It was only a light banter, at least from my side. 8)
By the way I'm in Moscow now and so there are a lot of good-looking girls around. That's why the biggest problem is to chose some lady to carry her away to my cave then. :) After Dubai they all look extremely attractive. :D
Have a nice week-end! Speedhump I just imagine you covered in hair, that's in my nightmares of course. :shock: You're on holiday, or left your car at Dubai airport with the keys behind the sun visor? :pirate: I'm off to the UK for a few days tomorrow, to a house with no internet, so I won't be available to taunt you. Enjoy the peace :P :D Red Chief
- Speedhump wrote:
You're on holiday, or left your car at Dubai airport with the keys behind the sun visor?
He-he. You know I'm not one of these British tieves on the one hand but I will never sign blank "security" cheque on the other hand. So I have been renting a car for 5 years :) on monthly basis.
Unfortunately only 2 weeks holidays. :evil:
Anyway have a nice trip! Speedhump You too, watch out for the girls with their hands in your pockets ;P By the way, I am pretty sure Moscow thieves outnumber London thieves.... :rr: Red Chief but not on the Dubai airport parking. 8) By the way last month I spoke to one lady from Bristol and she didn't consider mentioned situation as a crime. As I undersood it's rather common shift in British mentality. :shock: Speedhump No that's rubbish. I can't see Russians, Indians or anybody staying here to face jail for bankruptcy either, if they have a chance to escape. You are being short sighted as usual, when it comes to nationality. It's a huge failing of yours.....