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Belgian doctor: Israel using chemical weapons


Lionheart
Lionheart
Its not your foult if you haven't heard, because the main media outlets like BBC, CNN, NBC, ABC, etc, don't ever report anything negative about Isreal. mraph33
A week ago the Information Minister said Israel is using "banned weapons," which even AL-Jazeera said is unconfirmed. Since then the IRC, UN, Amnesty Int'l and many other neutral international organizations have been there, none have confirmed the story either.
Sorry - I don't buy it. Chocoholic I don't know why you're having a go at me. I've been against what has been happening all along, you just don't seem to let it go in your head. How about Iran 'allegedly' sending 27 suicide bombers to the front line? kanelli This is the first time I have heard anything about chemical weapons being used. MS
How about:
- Israel holding tens of thousands of arab prisoners, who have been mostly kidnapped
- Israel attacking a Palastenian prison that was under Nato responsibilty with tanks and artilery, and kidnap a Palastenian activist who was already in prison
- Israel shelling a Gaza beach, killing an entire Palastenian family that was having a picnic except an 8 years old girl who was left alone
- Israel killing 2 Egyptian policemen at the egyptian border a month ago in spite of 33 years of official peace
I am citing only some things that happened BEFORE this conflict. Lionheart
"How about Iran 'allegedly' sending 27 suicide bombers to the front line?"
This is allegation made by the Isrealis and Americans and there is proof to support this allegation except believing in country that lied about WMD in Iraq and many other things. Know the use of chemical weapons by Isreal is allegation being made by doctors both foriegn and local treating the victimez and observing the dead. mraph33
I would believe it if it was reported on Al Manar. Corcovado
look at the pix and then u will buy it ... why do i even bother if someone told u that hizzbullah is using these banned weapons u will buy it immediatly :evil: :evil: :evil: Lionheart The Israeli military is using chemical weapons during its bombing of Lebanon, a Belgian-Lebanese professor claimed during a press conference in Brussels on Thursday.


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Corcovado come on.... its ok lion heart they just want to live in peace with us .... they dont mean to use it and BURN babies and children ...peace my friend , peace ...RIGHT CHOC ? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: mraph33 Israel is using chemical weapons and the zionist-controlled Al Jazeera is afraid to report it. Lionheart
Actual Aljazeera already reported on the use chemical weapons by Isreal... Lionheart
Even when Isreal uses banned weapons against civilians they are still seen as moral...hell I don't even think any of the British and American media has talked about the use chemical weapons by Isreal...I guess western media is busy scaring their citizens and spreading Isrealis propoganda machine. mraph33
Actually they didn't....can you send a link? Chocoholic
MS, you obviously missed the significance of the 'highlighted' 'allegedly' meaning not proven - I was being sacrcastic, but I guess you haven't learnt to understand this yet.
C, I tell you what is really sad about what you said about 'them' not wanting peace with 'you' is exactly that! YOU still have a THEM and US attitude. You cannot brand an entire nation for the actions of a few and read all your opinions from media reports and pictures.
I guess it's all too easy to forget the wonderful pictures of last year with Israeli children happily playing football with Palestinian children, do you think they care about nationality or what is going on? Not until innocent minds are warped with hatred spouted from old people not willin to let old wars go.
Until people get rid of the THEM and US attitude and start thinking WE, as a HUMAN RACE, then these atrocities will constantly continue. kanelli Exactly Chocs. MS
Thanks for making the big effort in making sure if I know what 'allegedly' means or not. I do. You may also have been sarcastic.
However, I'm damn serious. What do you think of the actions that I referred to. Isn't any of these at least at the level of capturing soldiers at a disputed border! Why is only Israel having the right to declare war and totally destroy a neighboring nation because a gun was pointed to it? Don't you see that it is constantly pointing a much bigger gun to everybody else. And now you talk about US and THEM .........
When US have the same right and are worth the same as THEM, then maybe we can talk about WE as a human race. If THEM stops saying you're either with US or you're with the devil, then maybe we can start talking about WE as a human race. MaaaD
Chocoholic And Hezbollah now has it's hands on new long range missiles from Iran: freza Hezbollah has every right to have sophisticated weapons. After all they're a legitimate militant and political group with a vicious predatory neighbor. Chocoholic Hezbollah are nothing more than a terrorist organisation, that wish to control Lebanon and enforce their regime and undermine the Lebanese government. But the point is Iran are providing Hezbollah with these weapons, so how much more evidence do you need that Iran have a vested interest in the whole situation and yet no-one is pointing the finger at them. Hezbollah are also vicious and ruthless - it works both ways you know! It's not a one -sided situation as you'd keep trying to get people to believe. Chocoholic I wonder also Freza how much you'd stand up for Hezbollah if they ever had full control of Lebanon and implemented a regime as strict as in Iran? No fun, no bars, no music apart from traditional local music, no clubs, cerfews, modest clothing etc etc etc. ajb
In what way are they legitimate? freza
I'm sure your scenario would never happen, Lebanon is composed of a variety of sects and religions, and given its history such a outcome is not possible. It's silly to think about it actually. You can't change the facts: Hezbollah is a legitimate militant and political group. You can't change this fact by coming up with some hypothetical possiblity. Chocoholic They're not legitimate at all. They're a thorn in the side of the Lebanese government. Hezbollah have they're own agenda, they have no interest in providing what's right for the Lebanese people. As i said before, it's now obvious that Iran is pulling their strings in a bid to destabilise the region. Of course the force Israel is using is in no way justified, as it's certainly not helping their cause and shame on many Western nations for not condeming it and forcing a cease fire. The whole situation is beyond ridiculous. Chocoholic Actually I'd like to rephrase my last comment. Hezbollah, although holding legitimate civilian seats in the Lebanese parliament, is viewed by many as a resistance army. It is not recognise by many nations as a legitimate force, just as Israel is not recognise as a legitimate state by some nations. freza
What gives YOU the right to say Hezbollah is not legitimate? Show us some evidence to prove what you have stated please. Hezbollah the political party have been elected to cabinet seats by Lebanese people, they are in fact part of Lebanese politics. I think that you stated an opinion rather than a fact, right? Hezbollah are Lebanese, they are not foreigners occupying Lebanese land. Hezbollah was the only group able to send former OCCUPYING Israeli troops back home. One can say that Israel created them more than Iran and Syria did. Militant groups whose purpose is to rid their country of invaders are legitimate.
Hezbollah are influenced by Syria and Iran but they are not entirely controlled by them. It would be foolish to underestimate Hezbollah this way. If Syria and Iran were truly great and unconditional allies of Hezbollah, they would have gone to the defense of Lebanon from day one. But the reality is obvious. Iran shouldn't get involved, but their weapons should, in my opinion. Syria should definitely get involved as they have been attacked by Israel and have done nothing to retaliate, it's about time that they did. But sadly Hezbollah seems to be at it alone. Chocoholic You obviously didn't go back and read the rephrasing of my original post. I said that Hezbollah are not recognised by many nations as a legitimate force. And they are not originally Lebanese but an Iranian faction set-up as a resistance army - google history of Hezbollah if you don't believe me! Also if you needed any more proof that Iran are behind them, the moron that is the President of Iran put the Hezbollah flags on his desk during parliament and UN meetings, proving that he has no interest in seeing a ceasefire. Open your eyes for goodness sake. Chocoholic Hezbollah was setup with the assistance of the Iranian revolutionary guard. Chocoholic Interesting that you conveniently ignored by question about what you'd think if a tighter regime was implemented in Lebanon. Surely the thought that Iran has a helping hand in all of this for their own agendas is not a good thing. freza You obviously didn't go back and read the rephrasing of my original post. I said that Hezbollah are not recognised by many nations as a legitimate force. [color=blue]Yes, they are not recognized by the US, Israel and its closest allies. The same allies that told us that Saddam Hussein had WMD and that he had Al Qaeda connections. The same governments that are fighting for "Freedom" and nothing else :roll: in the Middle East. So of course, let's believe them when they state that Hezbollah is a terrorists organization! Hahaha. Really, how naive can we be?[/color] And they are not originally Lebanese but an Iranian faction set-up as a resistance army - google history of Hezbollah if you don't believe me! [color=blue]Do you actually believe that Hezbollah and its supporters are Iranians living in Lebanon?? Do you believe that are not originally Lebanese? Really do you believe this?[/color]? :shock:
Also if you needed any more proof that Iran are behind them, the moron that is the President of Iran put the Hezbollah flags on his desk during parliament and UN meetings, proving that he has no interest in seeing a ceasefire. [color=blue] I KNOW that Iran supports them and are influenced by them, who doesn't know this??? (((Hello))) I actually think it's great that Hezbollah in Lebanon are getting weapons from Iran. I never questioned who is backing Hezbollah! What I'm saying is that Hezbollah is greatly influenced by Iran, but they are an independent Lebanese militant group after all. Now, talking of morons, let's mention the biggest morons... Bush & Blair, shall we?[/color]

Open your eyes for goodness sake. [color=blue]Yeah, if only you could take your own advise....it would be sweet.[/color] :wink: kanelli If the US is supplying Israel with weapons that it uses to attack innocent civilians in Lebanon, it can't really complain about Iran or anyone else supplying Hezbollah. That would be hypocritical. ajb I do not believe Hezbollah are the Lebanese army and therefore cannot be called a legitimate force. The politcial party side of things maybe be legitimate but the fighters certainly are not. They are terrorists or guerillas. kanelli It is very problematic when there is no national army involvement because then rules of engagement for war are not the same. It is much easier for civilians to be targeted in cases where small, separate, unofficial groups start attacking another country. This is the case with Hezbollah and other groups that have been called terrorist groups or guerilla groups. freza "They are using suction bombs that implode our buildings," he added, "With implosive bombs...instead of the glass blasted out, it is inside the building. These kill everyone inside the building. There are rarely survivors when they use these bombs"
An Israeli military spokesman told Reuters news agency, "Everything the Israeli defence forces are using is legitimate ."
Israelis Accused of Using Illegal Weapons
Dahr Jamail
MaaaD Choco you really need to read up about Hezbollah's history better. They are just a religious shia faction that spurred out of the less religious shia group Amal (that is now headed by Nabih Berry the speaker of lebanese parliament). Hezbollah has done alot in terms of social services in the south and have been able to legitmately drive out the occupying forces out of south of lebanon. To label them as "terrorists" (which has become an equivlant of not on the US side) is absurd. And to say that they are originally iranian is even more absurd. Come on, i would think you know better. I also recommend you read the article in the "reap what you sow" thread (if you havent already) to see how Israel is the one behind the rise of the resistance movements Hamas and Hizbullah. MaaaD BTW they were confirmed as a legitimate resistance movement by the lebanese goverment itself (which is not only shia), and the right to return back land and prisoners by means of armed resistance is in the lebanese constitution. Thus what Hezbollah did in kidnapping the soldiers to exchange them for prisoners was not illegal and perfectly in line with the lebanese constitution. ajb Not terrorists? I watched a doco the other day in which they were hijacking planes, taking hostages and blowing up buildings?? MaaaD
Hezbollah has always been very careful about avoiding the targetting of civilians, i am not sure what your documentary was about .. but for sure not hezbollah they have niver hijacked a plane, kidnapped civilans, or blow up a building. Actually the EU has not classified them as a terrorist organization although the US keeps pressuring them to do so. ajb It was about them hijacking a plane from Beirut and trying to land in another part of the ME (sorry can't remember exactly where) to force officials to talk about prisoner release deals but then the runways were blocked so they ended up having to fly to Italy to refuel. Eventually after several attempts to try and land where they wanted to they returned to Beirut where they loaded the cockpit with explosive and the cabin with grenades. Unfortunately I didnt get to see the whole thing but I do remember them letting the women and children off the plane but they did throw one man out of the side of the plane on to the tarmac. The doco was more on hijackings than Hezbollah but they were definitely mentioned ..... I think it was on the national geographic channel MaaaD
you are talking about this incident:
The group who hijacked were Shia Muslims from Lebanon, they were never part of hezbollah but rather a group who called themselves the "Organization for the Oppressed of the Earth". freza
This was indeed an act of terrorism but it was NOT directly executed by Hezbollah, the group that carried this act was most likely an offspring of Hezbollah. It seems that you're trying to define an entire political and military group by scratching for motives to accuse Hezbollah of illegitamacy - these isolated incidents are not going to cut it.
Some people would argue that the US and UK marines that have committed rape and/or murder in Iraq are rogue elements that don't represent the entire US/UK marines or military. Would you agree with this? But then again, you classify all of Hezbollah's military arm as terrorists? Hhhhmmm.
It's interesting how you jump to call questionable Hezbollah actions "terrorism" but I don't see you doing the same with Israel. Taking entire villages and cities hostage (Gaza and West Bank); keeping them under fire and under threat, confining people to their homes sometimes for weeks on end, denying them health care, depriving them of their basic human rights...is NOT terrorism? Really?? mraph33
I don't know about any hijackings, but they have been firing rockets into northern Israel for quite some time. It didn't start with this recent war. Certainly the rockets that they fire were not aimed at specific military targets. MaaaD
That is different, they are at war with Israel. Israel has done much worse to civilians (i.e Qana in 96) but i rarely hear anyone calling Israel a terrorist state, yet are surprised when i refuse to brand hezbollah as terrorists. We can go on forever like this. The whole point of this is that Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, they are a legitimate resistance that is trying to free up the land occupied by israel and the prisoners taken by them. But i guess one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter :) freza
Unfortunately Hezbollah lacks the precision weapons that Israel has. You know, like those super precise missiles that Israel "accidentally" struck at the clearly marked UN (UNTSO) post in Lebanon, several times...precision, yup. mraph33
The question is if Hezbollah supported this action. The US Marine Corps don't support or tolerate marines who rape or pillage. freza
No, no of course they don't support them. They just cover up for them until the story gets out and they have no choice but to admit the truth and punish the crimes. MaaaD
give me a break, its in the culture. I think we only hear about a few of what really goes one. Iraq, Phillipines, Japan, even in the bases in Virginia.. list goes on. ajb
I guess it comes down to a definition of terrorism. I would consider any militant group that is not the official army of the country to be either terrorists or a guerilla group. For the record I have not shown any kind of support for Israel and I find their current actions disgusting and Im sure they are guilty of war crimes.
But the problem arises that if Hezbollah are not terrorists and are in fact a legitimate part of the Lebanese defence force then their recent actions were basically Lebanon declaring war on Israel which I dont think many people would agree with. mraph33
One has nothing to do with the other. I'm not defending Israel's actions. But its incorrect to state the Hezbollah doesn't target civilians. shafique How about the gassing of Kurds by Saddam - was that terrorism? Or just genocide? How about the guys who armed Saddam? Are they guilty of supporting terrorism? How about regimes that supported the overthrow of democratically elected governments? Hmm - let's see, Chile, Nicaragua spring to mind. Or how about invading a country and overthrowing the government - is that terrorism - or just state aggression? Remember Grenada? (The answers to all of the above are the good old USofA) :) freza
What a statement! Israel has up to now, killed more children than militants (look at the statistics for goodness sake!) yet here you find a few people trying to question the legitimacy of Hezbollah and stating that Hezbollah TARGET civilians. When was the last time Hezbollah's F-16s went into Israeli airspace to drop precision missiles into civilian TARGETS ?? Oh, right, never. Their ground-to-ground missles, are NOT precision weapons, unlike Israel's multitide of sophisticated weapons. (Katyusha for your info, are anything but precise in their targets, and the only target missle that Hezbollah has used up to now, has been the radar guided missle that hit an Israeli war ship). Israel has in fact been targeting civilians and peacekeepers, look at the evidence. This is common sense for most people, but you apparently will believe what you want, facts be damned. ajb I dont think anyone has disputed that Israel have targeted and killed civilians and UN workers (other than the Israeli's) but there was a comment on here that Hezbollah are careful not to target civilians which by your own admission they simply cannot do with their current arsenal. mraph33 So Hezbollah is immune from criticism because of what israel is doing? The fact that they don't have the same firepower as Israel doens't make them righteous. If they had an F-16 to drop an atomic bomb on Tel-Aviv they would. shafique mraph33 - interesting point about the F16 and nuclear capability. North Korea, one could argue, shows that if Hezbollah had nuclear capability, then Israel would not be killing civilians right now. You reap what you sow - Hezbollah grew out of a need for a resistance to Israeli occupation of Lebanon and agression against the PLO. It is just human nature to want to inflict pain on those who are killing your loved ones - it shows that Hezbollah are human, and not (as Washington and Tel Aviv will have us think) that they are sub-human (aka Terrorists). freza I do think that Hezbollah has so far tried to avoid civilian casualties on the Israeli side, it would only make sense to hit as many military targets as possible; civilians deaths on the Israeli side have been both unintended and consequence of un-precise weapons, imo. Again look at the evidence, Hezbollah's fiercest battles have been on the ground; with their attacks directly aimed at Israeli troops on Lebanese territory. But I would also think that some elements of Hezbollah would want to retaliate in the same way that Israel has attacked - by killing civilians indiscriminately. Yet, we're still not seeing this. Instead of accusing Hezbollah of targeting civilians, which is not true (yet), I would point out that so far they've shown a lot of restraint in view of the savagery that Israel has enacted upon Lebanese civilians. freza mraph33 Your avatar makes me laugh. It is quite funny. :lol: freza "IF"
Ha! if, if..... ah, how about WHAT IS is going on? NOT "if". C'mon now. "If" Hezbollah had a nuclear bomb (which is quite improbable!). Israel has the nuclear weapons and the reality is not "if" Israel is destroying its neighbor, the reality is that it IS destroying it. This what counts, the REALITY of the situation.
"Ifs" are the laughable probability of WMD infamy. Why even go there again????? mraph33
I believe in peace.
But I'm glad it entertains you freza
It amuses me, not so much entertains me.
I believe in peace too.
Israel also claims to believe in peace! Haha! Interesting, how some people interpret peace... kanelli Is this a discussion about Lebanon and Israel, or for taking pot shots at someone's avatar and making judgements on whether posters believe in peace or not. :roll: freza
Well, if you want to be particular about things, this was actually a thread about banned weapons used by the Israeli forces against Lebanese civilians..
I'm sure peace guys and gals are not the ultra-sensitive type who can't take a jab or two. :wink: mraph33
Actaully I'm more offended that you didn't like the orignial artwork. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are amused by the message freza
No, I don't really like it, sorry because I don't aim to offend but I think it's very unrealistic and wishy washy. Kinda like a Hallmark Moments card, sweet and sentimental, BUT its just that - a dreamy wish. mraph33 Well as Gandi said "Be the change you want to see in the world." And there's nothing wishy-washy about believing in peace. kanelli She'll probably find Gandhi's words cheezy and unrealistic too. :lol: freza I said, in case you didn't catch it, that I also believe in peace. But it is obvious, to anyone with half a brain, that Israel DOES NOT believe in peace. So what are the Lebanese to do? Let themselves get slaughtered? Welcome the occupiers into their land? I guess that's some people's version of peace, is to surrender to destruction, humiliation and occupation ... kanelli Who has said in this thread that Lebanon should surrender to Israel and be occupied? Some of us have said that Israel does not deserve to be wiped off the planet, but we have also acknowledged that they are acting in a completely unacceptable way and need to be stopped. I think you continue to miss that point. freza
I was asking what the solution to peace was, because some of you seem to think that Hezbollah is equally responsible for this bloodbath. So what do you want Hezbollah to do or not do? You know that if they lay down their weapons, they are most likely going to get slaughtered...
Also, you've been saying that some of us want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map, that's ridiculous. That is the last thing I would want for Israel. I do want to see the Israeli *regime* punished, but I don't want to see any country wiped off the face of the earth.
So Kanelli, what is your solution? I'm talking about palpable, realistic solutions, not a "let's just get along" type of empty phrase. MaaaD Israel suffers a paucity of intelligence on the whereabouts of Hizbullah members, which is why it has been targeting the homes of their families. But this does not justify the systematic bombardment of Lebanese society, and the attempts to destroy its economy. This is the epitome of terrorism: the incitement of terror in a civilian populace by unleashing massive violence and destruction against it in an attempt to compel the people's political leaders to act against the Lebanese resistance or to change their positions. from : The article is great, i recommend reading it. I have lots of respect for Dr. Azmi. ajb
How about releasing the two soldiers and refraining from firing rockets. This would be a show of good will that they are ready to negotiate a ceasefire ..... they can still remain armed and oppose any Israeli's who are advancing into Lebanon but it might be enough to get the negotiations off the battlefield and save some bloodshed. MaaaD
AJB, a ceasefire is initiated by the agressor not by the party that is just using it as a way to defend itself !!! .. Israel should cease the fire .. since most of the fire is coming from her .. I dont think two people disagree that the ceasefire is something israel should do and not hezbollah. After the ceasefire negotiations can commence. That is pretty much an international consensus except for big ol USA and its lil puppy Israel. mraph33
There was also an international consensus that Hezbollah started this whole bloody and destructive escapade when it kipnapped the 2 soldiers. ajb
I dont disagree in theory but Freza was asking for a solution to help stop the violence .... those are my thoughts as one way to get there. Israel are using the capture of its soldiers and the firing of rockets as the excuse to attack Lebanon ... if you remove the excuse then things could be better for all involved. freza I can't believe the naivety of some folks!! :?
My goodness, some still believe that this attack was the sole result of the abduction of two soldiers????!!
I think those many people are simply lacking a basic understanding in regards to the politics and history of this region. But lack of knowledge should not equate to lack of logic! Where has people's logic gone?
Please read that Al-Ahram article that Maaad recommended. It's well written and ENLIGHTENING . ajb
No Freza I dont think this is because of the abduction of two soldiers but that IS the excuse Israel is using ... like I said remove the excuse freza So, you admit that it's an excuse? So Hezbollah has to cater to the whims of Israel now? Ha! Read the article please, it's very good. mraph33 Saudi Arabia and the Arab League blames Hezbollah for starting the conflict. And Mahmoud Komati of Hezbollah said in an widely quoted interview, that they were suprised by the Israeli response to the kidnapping. Is Israel's reaction disproportional and criminal? No question. Did this start because of an Israeli reaction to a Hezbollah instigation? No question. ajb
Ive never tried to debate whether its an excuse or not IT IS AN EXCUSE. I have zero support for Israel in what they are doing to the innocent civilians of Lebanon. What you asked for was solutions .... do you not agree that on an international/political level that removing all the excuses for Israel to continue attacking could aid in a ceasefire or at least increased international support for a ceasefire ..... it would be increasingly difficult for Israel to defend what they are doing.
And yes maybe in this case Lebanon does have to cater to Israels whims to get the argument off the battlefield (where Lebanons chances are minimal) and into negotiations where at least they stand a chance and the innocent are not continuing to be killed. freza
:lol:
My pebble (above comment) didn't hit you? OK, that happens some times..
Saudi Arabia, wow! Are you seriou? KSA - a government, eh, un-elected monarchy with exemplary credibility and definitely not anyone's tool, much less an American tool. No never! :roll:
Again, what is it that some of you don't understand about "puppet regimes" ? KSA (the monarchy) is only interested in retaining power. It sees the Shia growing in power as a threat. And it pretty much follows the orders of the US. Is this news to you? Just like Jordan, Egypt and even Syria (with a twist), these regimes are only interested in retaining their pathetic artificial status. freza
This makes no sense. This is akin to surrendering to blackmail, most importantly this is surrendering people's rights. You see what you're saying now? You want Hezbollah to surrender their right to exist. Ouch. That coming from Israel? Ironic, isn't it?
Israel wants Hezbollah to disappear from Lebanon (I would say to disappear from the face of the earth, but let's not go there). Israel wants a proxy puppet regime to be installed in Lebanon. And who knows, it might even want to do a land grab, after all, Israel HAS been grabbing Arab lands since 1946.
So, let Hezbollah and the Lebanese government just give in to blackmail? For the sake of stopping the bloodshed? Is that your solution? ajb
Well if you hadn't realised the current resistance isnt exactly working so well ... Israel is systematically bombing the $hit out of Lebanon under the excuse that Hezbollah initiated the agression. Is not the most important thing at present to try and stop the bombing and then work towards a long term peace plan .... maybe I am naieve in this sense ... maybe there is far too much agression from both parties to ever come to a peaceful co-existance?? Maybe you would prefer to fight this out once and for all until one party no longer exists. ajb
Its got nothing to do with Hezbollah surrendering its about removing the excuses from Israel so that they no longer can blame Hezbollah for the current situation. If they do not cease then keep fighting send more rockets over the border ... all that will have been lost in trying is 2 captive soldiers ..... and the international support gained from being seen to do the right thing towards peace will be hugely beneficial to the cause mraph33
So much for Arab unity freza Its got nothing to do with Hezbollah surrendering its about removing the excuses from Israel so that they no longer can blame Hezbollah for the current situation. [color=blue]Hmm, again this does not make sense. Eliminating Hezbollah is the main aim![/color] If they do not cease then keep fighting send more rockets over the border ... all that will have been lost in trying is 2 captive soldiers ..... and the international support gained from being seen to do the right thing towards peace will be hugely beneficial to the cause [color=blue]Again the attacker, as in full out military attack, was Israel. Common sense would tell you that kidnapping does not equal war. And like I've repeated numerous times, Israel was going to invade regardless of the kidnapping, they would of made someting up for lack of a reason. So in other words, they were going to find *any excuse* to invade, they were just waiting for the moment, but the real aim is Hezbollah. Now I'm really confused at to what exactly you're saying, because it still seems that you don't understand that Israel is hell bent on removing Hezbollah, whether they surrender or not, whether they stop sending missiles over the border or not, whether you remove *an excuse* or not. Are you saying that this is perfectly OK? I also think that you're not addressing my direct points (from my previous post). Ah one last thing, Hezbollah has agreed to cease-fire, per a Lebanese government peace plan. Israel is not accepting this plan. Try to keep up with the news.[/color] freza
Arab unity, Arab schmunity!
Gutless, ball-less Arab regimes are also to blame for this bloodshed - ah the pathetic weak that choose to be weak. ajb
Is it the protection of Lebanon that you are after or the protection of Hezbollah?
You seem to be very good at picking to pieces my suggestions for a solution ... but you have yet to suggest anything yourself as to how to end the bloodshed?
And to address your previous post the removal of hezbollah maybe Israels goal but they are going to achieve it alot more easily through war than diplomacy .... do you not agree? freza Is it the protection of Lebanon that you are after or the protection of Hezbollah?
[color=blue]Well since the Lebanese military is so magnificent. Look at how they've responded to this attack and protected their country... Oh snap! well at least they're helping with protecting the UN and US embassy... In all fairness, they're also assisting is providing civilian aid. [/color]
You seem to be very good at picking to pieces my suggestions for a solution ... but you have yet to suggest anything yourself as to how to end the bloodshed?
[color=blue]I think Syria needs to get involved. Syria owes it to Lebanon to get involved and it's a shame, straight out shame that it is cowering in a corner while Lebanon is being brutalized this way. The Syrian regime has the weapons and the reason, but so far it has lacked the courage and heart to attack Israel. It can't put off the confrontation forever. I think Syria needs to assist Hezbollah and heavily punish Israel's military. I think that neutral countries should grow a spine and take diplomatic steps to condemn Israel's actions - steps like resolutions, embargos, and economic ramifications against Israel. This is all possible. Teach the bully a lesson, but make it as bloodless as possible.[/color]
And to address your previous post the removal of hezbollah maybe Israels goal but they are going to achieve it alot more easily through war than diplomacy .... do you not agree?
[color=blue]Why on earth does Israel have a right to remove Hezbollah? Hezbollah arose because of Israel's invasion and occupation. Hezbollah has every right to defend itself and to exist. [/color] I-No-Jack ajb i thing you are wasting your time with freza - lost cause :roll: ajb
I still think we are learning something from each other ... whether we agree or not :) I-No-Jack
Are you really? its a broken record :roll: ajb
hmmm what kind of reaction do you think Syria's invovlement would bring? I think the US might mobilise in that situation??
Israel might not have a right to remove Hezbollah but face the facts under the current conditions thats exactly what is going to happen ... if a ceasefire cannot be achieved Israel will continue to remove Hezbollah. I guess what Im trying to say is that the current course of action is steadily leading to one of the things you want least to happen. freza hmmm what kind of reaction do you think Syria's invovlement would bring? I think the US might mobilise in that situation??
[color=blue]
Sweety, the US is already behind this situation, it's obvious that Israel is *also* attacking on behalf of the US. Also, the US has 100,000+ In Iraq and the situations there is chaos. Do you trust a victory if the US were to fight on two fronts? One conventional and one not? Oh and let's not forget Afghanistan. US troops are stretched out to the max, a plus for an opponent.[/color]
Israel might not have a right to remove Hezbollah but face the facts under the current conditions thats exactly what is going to happen [color=blue]So we should just let an injustice happen? I think what you're saying is very dangerous. Even thinking about denying Israel's right to exist is taboo, but Israel can deny anyone's right to exist and we should just "face the facts"? That's sad and dangerous because it's practically allowing Israel to believe that their lives are worth more than the lives of Arabs.[/color] ... if a ceasefire cannot be achieved Israel will continue to remove Hezbollah. I guess what Im trying to say is that the current course of action is steadily leading to one of the things you want least to happen. [color=blue]I would not bet on it. How long did the 1967 Arab-Israeli war last? 6 freakin days! Four countries against tiny Israel and they lost horribly in six days. Damn. How long has this war lasted? Aha! And still Hezbollah is going strong...[/color] ajb
stretched or not I dont think it would be good for the US to become directly involved i.e. marching US soldiers in to the frame.
Im not saying just let an injustice happen Im saying that diplomacy may be a better solution to fighting it out.
If something doesnt change at the moment what is going to be the result? Chocoholic Freza, no-ones life is worth more than an other, no matter who you are or what religion or culture you subscribe to. You have shot down virtually everyone's suggestions, so why don't YOU put forward a solution to the problem, that DOESN'T involve more killing of ANYONE! Can we have less of the HA's! please, it's very silly. And you're avatar says to me that you're just a young person clutching at straws and jumping on anyone you can. freza Freza, no-ones life is worth more than an other, no matter who you are or what religion or culture you subscribe to.
[color=darkblue]
I know that, but can you try to convince Israel?[/color]
You have shot down virtually everyone's suggestions, so why don't YOU put forward a solution to the problem, that DOESN'T involve more killing of ANYONE!
[color=darkblue]How many people offered viable suggestions to a solution on this thread? Two max, so I wouldn't call that "everyone's" (my you do exagerrate). ajb's suggestion is a reinforcement of what Israel wants, no one should surrender to a terrorist state like Israel, imho. I did offer a suggestion, btw.[/color]

Can we have less of the HA's! please, it's very silly .
[color=darkblue]
But that's the way I speak, you want to deny my rights too? Ha![/color]
And you're avatar says to me that you're just a young person clutching at straws and jumping on anyone you can.
[color=darkblue]No, I just constructively criticize unwise opinions but if my opinion is uninformed or/and straight out whacked, I have no problems with people setting me straight, actually I would relish this. But they have to know their facts (hint, hint, HINT!). I also think it's great that we could share our views on this forum. [/color]
[color=darkblue]I happen to be a grown-up 23 year old who still buys Hello Kitty stuff and Emily the Strange comic books, so you might be right about something. [feel deeply shamed! :oops:] You're right about my avatar too.. I should get a more mature avatar, something like a smiling puzzy wearing a crown?
Ha![/color] Chocoholic My kitty is laughing as he just let one go in the face of your little wimpy dude. Anyway I'd still like to here YOUR suggestions, as you have a knack of avoiding direct questions. Also your comment regarding Israeli's not treating everyone as a human being can also be attributed to many other religious factions, say oh Al Queda, who treat view anyone other tham Muslims as scum. So think before you say such things as others on different sides think the same, but does it mean we should lower ourselves to these opinions? No! It does not. freza
Go back one page, you'll find it there (pg 6 I think).
Al Qaeda is not a religious "faction". It's a terrorist group who mixes twisted religious beliefs into their ideology. Israel is a state that bases its existence on Zionism - the belief that God (yeah, the one and only God) gave them, "the chosen ones" the land of Israel. Hhhmm...
Seems like you're having a bad day. How about thinking a bit more rationally before posting? Just a suggestion... Chocoholic See we've had that discussion before on the forum. Objective point of view, but if it's in the Holy book, then why deny it? Just asking before you jump all over me. freza
You take everything in the Bible literally ? Chocoholic See avoidance once again - answer the question! Why not? Also the fact that Al Queda is a terrorist organisation does not excuse their views, I know many 'normal' people who also have that view point, that they are better than others. No-one is entitled to consider themselves 'better' or more 'worthy' than anyone else. Chocoholic Also I bet you wouldn't dare say such things about the koran. Double standards? freza
I don't avoid questions, but why your constant accusations? I was a bit shocked at you referencing the bible to justify Zionism. There are several versions of the Bible, I think you're refering to the Protestant one, right? God said he created man in his image, he created all humans to be equal. The claim that some are more special than others is baloney.
The Bible is a book of virtue, history, teachings, prayer, poetry and MTYH. And as you should know a myth is not a lie, but a made-up story that leads to the truth. I do not take everything in the Bible literally.. thank God :wink: freza
What are YOU talking about?
You are one jumpy chick! I criticize Muslims at times, you bet I do. I don't know enough of the Koran to talk about it or criticize it, so I won't. But I will say that I respect it.
And what about al Qaeda?? I'm not justifying them! My gosh :D
You're accusing me of being immature but Choco you're acting.... scatterbrained and truly immature today, what gives? If you had a bad day, chill out, eat some chocolate, but don't take it out on people that disagree with you on the political threads of DF.
:wink: I-No-Jack
physical growth has nothing to do with it :!:
good thing I realized early on that you are just a kid :!: MaaaD Choco and I-No-Jack at no point did freza turn this argument into a personal one, while both of you are steering it that way. If you have nothing to say back dont say it, and keep personal attacks out of this. 23, 13, or 43 .. she is very articulate and logical, and does not resrot to emotional outbursts or personal attacks regardless of whether you agree with her arguments or not. I-No-Jack
maadd up to now i have been impressed with your posts (here and in israel vs. lebanon). but with respect to freza you are mistaken on the "logical" - even the "articulate" part is suspect but that is a subjective term. i would say, sharewadi, kanelli and chocks are spot on, you are in the middle, lionheart and freza "out there', corcovado - a different story.
keep up the good work ajb
Freza,
It's not a reinforcement of what Israel wants .... you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum. Lebanon should keep fighting for their rights but do it in a political forum which does not have so much bloodshed.
By the way I dont know much about the 6 day war that you previously mentioned - were the Israelis backed and supplied weaponry by the US during that war also?
Its funny being from the western world I was brought up hearing what an aggressive area of the world the middle east and its people were ... I never really believed it and always thought I would make up my own mind when I went there .... but I now get the feeling that there are many people on both sides of this conflict that do not want it to end ... very sad. mraph33 And this information was given to you by the army chief-of-staff?
disarmed=destroyed? In what language
How about telling Hezbollah to stop firing rockets from civilian areas. There must be some reason why Israel is firing missles where it does. If if just wanted to randomly kill civilians, it has the firepower to flatten all of Beirut. The high civilian death count is inexcusible, but Israel is not the sole culprit. freza ajb
" ...you do not seem to comprehend that my suggestions are aimed at getting the fight off the battlefield and into a political forum "
If you have been keeping up with the news you would KNOW by now that ISRAEL not Lebanon, but Israel, has flat out REFUSED that political forum that you talk about. They have been offered numerous opportunities for a cease-fire and a dialogue - Olmert has refused all of it. Hezbollah on the other hand has agreed to a cease-fire per the Lebanese government. It is as clear as water: Israel's only form of dialogue is war.
Also I would suggest that to truly understand this situation, you do need to know the history of the Israel, its neighbors and its wars. ajb
I am learning the history slowly and by no means do I think that my thoughts are completly right they are just my thoughts as an outsider .... I have been catching up on the news today and agree that Israel are refusing at the moment for a ceasefire ... but I also think by removing their excuses to be attacking that the chances of them being compelled to agree to a ceasefire increase. freza
Yeah, so let's change it around shall we, let's remove the excuse on the Israeli side - to be fair and even. How about Hezbollah crushes most of Israel, and therefor removes any chance of being attacked? :wink: freza Before you say: "How dare you?!" I don't want to see that happen to Israel: total destruction; NO. Military destruction; YES. It is not right and it does not make sense for the region, that the attacker sets the rules of the game. Those being attacked relentlessly OBVIOUSLY need to defend themselves in view of the plans that Israel has. So what you're saying really does not make sense for anyone but Israel and the US. MaaaD There are only three countries in the world that are not with a complete uncoditional cease fire. Israel, US and the UK. ajb
Well don't you think it would be worth trying (i.e. let the soldiers go and stop firing rockets) so that there is a chance of saving some lives. In reality we could have this same conversation till the end of the week and the only thing that will have changed is the body count. freza
NO. ajb, it is NOT about the soldiers, those soldiers were just the excuse! Please understand this very simple notion. Israel needed an excuse to invade Lebanon but the plans for re-invasion were there, for years. Just today the Olmert reiterated that Israeli military would not rest until Hezbollah was "disarmed". In other words, until they are Destroyed. So if your scenario were to be, if Hezbollah returns the soldiers and stops firing weapons, Israel will still kill Hezbollah off only to invade full scale - invade all of Lebanon. Bloodshed will not stop, on the contrary. And this time it's very likely that a great part of the Shiaa population would be killed off, and/or displaced. Look at history! Israel is not only an expert in killing, it's also an expert at displacing people from their land! Israel will do everything in its power to avoid the emergence of a new angrier generation - Hezbollah II - from this latest Israeli occupation. The signs are already there; it has been killing civilians without taking an ounce of accountability. ajb We both agree that its not about the soldiers and that they were just Israel's excuse. But I can see the Israeli's clinging to that excuse as their reason for continued attacks i.e. Hezbollah started it (again its just an excuse). As long as they have that excuse they can claim the moral high ground which Im sure you know they are and will continue to do ..... whether releasing the soldiers amounts to anything in terms of peace it will remove the moral high ground that Israel are trying to claim which will lead to increased condemnation from the iternational community .... and that can only be good fo the people of Lebanon! MaaaD
ajb my friend Israel will always find an excuse. Even if they had to make one. Hariri's death was an "excuse" to see hezbollah destroyed internally without using force .. we saw that didnt work, so now they have another excuse ..
What you are asking for is for hezbollah to be defeatist and accept Israel's whip. Fat chance. I have posted this quote before and i will do that again:
"Those who profess to favour freedom and yet
depreciate agitation are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters ... Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
- Fredrik Douglass freza We both agree that its not about the soldiers and that they were just Israel's excuse.
But I can see the Israeli's clinging to that excuse as their reason for continued attacks i.e. Hezbollah started it (again its just an excuse) . [color=blue]So Lebanon should just accept Israel's capricious cling of an excuse?[/color] As long as they have that excuse they can claim the moral high ground which Im sure you know they are and will continue to do ..... whether releasing the soldiers amounts to anything in terms of peace it will remove the moral high ground that Israel are trying to claim which will lead to increased condemnation from the iternational community .... and that can only be good fo the people of Lebanon! [color=blue]What moral high ground? Their own delusional moral high ground you mean? I don't think Israel and morality mix in the same sentence unless you're talking about their lack of morality. You're counting on condemnation from the international community... hmmm... the one that has so far failed to condemn Israel's war crimes? The international community has proven to be as good as a sack of potatoes. I think that your thoughts reflect the views of many "neutral"people: That Israel should be treated with kid gloves. That it can jerk the world around with its capriciousness. That Israel is "special" and therefor deserves to get what it wants, no matter how absurd and unjust. [/color] freza And this information was given to you by the army chief-of-staff?
[color=blue]I've discussed this before on the Lebanon/Israel thread. I think you've missed it.[/color]
[color=blue]
Also, try the Jersualem Post (very much pro-Israel of course!). The Independent has some good past articles on Israel's plans. Also, search for PNAC documents on US-Israeli plan for the Middle East...it makes for a very interesting read.[/color]
disarmed=destroyed? In what language
[color=blue]In the language of discernable people that read between the lines and don't believe everything that politicians say. Buzz and irrelevant words like "fighting for freedom" "pangs of birth" (haha) "sustainable" "enemies of peace" etc. are empty propaganda phrases that are spoken for lack of truth. You know.. propaganda... But hey, Israel itself has said that it wants to destroy Hezbollah, it has said this several times since it was kicked out from Lebanon. I guess you have missed this too.[/color]
How about telling Hezbollah to stop firing rockets from civilian areas. [color=blue]Where is the evidence that they have done so?[/color] There must be some reason why Israel is firing missles where it does. If it just wanted to randomly kill civilians, it has the firepower to flatten all of Beirut. [color=blue]Yeah, it's called: "collective punishment". It has mostly killed Shiaa who are in the South by the way. You do know that many (though not all) Lebanese Christians supported Israel during the Israeli occupation, right? Israel is probably counting on the same type of support certain sectors in Beirut, but it doesn't seem to be going in that direction. It has the support from the House of Saud though! [/color] The high civilian death count is inexcusible, but Israel is not the sole culprit. [color=blue]No, no, poor things, their hands are really tied...onto their weapons.[/color] I-No-Jack after a short commercial break will return with more of the Freza & AJB show - don't change the channel :) mraph33
What you describe as "plans to invade Lebanon" are plans to combat Hezbollah. "Destroy Hezbollah" means to destroy their military capability, i.e. their ability to attack Israel. But words can be interpreted in different ways.
Regarding Hezbollah's launchings, this can be found all over the internet. Maybe what you see as "collective punishment" is Hezbollah's using "human shield," an action just as despicable. freza Some people are so guillible! Your avatar has become hilarious now, in view of your words. Bye. mraph33 And some people are so arrogant to think they are the ones who know the "only truth" without recognizing that there are 2 sides to every story. freza A terrorist State has a right to share its side of the story too, I agree. Israel's war crimes speak for themselves though; the overwhelming evidence is there; what isn't there is logic, morality and accountability.
I do not claim to know the "only truth", don't I wish! I am not someone who is easily deluded, that's all.
Let's leave this thread to other less arrogant and less gullible people, shall we?
:wink: mraph33 By using the words "terrorist" and "war crimes" whether its Israel the terrorist state, or the Hezbollah terrorist group, your ability to understand the other side is already clouded. Understanding is not agreement and its not dillusion. But it is the first step towards ending the conflict and reconciliation. I-No-Jack
she's 23 nough said freza
By using the word terrorist to describe the Israeli state I have not clouded my understanding - on the contrary - I have come to an understanding of who is the REAL terrorist in this war. One can't ignore or rename the facts...Israel and its allies can, but not coherent individuals... mraph33
Well I'm glad that you've arrive at YOUR understand. But your intolerance is overpowering freza
MY intolerance? Wow. My lil intolerant views which are anything but the dominant views of powers in this world of ours? :D
For some strange reason I thought the US and Israeli intolerance were the real "overpowering" um..powers.
When one can't even tell whose intolerant powers run the world... wow.. some serious denial going on... mraph33
You're not running the world, you're exchanging ideas on a forum. But I knew that somehow you would blame Israel and the US again. In case you burn your dinner tonight, there are some Mossad agents that have been found in Dubai. freza I think you didn't get me... who is running the world? And based on what intolerant views?
I don't only blame the US and Israel, I blame petty, corrupt, servile Arab "leaders" for allowing such trangressions to take place in front of them. And I also blame the EU and UN - for not taking a decisive stand against the true agressors. MS
Q: Do you agree that Israel is a terrorist state?
A yes/no answer would be kindly appreciated. mraph33
And if I get the answer wrong are you going to call my 3rd grade teacher? MS
No. Already got the answer that was expected. freza mraph33 why can't you just answer MS' question??? geez! MS
He won't answer it. That's the point. mraph33 You all post what you want. I'll post what I want. It is clear that I don't share your biases. I use precise words when I criticise, I don't use labels. Mr & Mrs Inquirer dont you know all is fair in love and war? banned :) valkyrie "Israel admits to using phosphorus bombs in recent Lebanon war"



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