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Australian cleric compares women to pieces of meat


satan-the-redeema [quote="kanelli"]Here is a quote from Sheikh Taj Aldin Al-Hilali's sermon during Ramadan.
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?"
"The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."
He also thinks that women should not "sway suggestively", wear make-up, or go out without wearing a hijab.
It is real nice to read the above and then read the popular press and to find out the popular press was correct all the time these are people who are still living in the dark ages. Living with white people is no good for them
:D
shafique Kanelli - why do nuns cover their hair but male priests do not? The answer to that question answers your query. :) Cheers, Shafique kanelli So men and women having the same human rights to be treated with respect while wearing the same kind of clothing is comparable to the differences between males and females in sport and why they do not always compete together? I don't find the situations comparable at all. Should we be functioning on the assumption that women are s.e.x objects for men first, and equal human beings second? It is a known fact that women think about s.e.x and find men s.e.x.u.ally attractive, just as men think about s.e.x and find women s.e.x.u.ally attractive. Just because women don't rape men doesn't mean a woman's s.e.xual desire can't be as potent as a man's. For some reason though, the women are the ones who are expected to cover up to men's satisfaction or have to accept whatever s.e.x.u.al abuse comes their way because the men are physically stronger and can overpower them and in some cultures, the men make the rules in society. I'm still waiting for some men to explain why showing arms, calves and hair is considered immodest for a woman, but is considered perfectly acceptable for a man. shafique Kanelli - your last sentence also begs an answer. Islam only differentiates between men and women where their is a biological or social requirement. Islam recognises the reality of the differences - in some regards men and women are not alike. You would never say: "Should I not believe in sport if men and women are not treated the same - male boxers don't fight female boxers, men and female athletic races are segregated etc"? Cheers, Shafique shafique Agree with you Kanelli - well said. The only minor quibble will be the last paragraph about covering one's calf and hair. According to Islam men too should cover to below the knee, but you are right muslim men aren't asked to cover their calves or hair out of modesty. The Prophet, pbuh, said that a woman's hair is part of her beauty. But this is not unique to Islam, as I pointed out nuns etc all cover their hair as a sign of modesty. There is a Hadith which says that a sign of the latter days will be the clothing of people : Women will go out clothed, but might as well be naked, the fashion will be to have flowing hair showing - resembling the tail of a horse - and men will also keep long hair and dress in a way that they will be mistaken for women! In the Quran, where women are asked to cover up, men are also asked to cover up (in fact men are mentioned first). Women have more/different 'assets' and the rules of dress reflect this. Cheers, Shafique kanelli Well, I think we can all agree that a woman who wears a stringy top and a mini-skirt is asking for men's eyes to follow her. Women who wear really tight clothes that have half of their breasts hanging out also are asking for men to pay attention to them. It is universal that women who dress this way are going to attract men, in fact most women who dress like that are trying to attract men. Not to be raped, but to get attention for a date perhaps. A woman who dresses in a skimpy way should never be touched or harrassed because she is still a human being who deserves respect. If you ask her for a date and she says no, then just back off and try to your luck with someone else. If some woman is reading this and thinks that she has the right to dress in a skimpy way by showing cleavage and lots of leg and stomach etc. and yet doesn't want any male attention - then she should seriously reconsider her way of thinking. By the way, this does NOT include the beach or pool. Those are places for swimming and tanning - so women should definitely not be expected to cover up there. Men should stay away if they can't treat women in bathing suits with respect. If I see a good looking man who has a great ass in his jeans and a tight t-shirt with a buff upper body, I have never walked up to him and touched him or said s.e.x.ually explicit things to him. I sneak some looks, but don't stare, and certainly don't think less of the man because he is attractive. Why some men think they can act in a disgusting way and then blame the woman for being attractive is beyond logic and human ethics. A woman who does not cover her hair, her arms or her legs below the knees is not immodestly dressed at all in my opinion. If a woman covers her torso all the way to her knees, is she not modest? Her breasts, bum and s.e.x.ual organs are covered. Please explain why uncovered arms, calves and hair are considered so sleazy by some men? Men should not be staring or treating women badly - PERIOD. Men in the rest of the world have learned how to look discreetly and behave themselves in the presence of women - so why can't some men from other cultures learn the same thing? (Because they don't actually respect women to begin with? Women = s.e.x. in their view?) If men do not cover their forearms, calves and hair, then women should not be asked to do the same. There is no difference in biology in that regard. Any man who thinks that women don't find men as equally nice to look at is deluded. A double standard should not be maintained, and the fact that holy books written by men support a double standard is disappointing. Should I conclude that religion is not for women then, if we are to be treated like lesser beings? kanelli Here is a quote from Sheikh Taj Aldin Al-Hilali's sermon during Ramadan. "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" "The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." He also thinks that women should not "sway suggestively", wear make-up, or go out without wearing a hijab. (Quotes from 7Days 27th Oct., 2006) This is so shocking and blatantly s.e.x.ist and misogynistic that it isn't funny. :evil: Many men and brainwashed women think this way though. Perhaps someday men will be held accountable for their bad behaviour and disrespect of women. Afterall, any intelligent man knows that a woman is his EQUAL and is not just around for s.e.x.ual gratification and house cleaning. The rest are just Neanderthalish morons. I seriously hope that the Islamic population in Australia get rid of this man, unless they agree that what he says is in line with what the Quran teaches about women. shafique I read that he has been suspended - and rightly too, he went too far to suggest it is the woman's fault for s.e.x.ual crimes.
Islam does ask believers, men and women, to dress modestly. Women have more to cover up than men, due to biology - and in any case believers are told to 'guard their eyes' i.e. don't ogle.
And dressing modestly is actually part of many religions - look at the habits of nuns, headcoverings of Mother Teresa and her sisters, robes of monks, covered heads of othodox Christian ladies etc etc.
On the question of dress though - it reminds me of a Dave Chappelle joke (a black standup comic from the States - loads of clips on youtube).
I paraphrase :

That's another thing men keep getting wrong - we approach these women dressed skimpily and get the retort "just because we dress this way doesn't make us hoes"
Don't get me wrong - you women are absolutely right - just because you dress that way doesn't make you hoes.
Buuuut - this is where it's confusing for guys....... you're are dressing like hoes.... I mean it's like if Dave Chappelle dressed like a cop and stood at a corner, someone runs up to me and says 'come quick I need help'. I would just reply 'just because I dress like THIS doesn't make me a cop!'
I mean come on ladies - you are wearing the hoes uniform!!
The ladies in the audience were laughing the loudest.
:)
Cheers,
Shafique asc_26 Very well said Kanelli. :wink: kanelli
The same applies to them - there is a blatant double standard. At least monks and priests wear robes that cover their bodies as modestly as the nuns are expected to dress. That is something you don't always see on the part of men in other cases.

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mema [quote="satan-the-redeema"]
white people...do u even read the shit u write :x bushra21 that sheikh wouldnt be too fond of me then :D mema
so k if we can set benchmarks to what is modest and what is not..a girl with mini skirt u set her as attention seeker n might deserve all the se.xu.al comments coming her way bt can't she simply like wearing miniskirts and doesn't want any attention ,who r we to set rules and judge. who r we to also judge a person that feels comfortable in modesty in covering her hair face or arms. why do u think men made these rules in society, as we believe it..its from the creator he is not unreasonable and understands the mankind’s weakness .
n when u say other cultures r u comparing western and eastern (non Islamic/Islamic) cuz dear I've tasted both while uncovering my hair,my arms n legs and there were respectable men from both sides and unrespectable prevs from both side. shafique
Umm - do you think 'dishdashs', kandooras, Shalwar Kameez's are more revealing then a monk's robe?
But at the end of the day, you are right - Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Orthodox Jews and other religions do have double standards when it comes to covering of hair. We see it in the same way as the other double standard of covering up bare chests - you obviously do not.
Let's agree to disagree on this point.
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli
Actually, I never said those were more revealing at all. Shafique, the men are not expected to wear dishdashs, kandooras, Shalwar Kameez's in Australia and many other non-Islamic countries. Even here in Dubai you can find women covered from head to toe walking next to their husbands who are dressed in a t-shirt/tank top, shorts and baseball hat. It is excellent when I do see the men dressed from wrist to ankle like the women are - at least those men are being fair and giving the same respect to their religion and wife as they expect their wife to follow. The orthodox Jewish men I encountered in Toronto and Montreal were also as conservatively dressed as their women were. As for Christians, there is no dress code for Christian men and women - they wear whatever they want.
Shaf, I don't understand what you are saying about bare chests. Please clarify. It is my personal opinion that the only appropriate public place for bare chests is the beach or one's own backyard or home. Sure, bare chests are shown in public advertising in many countries, but that is acceptable there. How else do you advertise swimwear and lingerie? In some cultures, complete nudity is not a problem. I'm quite used to going to the sauna buck naked and then going out to the lake to swim buck naked. In Finland if you are going fishing on a lake you can easily see groups of men or women in the distance who are swimming buck naked after going to the sauna at the cottage. It is no big deal! You can't get more equal than being equally completely naked. :lol: These kinds of cultures are ones where men are more holistically respectful of women because they have seen naked women since they were children. They see women as people, not just s.e.x.ual objects that need to be covered up.
If some cultures or religions call for women to be very conservative in their dress, the men should also follow that rule and be respectful of the women. The Australian cleric was not respectful in the slightest with his comments. Is a man who does not cover up from wrist to ankle also not comparable to a piece of meat that cats are tempted to eat? If men are not being raped or abused for wearing shorts and t-shirts and having uncovered hair, then why should women be subjected to that? What right to do men have to punish a woman for her choice of dress? Either they are respectful men or they aren't - that is the nitty gritty.
mema, I never said that women DESERVE men making comments, they just shouldn't be surprised if some badly behaving men do it. Men should not make s.e.x.ually harrassing comments at all, but some pigish men do. If women want to wear mini-skirts and skimpy tops and show their midriffs they cannot realistically expect all men to just ignore them. It is the same for men who walk around without a shirt on - women will pay more attention (if they look good without a shirt that is :)).
All I am saying is we need some common sense, some questioning of previously accepted double standards, and some more respect for women as human beings . shafique Clarifications to previous post: 1. kandooras etc are what many Muslim men wear - they are as concealing as any hijab etc, with the exception of the hair. 2. Orthodox Christian women, Orthodox Jewish Women, Catholic nuns (with exceptions now) all cover their hair out of modesty, but do not require men to cover to the same extent. (hence a 'double standard') 3. Baring of chests is also subject to 'double standards' when it comes to men and women. Most cultures would view a bare male chest as less immodest than a bare woman's chest. 4. It is a matter of opinion whether covering of the hair falls under 'acceptable double standard' of point 3. or unacceptable double standard. Naturists and some tribes in Africa and South America and Far East will argue there is nothing wrong with not covering the chest at all.. others will disagree. Islam teaches that the hair is part of a lady's beauty and should not be on open display to all and sundry - it is a teaching shared by those of point 2 above. I hope I've clarified what I meant in the previous post. Cheers, Shafique shafique I just did a quick Google on incidences of rape in Finland and came up with this article: The US has the highest rate (per 100,000), and Japan the lowest. Turkey is near the bottom, whilst Norway, Sweden are near the top. COUNTRY RAPE RATE Austria 6.35 Belgium 7.83 Czeck Republic 4.85 Denmark 9.32 Finland 11.18 France 14.45 Germany 9.13 Greece 2.29 Ireland 6.01 Japan 1.78 Korea, South 4.86 Netherlands 10.39 Norway 15.12 Poland 6.21 Portugal 1.41 Slovakia 2.84 Spain 3.09 Sweden 22.58 Switzerland 5.61 Turkey 2.33 United Kingdom 14.69 United States 32.05 Chocoholic But wait a minute....what about the 'Australian' way of life? People in this continent naturally dress they way they do, because of their mainly 'sun-drenched' lifestyles. It's a way of life there, so should these idiots making ridiculous comments like this Imam not be respecting the 'Aussie' way of life? Should they not be integrating? Why is he forcing his views and his religion on people and a place where it is the minority? People have been calling for him to be banned and deported and rightly so. shafique Chocs - the guy is Egyptian born and can't speak English fluently (I finally found out in a BBC news item). From the reports - wasn't he telling muslim women to wear the hijab, not wear makeup and 'sway' etc? I don't agree with what he said - it was too extreme - but if the intention was to explain (again) what Islam demands of believers in terms of dress, then he is entitled to his views. Note that he did not say that it was ok for Muslim, or any other, men to go out and abuse women. That would be a deporting matter. He inarticulately said that women who did not dress modestly, in his eyes, were attracting attention and contributing to the harrassment. Many will disagree with this and find it offensive - but is it a deporting matter? Had he said it was ok to ogle, molest and harrass women wearing skimpy clothes - then he should be prosecuted and deported. But I don't think he said this - did he? Cheers, Shafique
kanelli So Shafique, you are assuming that rape is high in those countries because women don't cover every inch of skin except hands, feet and face? kanelli I grew up playing with mostly boys on my street when I was a child, I lived on a co-ed floor in university residence where everything was shared, including the common bathroom, and I have always been free to dress how I like. I have never been raped. If women are in such danger if not covered from head to toe - how do you explain women like me? Am I to assume that the men where I come from are dysfunctional because they are not following the supposed divinely appointed differences between men and women by not being mindlessly enticed into rape by women who dare to mix with them as equals and dress as they please? bear
This is true,
However, you are disregarding the 1 in ten men (or what ever the actual ratio is) who is not an up standing, well balanced member of society and is mental capable of committing rape.
Would not women as a whole rather protect themselves from him?
(Just to clarify, as far as I am concerned wearing hijab and abbaya is not my business. However, Modest dress is a must for any man or woman. Regardless of where they are from, or their theological beliefs. If you must, leave your skimpy clothing for somewhere you know you are safe.)

This is perfect, and so very true.
Every time I read a post of yours I am amazed. shafique
Kanelli - I only posted the stats as you said that nudity was not a big issue in Finland, which led to women not being objectified:
"These kinds of cultures are ones where men are more holistically respectful of women because they have seen naked women since they were children. "
I provided the source of the figures and commented on the high and lowest countries.
In Japan, nudity is a big taboo and they have the lowest rates of rape cited, whereas I was surprised to see the nordic countries high up on the list (where as you rightly say nudity is not a big issue).
Japan is a quite misogynistic society - women are definitely not equal.
I would have a hard time calling the high rape rates in Sweden, Norway as evidence for a 'holistic respect for women'.
The only 'muslim' country on the list is Turkey.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
This could be viewed as a question of risk analysis. We all agree rape is a bad thing and we should do what we can to prevent it - at an individual level and at a societal level. All societies have laws which punish rapists - so it is viewed as a crime.
It now becomes a value judgement as to how people want to modify their behaviour to reduce the risk of rape.
One extreme is to decide to never be alone with a single male who is not a relative in a situation that could lead to the act. Another is to dress like many religious women around the world dress, and limit social contact with men to work situations and family outings etc (eg. not get drunk at bars alone etc).
We should be grateful that rape is a minority crime - the majority of women do not experience this heinous crime. However - even though only a tiny minority of women are abused this way, we find it sufficiently heinous that we would want to prevent it, if we can.
Wearing seatbelts saves lives - but there are many, many people that can rightly say "I've never had an accident... explain that to me".
The frightening thing though Kanelli is the fact that rape charities in the US and Europe all say that Rape is much UNDER-REPORTED - so the actual figures quoted are much higher.
Common sense tells me that modestly dressed Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and Muslim women have lower rates of rape than immodestly dressed women (all other things equal) - primarily down to the former avoiding situations that could lead to rape (and not necessarily because of their dress).
Cheers,
Shafique rvp_legend I think its about time (in Europe + US+Aus'lasia) we had Western Educated, Religious scholars for every religion, in particular Islam. I believe there are very suitable candidates in each country in Europe and N America who have sufficient understanding of their domestic cultures and sensitivities as well as deep understanding of their faith. Take for example, Hamza Yousuf in the states. He is a communicator, but also understands the complexities in his homeland so therefore his speeches are less provocative, even if he tries to convey the same message. Yousuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens) in Britain is a fantastic communcator who maybe not clergy, but has some good knowledge about his faith. Persons like him, could be utilised to draw up and "politically correct" drafts of speeches so in future these situations do not get hijacked by the tabloids or more importantly cause offence to the domestic populous. It is important to remember, that its not just the host nations which have to respect the sensitivies of the ethnic/foreign groups, but the opposite too. Now this is not an attack, im often accused of being a "Muslimist" or "Islamist", but i feel that the Aussie cleric is a classic example of someone who has poor communication skills and is/was completely unaware of the response their speeches would bring. Either that or he was just an absolute plank, and disrespected the feelings of the people in his homeland. He is entitled to his own opinion, but he is a mufti and therefore represents a large group. In a nation, riddled with racism and now Anti islamic sentiments, it was an extremely stupid thing to do. Just look George W. Bush, the Pope, and many others have made silly mistakes with the speeches, I believe the Clerics can also take this opportunity to avoid such actions by hiring a few speech therapists. mema rvp i agree 100000000000000000000000% Chocoholic Shaf, A few points regarding your reply to my post. First off if the guy can hardly speak English, then what is he doing residing in Australia in the first place? Aren't all immigrants expected to show proficiency in the English language? Yes they are. Secondly he described women who do not wear head scarves as 'uncovered meat, inviting attack'. Sorry but to me this is awful, he basically was saying that if a women wearing suggestive clothes gets attacked or raped then it's her own fault. He should be thrwon out, end of. bushra21 I agree with Chocs...he is inciting, or encouraging violent acts against women by saying that if they dont cover then they will be attacked and its their own fault.... I can't stand people who interpret religion as they want...makes the religion itself look bad, as well as those who actually try to follow it correctly freza
I'm sure this cleric's English is as good as your Arabic... rvp_legend
Thats a very fair point. Chocoholic No it's not a fair point at all! People residing in Australia are required to prove that they can communicate at a certain level in English. All people applying for visas whose first language is not English, must prove that they are proficient in the language. Your comment is irrelevent, as we are not talking about me, or my arabic skills, as living and working in the UAE people are not required to speak Arabic or prove that they can speak Arabic. But in Australia you 'must' be able to speak and write English to Governmentally accepted level and prove it. Plus reading the comments he was quoted as saying, his English appears to be very good, which makes what he said even worse, as he knew exactly what he was saying and the meaning of it. Also who's to say that he didn't give the surmon in Arabic and what he said has been translated into English? I'm appalled that you would try and defend someone who would see women abused and them blame the women for the actions of men, because of the way they're dressed. And I'm especially appalled seeing as you are a woman yourself! Chocoholic John Howard is very specific over how people coming and residing in Australia should indegrate into the Aussie way of life, basically it's the Aussie way or get out! Many locals here are allowed to say that to people coming to the UAE, so why should another country not have the same policy? The guy has got to go - end of! Anyone who would deliberately incite attacks on women or any group of people for that matter, has no business to say such things. On the other hand you'd be up in arms if a Priest said all muslim women are open to attacks and accusations of being terrorists because of wearing an abaya or hijab! shafique
Chocs - where did he incite attacks? shafique
Have you heard what Boris Johnson has said on so many occasions in the UK?
What about all the Gaffes made by Prince Phillip?
I reckon we should kick Prince Phillip back to Greece - what do you think?
:)
I'm sorry, but did you read somewhere that he said it was ok to attack women scantily dressed? Is he not allowed to have the opinion that women should dress modestly and that this has beneficial effects?
If you throw him out, you'll have to throw out all the juries that have blamed the women in rape cases and found in favour of the alleged rapists..(a large majority of them will have thought the lady in question was not raped, but that intercourse had taken place).
This has more than a whiff of islamophobia methinks.
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli A huge percentage of rapes are date rapes and it happens when both parties are drunk. The Nordic countries have a huge drinking culture. It is not disrespect that causes these rapes, it is miscommunication because neither person has enough control over their faculties. The Japanese don't drink as much as the Nordics do. Japan may not have a lot of nudity, but they have lots of skimpy clothes a very free s.e.x.ual culture there. Urban school girls can often take on older "boyfriends" in order to get money from them to buy the latest clothes and trendy gadgets. Maybe the men are more easily able to pay for s.e.x and don't feel the need to rape? The reporting rate of rapes in different countries varies and it is very difficult to get accurate figures - this is very important to remember. In some countries the rapes can be severly under-reported. There is much more to what causes rape to happen than what the woman is wearing. bushra21
Kanelli....rape isnt for s e xual fullfilment or pleasure....its for dominance, power, and sense of control. kanelli The cleric didn't incite attacks. He just gave the men a good mental justification for if they do decide to rape a woman who was not covering up. He also lets the women know that they should keep their mouths shut and don't complain if they are raped because it was their fault for not covering up. bushra21
doesnt that also mean he is saying its ok then to rape them? kanelli
That is true for the most part, but in so many cases of rape it happens because the two people were drunk and fooling around and the guy goes too far. Some date rapes are definitely about power, and marital rape and rape committed by strangers who suddenly attack a woman in her home or in a public place are also definitely about power and violence, not necessarily s.e.x.ual gratification.
Very interesting to think that women are asked to cover up to protect themselves from dangerous men, meanwhile rape is often about power and violence. It could very well be that covered women are as susceptible to rape as uncovered women if you take out the factors of alcohol and being in the situation of making out with a guy. shafique
So the cleric was giving muslim men a reason to rape?
The cleric was telling rape victims not to complain?
ok - I must have missed that bit of the report. I was labouring under the misaprehension that he was preaching to muslims and telling muslim women how to dress and behave (and note I think he went too far).
Thanks for clarifying that he was giving muslim men 'a good mental justification' for rape.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
Muslim men and women are told to dress modestly and to avoid situations where the approaches to fornication (let alone the act) may occur.
I really had to do a double take when reading the posts above - could it be that someone was condoning the rape figures and explaining them as a (welcome?) side-effect of female liberation?
Wow.
rape is rape, isn't it?
Cheers,
Shafique Chocoholic Shaf, This is what he said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" he said. "The uncovered meat is the problem. If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred." shafique
Japanese don't drink as much as the Nordic countries? Would you care to substantiate this - perhaps showing beer/alcohol consumption per head (you may be right, but I don't want to be seen as kanelli bashing by looking up stats to challenge your statements :) ). My understanding of Japan is that it is a binge drinking culture with large amounts of alcohol consumed per head - I would be surprised if they consumption was not to the same level as nordic countries.
The rape levels were approximately 1 tenth of those in the nordic countries.
Your above statement also begs the question : what happened to your point that in Finland the men had a 'holistic' view of women and respected them more? Did you forget to add 'when they are sober'?
I've never used the arguement for the social ill of alcohol that it causes 'a huge percentage of rapes' - so thank you for pointing this nugget of information out... at least we can agree that practicing muslim women do not figure in this 'huge percentage'.
Cheers,
Shafique shafique sorry, I couldn't resist a search. The WHO have country stats of alcohol consumption from the 1960s to 2001 at : http://www3.who.int/whosis/alcohol/alcohol_apc_data.cfm?path=whosis,alcohol,alcohol_apc,alcohol_apc_data&language=english In 2001, Finland consumed 10.43 litres per head, to Japan's 7.38 litres. Norway consumed less at 5.81 litres. So Japan is lower than Finland, but higher than Norway. USA 8.4L. Begs the question then, why is Japan's rape rate so much lower? Cheers, Shafique rvp_legend
It was a fair point, as you didnt provide the context and i interpreted it the same way as Freza did.
In addition to that, There is also a citizenship test in Britain now, people may pass the exam after some heavy revision, but it doesnt mean they know anything else! or that they will always remember it. rvp_legend
Forgive me if im mistaken, but from my reading of the statement i got the impression his comments were more encouraging modest dressing.
Where did the encouragement of rape come from?
What he should have said was, Women to be more carefull, if that means more modest dressing, then so be it and men to take full responsibilities for their actions. He should have also commented on the condemnation of rape in Islam and this would have been settled.
Once again, i believe there are many who require speech therapists. Him on of them. Chocoholic Regardless, his comments were still offensive and incitful, if you condone that, then sorry to say there's something very wrong with you. rvp_legend
So now you are accusing ME of condoning Rape, in any form?
Have you read ANY of my posts? ever?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Chocoholic I didn't say that. I just couldn't understand why you sidetracked the discussion, who cares if the guy can speak English/Arabic whatever, the point is he made awful comments and they should be condemed, whatever. I have read your posts and totally agree with you where you stated that countries should have Islamic representatives that are in touch with the local way of life and the changing societies. shafique
The comments were offensive yes.
But how were they inciting anyone to violence/rape? Are you saying that his congregation heard him whilst fasting and thought - wow, that gives me the green light to rape???
Please, pull the other one it has bells on.
It's all good and well condemning the guy for what he said - but why accuse a man of inciting rape when, as far as I can tell, no one else is accusing him of this crime. Incitement to violence is a crime in Australia too. If you have any evidence, let's hear it and pass it on to the authorities.
If you don't have any evidence... doesn't that reflect badly on the accuser? Or is ok now to accuse a Muslim cleric of inciting rape without evidence?
strewth.
Cheers,
Shafique Chocoholic They have been accusing him of that! Did you not read the direct quote I posted earlier from what he said? Go back and read it again and tell me how this is not giving the grren light as you put it, to give men an excuse to harrass or assault women. shafique
Green light to whom Chocs? Do you really think the congregation took it as such? Do you think non-Muslim potential rapists are going to listen and obey the sermon?
Has he been charged with inciting violence and rape?
I agree with RVP-s statement above about what the guy was trying to say but got it awefully wrong. No where in what you and others quoted is there anything saying that it was ok for men to rape.
A long way back, I condemned the guy in the second post in this thread. I still do - he needs to choose his words correctly. I have no reason not to believe his apology and the clarifications from the mosque spokesman
Cheers,
Shafique shafique The apology:
In a statement released on Thursday, Sheikh Hilali said he had been quoting another, unnamed, source and did not mean his words to condone rape.
"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.
"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.
"Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."
A spokesman for Sheikh Hilali earlier said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault, but to sexual infidelity.
The sermon was targeted against men and women who engaged in extra-marital sex and did so through alluring types of clothes, he said. Chocoholic Yes I have read the apology, and if it is heart felt and genuine, then fine. However he should have known better, than to say such things in the first place. Did the Pope's words and sermon also get taken wrongly and out of context? I think they did! shafique
Excellent - we agree then.
I accepted the Pope's apology - and he too should have known better.
Which reminds me, someone said on the 17th Sept that the aftermath of the Pope's message would lead to reactions comparable to Israel's reaction to Lebanon. I said we'd re-visit the situation in a months time - I'm glad to see that I was right and that there haven't been the mass killings we saw in Lebanon - or any violence after the initial protests and that nun being killed in Africa (they caught the suspects a few days later, but we haven't heard whether the cause of the murder was the Pope's speech - interesting that.... worth another search). sorry for the digression.
What the cleric said was wrong, he apologised and blamed his lack of fluency in English and maintained he was quoted out of context.
Similarly the Pope has apologised.
Cheers,
Shafique Chocoholic Going on a slight tangent, but maybe religious leaders should leanr a little something from the music industry. Rapper Eminem is well known for talking about shooting people, inciting violence and being homophobic, but he says, 'I might rap about killing people, but it doesn't mean I'd actually do it!'. valkyrie
That's a non-apology, actually. He's sorry people were offended, not that he made these comments.
Ironically similar to the pope's non-apology over his controversial comments about Islam.
It's positive, certainly, that many people, including many Muslims, are outraged over this sheikh's comments. A number of Muslim groups and individuals have called for his resignation.
And nothing was misconstrued about these statements. That's a standard dodge this guy uses repeatedly. rvp_legend
Hmm... i only agreed with a comment by Freza, which was about, what appreared to be an odd comment regarding language fluency.
you then cleared this up, so matter was over far as i was concerned.
regarding any incitement.... i think it would be great if someone could gets his views also on rape (his islamic interpretation)...i will also look for it.
Maybe theN it would make sense to debate this further and in more depth. valkyrie
You can research this for yourself, but most rape cases are reportedly being committed by 'foreignors' from Muslim countries.
Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
I would bet dollars to doughnuts that cases of rape in Muslim countries is lower then the west simply because women are in a climate of fear to report their rape.
Law punishes victims of rape in Pakistan
According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. The frequency of rape is thought to be much higher but many rapes remain unreported due to a combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization by the police. Meanwhile, Pakistani law is punishing victims of rape as though they were criminals while the perpetrators go free.
shafique
I disagree - I am of the opinion that Religious leaders (and leaders in general) should mean what they say and practice what they preach (call me a rebel, if you wish :) )
Cheers,
Shafique shafique
Ok Valkyrie - I believe you, it is the Muslims who are raping the blond nordic ladies.
Perhaps they are also to blame for the rapes in the US as well?
Did you know that there is a very large Pakistani immigrant population in Japan as well (Muslim) - I have friends with relatives there. In the aftermath of the Kobe earthquake, the first group on the scene in some areas offering humanitarian assistance was a Pakistani Muslim charity group, for example, it took another day for the local authorities to gear up and take over the work.
Therefore, the low rape rates in Japan can't be explained by the lack of immigrants.. or can you come up with another theory blaming the muslims.
Abuse of women in many countries is well documented - India, China and yes Pakistan. I condemn all such abuses unreservedly - as do all religious people. However I can't see the arguement that it somehow makes the rape rates in the US and Europe any more palatable or acceptable.
Respect to you for the brilliant way in which you have turned the blame of rape in the west onto muslims. I'm sure you believe it too.
Cheers,
Shafique sniper420
well choco u r taking that out of context........ that's why "clash of civilisation" occurs....... first to see the point of view of the cleric u have to see and undertand islamic way of life........which doesnt even allow staring erotically at women. Sofor men to have better self-control he went too far to analogise the "uncovered meat" . If u read the complete story published in BBC u will see what he said. As far as I know rape is illegal in islam so howthey hell can he give green light for raping women. But i dont accept the fact that he is deeming muslim women to b reponsible for rape. whatever he made his point but those grown up muslim men must differentiate right form wrong living in the country. kanelli Shafique, you must have missed all the posts where the different reasons and causes of rape were discussed. We can play with stats forever if you like. For example, can you tell me that Japanese women have as high a reporting rate for rape that the women in the Nordic countries have? Do you suspect that there may be some cultural differences involved? Also, who is doing the binge drinking? The men or women or both? Does high alcohol consumption mean binge drinking? Are there any pieces of research that can definitely correlate that a scantily clad woman is more likely to be raped? I fully stand by the statement that Finnish men are more respectful of women than men in some other cultures. They don't stare, touch and verbally or physically harrass women who aren't covered up. Look at the laws applied equally to men and women. Look at how many women are involved in government compared to other countries that say that government is the domain of men. There is a female President and was a female Prime Minister (although Jaateenmaki had to resign over misconduct). On the whole, Finnish men see women as their equals who are subject to the same rules they are. There is a lot of suicide, violent crime, and domestic abuse in Finland related to alcohol use - so why is it so hard to believe that rape is sometimes caused by alcohol abuse as well? Alcohol causes lots of problems - and in this case, I would identify that as a big reason for rape in Finland - not what the women are wearing and not as a sign that Finnish men are more disrespectful to their women. kanelli The message of the cleric was that the cats can't be faulted for eating the uncovered meat. So yes, the cleric was implying that men are like cats and can't help but eat the uncovered meat - so they can't be faulted. It also implies that women who have not covered themselves should expect to be fed on by the men - so cover yourself or don't complain because the "cats" aren't to blame. shafique
So you don't believe his apology and explanation?
As for rape stats - why let the figures change one's opinion? I don't have any way to confirm or deny or second-guess the figures.
Let's agree to disagree.
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli I believe that in hindsight he likely sees how offensive his comparison was. Everyone makes mistakes, and it is excellent that he apologised. In the case of both the Pope's offensive comments and this Imam's offensive comments - the damage is likely done, despite the apologies. That is the sad part. There are many in's and out's to consider when interpreting and comparing stats, as you know. That is why people can drive each other nuts trying to hash it all out by throwing figures around trying to refute other figures. I can only speak from my own experience that I have never been attacked or abused by men because I dared to show my hair, my calves or my arms. I wonder who in Australia the Imam thought would be harrassing and abusing the Muslim women who did not wear hijab etc.? shafique
What, kanelli, do you think is the damage that the cleric did? Do you think muslims will think it ok to rape?
The Pope's comments may have reinforced views that Islam was spread by the sword and the Quran condones this.
There may be damage in people thinking that Muslims believe it ok to attack women when the reality is that Islam empowered women centuries before the rest of the world did and the hijab etc liberates women from unwanted attention and allows women to participate freely in society.
As for the stats - Japanese rape rates are low because there is still a very strong sense of personal honour in Japan - this translates into modesty in behaviour and restraint generally, despite heavy drinking. I do not think it is under-reporting. Similarly, Muslim men have respect for women and view them as the pillars of society - they are our mothers and sisters.
You say that many rapes are under the influence of alcohol and say that the Finns etc drink a lot. On balance, that is a good argument to expect rape rates to be lower in Muslim countries.
Even on the domestic abuse cases - alcohol is the main factor according to the reports I've read.
The Australian cleric's sermon and clarification did not say to men to disrespect women.
So again, what damage?
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli I have already explained my perspective throughout all my posts. I can't add anything more. It is completely inappropriate to preach to men that uncovered women are putting themselves out there for attack in a country where the majority of the women are uncovered. There is no correlation between a woman not covering her hair or showing some arm or leg being attacked by men compared to women who cover up completely - especially in a society where most women are uncovered. Therefore, I argue that the Quran and other holy books are archaic to suggest that women need to cover all of their skin to be protected from men - especially in non-covering cultures. I have lived my whole life as an uncovered woman and I can say that telling women to cover completely to protect them from men is only scaremongering (in uncovering societies at least). Islam in the past gave women more rights than other neighbouring civilisatons, but that was in the past. I would say things have regressed. It is the same as how all the great Islamic thought of the past that saw many of the world's great inventions was also curtailed by fellow Muslims who wanted strict political and religious power over the population. I could never truly enjoy life if I were to be barred from having male colleagues, schoolmates, and friends - just to stay locked away for a future husband and protect me from supposed danger. I value my friendships with male friends and find it only natural to work side-by-side with men. I am pleased that I can vote, dress how I like, and pursue any career I like. This is simply not the case for women in other parts of the world. shafique It is completely inappropriate to preach to men that uncovered women are putting themselves out there for attack in a country where the majority of the women are uncovered.
Agreed. He agrees too - the advice he was giving was to Muslim men and women.
There is no correlation between a woman not covering her hair or showing some arm or leg being attacked by men compared to women who cover up completely - especially in a society where most women are uncovered.
Dressing modestly is only part of it - one can act provokatively even when fully covered up. The Quran even addresses this - telling women not to violate the spirit of 'covering' up by rattling their jewellery etc.
Therefore, I argue that the Quran and other holy books are archaic to suggest that women need to cover all of their skin to be protected from men - especially in non-covering cultures.
It's not a question of being protected from men - but a recognition that one can choose to flaunt one's body or choose to share the beauty of the human form only within the marital home
I have lived my whole life as an uncovered woman and I can say that telling women to cover completely to protect them from men is only scaremongering (in uncovering societies at least).
I think you're missing the point here. Muslim women cover up only in the presence of men outside their immediate family - wearing the outer clothing is to give them the freedom to mix in society freely, a liberty that men are not given (i.e. men can't cover up and go into female only areas).
With the debate over the veil etc in the UK, what has been brought forward is people's own insecurities and a negation of the views and feelings of those who do want to cover up.
Islam in the past gave women more rights than other neighbouring civilisatons, but that was in the past. I would say things have regressed.
Islam hasn't changed - women still have the rights under Islam that were given 1500 years ago. The right to own property, inherit wealth, to divorce etc. They also have the added benefit of being held in very high regard and cherished.
Yes, some Muslim women are culturally being abused - but look at women in Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh and even Pakistan - women are fully participating in all areas of society from Prime Minister downwards.
It is the same as how all the great Islamic thought of the past that saw many of the world's great inventions was also curtailed by fellow Muslims who wanted strict political and religious power over the population.
No argument here - the 'middle ages of Islam' is what we're going through with politically minded clerics misusing religion in some instances.
I could never truly enjoy life if I were to be barred from having male colleagues, schoolmates, and friends - just to stay locked away for a future husband and protect me from supposed danger.
This exposes your predjudice more than the reality of women who choose to wear the veil. Women wear the veil or hijab when they are mixing in society and in the presence of male colleagues, schoolmantes and friends.
I value my friendships with male friends and find it only natural to work side-by-side with men. I am pleased that I can vote, dress how I like, and pursue any career I like.
So do Iranian, Malaysian etc etc women. Muslim women are pleased they were given rights 1500 years ago that were only given to European women in the 20th Century. We are pleased you have caught up.
:)
Cheers,
Shafique valkyrie edit: kanelli Shafique, I am happy that you are proud of your religion, but we can definitely see that you think your invisible friend is superior to all the others. :lol: shafique
My invisible friend tells me to get along with everyone else and protect those who need protecting, whether they believe in Him or not.
:)
Cheers,
Shafique St.Lucifer
Thats something I've never heard of Islam or the so called preachers of the religion. They say believing is the only way.
And as for the original issue,I think the cleric may have been right when he equated men to cats. For a reason, the religion was formed at a time and in a region where majority of the men were just brain less fools, who were fighting for everything. from money to women. So at that time, it was pretty correct and understandable that the wise men made rules that protected women from attacks by unwanted twats...
but the Cleric forgot the reality that the world has changed. :roll:
And there's no point in arguing. Coz the preachers of religions' inject thier thoughts and theories into people's mind and limit people to think only in one way, that is.. what ever said their religion is the best and only way. freza St Lucifer These statements clearly reflect more on your own misconceptions (about this and other established religions) than on the real or purposely distorted issues surrounding the religion itself. rvp_legend
Im not sure i agree with any of this.
The modest dressing and "protection" of women was present before Islam.
Just like the preachers inject their thoughts, the Audience do the same. valkyrie
shafique Still flogging this horse? :)
Note the distinction between adultery and rape - he says that in 90% of cases of adultery, he blames the woman - as they possess the 'weapons of seduction'.
That's an interesting view - effectively saying that women have more control than men when it comes to adultery. That's a separate debate and one I'm not qualified to argue either way :) .
I don't agree with the quote where a jurist says a rape victim should be imprisoned for life!
But the structure of the sermon implies he's talking about adultery when he makes the unfortunate comments about 'uncovered meat'.
BTW - The guy apologised, clarified what he meant, was suspeneded, requested indefinite leave and then suffered a heart attack!
[Oh, and where he is quoted as saying 'in house, wearing hijab' - they are exclusive comments - you don't wear a Hijab in the house or your room normally, it is worn outdoors when in presence of un-related men - therefore he's not saying women should stay indoors, but is saying if they weren't in the presence of men or dressed modestly when in public, then the 'weapons of seduction' wouldn't be unleashed! :) I wouldn't have said this in the way he did and he paid the price for his sermon.. ]
Cheers,
Shafique valkyrie He was sorry people were offended, not that he made those comments. shafique
I think he went beyond that - he clarified what he said and that he did not condone the attacking of women:
"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments. I had only intended to protect women's honour," the statement published in The Australian said.
"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and the right to dress as they choose.
"Whether a man endorses or not a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."
Cheers,
Shafique valkyrie
65-year old Sheikh Taj Din al-Hilaly, the Egyptian-born imam of the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney, is no stranger to controversy. In 1988 he notoriously addressed Muslim students in Sydney University with a speech about Jews in which he said, amongst other things: "The Jews try to control the world through s.e.x, then s.e.xual perversion, then the promotion of espionage, traitory, and economic hoarding."
As well as his anti-semitism, Hilaly has some strange views on terrorism. He is reputed to have been caught on camera, weeks prior to the 9/11 attacks, extolling Islamic suicide bombers in the Middle East, calling them "heroes', stated Australian Liberal Party MP, Christopher Pyne. The imam has, since 1989, been paid an annual salary of 40,000 Australian dollars ($29,668 US) from the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) to be Australia's "mufti".
sniper420 [quote="valkyrie"]
haha that old man has some valid points. i aint anti semitic but val turn on the TV and look for yer self........hustler's jeremy who wants his children to follow orthodox judaism while he does stuffs too outrageous for judaism, South park's authors who has so much explicit crap going on (interestingly: if u did watch richard dawkins he questioned a rabbi in London and ridiculed him South Park immediately releases an episode ridiculing Richard). Moreover most of the tv networks and hollywood (from oscars to distributers) are controlled by Jews, even the business from pepsi to pand G to johnson and johnson which has very huge influence in west cos ours is a consumer soceity and democracy so only way to change and control views of ppl is only through media and government that's why AIPAC has huuuge control on the most powerful nation.
interestingly even Borat who is sasha cohen a supposedly orthodox Jew tries in his recent movie to prove Jews are innocent and spanks the rest of the gang espcially those boys in trailer who were drunk by taking em to a bar and then using em....the rest is ur homework val kanelli :roll:



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