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Airplane terror plot foiled in UK


kanelli I'm sure most of us are aware of this story today.
'Plot to blow up planes' foiled
All airports have been put under the restrictions
A terrorist plot to blow up planes in mid-flight from the UK to the US has been disrupted, Scotland Yard has said.
It is thought the plan was to detonate explosive devices smuggled on aircraft in hand luggage.
kanelli /me waits for Lionheart to post and say that all the people arrested were framed and the whole terror plot and subsequent arrests are a conspiracy. :D Chocoholic Hey, I was reading it this morning, very scary indeed. Corcovado its the unfair statement of the british goverment with US goverment toward the arab world and lebanon thats causing this hatred... and like usual the innocents pay the bloody price , i hope no one gets hurt and i wish this will be a wake up call for england kanelli Just because the airplanes belong to a British airline, and the destination is the US, doesn't mean the terrorists are targeting the right people. How do they know who is flying on those airplanes? What terrorist group do they belong to and what is their agenda? Terrorism will just make people more afraid of Muslims and Arabs - what does that accomplish? Chocoholic The really sad thing is that those who were involved are mostly British-born. Therefore they should be tried for treason, which still carries the death penalty. I also agree with K's comments. Targeting civilians is nothing short of cowardice and accomplishes absolutely nothing. And yes things like this will only go to increase peoples fear and prejudice against certain peoples around the world - sad really. chevaliers-de-sion [quote="Chocoholic"]The really sad thing is that those who were involved are mostly British-born.
and you did`t take any notice of Mr E Powell :D Chocoholic More updates say all those arrested are of Pakistani decent - they should just throw them all bloody well out!!!! THe intention was to blow up around 9 planes on or around sept 11th, targeting American, Continental and United airlines heading for America, using liquid explosives. All passengers are not allowed to carry any hand luggage what-so-ever, no liquids are allowed at all. kanelli Chocs, you can't throw out all Pakistani people from the UK. That wouldn't be fair! The root of the cause is anger at UK foreign policy. I personally don't see why there isn't a bigger Arab/Muslim political lobby instead of small pockets of people banding together to commit suicide in order to terrorise and murder innocent people. Chocoholic K, I didn't mean it like that, although I know that's how it came across. I meant they should throw this lot out and their associates. Clearly a pattern is beginning to form with certain people being involved in this type of thing, so sad to say there has to be more control over who is being let into the country and where certain people are going.

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kanelli The problem is, anyone can start to get angry about Western foreign policy in the Middle East. There is no way to know who is a potential terrorist or not. Chocoholic I know, but sad to say it only seems to be certain groups and that's sad, so what can you do. But certainly the scale of what they discovered is mass murder of innocents. It's really scary. And up there, there is no escape. kanelli I have anxiety when I fly as it is, and yes, when you know that people might be targeting airplines in flight it is pretty darned scary. :( shafique
hmmm - most people think I'm from Pakistani descent.
What if the news was that it was a group of Nepalese hare krishnas, or West Indians, or Albanians, or Irishmen?
When the IRA were bombing the UK mainland, the Irish were viewed with suspicion and I wonder whether there were calls for all the Irish to be repatriated after pub bombings, the Brighton hotel bombing etc... where people were killed?
I am awaiting for all the news to actually unfold - this looks pretty specific threat.. but then again there have been similar scares in the past that have amounted to nothing - eg. the Ricin scare where there was a media blitz and focus on Pakistani decent men that were arrested. But many months later when nothing was found the news was much less prevalent.
This plot, the authorities are saying, involved 21 British born muslims and was well planned and organised. However, not well enough planned to have actually caused any real effect.
Experts on Sky are saying that it is probably not linked to Al-Qaeda...but we have to wait and see.
Ironically, the intent may have been to cause dread and cause maximum disturbance/disruptions.
Most Pakistanis I know are not happy - England trounced them in the second test!!
Cheers,
Shafique chevaliers-de-sion [quote="kanelli"]Chocs, you can't throw out all Pakistani people from the UK.

The root of the cause is anger at UK foreign policy. Well If you do not like it in the UK get on a plane and Go else where where :lol: :lol: :lol: shafique Chevaliers - your avatar is extremely rude and disrespectful. I am shocked that this is being allowed. I know you are trying to be provocative (your screen-name gives this away) - but I think you have crossed the line with a dog seeming to defacate on Arabic script on an Arab flag.. I do hope that the Arabic script does not read God (Allah), for that would be asking for trouble. alexandra why inoccent ppl have to pay the price? and what can be "solved" by terrorising and killing civilians who got nothing to do with the conflict? sickos and cowards :evil: hope the responsables will be jailed for life! I-No-Jack
don't worry shafique i know people in high places (not in the forum but elsewhere) and they may already be knocking at the door. if you want to be nasty then you have to be ready to pay. i think the person won't enjoy prison (specially if it is a guy). stay tuned...
the avatar and post should be deleted by the mods or admin anyway alexandra [quote="chevaliers-de-sion"]
chevaliers-de sion....why don't u do urself and us a fovour and shut up! i don't get what is the funny part in this story? :roll:
arniegang i dont get it, i cant see anything on his avatar except "land of the gods" ?????????????????? I-No-Jack
thanks arnie or maybe he deleted the avatar but i will not call off the operation (see my previous post) unless there is a sencere apology in this forum :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: just that easy arniegang he's just a troll and a arsehole INJ just ignore him :roll: :roll: Corcovado
thats alot of hatred coming from u choc :shock: remember what u used to tell me about hating israelis and wanting to throw them out ?? 8) 8) DO U GET ME NOW? although i am not saying that pakistanis are like Israelis what so ever... ISRAEL IS THE WORST... freza Gosh this is terrible news!!! Those of us traveling to the US & UK are going to have to carry our personal items in small CLEAR plastic bags?! How inconvenient and tacky! How are we supposed to survive a long flight without lotion, eye drops and Evian spritzer? I wonder if they're going to ban lip gloss too..??? arniegang apparently lip gloss will be on the permissable list - thankfully :D :D Lionheart
They are framed until proven guilty in court of law...or is democracy all about putting people on trial on public media. :?:
Anway the timing of this plot is suspicious... blair loosinf support at home, especially his recent green to Zoinist state bombing in Lebanon, Bush's republican party is up reelection on congress, they are behind on most polls...they could use scare tactic to bust their numbers, Isreal needs to deflect world attention away from their massacres in Lebanon..what better way than terror act on London or New York...There are other people deeper pockets, better mind and better motives than 21 angry Pakistanese. But than again if they are found guilty in court of law do whatever you please with them...hang them down town London..gas them..whatever punishment your justice sytem pleases. Concord
what if they were 21 "angry arabs" instead of "21 angry Pakistanese" as you put it should the punishment be the same? kanelli Lionheart appears and states the expected. :wink: Chevaliers - take a hike. We don't like trolls here. I think that many US and British airlines are going to see a major drop in business if passengers, especially business ones, can't bring laptops and carry on bags with their clothes for short trips. I have had my checked luggage lost and damaged, so always keep important things in my carry on bag... For this reason I won't be flying any airline that uses the no carry on bag policy. Concord
K, I think in the long run it will make travelling safer and faster. Much of the delays are experienced while people fumble with the their carry-on at the security check and inside the cabin!
One suggestion is to FedEx or UPS essential stuff via overnight delivery to your hotel, home, etc. If you think about it, even if the carry-on essentials are lost they are easily replacesable anywhere in the world (if these are "irreplaceable (sp?)" then I imagine you wouldn't carry them). Lionheart
21 angry Arabs or 21 angry Pakistanese or 21 angry Turks...it really doesn't matter and for the punishment of they are founf guilty its upto the county they have committed the crime in not me. Concord
Glad to hear Lionheart
Kanelli what happened to innocent till proven guilty in court of law not infront of public media.
Please read about the Jose Padilla the accused dirty bomber who was kept in Isolatation with charge for 3 years...
"In the name of God the merciful the mercy giver," Mr. Padilla wrote, "I have been allowed to write you a card and just letting you know I'm doing fine and in good health. Do not believe what is being said about me in the news it is untrue and I pray that we can have a reunion. Love your son Pucho." Pucho was Mr. Padilla's childhood nickname
kanelli Lionheart, you continuously accuse me of stating that people who are arrested are guilty. In a previous thread about the Toronto arrests, I specifically said "alleged". I also clarified that it is up to the courts. The same goes for this case. It is you who assumes that I find all the arrested people guilty. What I find with your posts is that while you claim that the arrested people are innocent until proven guilty, you always give a guilty verdict to law enforcement and the legal system. You always jump to defend the alleged terrorists by stating your conspiracy theories and pointing only to examples of people being falsely charged with terrorism. Have you forgotten that some people actually are terrorists who aim to kill innocent people, or are you denying that any terrorists exist? Lionheart
If I accused of that than I'm sorry, I apologize.
Know about the Law enforcement the CIA, MI5 and to lesser extent FBI..I personally don't trust what they say most of the time and I have plenty of reasons to be suspicious. But anyway if law enforcement has cases against people they allege to be terrorist than wouldn't be in their interest to put them on trial rather than putting them in dungeon without a trial. I hope Britian puts these alleged terrorist on trial like Canada and not like state.
Kanelli read the link I posted kanelli Whew, that was a long one! :D The way the US government is handling the case is wrong - there should either be enough evidence to bring formal charges to a judge in a reasonable amout of time, or you have to let the person go. The Enemy Combatant and other right-infringing laws the States put into effect after Sept. 11 are shameful and the US has been widely criticised about those. It would be interesting to have an open court session so that everyone can see the evidence. I don't agree that American's should just take the government's word for it that Padilla is guilty. Concord
Fortunately most Americans (vast majority) agree with your post K. This matter will get sorted out for good by the Supreme Court eventually so that it won't happen again. And if Padilla is not guilty then he would have suffered unjustly but will be released [and compensated regardless of the arguments as to what is "compensation'] and if guilty then he should remaing in prison. The point is that this crappy policy will be sorted and luckily Dubya can't be relected (maybe Jeb Bush!!). kanelli Jeb Bush! Oh man... that's a scary thought. I was talking with a friend and we want Oprah Winfrey to be the next US President. :D uae75 [quote="Lionheart"]
[color=red]They are framed until proven guilty in court of law...or is democracy all about putting people on trial on public media. :?: [/color]
Agree totally with your comment Lionheart.......but for some unknown reason, this rule doesnt apply on muslims! Concord I was going to post: it would be nice to know whose text is the one in red and then I figure it out: who gives a crap! Chocoholic LH, If you actually read the order in which things happened, the first arrests were made by Pakistani authorities in Pakistan. Videos have also been found of suspects boasting of the plot, where 7 recruited suicide bombers would bring down planes in the next fortnight. The British forces were therefore forced to move forward their operation to avoid suspects from fleeing. Also soft drinks bottles containing explosive liquids have been found at an address in SE London. Chocoholic Oh and here's a really good one! When police searched the property of one of the suspects arrested in High Wycombe they found.....wait for it......30 Cannabis plants! WTF! So you go all religious, 'allegedly' get involved in planning to blow up planes and yet you're growing weed in your back yard - give me a break. kanelli Oh I see, so the media shouldn't be told that arrests have been made - just to protect the people who were arrested? Do you really think that Western governments are making up false evidence to charge Muslims with terrorism? Everything is a big conspiracy and set-up for Muslims? Give me a break. :evil: Chocoholic Of course they should involve the media, it sends out the message that these people WILL be caught! Also for people to start going around saying the whole thing was made up to take the focus off Lebanon is totally ridiculous. The people that have been arrested are at this stage 'suspects' no charges have been filed against them as yet, police are in the 'case building' stage, where evidence is collected and if there is enough, then it goes to trial for prosecution. Chocoholic If you read the media reports you'll see they are littered with the words 'suspect', 'suspected', 'allegedly', 'believed to be', which means it's all on-going investigation. The media are allowed to publish photos and details of those taken into custody because they are all over the legal age, and it is deemed in the public interest. Also the neighbours of these people obviously have seen what has gone on at the properties, so better to release genuine statements than have chinese whispers going around. kanelli I agree Chocs! The public has a right to know all the details, and anyone with half a brain knows that just because people are arrested doesn't mean they will be convicted. uae75 But what really annoys me, is the fact that they refer to their religion, and not to their nationalities! The media likes to make a big deal of Muslims being terrorist, although they could have simply said that "Few pakistanies were plotting to blow the planes." I dont see the media saying for example there were few british christian kidnappers! they just say Brits! This is the question people should ask themselves? why is the media and the western government trying as hard as they can to scare people of anyone who is muslim!!! uae75
Who said anything about them being religious!! they said they are muslims ,nothing more! U always see cases where you have americans or europeans growing weed, why dont you assume they are "religious" too :wink: kanelli The fact remains that these guys are trying to perpetrate terrorism as radical Muslims. They are doing it in the name of Islam to punish the Western government for their actions in the Middle East. There are no Christians taking part - so far it has only been Muslims. The media always mentions the nationality or background of the people arrested because the public wants to know. The Muslim part is mentioned because it is relevant to the motive for the attacks. Here in the UAE they are also mentioning nationality when reporting crimes etc. in the newspapers. By the way, there was one Belgian woman who converted to Islam after marrying a Muslim guy - and they blew themselves up in Iraq to kill some police. There was also one American and one Australian from Christian backgrounds, who also converted to Islam and ended up becoming involved with radical Muslim groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban. kanelli uae75, there are some people claiming to be devout Muslims, who want to take part in Jihad against Western governments, yet you find out that they have been drinking, taking drugs, living with their girlfriends, and visiting strip joints. So it seems that they are religious enough to commit murder in the name of Islam, but not quite religious enough to live by the basic teachings of the Quran. Chocoholic Because my friend in reports on several of the suspects, it's been said by friends and family that many converted to Islam, then became deeply religious and started acting oddly before all this kicked off. The sad fact of it is, that all those arrested are Muslim. The majority have been described as British born of Pakistani decent. Sadly you cannot get away from the fact that the majority of those committing terrorist attacks are Muslim fanatics, or innocent Muslims that have had their minds warped by people hell bent on destruction, but are too cowardly to do it themselves, so they recruit young people who're easily manipulated. Not one of those arrested was over 25! That is shocking! Many were actually teenagers. Sorry to say that it's these kind of people which give the majority of peaceful muslims a bad name, but also the problem comes from within as the Muslim community is not seen as actively trying to weed out those which would take part in such activities. freza :-)
I can just imagine someone stating that we should actively try to weed out the bad elements in the Protestant, Born-Again Christian, Christian Zionist and Jewish faiths, because of the mayhem and destruction that many of its members and supporters cause to other nations. Protestant Christians in the US are supporting the Israeli war of agression. The evangelist Pat Robertson went to Israel to show support for Israel's war and to pray with Ehud Olmert for an Israeli victory... PRAY... wow, hypocrisy at it's best! Would it be fair to say that there is an ingrained problem with some Protestant Christians and Jews? Most in the West focus on the twisted Islamic ideologies of a few - many have been conditioned to believe this by propaganda; Muslims are an easier, more convenient and more acceptable target of blame... nostradamus As for why is the media and the western government trying as hard as they can to scare people of anyone who is muslin!!! Could it be The Glorious Americans/Great Britain would like more support from their people in there new war aims ? uae75 Well, i will try not to be bias, in order not to sound like somone who will defend the guys who were trying to blow up the planes, cuz i am totally against their way just like what most arabs & muslims think. But at the sametime westerners should allow themselves to sit back and view things from a different point than what the western media is feeding their brains. Dueto the bad wrap muslims are getting from western media, everyone assumes we are alike, and instead of being seen as friendly unless proven otherwise, people would assume ur a terrorist at the beginning till the find out that whatever the media was telling them was false. In the USA for example, when the oklahoma building got blasted, the first assumption was "those damn muslims again"...but luckily they got disappointed when they found it was none other than few american racist radicals, but you wouldnt see the media making a big deal of their christian belief, although they were considered christian radicals, and you wont even see them mentioning that terrible incident anymore in the media. Or lets get another example, I never saw once a western media mentioning that these Israelies who everyone knows have bombed lots of women and children in the last few weeks, as jews. Although everyone knows that the Israeli soldiers are fundamentalist! Its these cases, where people should start thinking, and asking themselves, WHY? uae75
U went straight to the point.....;-) Chocoholic Everytime there is an atrocity, very few members of the Muslim community actually stand up and condem it. It's about time that Muslims, whether they are devoute or moderate stand up and say that these things are wrong and unacceptable. Is any wonder that 'big brother' is keeping an eye on what is being preached inside mosques. I for one think it's tragic that a whole religion is being torn down by the act of a few people who have no regard what-so-ever for anyone else. The actions are cowardly and nothing more. But until their own people object, protest and say what they're doing is wrong, they'll carry on doing it, and people who know little of Islam will just always think: Muslim = terrorist. Luckily most of us here know better than that. But it's a sad truth. We all stand up and criticise our Governments for what they're doing, no-one here agrees with what Israel is doing, so for the life of me I cannot understand why it's so hard for such a large community of people to stand up and say what's wrong is wrong. Chocoholic uae75, I get what you're saying and I totally agree with you. However look at it this way, these people are born in a country that has given them a good way of life I would imagine, and yet they want to commit mass murder against innocent civilians. If they didn't like it, well you know they can always go back to their origin countries. Plus these people could always go to the front lines and fight with their 'brothers' for the cause, but hey man that's way too hard. Much easier to target civilians in a cowardly manner. uae75
Well lets look at it from their point of view, I would suspect they are fed up with what they see in TV and the bombings of innocent people whether in IRAQ or Afghanistan, that they would want to repay the debt in the same way. Its a weird and unacceptable way, but they are playing the same game. Violence will only cause more violence, its a way of life!!! Chocoholic An eye for an eye never works, never has done. It's a terrible shame that some people can only see a way to win by fighting, not about sorting things out in a peaceful manner. uae75 Would have been nice if people can actually sort things out by just sitting around table and discussing it, but in reality, and in the span of the last 3000 years, i dont think that ever worked, except in very rare cases lol freza Many rational individual in the US and UK do criticize their government, but do they usually involve religion in the actions of the current very religious-leaning US administration? Do they bring up Judaism when it comes to criticizing Israel? It's kinda taboo to do this... But somehow it's not taboo to bring up Islam when it comes to criticizing terrorists who happen to be Muslim. This entire terrorist plot is being blown out of proportion. I think it's actually quite convenient that this plot was uncovered at this point, when the US/Israeli war of destruction is taking place. There are some folks who mistakenly believe that Hezbollah is a terrorist group and who don't have their facts straight about the region; these are the people most likely to support US/Israeli agressions of any kind. And as to Blair, the poor dude needs any kind of boost at this point. There are some minority voices (like the Neturei Karta group) in the Jewish community that do condemn Israeli and Zionist agression, unfortunately it's a very small minority. Can you name one powerful American Christian religious leader or group who condemns the US and Israel's wars of destruction? (Just out of the top of your head, can you name one???) arniegang
soooooooooo funny, way to go Chocs, nice one
:lol: :lol: :lol: arniegang Lionheart In the UK, being arrested is not the same as being charged. Therefore they are still considered "innocent" up to the time they are "charged". They also have to seek permission from the courts to keep them under arrest. The evidence is put before the judge for him or her to decide if the police have enough evidence to keep them under "arrest". Whilst this process continues they are considered innocent. This is why one has been released. The judge didnt consider the evidence strong enough to keep the suspect under arrest. Hope this clears up the technicalities. Chocoholic Freza, I'd hardly call a plot to blow 9 planes simultaniously out of the sky, killing around 3,000 people all at once being blown out of proportion. Please don't confuse the matters with other religions, it's hardly the same. You never get Christians blowing people up 'in the name of god', it just doesn't happen. We all know the issues between Catholics and Protestants, that's been waging for hundreds of years. It all comes back to my original opinions, that religion in any form is a bad thing. If there were no religion, but a way for 'humanity' to live, then you wouldn't have people using it as an excuse and one group thinking they're better than anyone else. Also with regard to the comment uae75 about people getting angry at what they see and hear in the news. We all get angry, but I think you have to be insane to want to strap on a bomb and go blow up people becaue of it. What does it achieve? Absolutely nothing! sharewadi
Until "convicted" no? In theory at least.

Carter.
No pun intended, right :shock: ? Chocoholic Unholy? Freza, get a grip! There's nothing Holy about blowing yourself up and others along with you! It's a cowards way out. Yeah you keep bashing the Bush/Blair thing and put your head in the sand with regard to the other issues. At least terrorist plots are getting stopped before people get killed! So you'd rather it actually happened?! My god, now you show your true colours! Chocoholic That's fine dude, but I obejct to some of the things Freaz is saying. It's off topic. Chocoholic You really do take it too far sometimes. Chocoholic We're not talking about Bush/Blair in this thread! We're talking about the plane plot! Stop messing up a perfectly good topic with your rants again. And what you said about the 'unholy' alliance, well Freza why don't you get it over with and brand us all infidels - as that's what you're insinuating! Just because people are not Muslim does not make them unholy. There are other people in the world who believe other things, that does not make them less. If you can stick to the topic and discuss it rationally, then don't bother. You've ruined the thread, now go way. uae75 Calm down people............this thread is not worth the fight! We are here to discuss in a civil manner :) arniegang Note to Freza Your posts have been deleted. I have previously asked nicely and you were given fair warning about your behaviour. arniegang
Thank you 75'
wise words - appreciated freza my bad, terrorism has NOTHING to do with politics at all.... what was I thinking??? :roll: My reference to "unholy alliance" had nothing to do with religion! I'm amazed at how some people choose to misinterpret things. My posts were not emotional, nor where they accusatory, they were merely stating something factual: political decisions cause terrorism (((hello))). Let's hand the mic to Chevaliers of Sion and other trolls whose "interesting" and racist posts will surely not get deleted while by the biased police here :-) (Who would ever think we're in an Arab country on this forum?!) uae75
Thanks arniegang, but i would have to admit, i was disappointd when u deleted freza comments. They weren't abusive, and I did think this is an open forum for discussion, and although not everyone might like her comments, its still her opinion, and you can either agree or disagree.....but hey, its just my opinion :) freza
uae75
Unfortunately that's how things are in this forum. Unpopular opinions are not welcomed. pro-West opinions are welcomed with open arms. stick around and you'll see what I mean... Chocoholic No Freza, that is not the case at all. You went off topic discussing something which already has several threads. If you cannot keep to topic then don't post anything. And I have to disagree and say you get overly emotional on some topics and your attitude becomes very aggressive. arniegang 75' I never said they were abusive. I had complaints via pm, that, in my opinion were justified. This maybe an "open forum" but at the end of the day Mods decide on whether the line has been crossed. When you start talking of bombing people, the line is crossed. I am not going to continually discuss this. People know the rules and if they wish to post something controversial or "borderline" they can post it to me via "pm" before submission. Chocoholic Back ON topic..... Several of those suspected of being involved with the plot have been found to have links to Al-Aqaeda at this time. xibit
i know u are sorry and made a mistake and didnt mean it like that
but that post of urs gives us all the wrong impression of u being a bay....aatch (which most probably u are'nt)
so please with all respect go and edit the post. freza
xibit
:lol: :thumbleft: freza
No I did not go off topic at all, I discussed the reason why this type of terrorist threats exists, I mean, everyone knows about it. I don't get emotional on these threads, I think it's funny that you're using this word (emotional) which I've used to accurately describe you.... :D uae75 was telling you to calm down, you being so jumpy and yeah, emotional...
But to be fair, like arnie is, I think you should apologize for stating that Pakistanis should be thrown out of the UK and that the Muslim communities are not doing enough to curb terrorism; that my dear, does sound racist and aggressive.
Back on topic.... So one of the alleged terror suspects was caught around the Afghanistan border... ok... :sleepy2:
p.s.
(just a note: I think you're mistakenly hitting the <--enter key one too many times when you post) arniegang
FYI
this post was not directed soley at Chocs. Freza get your facts correct, it included YOU as well
:wink: :wink: Chocoholic My dear Freza, if you bothered to go and read my following message I already did apologies as Xibit already pointed out, so no I don't have to thank you very much. And it's a fact that Muslim communities aren't doing enough to check what is being preached and to make sure that people aren't being taught wrong things. It's a subject that's been brought up time and time again. That's hardly racist, but a plain and simple fact. Sad but true. Good and proper Muslims should be ashamed at the actions of these people, but 9 times out of 10, they sit in silence and say nothing. arniegang being quiet and doing nothing is a fair summary of the whole Middle East. It all boils down to money at the end of the day, religioniand principles are secondary. freza arnie
Oh I know! Though I don't think I was out of tone at all, should I say a mea culpa just so that some people feel better? OK it was my fault too, there, happy?
Now since you're into small details let's not ignore these big ones:
" therefore they should be tried for treason, which still carries the death penalty. ... " calling for violence?
" more updates say all those arrested are of Pakistani decent - they should just throw them all bloody well out!!!! " oh-oh..this is a racist statement. I didn't hear the apology from Choco as she states, where is it? I think I missed it.
" Sorry to say that it's these kind of people which give the majority of peaceful muslims a bad name, but also the problem comes from within as the Muslim community is not seen as actively trying to weed out those which would take part in such activities. " inflammatory statement. Chocoholic It's in my reply to Kanelli Freza, 2 posts afterwards, having trouble with the back page clicker are we? And I'm sorry but it's true, if you commit a crime against your country of origin, then you're committing treason against that country and it's civilians. I make no apologies for the fact that harsher penalties for those convicted of terrist crimes should be used to send a warning message that it will not be tolerated. I was not, unlike you, calling for people to be killed on a mass scale, there is a difference. I can cover this from every angle Freza, so don't even bother going up for it! arniegang lets now give an alternative viewpoint

This is not a call for violence. Treason in the UK is a crime still punishable by death. It is a fact, not an opinion

I read this as Chocs meaning "those who are arrested" should be thrown out. I dont see any other meaning in this statement. Its no different to being convicted of a crime in the UAE and being deported.

This is not an inflamatory statement. It is an opinion, which the majority of people other than muslims agree with in the UK. It also happens to be true. uae75 I have been a member in this forum for 48 hours only, and I already feel bias opinions and racials tension flying all over this thread!!!! If I take the point of view of each of you three "arniegang", "chocoholic" & "freza"....then I am sure i will be convinced, and I probably fully support it. However, this means that this discussion can go on and on forever, and with no one able to convince the other party with his/her opinion, therefore I do suggest that we close this thread, cuz its taking us nowhere, and its turning a bit ugly. :) Chocoholic hey uae75, for the record I would never enforce an opinion on anyone. I mearly give my opinion and state fact, that is pretty much it. However what I do get annoyed with, it people twisting things around. It's not nasty while everyone is respectful of others opinions. Take yours for example, your very thought provoking and put your opinions across well and it's a pleasure to read your posts. kanelli Well, I wish I could have seen Freza's posts that got deleted. From my perspective it is still perfectly on topic to discuss why some people want to commit suicide attacks on innocent civilians. This thread is about planned terrorist attacks is it not? Of course, the wording is essential. Freza makes a fair point about some of the troll's posts still being allowed on this forum while other people's posts are not. With respect, let's try to be a little more objective with the moderating. I do have to say - we have been around most of these points before in previous threads. There are lots of other disenfranchised groups in this world, but you don't see them strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up innocent civilians. Systematic suicide bombing and mass terrorism on the part of radical Muslims is not admirable and just make people think less of all Muslims. Can you blame them? Do you think it makes some Londoners feel comfortable to sit on the metro next to an Arab-looking person with a backpack? Their brains may say, "Don't be racist or stereotypical. This guy is harmless.", but in reality that person could have a bomb. The guy may be harmless, but the fact remains that other Arab or Arab-looking Muslims have broken the trust of the public and this makes life more difficult for moderate Muslims who are innocent and non-violent. I still think that Muslims are not doing enough. They don't have a big enough political lobby, don't band together because of sectarian/political boundaries, and they don't do enough to reach out to the public or try to counter the negative portrayals that Muslims get in some media coverage. Most of all, the moderate Muslims are not doing an effective job of identifying and flushing out the radical people who are tainting the minds of young Muslim men and brainwashing them into becoming terrorists. All of these things you can't blame on Western governments. It is such a cop-out to have many Arabs and Muslims blaming the West for all their troubles. They need to outsmart and outplay any Western government that is meddling. Why not use economic power over them! My guess is that things are going to fester until there is an all-out war. uae75
Thanks my dear, and although I love debates, specially political ones, but one thing I hate, is when people start to get too emotional with their opinions, its in that specific moment, a perosn should know when to quit, cuz an emotional person always find it difficult to comprehend other people's opinions. :) Chocoholic Good post K. I was actually watching an intersting programme on racial profiling earlier, and it's sad that it gets to that sometimes. BUt even if someone looks arab, they might not be muslim. What does a muslim look like? As I've said before it's just really really sad that this is the world we're living in today and that whole groups of people are being tarnished by the actions of a few. freza oh arnie, you find excuses for these statements but you find excuses against my statements and delete them, nice... great example of a fair moderator. btw, choco's statement on pakistanis was a GLARINGLY racist statement and she tried to "fix" only because someone pointed out her... blunder. Her outburst and initial statement clearly speaks for itself.
choco, I have never called for the "mass murder" of any people. I think I explained this to you on that other thread, with evidence and rebuttal...you forgot?
I get it people, it's best for some of us not to post.... we get it, well, I get it.
I think this forum should come with a this disclaimer: "Only pro-US/UK/Israel views allowed; moderate views tolerated; opposing views will be censored or deleted". Might as well....
Don't bother replying arnie, you have more important things to do on this forum... kanelli Freza, it shouldn't be that way. Not everyone here wants to censor people who don't agree with their opinions. uae75
Ur right, mods decide whether lines have been crossed or not, but it also means they have to be objective,and not easily influenced by few complains via pm. uae75
Although I wont agree with some of what you said, but I fully concur your last paragraph. arniegang
Playing devils advocate is not an easy job in here. I have explained elsewhere, it is not easy wearing 2 hats, ie a mod hat and a personal hat. I try not to involve myself in discussion's that are of a sensitive nature because of my position.
Its easy to look from the outside in, and talk of objectivity. It is like my example above re freza's post and how she as an individual interptreted Chocs words. To remain truely objective is a skill, the vast majority of us do not possess.
At the end of the day you can only please some of the people, some of the time and certainly not all the people all of the time.
Also, if you read within other thread, in particular Lebanon, i have asked many times very politely for people to be aware of the sensitive nature of the subject. I can only repeat myself so many times. It seems my polite requests were ignored on many occasions and the thread had to be locked twice. I did not take sides and i mentioned NO names or insinuated anyone in particular. My posts were a warning and a request to ALL.
I failed to see which part of my requests and advise, people didnt or do not understand.
Hope this clarifies my position UAE75 and you and others respect my perspective. Concord I have a thought/suggestion. What if chocs, shafique, kannelli and sharewadi did not post on this forum for a week! I mean voluntarily of course. It would be interisting to read the "wisdom" and discussions by the likes of LH, Freza, et. al. Let them respond to Nostradamus, Serpent and Mr. & Mrs. Perhaps then they will appreciate or recognize true discussions - unlikely but... It would be I hoot, I beleive. Chocoholic Concord, I think it would be carnage! Interesting suggestion however. shafique I agree Chocs - but it would be an interesting experiment.. I suspect it would descend into a flame war, but then again, perhaps not?? Concord I bet they will have nothing to say to each other! Specailly since nostradamus, serpent and Mr. & Mrs. ---- are just clowns who would not be able to keep the thread going. Just watch!!!! le-serpent-rouge diverted to 8) le-serpent-rouge :lol: kanelli le-serpent-rouge - maybe you could slither back under a rock. You don't make any sense! sharewadi
They are trolls. Every time you respond (or even read their post), they have achieved their objective. Chocoholic THe red snake needs to be stepped on! kanelli Well, was reading the paper today and one line reads, "Airlines including British Airways are estimated to have suffered losses as high as $95 million a day." Some people believe that the whole air terror plot is a conspiracy by the US and UK governments, but why would they make up such a conspiracy if it will cost so much money and incovenience to an industry as important as the airline industry? It is US and UK airlines, but also many other airlines that are affected. shafique Well, a cost of $95m may seem like a lot and certainly there has been a lot of disruption. However compare that cost with the cost of the Iraq mis-adventure (and not to mention how much the bombing of Lebanon must have cost) and the consipiracy theorists would argue that this $100m would be considered peanuts for the administrations that want us to believe their is a bigger threat than there really is, which will enable more draconian laws, control and ultimately expenditure on arms and intelligence (which in a perverted way they see as a way to bolster the economy). Is $95m really too high a price to pay? That said, I am not one of those who are saying it IS a consipiracy and there is no plot.. but am saying that we should not jump to conclusions either way yet. One of the suspects has already been released without charge and the others are still being questioned. Some of the facts that have filtered out so far are incongurous with the idea of suicide bombers - eg. guns and £19,000 in cash are reportedly found in one of the houses - but what would ideological suicide bombers using liquid explosives need guns for? Aren't these more likely to be mere criminals - guns and loads of money = obvious conclusion criminals (and I know the area of East London the house is in - no shortage of Asian gangs there!) Anyway - I am inclined to believe there is not a little bit of hype and spin going on at the moment. How much, remains to be seen - and I will happily admit I'm wrong if evidence of a real plot is revealed. Let's wait and see. Cheers, Shafique Chocoholic I also read an interesting article today on the same subject which raises some good points against the conspiracy spinners. The sheer logistcal organisation to 'pull the wool over peoples eyes' would be ridiculous. First you'd have to find a bunch of people willing to be arrested and charged with such atrocities - would a group of people be willing to have their lvies destroyed in such a way? Co-ordination between UK, US and Pakistani authorities. Tying up MI5, police, fire resources. Cancelling and diverting flights from countries all across the globe, leading to financial loss and inconvenience. Sorry but there's just too much there for it to all be a conspiracy, the work is not worth it. sniper420
well pakistan only got few suspects the rest was done by MI5. Now if i was one of the suspects..... and thye got my internet and pne conversation.....in the court i would say "I was just trying ti c if the british intelligence was effective and capable enuf to catch terrorists". They didnt find any trace of bombs in my house . and the bombs were supposed to be made from household stuffs. kanelli That's $95 million per day, not just $95 million. In the end it will be billions. I agree with Chocs, it seems too elaborate for US and UK governments to come with such a conspiracy. I'm also with Shaf though - let's see what the evidence brings. shafique Chocs/Kanelli - the conspiracy may be to over-blow, hype, exagerate the threat. There is already much evidence that the threat from Al Qaeda has been over-hyped. Look at the Madrid bombings for example - it took a full investigation before it finally came out that there was no Al Qaeda link after all. Similarly the Ricin poison arrests - massive media coverage, turns out to be much less in reality. It's been pointed out many times before, but even with 9/11 and subsequent terrorist attacks, in the West you're many, many, many more times likely to be injured or killed in a 'normal' accident than be a victim of a terrorist act. I've lived through IRA bombings of London and was within earshot of a big explosion in Docklands which killed people. I was on the tube on 7/7. The risks were greater under the IRA threat than the current threat from the Al Qaeda wannabes - for a start there are far more Irish Catholics in the UK than there are asian muslims, and I would argue that there were far more IRA sympathisers than there are suicide bomber approvers from within the Muslim community (I speak from an insider's point of view on the latter). Remember that the IRA bombed shoppers in Omagh, destroyed the main shopping district of Manchester (arguably, doing Manchester a favour), blew up hotels full of politicians etc. Yet we did not have the kind of reactions we are facing in the UK today. In short, the risks have been demonstrably over-hyped in relation to the actual risks. This is the background to my skepticism of the arrests and plots until the evidence comes out. (Contrast this with my immediate acceptance that Al Qaeda were behind the Madrid bombings.. ) cheers, Shafique kanelli That's true Shaf, there is certainly too much hype about terrorism and Al Qaeda in particular when in reality the risks are quite low. Even my husband could have been killed or badly injured when a mentally unstable teenager set off a bomb in our local shopping mall in Finland. If it weren't for two phone calls that delayed his entering the mall he would have been eating right near where the bomb went off. All it takes is one psycho to do something drastic. You can't always control what happens in life. However, the fact remains that a group of radical Islamists killed hundreds of people in the US, Madrid, and the UK. I keep hearing people criticising the US government for doing nothing about Al Qaeda when they bombed the US embassies in Africa. Then there are people who think the 9/11 attacks were also a conspiracy and that it was the US government that carried those out and then blamed Al Qaeda. I'm sure there are people who think that the Madrid and London attacks were also a conspiracy. (Actually, the Madrid bombings were originally pinned on the Basques if you remember. They didn't think it was Al Qaeda right from the start.) The governments may not be 100% responsible for hyping things up - it is the news media and everyday citizens that thrive off of sensational stories. After actual attacks or arrests for alleged terror plots, people get nervous and afraid. They realise that they can be a target at any time and there are small groups of people out there who want to maim and kill in the name of revenge. In light of world politics and recent trends, it would be foolish to think that there are not disgruntled groups of radicals that do want to attack innocent people to get their points across. shafique
Kanelli - the Madrid bombings weren't related to the US or UK ones - that's one example of hyping the threat, by linking disparate terrorist attacks to give the illusion that Al Qaeda is more powerful than it actually is.
Yes, Madrid was initially blamed on ETA by the Government - but that blame lasted about 24hrs (perhaps less) before being retracted. The majority of commentators and people in Spain did not believe in the ETA theory from outset and Al Qaeda was blamed up until the report was finally concluded - I think it was a year later?
Al Qaeda were responsible for the African consulate bombings, attacks on the WTC (9/11 and the previous one) - but pretty few others.
Most of the post-9/11 attacks or attempted attacks have been by wannabes or totally separate organisations (eg. Bali bombings, Turkey bombings etc). The US and UK administrations quickly make the link between these and Al Qaeda to justify the 'war on terror'.
The funniest one was to try and link Iraq to Al Qaeda when Bin Laden was a great outspoken critic of Saddam (and vice versa). The frightening thing is that even today many Americans (according to many polls), think that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (sorry Dubai Girl)!
The irony is that Al Qaeda is definitely now in Iraq, whereas it was not before (the stories of training camps in the north has long been discredited).
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli Sorry, Shaf, I didn't say that the attacks were linked or that they were all Al Qaeda. I said that Islamic militants carried out the attacks - that is what they all had in common. I think that Al Qaeda is not able to function well anymore after troops went into Afghanistan and Al Qaeda leaders have been tracked down and arrested or killed. Perhaps the planning and contacts between cells has been broken because of this. In any case, there are other smaller terrorist groups springing up to plan attacks, as we could see with Bali, London, and Madrid. I also read that many Americans still think that Al Qaeda and Saddam were linked - and that Iraq was involved in 9/11. After all this time and all the evidence to the contrary the message isn't getting through to much of the American public. Very sad. shafique Thanks for clarifying that you didn't think Al Qaeda were involved in Madrid.
I was just reading Wikipedia about 9/11 and Al Qaeda, here's an interesting snippet from the Al Qaeda entry
Is al-Qaeda a global network or a small organization?
Al-Qaeda has no clear structure, and this permits debate as to how many members make up the organization, whether it is millions scattered across the globe, or whether it is even zero. According to the controversial BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares, al-Qaeda is so weakly linked together that it is hard to say it exists apart from Osama bin Laden and a small clique of close associates. The lack of any significant numbers of convicted al-Qaeda members despite a large number of arrests on terrorism charges is cited by the documentary as a reason to doubt whether a widespread entity that meets the description of al-Qaeda exists at all. The extent and nature of al-Qaeda remains a topic of dispute.
Cheers,
Shafique kanelli And so it should be disputed. As far as I know, only the embassy bombings and 9/11 were Al Qaeda - nothing since 2001... Hardly a large sinister group are they. :D



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