60 percent of women harassed on daily basis

shafique Cool - so we agree with the authors of the report that following Islamic teachings would resolve the issue. I got married at 25 and my wife was 22 at the time. I think that once one is mature enough to enter into a marriage and have some financial security, then this is the age for marriage. In the past, puberty and being old enough to enter into a trade or farming meant that marriage didn't need to be delayed beyond the teen years - this was the case in Europe as well, with women/girls in early teens getting married (just look up the ages of some of the royal brides of England, for example). Nowadays, education takes priority and therefore marriage should be deferred until at least formal education is finished. There are many rural communities where marriages take place earlier - eg the Amish in the USA, aboriginal communities around the world and in some Muslim rural communities as well. However, s.e.xual activity in the 'developed' world is taking place much earlier it seems, with the numbers of pre-teen and early teen mothers increasing each year - and surveys showing increasing se.x.ual activities of young teenagers (primarily outside marriage). The evidence is that this is not strengthening society, but rather causing troubles now and storing up greater issues later. A feral underclass has developed in Britain, for example - where daughters of single teenage mums are increasingly becoming single teenage mums. So, yes - chastity before marriage and marriage in one's 20s are indeed solutions for a happier society, and yes this is in contrast to your solution that dating and fornication should be allowed. Cheers, Shafique

event horizon

I guess you do agree with the article that said that the problem is with the men, not with the religion they aren't following.

Agreed. If more Egyptian women wore bumblebee suits, Egyptian men wouldn't harass them. The answer is Islam.
Although I see you still have not answered my last question. How old do you think people should start to get married? 14? 15? Or should they become high school juniors first? event horizon Sorry for the long, shafique style copy-paste. Living by seventh century social norms has a pretty interesting effect on modern society - where the genders are becoming less segregated and not all women wear bumble bee suits.
I also think that young, unmarried men who are culturally (and legally?) forbidden to date will of course play a big factor into all of this. People, even in more backwards/conservative nations such as Egypt, are not marrying at young ages (which was the norm when the Koran was written) and, as a result, you have hordes of young men walking through the streets of Cairo harassing women.
To be fair though, this probably cannot be blamed entirely on young, unmarried men. 2/3 thirds of Egyptian men admit to harassing women on the streets and I suspect many of these men are indeed married. But, who can really blame Egyptian men for viewing women as commodities? I mean, this is the same society that compares unveiled women to unwrapped pieces of candy and draws analogies of women to meat.
What Egyptian society needs, therefore, is complete gender segregation and for women to wear bumblebee suits. No other alternative is possible, such as men getting 'used' to the idea of women existing in society (other than their wife or a related female - but not a first cousin because it is permissible to marry first cousins in the Arab world). So, even in the off chance that unrelated men and women are in the same room together, the men will probably think the room has a bee infestation (killer bees are from Africa, right?) and leave.

CAIRO: Being an Egyptian woman is to accept sexual harassment as daily routine, according to a recent report from the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR). The study outlines, 60 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women are harassed on a daily basis.
This is not a new problem. In fact, the problem has been simmering silently since the fall of 2006, when dozens of men and boys attacked and assaulted women outside a downtown a Cairo cinema. In a mob style attack, the perpetrators attempted to grope and tear at any passing woman’s clothes in the October attack.
Street harassment globally includes a wide range of verbal and nonverbal acts, including whistles, jeers, winks, grabs, pinches, public displays and often the use of foul and offensive language. Extreme cases can accelerate into physical attacks where clothing is ripped and a woman is bruised, cut or injured.
No woman is left unharmed by acts of street harassment. Exposure to such acts of public humiliation that result in verbal or physical assault are often ignored by the police. In Cairo this is due to the lack of protective enforcement of Egyptian laws.
Although articles 268 and 306 of the Egyptian Penal Code touch on issues rising out of extreme sexual harassment on the streets of Cairo, the specific legal wording to aid in protecting women exists nowhere in the code. This makes prosecution very difficult and extremely rare.
“There is no law criminalizing sexual harassment in Egypt,” says New York based and award-winning Washington Post columnist, Mona Eltahawy. A native of Egypt, international speaker on Arab and Muslim issues and former reporter for Reuters news in Cairo and Jerusalem, Eltahawy has been vigilant in her stand on human rights and women’s rights.
“Police often refuse to report women’s complaints,” added Eltahawy. “And when it is the police themselves who are harassing women, then clearly women’s safety is far from a priority in Egypt.”
The 1993 Harvard Law Review report, “Street Harassment and the Informal Ghettoization of Women,” by Cynthia Grant Bowman, Cornell Law School professor and Gender Studies professor from Northwestern University, outlines the need for specific criminal and civil laws to protect women in public. Street harassment globally has one insidious and common denominator, the use of words that include extreme sexual innuendo and profanity.
“Fighting words statutes seem to offer an appropriate remedy for many kinds of street harassment,” says Professor Bowman in her report. “They encompass personal, face-to-face insults that cannot possibly be described as political discourse; they apply to ‘threatening, profane or obscene revilings’; and they turn upon the reaction of the hearer rather than upon the intent of the speaker or harasser.”
Although the ACLU – American Civil Liberties Union has come out strongly in opposition defending the use of ‘fighting words’ as free speech under United States law code, it does lean in the favor in the prosecution of “acts of violence, harassment or intimidation and invasions of privacy.”
“The ACLU recognizes that the mere presence of speech as one element in an act of violence, harassment, intimidation or privacy invasion doesn’t immunize that act from punishment,” said the organization in a 1994 “Hate Speech on Campus” report.
On the streets of Cairo in 2006, eyewitnesses and citizen reporters’ pictures were clear proof that terror against women had taken place, despite denials by police and the Ministry of Interior. Some of the photos revealed police watching from a distance in amusement and indifference to the women’s predicament.
The event proved to be the breaking point for women, and some men, in removing their heads from the sand. It was the first time women had spoken out about the issue, taking to the streets in demonstrations against this enduring social problem.
“Not only do we not have the space and the freedom to do it (demonstrate) but also some of us women got harassed by police officers,” says Mona, a 25-year-old Egyptian girl who attended her first demonstration following the 2006 attacks.
“I went with my sister and her friends and I saw one of her friends screaming at a couple of soldiers for harassing her,” Mona added. “The irony was unbelievable.”
Two years on from those horrific events in downtown Cairo, and despite the few instances of activism that brought false hope for change, women complain about the same issues, according to the ECWR study. The statistics reveal a difficult reality; 60 percent of women answered that they are harassed every day. This includes both verbal and physical abuse.
Making matters complicated, approximately 70 percent of the men surveyed admitted to participating in harassing women, not taking matters seriously and even blaming women.
Mohsen Reda, an Egyptian Member of Parliament, said women should be dressed more modestly as “a lot of our youth can’t afford marriage so it is only normal for some harassment to take place.”
Are women in Egypt not dressed appropriately? “That is funny,” began Dola, a 55-year-old mother of two young women when asked about modesty in Egypt’s busy streets. “Of course he is talking about another nation. If you walk down the street you will see the truth: women are modest. Sure, you may see a small percentage of young college girls who like to dress in fashion, but that is it,” she added.
“Women with headscarves are harassed all the time, too,” the mother argued.
“At 15, I was groped as I was performing the rites of the hajj pilgrimage at Mecca, the holiest site for Muslims. Every part of my body was covered except for my face and hands. I’d never been groped before and burst into tears, but I was too ashamed to explain to my family what had happened,” said journalist Mona Eltahawy in a July 27, 2008 article for the Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies.
Foreign women in Cairo, according to the ECWR study, have an even more difficult situation. 98 percent of foreigners are harassed, and in some reported instances, more violently than locals.
Asma, a 29-year-old masters student retells the story of an Italian friend. “She was walking in downtown in the afternoon wearing cotton sporty pants and a t-shirt when a man came from behind and set part of her bottom on fire with a lighter and sprinted off,” the Egyptian student says of her friend. The Italian woman had third degree burns and “a wish to not come back here (to Egypt) again.”
The ECWR warned that harassing foreign women would lead to the loss of millions of pounds. A number of foreigners said they would never return to Egypt. 14 percent of all foreign women said they would either never return to Egypt or tell their friends not to visit, which could put a damper on the country’s number one source of income: tourism.
Despite the report and documented harassment, little has been done to prevent the situation from worsening.
Nehad Abu Komsan, the chairwoman of the ECWR, is optimistic on the future. She believes more women are willing to speak out about their experiences.
“The problem is that women did not have the ability to talk,” she begins, “and they feel the shame and were afraid to talk, but now they are more free to talk and they know that they are not alone and this is not their fault.”
Komsan argues that this has helped Egyptian society understand what is going on and will help to solve this social issue. An important aspect of her work is helping to develop society as a whole, not only within the activist community.
“It is not important to be a woman figure or a women defender. Women are an essential part of society, so as long as they are active in different fields they will defend their rights and other people’s rights,” she adds.
She pointed to recently appointed Islamic notary, known as a ‘maazun’ in Arabic, Amal Soliman. The lawyer is the first female maazun in the Islamic world’s history, and the 32-year-old mother does not want to be seen as an activist despite the attention her new job has brought.
“Sure, this was expected, although I didn’t think it would take this long,” said Soliman, who holds a master’s degree in law from Zagazig University. The Ministry of Justice has yet to give her the green light to begin work after months of waiting.
Like many obstacles in Egypt, men are guarding the entrance to the male dominated field, but Soliman expects to begin work before the year’s end.
She also has numerous law and criminal justice diplomas, which gave her the credentials to beat out 10 male candidates for the vacancy in her hometown of Qanayit just north of Cairo.
Amal Soliman didn’t believe gender would be a factor in the position when she applied, although she has long since gotten over that shock.
“I never thought that my gender would be a big deal, at least not as big of a deal it has become,” she added.

/ event horizon

CAIRO (Reuters) - Nearly two-thirds of Egyptian men admit to having sexually harassed women in the most populous Arab country, and a majority say women themselves are to blame for their maltreatment, a survey showed Thursday.
The forms of harassment reported by Egyptian men, whose country attracts millions of foreign tourists each year, include touching or ogling women, shouting sexually explicit remarks, and exposing their genitals to women. "Sexual harassment has become an overwhelming and very real problem experienced by all women in Egyptian society, often on a daily basis," said the report by the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights.
Egyptian women and female visitors frequently complain of persistent sexual harassment on Egyptian streets, despite the socially conservative nature of this traditional Muslim society.
The behavior could have repercussions on Egypt's tourism industry, a major foreign income earner, with 98 percent of foreign women saying they had experienced harassment in the country, the survey said.
The survey of more than 2,000 Egyptian men and women and 109 foreign women said the vast majority of Egyptians believed that sexual harassment in Egypt was on the rise, citing a worsening economic situation and a lack of awareness or religious values.
It said 62 percent of Egyptian men reported perpetrating harassment, while 83 percent of Egyptian women reported having been sexually harassed. Nearly half of women said the abuse occurred daily.
Only 2.4 percent of Egyptian women reported it to the police, with most saying they did not believe anyone would help. Some feared reporting harassment would hurt their reputations.
"The vast majority of women did nothing when confronted with sexual harassment," the survey said, adding that most Egyptian women believed the victim should "remain silent."
Some 53 percent of men blamed women for bringing on sexual harassment, saying they enjoyed it or were dressed in a way deemed indecent. Some women agreed.
"Out of Egyptian women and men interviewed, most believe that women who wear tight clothes deserve to be harassed," the survey said. It added most agreed women should be home by 8 p.m.
The survey said most of the Egyptian women who told of being harassed said they were dressed conservatively, with the majority wearing the Islamic headscarf. The harassment took place on the streets or on public transport, as well as in tourist destinations and foreign educational institutions.

The answer is more bumble bee suits, gender segregation, and seventh century cultural norms. shafique This has been posted about before (at least twice, IIRC) The BBC has covered this issue - and one of the contributing factors is the increasing costs of getting married and the poor economic situation there for many men - meaning men are typically having to wait into their 30s before getting married. It is not only women who are getting harrassed, but men also!! :shock: It's a particular issue with Egypt, and urban Egypt at that - and perversely it is an issue that Islamic principles can help with. The 'sunnah' of the Prophet was not to have extravagant weddings, some companions only gave dates as a their 'dower' (Mahr) and the weddings were quite simple. The Hadith say that Muslims should get married (the system of celibacy is seen as a perversion) and should be chaste before marriage and traditionally, marriage should not be unduly deferred. Sorry eh - I know you were looking for an anti-Muslim angle. Cheers, Shafique shafique The survey does, interestingly, lay the blame on the economic situation and a lack of awareness of religious values:

The survey of more than 2,000 Egyptian men and women and 109 foreign women said the vast majority of Egyptians believed that sexual harassment in Egypt was on the rise, citing a worsening economic situation and a lack of awareness of religious values .

So, eh's sarcasm at the end of his post is actually not far wrong - adhering to Islamic values, according to the ladies who conducted the survey, would help this situation.
Or perhaps eh thinks he knows better? ;)
Edit - eh's opening lines exposes his lack of comprehension once again - he seems to believe that the harrassment was a result of Islamic values, rather than what the survey concludes! But, if we are kind, perhaps eh didn't actually read these posts in full (that is another unfortunate trait we've seen time and again)
Cheers,
Shafique event horizon

So, eh's sarcasm at the end of his post is actually not far wrong - adhering to Islamic values, according to the ladies who conducted the survey, would help this situation.

What about bumblebee suits and gender segregation? That would help too, I would imagine.

and perversely it is an issue that Islamic principles can help with.

Uh huh. And you think most people will still get married at around 17 which was normal ( I would imagine ) at the time of Muhammad?
Perhaps that's still possible in modern society if married women drop out of school and start producing babies. Who knows? I'm not sure how exactly seventeen year old boys will support their wife and children. I doubt being a high school or college student pays very much any more.

he seems to believe that the harassment was a result of Islamic values

I see a difference between values and customs. Prohibiting dating and having a society where men do not understand how to interact with women on the streets is a result of conservative customs that prohibit gender mixing and promote chastity until marriage. Obviously, these customs are no longer applicable in modern, urban society and Egypt, an extremely conservative Muslim country, is proof of that. shafique Hey, I really can't continue to help you out by reading what you post in full and then explaining it to you. There is a limit to my charity, after all! I've found that Egypt has provided a fair share of comedic value to these forums over the years - from breast feeding fatwas to apparitions of the virgin Mary. The survey in question is quite specific and the conclusions of the authors is there to read - they do say the problem would be solved if the men involved were better Muslims, which is an obvious point. The groping is taking place despite religion, not because of it. There are shocking stats from Europe which say that one in five women face violence at the hands of men - again, a topic which has been discussed and is more about the breakdown of social mores rather than anything to do with religion or culture (although alcohol consumption is a major factor there as well). It is interesting that your last paragraph implies that there would be less groping if there was more fornication. ;) I understand your argument though - if dating and pre-marital sex were allowed, then perhaps the men would not feel the need to grope women. Sure - I guess that may be the case. I'm not sure that the cure is better than the disease - especially when compared to the alternative which is to remain chaste and faithful. Do you really think men can't control themselves and must either date/fornicate or grope? Cheers, Shafique event horizon

Do you really think men can't control themselves and must either date/fornicate or grope?

Was this a joke question?
No, of course I don't think men can control themselves. That's why women need to wear bumblebee suits and men and women should be segregated in society. You know, just as Islam teaches. shafique Thanks for clarifying - I thought you were suggesting that the sexual harrassment would be reduced if only more women would sleep with men before marriage, and date more freely. I guess you do agree with the article that said that the problem is with the men, not with the religion they aren't following. Cheers, Shafique

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60 percent of women harassed on daily basis – Cairo