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200 lashes to Saudi Rape Victim


Concord :roll: :roll: :roll:
^ian^ It should be clear though that the punishment is not for 'being raped' but for breaking the segregation laws of meeting in a car with an unrelated male. Harsh indeed, but it's a very black and white application of the law. It is akin to me perhaps driving from a petrol station without paying and then immediately being crashed into by a reckless driver. Being a victim of one crime does not exonerate me from another. Having said that, I find some of the laws of segregation impractical, but she was well aware what she was doing before the rape was a crime. There is no indication as to whether her actions incited the violence against here though. What is shocking most is that she was raped. burton Horrendous. Poor, poor girl.. Before anyone points out the obvious, I am aware that the sentences for the rapists have been extended. BUT it is still rather telling to consider the original sentences - in the case of at least one offender, 10 months. She now gets six months in jail (not to mention the lashes) for meeting an unrelated male. Six months, ten months (at one point) - we're almost in the same ball-park. And yet the crimes couldn't be more different. I wonder if the rapists get lashes too... pinoy1 "The judges more than doubled the punishment for the victim because of "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media.."" I guess this is also a part of their law? :? Concord
True, but if you think about it, the law is intended to "punish" someone in this case the girl for her action (meeting an unrelated male). However, she was more than punished by being raped by 7 men. Not that everyone she meets would rape her but she sure has already paid the price for her actions.
Law and Justice should be applied with some common-sense thrown in just for the hell of it...
What are the 200 lashes going to do other than inflict more punishment... ^ian^
I do not disagree with you for one second... she has been through hell, and the 200 lashes won't do anything... but perhaps make her life even more miserable.
As I said, it's a very black and white application... very harsh.
Plus I will add common sense doesn't seem to have much place in certain parts of Saudi. fayz but it isn't the guy in the car that she met that raped her, 7 others raped the 2 of them, guy and girl, at least that is how i read the article.

so for the guys that did this, maybe they knew the pair or maybe not, maybe they thought the two were married or brother and sister, I'm not sure the fact that the girl was with an unelated male makes a diff, either way the guys should have been hung. gtmash I am glad no one here pointed a finger at Islam. The Saudi lawmakers love to pass off their tribal nonsense as a part of Islam. debian Sharia law aims to prevent crime and root causes as well, it's not only about punishing the victim it's about preventing what may later lead to or encourage a crime. Some actions are forbidden not because they are crimes in their nature but because they might lead to a crime so Islam restricts as much as possible such situations, that's the point of preventing free mixing between both genders and obligating the veil We don't know exactly all the details of this incident or how she got in this situation but if it's not mentioned that she was abducted for example then she might have did encourage them even indirectly. Of course the media exploits such incidents against islam and sharia law (Saudia Arabia punishes rape victim) Even though what she's been through that doesn't exempt her from the punishment (if she was guilty), she made a mistake and caused 7 others to commit a capital sin. what will the lashes do ? they will certainly deter her and other people from doing the same thing again ^ian^
This is the contentious bit. Nobody 'causes' themselves to have a crime of this nature perpetrated against them.
7 guys weren't just sitting around, saw her and go, 'oh crap, dude, we need to rape this women because of what she has done.'

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Concord
Surely you are joking.
I've heard of "the devil made me do it". But this one takes the cake. burton
See gt, I know what you mean. Speaking as a muslim, I feel the same way.
But here's the catch. Someone like debian comes along and makes a statement like
and

and what happens? Well, we know what happens - the rest of the world heaves a collective sigh and says 'sorry, the progressive face of Islam...you were saying?'' ^ian^ Well, last time I checked, being raped wasn't just an Islamic problem, I think it's a 'retard' problem... and the world is full of them from all walks and ilks. St.Lucifer Pathetic application of law. Such foolish things can be conceived only by the men who live in the dark ages of Evil. I just cant get the logic behind some idiot saying I've all the right to punish someone coz it's the "almighty God Who loves everyone"' s wish even if the crime doesnt seem like a crime to common man. Murder of humanity, clearly barbaric. DaWarrior BBC News version: rudeboy hmmmm rape is a serious issue. but guys do remember this in the middle east these are the laws. If you are caught doing something with someone then you are in trouble. the girl met the guy no1 told her to meet him but she met him and the rest we dont know. who knows she did have sex with him who knows she didnt have it and was actually raped. who knows the girl is porbably doing this so she can get compensated or she was actually raped. I am pretty sure that there are loads of girls in the middle east especially in UAE who do not come forward and report it because they are afraid of the table turning on to them and them being sentenced or deported. And this is not just UAE or the middle east it happens EVERYWHERE. in uk some women do not come forward because they dont want to share their ordeal with the public in a court room. Medvezhonok What is it they say??? "She was asking for it." Yeah, that's it. How dare she get in a car with an unrelated male. Such nerve in these young people. rudeboy thats just it. she got into a car. I am sure he must have been her bf or a close friend or whatever. what happened next we dont know. who knows it could have been a real rape or who knows she willing wanted to do it. We have laws here. The girl must have known that just to meet a guy is braking a law in Saudi. "Women are subject to numerous restrictions in Saudi Arabia" - quote from CNN. I think CNN has double standards here. They just want to address the problems women are facing in Saudi. Lol y does the western media do that? There are so many women being raped in Africa by militia who usa government supports with guns and funds. How come I dont see that in CNN??? there are women raped in USA ever minute lol i dont see that story hiting the headlines. Cnn should mind their own business. burton
So that's why I don't understand your point. What you wrote above is precisely why the law should protect the victim!
If the law comes down in full force on the perpetrator AND at the same time assures the woman that she is innocent (and doesn't add further punishment like lashing) - then more women who have been raped will come forward!
I do not buy into this 'this is the law, you know the law' routine. This is something which doesn't help anybody. It is also a common arguement applied to expats, who are percieved to be unwilling to 'accept' a country's culture.
But this is ridiculous. There are millions of people who are nationals of {insert country} who want change themselves. Young professional women in Saudi Arabia want to be able to drive. They want to be able to meet a distant cousin without being subject to lashing. For 'outsiders' to say 'oh well, that's the law, she knew what she was doing' is a form of armchair mentality, not to mention unbelievably unsympathetic!
Medvezhonok Believe it or not when 7 men gang-rape a woman it leaves evidence behind, so drop the inane assumption that it was consensual lest you want to dig a bigger hole for yourself.
And the article isn't debating whether or not she broke the "law", it is showing how the law is retarded. rudeboy
the law is there to protect women. the law encourages women not to go and meet guys and have sex and get pregnant or whatever. Thats y the laws are RETARTED. the laws are there to protect women. The law is there to protect victims but HOW do we know they are VICTIMS OR NOT.
How do we know that they didnt actually go and meet these guys and then wanted to have it off with them? do you know? does the CNN know?
The judge is punishing them because they went to meet these guys. Tell me another thing y is Saudi being focused here? y not the women in africa who get raped? y isnt CNN reporting about them? Medvezhonok
Lets protect them by lashing them 200 times if they misbehave, gotcha.

I don't even know how to begin answering your question, this theory takes the cake; it's so stupid, it's almost on a separate plane of existence. I'm having a hard time determining whether you're joking or not, but for the sake of this argument I'm going to assume the latter.

Because after they get raped they don't get whipped 200 times, even after committing such horrendous acts as being in a car with a guy. rudeboy
lol ok i m joking wots so ever just answer this. How do you know they were raped? Medvezhonok
* A nurse explains the hospital's HIV testing procedure and why HIV testing is beneficial. The victim then decides whether or not to permit HIV testing. In many states, there is no charge to the victim for these services.
* Routine blood collection is done (to check for pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases).
* The nurse documents any evidence of torn clothing or external injuries and takes photographs.
* The victim's clothing is collected and new clothes are provided.
* Any physical evidence from the rape scene (such as grass or leaves) is also collected.
* Hairs are collected: the nurse collects any loose hairs or debris in the pelvic area (looking for pubic hairs of the assailant). In some cases, some of the victim's pubic hairs are needed and 15-20 of the victim's head hairs (to differentiate the victim's hairs from the assailant's).
* Fingernail scrapings are collected for detection of blood or tissue.
* The nurse then examines the victim's perineum, thighs, abdomen, buttocks and facial area for evidence of semen and, if detected, it is collected.
* Several slides are made and swabs taken from the vaginal, anal, and oral areas to check for semen, sexually transmitted diseases, and infections.
* The hospital provides the victim with any preventive medicine necessary (for tetanus, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy, etc.).
* Medical personnel perform the pelvic exam. The victim may request to have the examination done by a person of the same gender.
The sexual assault kit is then sealed in a box and secured at the hospital until given to the police for further laboratory analysis. For the box to be used in criminal proceedings, it is vital that the chain of custody and the integrity of the kit is preserved. rudeboy yes i know there are loads of tests you can carry out even dna testing and forensic testing to see if you are a victim of rape or not. Ok first i do not see any mention of this testing in the report by CNN can you tell me why? was such a test was carried out or not? I am guessing it was otherwise "After a year, the preliminary court changed the punishment and made it two to nine years for the defendants," al-Lahim said of the new decision handed down Wednesday, this is a quote from CNN. So the guys did rape her and yes they are being punished as well. 2). the girl was lashed 200 times. y because "The 19-year-old victim was sentenced last year to 90 lashes for meeting with an unrelated male, a former friend from whom she was retrieving photographs". She was lashed for meeting a guy not for being RAPED. The laws are there to protect women, to protect women from getting pregnant before marriage, to protects a family name and reputation as well as the girls name. The law discourages a girl to meet a guy because anything can happen. And yes something did happen. She got rapped. had she not met the guy she wouldnt have been in such a great mess. The law doesnt make sense if you look at it the first time. but if u look at the wider picture u ll see the whole story. The guys who raped her got punished as well and the girl got raped for meeting the guys. yeh shes an angel and maybe the guy is a nice guy but we all are not perfect. and thats y the law is there to protect the girls from those who got sick minds. I think if the girl hadnt met the guys she wouldnt have been in such trouble. she wouldnt have been raped and she wouldnt have gotten whipped. I agree with CNN there are some stupid laws like women not allowed to drive or vote but I am 100% behind this one. CNN should also address the women being raped in Africa by militants who the USA government funds and weapons. Yeh those women do not get lashes instead they die of HIY. ^ian^
It's actually easier to tell if they were raped.... ask them. rudeboy
yeh u can. but how can you trust them? how do you know they are telling the truth or not? how do you know they are just doing this to get compensated? thats why the tests are necessary ^ian^
the test confirms intercourse took place. It doesn't test if consent was given.
Application of Aristotle's truths could yield whether consent was given. burton
Rudeboy
Despite the phenomena of 'fabricated rape', most women who call police, go to court, go through the horrible procedure of having their ordeal made public claiming they have been raped - have been.
To be honest mate, with all this crap talk about 'but how can you trust them ?' you are starting to sound like a bit of an idiot. That, or a wind-up merchant.
If it's the latter, well done etc you're a really funny guy... rudeboy
Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.
a guy and a girl in a car in some place having sex. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.
y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".
there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in. rudeboy
Ian in this saudi case the girl was raped otherwise the 7 blokes wouldnt be spending 5 to 10 years in prison. but usualy how can you tell if a victim is in fact a victim or not apart from someone who saw it happened. but if you someone hasnt seen the thing happen how can u make sure whether the victim is telling the truth or not.
a guy and a girl in a car in some place having sex. police catches u and the girl goes oh he raped me. they do the testing and all to check whether an intercourse took place. ok it did how do you know whether the girl gave consent or not? the girl knows she is in trouble she starts screaming and shouting and says the guy raped her. how do u know she is telling the truth maybe she wants to get out of trouble and her way out is this.
y is it that u here now and then that some rap star has got rape charges filed against them. its probably cos the girl wants money or wants the sugar daddy to look after the kid "financially".
there are some who do get raped and the criminals get away. its a sick world we live in. ^ian^
I could leave it to the actual legal eagles on the forum but here's a quick summary of how it would work.
Firstly the police would look to see if signs of a struggle took place.
They would take down the version of events from both witnesses.
They would look into the history of them individuals... i.e. do they both know each other? how well?
They would look at the facts and then form a judgement as to whether it is worth proceeding. rudeboy
burton :S what you want me to say?? SCY Very harsh punishment indeed! In my opinion, rape victims are victimized twice by the alleged rapist and by going on the humiliating process of proving their case in court especially if the court is dominated by male juries. Bringing your case in court is not a joke, except the cases mentioned by Burton. I admire the Saudi lady for coming forward to complain and fight for her case despite the consequences that she has to face. I've read books written by Jean Sasson. In some intances, Saudi family will usually lock the lady like a jailbird in their own home for doing what they consider a "disgrace" to their family. In this case, I wonder if the girl can still lead a normal life in Saudi after serving her ordeal plus the 200 lashes. gtmash
Dude, if you watched CSI, you'd know that consentual and rape leave different sorts of "damage" on the woman right after the event. Sure, the show is fictional but at least that part makes sense. And 7 frigging guys? rudeboy
err I have said that the girl in THIS saudi case was raped. But I am also saying that there are fabricated rape stories. come on gtsmash keep up mate :D and the story is saying the girl was lashed 200 times cos she met the guys. Isnt the law there to protect her from sick minded guys in the society? if she had obeyed the law would she have gotten raped? err I dont think so. debian The whole thing could have been avoided if she hadn't went to meet the guy, which is what the law states ^ian^
She might have avoided being raped, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be raped. Concord
How about this strange concept of "Freedom".
Freedom of the woman to meet whomever she wants, whenever she wants, etc.
You want to make guys think twice about raping anyone? How about capital punishment - public execution for those seven guys. That would be after public castration! ^ian^
The problem is such a concept of freedom doesn't exist in Saudi.... or Sharjah! for that matter. Concord (CNN) -- A Saudi Arabian human rights attorney is asking the government to allow him to represent a woman who was gang-raped -- and then sentenced to prison for speaking out about the case.
Human rights groups want Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah to drop charges against the rape victim.
The attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, had his license revoked last week by a judge for speaking to the Saudi-controlled media about the case, al-Lahim told CNN.
The judge more than doubled the sentence against al-Lahim's 19-year-old client because she spoke to the media about the case, a court source told Arab News, an English-language Middle Eastern daily newspaper.
The woman -- who was initially sentenced in October 2006 to 90 lashes -- had her sentenced increased to 200 lashes and was ordered to serve six months in prison under Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic law.
"We were shocked," al-Lahim said of the increased sentence.
CNN has been unable to reach Saudi government officials for comment on this report, despite repeated requests. Watch the emotional toll the crime took on the rape victim »
Al-Lahim had petitioned the court to sentence the attackers to the death penalty, but instead the court agreed to increase their jail sentences, which had been two to three years, to two to nine years, al-Lahim said.
The case has sparked outrage among human rights groups.
"Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights.
"This is not just about the girl, it's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," she said. "We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there. We're afraid of going out in the streets."
Human Rights Watch said it has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah "to immediely void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer."
The woman, who is married, and an unrelated man were abducted and she was raped by a group of seven men more than a year ago, the lawyer said. The male victim was also given an increased sentence of 200 lashes and six months in prison, al-Lahim said.
The man and woman were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was trying to retrieve was harmless and did not show his client in any compromising position.
Al-Lahim said the man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.
Al-Lahim has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month, where he faces a possible three-year suspension and disbarment, according to Human Rights Watch.
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He told CNN he has appealed to the Ministry of Justice to reinstate his law license and plans to meet with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh.
"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," he said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."
He said the handling of the case is a direct contradiction of judicial reforms announced by the Saudi king earlier this month.
"The Ministry of Justice needs to have a very clear standing regarding this case because I consider this decision to be judiciary mutiny against the reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions," he said.
Saudi Arabia's Islamic law or sharia is not written and, therefore, subject to a wide array of interpretations. Human Rights Watch points out that a judge in Jeddah threw out a lawyer simply because he was a member of the Ismaili faith, a branch of Shia Islam.
Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.
The Saudi government recently has taken some steps toward bettering the situation of women in the kingdom, including the establishment earlier this year of special courts to handle domestic abuse cases, adoption of a new labor law that addresses working women's rights and creation of a human rights commission.
Christoph Wilcke of Human Rights Watch praised the female rape victim and her attorney for speaking out about the case, which he said may be indicative of "many injustices that we still don't know about."
"It's not only one court, it is the Saudi government that is fully behind punishing a woman who's been raped [and] punishing the lawyer who's trying to help her and doing that both because they've spoken to the media," Wilcke told CNN. "And if they hadn't spoken to the media, we wouldn't know about it."
Shying away from criticism of key ally, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called the case and the punishment "surprising" and "astonishing."
"While this is a judicial procedure -- part of a judicial procedure -- overseas in courts outside of our country, still while it is very difficult to offer any detailed comment about this situation, I think most people would be quite astonished by the situation, " McCormack said.
"I can't get involved in specific court cases in Saudi Arabia dealing with its own citizens. But most people here would be quite surprised to learn of the circumstances and then the punishment meted out," he said. E-mail to a friend Concord The saga continues...
(CNN) -- A Saudi Arabian human rights attorney is asking the government to allow him to represent a woman who was gang-raped -- and then sentenced to prison for speaking out about the case.
Human rights groups want Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah to drop charges against the rape victim.
The attorney, Abdulrahman al-Lahim, had his license revoked last week by a judge for speaking to the Saudi-controlled media about the case, al-Lahim told CNN.
The judge more than doubled the sentence against al-Lahim's 19-year-old client because she spoke to the media about the case, a court source told Arab News, an English-language Middle Eastern daily newspaper.
The woman -- who was initially sentenced in October 2006 to 90 lashes -- had her sentenced increased to 200 lashes and was ordered to serve six months in prison under Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic law.
"We were shocked," al-Lahim said of the increased sentence.
CNN has been unable to reach Saudi government officials for comment on this report, despite repeated requests. Watch the emotional toll the crime took on the rape victim »
Al-Lahim had petitioned the court to sentence the attackers to the death penalty, but instead the court agreed to increase their jail sentences, which had been two to three years, to two to nine years, al-Lahim said.
The case has sparked outrage among human rights groups.
"Barring the lawyer from representing the victim in court is almost equivalent to the rape crime itself," said Fawzeyah al-Oyouni, founding member of the newly formed Saudi Association for the Defense of Women's Rights.
"This is not just about the girl, it's about every woman in Saudi Arabia," she said. "We're fearing for our lives and the lives of our sisters and our daughters and every Saudi woman out there. We're afraid of going out in the streets."
Human Rights Watch said it has called on Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah "to immediely void the verdict and drop all charges against the rape victim and to order the court to end its harassment of her lawyer."
The woman, who is married, and an unrelated man were abducted and she was raped by a group of seven men more than a year ago, the lawyer said. The male victim was also given an increased sentence of 200 lashes and six months in prison, al-Lahim said.
The man and woman were attacked after they met so she could retrieve an old photograph of herself from him, according to al-Lahim. Citing phone records from the police investigation, al-Lahim said the man was trying to blackmail his client. He noted the photo she was trying to retrieve was harmless and did not show his client in any compromising position.
Al-Lahim said the man tried to blame his client for insisting on meeting him that day. It is illegal for a woman to meet with an unrelated male under Saudi's Islamic law.
Al-Lahim has been ordered to attend a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry of Justice next month, where he faces a possible three-year suspension and disbarment, according to Human Rights Watch.
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Saudi court ups punishment for gang-rape victim
Saudi King's U.K. visit draws protests
He told CNN he has appealed to the Ministry of Justice to reinstate his law license and plans to meet with Justice Minister Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al Al-Sheikh.
"Currently she doesn't have a lawyer, and I feel they're doing this to isolate her and deprive her from her basic rights," he said. "We will not accept this judgment and I'll do my best to continue representing her because justice needs to take place."
He said the handling of the case is a direct contradiction of judicial reforms announced by the Saudi king earlier this month.
"The Ministry of Justice needs to have a very clear standing regarding this case because I consider this decision to be judiciary mutiny against the reform that King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz started and against Saudi women who are being victimized because of such decisions," he said.
Saudi Arabia's Islamic law or sharia is not written and, therefore, subject to a wide array of interpretations. Human Rights Watch points out that a judge in Jeddah threw out a lawyer simply because he was a member of the Ismaili faith, a branch of Shia Islam.
Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote.
The Saudi government recently has taken some steps toward bettering the situation of women in the kingdom, including the establishment earlier this year of special courts to handle domestic abuse cases, adoption of a new labor law that addresses working women's rights and creation of a human rights commission.
Christoph Wilcke of Human Rights Watch praised the female rape victim and her attorney for speaking out about the case, which he said may be indicative of "many injustices that we still don't know about."
"It's not only one court, it is the Saudi government that is fully behind punishing a woman who's been raped [and] punishing the lawyer who's trying to help her and doing that both because they've spoken to the media," Wilcke told CNN. "And if they hadn't spoken to the media, we wouldn't know about it."
Shying away from criticism of key ally, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called the case and the punishment "surprising" and "astonishing."
"While this is a judicial procedure -- part of a judicial procedure -- overseas in courts outside of our country, still while it is very difficult to offer any detailed comment about this situation, I think most people would be quite astonished by the situation, " McCormack said.
"I can't get involved in specific court cases in Saudi Arabia dealing with its own citizens. But most people here would be quite surprised to learn of the circumstances and then the punishment meted out," he said. E-mail to a friend ^ian^ Unfortunately such cries from the 'west' will just make the Saudis solidify their stance, in an effort to protect their 'values'. gtmash
Men and women meeting platonically in a car is a basic part of life, law or not. debian it's a basic part of life in the west, muslims have a very different culture
Why does the west want to force its lifestyle among them anyway ? What happened to the freedom and tolerance ?
EDIT: formatting ^ian^
Firstly I said that, not gtmash... please learn to quote properly.
With respect to what happened with freedom and tolerance.. that's a great question. You answer first. debian I was just editing but you caught me.
Anyway I never advocated such concepts, the west does ^ian^
So you don't believe in freedom or tolerance? pinoy1 Saudi men must be lacking in values such as respect and self-control (sexual restraint) so the government needed to "protect" their women from them in the way that has just been demonstrated. Instead of instilling good values and behaviour in men when they are around women, they try to suppress the women instead. Yes, she might not have been raped if she did not meet the guy, but she might have been if she didn't either. The best way to protect women is to let the men know how bad raping a woman is, and not preventing women to associate with men- which seem to be a normal thing not only in the west. debian Nope, I told you we are from very different cultures. Well, not in the materialistic way of the west. These concepts originated from atheism (which later led to secularism).
Prophet Muhammad said: "This world is a prison for the believer and a paradise for the kaafir (non-believer)" since People who don't believe in God or in punishment/reward in the hereafter don't care about "rules" set by religion so they are free to do whatever they want
Take adultery for example, freedom justifies adultery in the name of love, there is nothing wrong as long as both the man and the woman agrees, but in Islam this is a sin (crime) so yes muslims don't believe in the western freedom because they submit to God.
Now why does the west want to force its lifestyle among others, isn't that against the freedom and tolerance they keep preaching ? debian The rule does not only apply on "suppresses" women, men also get punished for being alone with unrelated women and they do know how bad raping a woman is but in real life women can be a great temptation for men. For women to be aroused they have first to be emotionally and psychologically prepared and accepting the partner but men can be turned on in seconds just by the sight of an attractive stranger woman or even by the very thought of it.
This is every normal human male's behavior not only saudis. I'm sure you know about all these teen magazines talking about how "pervert" men are.
Restricting situations when men and women can be alone together will definitely reduce rape cases especially in a culture where masturbation is forbidden and marriage is the only sexual relief.
Of course not every man and woman alone are going to have s3x, but it can be a tempting situation for them
Again the law cares about eliminating root causes instead of waiting for a crime to happen then dealing with it rudeboy
someone else wouldnt be raped as long as they obey the rules and laws. rudeboy
Pinoy the Saudi Men will be spending 7 to 10 years in prison read the story. The saudi men are not being let off. They will be PUNISHED for their crime. so that next time they do plan of committing a crime they will think about it twice.
The girl is not being LASHED for being RAPED. she is being lashed for meeting the guys. The law was there to protect her, her dignity and her respect from some sick minded individuals in the society. Instead she wanted "freedom" and the rape resulted. What troubles me the most is y CNN making a huge fuss out of it? Y doesnt CNN cover a story how a woman in New York is raped in DAY LIGHT and no1 comes to protect her, nor does the CNN address it. Y?
I agree there are some laws which wouldnt make sense to a western. Even laws in UAE. But those laws have been there for decades centuries. Because of these laws the no of rape is low. no of murder cases are low, no of burgulary is low. These laws are HARSH and may seem strange to you but they only to bring peace in a society. If it wasnt for such laws I dont think you and me would be able to walk safely at 2am on the streets of dubai.
There are rotten apples everywhere. Even in the west. But i dont see the CNN addressing the rape and HIV issue there?
Yes the time is changing and women in saudi want freedom. as time goes along i m sure they will get the freedom to vote and drive. But these things take time.
There are rotten apples everywhere. In the western women are treated WORSE then in the middle east. Their husbands will drink and bash the daylights out of their wifes in front of the children. I m not saying it doesnt happen in the Middle East. it does. Non of us are perfect. But the sad fact is CNN are not doing their jobs properly and are disgracing Islam once again. burton
Really? What is 'muslim culture'?
There are plenty of muslim countries where it is perfectly acceptable by law (there may be some social hesitancy) for men and women to meet by themselves in a car, cafe, house, public space etc.
As far as I am aware, (unrelated) men and women can meet as they please in Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain...how many more do I have to name?
I think it is also legally accepable here in the UAE - unless you are suggesting that this is not an Islamic country!
Please do not confuse 'muslim culture' - whatever that is - with Saudi law. burton
But nobody is complaining about UAE laws pertaining to rape. You are right, Dubai is fantastically safe and everybody here appreciates that fact greatly.
But this is not due to any law which prohibits unrelated men and women from meeting each other - and punishes them, severely, if they do. pinoy1 My common senses still tell me that women in saudi are indeed suppressed. The fact that women are still being raped inspite of the strict laws means that it's not working. I still think it's the men that should be educated about respect and the police making sure that no REAL crimes are committed. It's like there's a desease and instead of finding a real cure for it (i.e. medicine), you order the citizens to just lock themselves up in their homes because they're the ones spreading the disease. lol. You see, temptation may come from women but it's still up to the men if they'll do anything about it. rudeboy
I agree with you. Some islamic countrys are moderate. Hell if you go to Turkey you will see them drink liquor in PUBLIC and dance and whatever. I agree with you that a girl and a guy can meet in other muslim countrys. I am sure you can do that here as well. Saudis laws are strange. But you have to remember saudi arabia is the birth place of islam. So women will be restricted from doing certain things such as meeting guys or drive. That is the LAW of Saudi Arabia and we should respect that. Same way if a muslim goes to England or USA does he complain oh these guys drink and that? Do they? no they dont they abide by the laws of the country. some dont some do. Same way you should abide with the laws. I know its abit tough but thats it the laws are there to protect and bring harmony in a society.
Yes girls can go and meet guys in UAE, Indonesia and Malaysia. but if they are caught doing something its a different story. Each country has different laws. some are strange some do not make sense while others do. But u have to respect them. rudeboy
Yes women are suppressed in Saudi. But not in saudi in other parts of islamic countrys. Y doesnt CNN address that? in pakistan women are gang raped and the criminals arent even PUNISHED. I dont see CNN reporting about it? Y? Maybe because Pakistan is USAs "friend". Atleast the 7 guys in KSA are punished as well. They will be spending 7 to 10 years in prison. Yes rape does happen in Islamic countrys. We are not perfect. Nor is the West perfect. Click on the link below. The guy killed 2 girls aged 15 in 1980 and burys them in his garden. I am sure he must have raped, molested and then finally killed them.
,,30100-1293472,00.html
But the reality is that he gets caught 27 years after what he did. Isnt it abit LATE? tell me have u heard of this stuff in KSA? Rape does happen but it happens everywhere. Not only in KSA. burton
You're right.
But that's the whole point - the story is focusing on what has happened to the rape victim, after the rape. The rape is not the story.
That's why the media has taken such an interest. Not because the woman was raped, but because even after her ordeal she still recieved a punishment for breaking a specific law.
While there can be no doubt she broke that law, many many people - muslim and non-muslim alike - consider it strange and cruel, taking into account her circumstances. ^ian^ The issue I have is the idea she brought it on herself with her behaviour. What a load of crap. arniegang
Well said Burton arniegang I am of a mind to transfer this to Politics/Religion if anyone objects please let me know otherwise i will do so by the end of tom thanks Mod rudeboy
Burton would the girl had been raped if she hadnt met the guy?
We all know she got raped after meeting them. What would have happened if SHE HADNT met? Concord
Although it "is" a religion/social thread I think it has gotten some traction on this forum and it should remain here for now. The politics forum tends to be visited by only a few and hardly anyone posts there.
Remember, the more posters (different people) the better.
By the way, Shafique can shime in on this forum as he does from time to time. Concord More to the saga The Saudi Clarification thttp:// saga, Note that her lawyer now faces 3 year suspension and disbarment! Note a good time to be a lawyer in Saudi or Pakistan (might make some happy for other reasons... incuding Shakespeare) debian I wasn't referring to any specific country's law, I said Islamic Sharia.
I am talking about Islam which prophet Muhammad and his companions had practiced.
It is repported that he said "this ummah [nation] will split into seventy-three sects, all of which will be in Hell apart from one." They asked, "Which one is that, O Messenger of Allaah?" He said, "Those who follow the path which I and my Companions are on today."
yes these countries are Islamic, even if there are some deviations they are still Islamic countries debian
&int=-1&id=sa&id=uk&id=us

Still think it's not working ?
Yes the men should work about it too, but at least help them by reducing the temptation which can for sure encourage rape
It's like teasing a kid with candy then beating him for eating it pinoy1 "It's like teasing a kid with candy then beating him for eating it" If this is how they think of men and women in Saudi then I rest my case. debian Oh right they better rape somebody every 2.5 minutes instead of thinking this way Okay pinoy1, whatever :) take a look at the statistics again burton I agree with pinoy1. I just don't understand the 'candy' metaphor. This is rape, not sticking your hand in the cookie jar... This whole 'women are such a temptation to men' angle is the weakest, lamest argument in history. I am not an advocate of feminist principles or ideology but when I read stuff like this, I sympathize greatly. Actually, this kind of thinking is very 'offensive' to men too. Why? Because it is just so utterly, depressingly primitive. It takes us right back to the stone age... There must be more than one species of man roaming around - because I am sure not the same as the one debian is talking about. Strangely enough, when I am in a quiet, small or secluded space with a woman I don't know, I am not overcome with the urge to rape them. I guess it's that quaint, old-fashioned concept of 'exercising self-control'... I have a question for debian and rudeboy - lol, the great Saudi driving debate! Generally speaking, driving = greater personal freedom. In this sense, it is entirely appropriate to conclude that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia would again put them in more situations where they were in the vicinity/proximity of unrelated males. Therefore, do you also uphold the injunction against women driving in Saudi Arabia because of this reason? I am curious... gtmash
You just shot down your own defence. debian


This is a very controversial subject. I didn't mention proximity of unrelated males, of course that will happen in public places such as shopping malls and such. I meant being alone in a closed place debian Keep reading
burton
OK fair enough. But to be honest, it's the same root issue - personal freedoms, personal liberties. And the prevention of vice. The reason women in Saudi aren't allowed to drive is not because the law thinks they don't know how to! It's because the law deems it inappropiate -inappropiate freedom and independance relative to a woman.
If women did drive, I am pretty sure such encounters between the sexes would become easier - than not...
That's why I asked if you supported the ban. Because it's another form of 'prevention'. A pre-emptive action - something which you seem very keen on... benwj This made it to BBC News today. In response to an appeal the Males' sentences have been increased to 5 years jail and the Female's sentence has been increased to 6 months jail. I was of the understanding that the koran only forbids a male and female who are not married having a physical relationship. What's wrong with the girl talking to a guy to ascertain if she likes him or not? I suspect that we are only hearing the begining of this. rudeboy
Come on guys. Rape happens everywhere. We all know that CNN is making a huge FUSS out of it cos Saudi = muslim country. Muslims = ISLAMIC Fundamentalist. Saudi ARabia = Home Land of Osama Bin Ladin.
Osama Bin Ladin = Muslim. Saudi Arabia = USAs FRIEND for YEARS.
Saudi Arabia = gives USA lots and lots of Oil USA = Gives lots of MONEY MONEY MONEY to KSA.
KSA = Leaders are appointed by USA. thats right USA. guys rape does happen everywhere.
But ask yourself this. Would the girl had been raped if she had followed the rule of not meeting a guy? no i dont want to hear anything else. Simple just answer WOULD the guy had been raped if she HADNT MET THE GUY?
Come on guys lets talk about something better. hmmm like england crashing out of Euro 2008 ;). benwj you are missing the point rudeboy. Forget all of the bull shit propaganda coming out of CNN etc. You sound as bad as them. No one denies that rape occurs everywhere. And there are still instances where the girl gets some of the blame and the justice system fails. But the law itself is very clear in that there is no excuse for rape. That's the difference. Islamic law places some of the blame on the female. That's the problem. debian So my question remains. why does the west want to enforce its ideologies among others, doesn't that contradict with the ideology itself of freedom and tolerance that they keep preaching all the time ? ^ian^
Why does Saudi persist with rules that have nothing to do with Islam?
i.e. why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day? debian
That is not an answer to my question. That's another question that diverts the discussion to a different topic shafique
Friends in Saudi tell me it because they want to stay in power and maintain their control over the population.
They drew parallels with what is happening in Burma, (and I suppose what is happening now in Pakistan).
Sadly, it has little to do with religion - except that it is being used or rather misused for this purpose.
[I haven't read the rest of the thread.. so I'll bow out here.. ]
Cheers,
Shafique burton rude, debian
Why you are sticking up for Saudi law? The judiciary? Some judge somewhere in Saudi? This is what I don't get...
Why don't you stick up for the young Saudis - men and women, but especially women - who are against this kind of legal application, against the kind of ruling which has happened?
Lol! rude, mate, especially you - you sound a bit 'streetz', a bit of a well...rudeboy, you know - givin it some and all that. Nah but seriously, I can imagine you talking about your 'sistas' and 'brothas', the life of young muslims in a post 9-11 world, American media manipulation (many of these points which I don't diagree with btw) etc etc - but why take the side of the faceless, monolithic law?? Without wanting to almost trivialize it - THE MAN. Why would you do that?
One of my closest friends here in Dubai is Saudi. True, he was almost bought up in the UK, has a British passport, but he is still 100% Saudi. What do you think he says about this case? Of course he says the girl shouldn't have met the guy - that's the law! But what else do you think he says...
My support lies with the people, the individuals - the young guys of my generation. Not some judge... ^ian^
Perhaps, but can you answer the question? It's just as relevant to the topic.
why does it prohibit women riding in cars with unrelated men? The prophet didn't even have cars in his day? debian This is the second time you avoid to answer and dodge the question ... but nevermind.
As I said earlier it's not allowed to be alone with unrelated opposite gender and again this is also for men not only women. Actually the prophet was addressing men in the hadith
"No man should be alone with a (non-mahram) woman unless her mahram is also present" (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5233; Muslim, 1341).
A "mahram" is a relative like father, brother, son, husband etc. And this is for the protection of women
So it's not about the car, cars have nothing to do with this debian
Looks like this is what happened after all

She confessed later
^ian^
What a sick sick place that must be then with a people with sick and compromised values.
This isn't Islam or even justice... it's barbaric. debian Rapists are everywhere and sure not all the people there are like this, those are criminals who got punished. The court was right, the media shouldn't have interfered and made all this fuss ^ian^
Rapists are everywhere, but nobody ever deserved to be raped or 'brought it on themselves'. debian I never said she deserved to be raped but she sure deserves punishment if the story is true. She was alone with that man and had an affair with him, add to that that she's engaged St.Lucifer Hypocrisy thy homeland is middle east . Dont tell me saudi is a great country and they follow all the rules.. Their own guys flock all over Bahrain and dubai during the weekends to have all kinda activities. It is just an example of how barbaric the country is with it's male centric rules. The worst part is those who try to see the religious angle to it. Such a shame.. I wonder if these guys who argue for the law ever meet women in their lives. debian I wonder what would you guys think of this

Another case where separation between men and women is the correct solution but this time it wasn't the girl's fault.
Burton: the primitive man species exists in Brazil too ^ian^
Well, it's pathetic too.
Just because you kind find a worse situation, doesn't make the previous situation any better.
Both should be admonished. pinoy1 I do not agree that the "separation between men and women is the correct solution", debian. If a man cannot be with an unrelated woman for a minute before deciding to rape her (or at leat that's how saudi's law think of what men would do- because of a woman's temptous nature, that's why they separate the s3xes), then there's something wrong with his values. I still think eduacation and instilling good values is the way to go. by the way, if for a woman being with an unrelated male is illegal, does this mean they can't have male friends? :roll: Concord
Here is the big difference.
In the Brasil case the authorities are conducting and investigation and the perpetrators (both the jail officials and the rapists) will be punished (well in pricipal as who knows what the Brasilian prosecutors are like, etc.).
If this had happened in Saudi Arabia then someont would have said, well the girl should not have shop lifted (she was jailed on suspision of shoplifting) because that caused the police to arrest her and caused the jailer to put her in a cell with 20 men and caused the men to rape her. So of course it was her fault all along.... And while at it why not give her 200 lashes.
See the logic... SCY
They met and kept their women in a harlem. shafique
No - I think they are more likely to be in Manhattan rather than 'harlem'
:lol:
(I'll get my coat)
cheers,
Shafique debian No, in this case it's the jail's fault, the jail officials should not have kept her with the men.
You believe (or want to believe) that they will always blame the woman but that's not true
My point was that no one criticized the decision to move the girl away and suggested instead to focus on teaching the men and "instilling good values" in them debian Well it happened again in Brazil and according to the statistics rapes are much more in the west, so either they are not educated too or it's just not working
burton
debian, I really don't understand your point. Of course men and women should be seperated in prison, of course it's the 'correct solution' - it's a prison!
Just because male and female prisoners should be seperated from each other while in prison, are you saying that men and women - civilians - should also be seperated from each other in normal society??
You are comparing apples and oranges. burton I would just point out again that a recent article in Gulf News described the general reaction to this case from young, educated, modern Saudi women. These women are muslim too. They have their faith, they are not complete hedonists bent on destroying Islam, or traditional Saudi values. But they do NOT agree with this ruling. They think it sucks. Again, why are you so supportive of the law, or the application of the law in this instance? Why not lend your support to the women who are trying to voice their opinion and effect (some) change...?? St.Lucifer
"Harlem?" lol hahaha pinoy1
Why do you think these guys are in jail in the first place? :roll:
You were not talking about separation of men and women in prison, you were talking about separation of men and women in everyday life. No comparison. pinoy1 Debian, rudeboy, I'm just wondering, how do you see women? Do you think they are there to tempt you into commiting a sin or a crime? Do you think that if they go out in the streets with skimpy clothes and get raped it's their fault? If you see a lady with an unrelated man in a car, do you think it's ok to rape her since she's commiting the crime of meeting the man?



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