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After going through shafique's posts, I came across this gem:

shafique wrote:Jesus also said 'Faith without works is dead'

Shafique then repeats this claim that a passage from the letter of James is a quote from Jesus:

shafique wrote:However, this verse is clear to me - Jesus says 'just believing' in him is not good enough - it is 'dead' faith. One had to obey God's laws (i.e. not sin) as well as having the belief.

Indeed, shafique was even charitable enough to reproduce the passage and say where in the New Testament the quote came from:

shafique wrote:Here is a verse for your reference:
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:14-18 ESV)

Now, after reading shafique's posts one might think that shafique has clearly never read the New Testament. After all, how can someone who has even the most basic handle on Christianity believe that a passage from an epistle would be a quote from Jesus (with few exceptions, obviously).

However, I know that shafique possesses a deep and uncanny knowledge of the Bible and was merely trying to be funny when he repeatedly attributed a quote to Jesus from an epistle that Jesus does not make any speaking appearances.

Shafique, I'll go ahead and let you explain to everyone that you were just joking when you claimed a passage from the letter of James was a quote from Jesus.

I guess you are still stinging from the 2 climbdowns you had to perform yesterday - acknowledging that NFLT are Christian convert terrorists and that Paul did indeed have a vision!

I guess me asking you whether you were aware that the Bible also gave Noah's age at 950 also threw you - and you couldn't bring yourself to admit to 3 mistakes in a day!

But - no problems, I'm glad you brought up this thread and that you are doing a 'scholarly' review of my posts on the differences between Pauline Christianity and what we believe was Jesus' actual message.

This passage is indeed an interesting one - and shows that a Christian still has to follow the law to attain salvation, for 'faith without deeds' is dead. The context of me quoting it was to expose the weakness in the Pauline Christian argument that mere belief in Jesus as saviour was all that was required, and that adherents of Pauline Christianity were therefore not bound by Judaic law.


Happy to discuss this specific point.


If I was mistaken and attributed this Biblical quote to Jesus instead of James - then that was a genuine mistake, I believe that Christians take this to be a teaching of Jesus - but if you are saying that it isn't, then I'll have to stand corrected. I think it only fair I also admit to my mistakes given that you did so to two substantial points yesterday.

Good work at searching through my posts to uncover this (apparent) mistake - but please clarify, is your contention that Jesus did not say these words and that this is just Jame's opinion? (I'll look this up a bit later myself, I just want your clarification for now)

Edit - yes, mea culpa, the above part of the Bible was from a letter of James and I should have just said 'the Bible says' rather than 'Jesus says' - that'll teach me to be a bit more humble and be more precise in my quotes. Thanks for pointing this out eh. (I guess I could have referred to John 3:20-21 where Jesus instructs the Pharisee that faith and 'doing truth' are both required, but I didn't - but in a way, if I did - I couldn't ask the following question)


Now - should Christians ignore this passage because it comes from James and contradicts what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9?

Is Paul right to say works are not required, or is James right to say works/deeds are required - otherwise Faith is dead?


Cheers,
Shafique

This passage is indeed an interesting one

Thanks for explaining it to me. I just thought if you were going to pontificate about the Bible, you might as well know who the actual author is.

Anyways, I'm happy to address your claims when you finish reading the epistle of james and all of paul's epistles - rather than doing quick google searches, which is what i suspect is the reason why you were able to quote a passage from the epistle of james but were unaware of who the actual author of the quote was.

Great to hear your views, but I wasn't surprised you avoided the question.

Let me repeat it for you, in case you didn't read it:

Now - should Christians ignore this passage because it comes from James and contradicts what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9?

I understand your desire to avoid the question, but I thought I'd re-state it.

Again, can I thank you for bringing up another contradiction in the NT - one verse from Paul says 'works' not needed, James says the contrary.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Shafique

I avoided the question because I'm talking to someone who is trying to pontificate on a passage that he previously (mistakenly) claimed Jesus was the speaker of.

Excuse me if I don't think you're as well read on the topic you're pontificating on.

Thanks for giving us the reason for avoiding the question - that you think I'm not well read on the subject.


Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Thanks for giving us the reason for avoiding the question - that you think I'm not well read on the subject.


Cheers,
Shafique

Sure, once you've read the New Testament I will be happy to address the views you've arrived at. Otherwise, I'm going to be arguing with someone who must google all of his answers and responses.

That seems pretty standard to me. You wouldn't really pay much attention to what a child thinks of cell physiology, no matter how much googling they've done to proclaim themselves as experts on the subject.