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Perhaps Karmi was, but he's dead now and so we can't ask him. I somehow doubt that there are many points that Geert would agree with Karmi on!

But seriously, do you agree that Judaism is a founding principle of the Netherlands - and can you explain why Orthodox Judaic law is ok for Netherlands and doesn't make it an ideology, but the less strict Islamic laws means it isn't a religion?

Cheers
Shafique

-Islam is more an ideology than a religion.. it is not to be compared with Christianity..'

Seriously - what is there in Islamic shariah that is alien to Holland and is missing from the Bible/Torah/Judaism as practiced by the most religious Jews?

A few months ago I heard a scholar who sad that religious revelations before Judaism and Christianity was more in a primitive state more like going through primary school education, with Judaism and Christianity reached to high school education state, and it was complete with Islam equivalent of university education.(most of the ideologies develop following advanced/university education)

What he meant was that for a religion to develop to be completed as a way of life (ideology), revelations had to continue and last until society faced all the basic, foundational problems both economically and socially, sot hat there were new questions to be risen and solution to be found for implementation within the law of religion.. In this context you can say that Quran is advanced and reached to that complexity to offer remedies to all problems of all times, in general principles..
If you followed it, it is more like following ideology (well at least that’s the way how secularists would describe it)
I am sure though Geert admires a lot of the quran but just his self-centered ago finds ground on his policies, mainly towards quranic principles that has outcome on life style..
Like modest dressing, drinking, adultery etc. which is contrary to the culture we have adopted there as a way of life..

Convert? Kid, don't pretend more stupid than you are in reality. A new mongol-tatar hordes from Central Asia and Caucasia of illegal immigrants flooded Moscow, probably another kind Muslims do the same in AMS.

They are not going to be Russians and Dutches and respect value of the host countries. They behave like they will never do in their motherland.

Man whatever you say, but that dudes gotta do something about that hair of his ! or atleast be charged with crimes against cruelty to human hair !

Dude, you are a good student. Prof. Shafique will be satisfied...

A+

Welcome back Chief, commiserations on forest fires. Didn't reach you, dit it?

They are not going to be Russians and Dutches and respect value of the host countries. They behave like they will never do in their motherland.

I feel, that video is a set-up, a propaganda tool shot against immigration..
Are those immigrants from within russian borders or from ex russian satellites?..

Red Chief wrote:Dude, you are a good student. Prof. Shafique will be satisfied...

Huh ! student WTF.....bro I ride alone, master of my own destiny

P.S : Thanks for posting that horrid accordion music and a video in russky that almost no one here understands. Da

Berrin wrote:Welcome back Chief, commiserations on forest fires. Didn't reach you, dit it?

They are not going to be Russians and Dutches and respect value of the host countries. They behave like they will never do in their motherland.

I feel, that video is a set-up, a propaganda tool shot against immigration..
Are those immigrants from within russian borders or from ex russian satellites?..

It's an official clip of a political party "Rodina" (Motherland) for the election to parliament in 2004. The immigrants are from the former Soviet republic Armenia. They are Christian but it was made to avoid ban for Religious intolerance.

As for fire, thanks God, it didn't reach any of my houses but smog from burning of turf was horrific in Moscow. Many peope weared respirators. Anyway thank you for asking.

Some will go all the way to try to prove Wilders point. Sjeik Feiz Muhammad claims Wilders head should be chopped off for insulting Islam.

I agree with Mr. Wilders that Islam is more than religion but totalitarian world-view . Mr. Shafique for instance invented new Politics and Science, which are very far from initial Greek meanings, to prove consistency Islam with those conceptions.

Ask any Muslim and they'll agree with Wilders.

Islam is more than a religion, it's a deen - 'a way of life'.

RC - I'm flattered that you think I invented the English meanings of 'Politics' and 'Science' - but unfortunately my other names aren't 'Oxford English Dictionary'

As for eh - he is funny, isn't he. A religion is indeed a way of life - in the same way football is a sport (duh?)- by any definition religion is a set of rules by which people choose to live their lives.

OED 1971 states:

Action or conduct indicating a belief in, reverence for, and desire to please a divine ruling power; the exercise or practice of rites or observances implying this.

Key words here, 'action' 'conduct' 'exercise or practice' - so it is a way of life indeed.

Therefore the question to eh becomes, what does he think religion is if it is less than how one lives one's life?

Cheers,
Shafique

The most honorable Shafique, with all respect you did not invent the English meanings of those concepts but launched own ones to match you religion.

I'm sure I didn't, but then again perhaps that is what you read - but it certainly wasn't my intention.

If I remember correctly, I quoted articles from the US which stated that certain acts were politically moivated rather than religious - and said I agreed with the facts, definitions and conclusions laid out. I don't recall changing the meaning of 'political' or 'religious' from the dictionary definitions.

But, then again, I'm flattered that you think I did!

Anyway, let's not relive old discussions - I'm more interested in eh's definition of religion and why he thinks relgion is not a description of rules for living one's life (i.e. a way of life).

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:Anyway, let's not relive old discussions - I'm more interested in eh's definition of religion and why he thinks relgion is not a description of rules for living one's life (i.e. a way of life).

Cheers,
Shafique

No, your honour, it isn't a private room. So please tell us what do you think about Mr. Wilders statement in his interview to Russian beauty (in OP) about Islam. Do you agree or disagree?

Geert is completely wrong about Islam being a religion of violence, not really a religion but a fascist ideology etc. He is labouring under the false notion that loon bloggers are correct in their interpretation of Islam (indeed he is another one that admits he hasn't actually read the whole Quran, in this interview).

As to his first 'loon' (i.e. islamophobic) claim that Islam is not a religion of peace, you can have a look at eh's challenge on Jihad in the religion forum.

For a non-loon reality-check about what Islam teaches, you can have a look here at the University of Georgia's page on Islam:
http://www.uga.edu/islam/


Now, I'm still fascinated to hear what eh believes religion to be, if not a 'way of life'.

Cheers,
Shafique

You have to take it easy on shafique, RC.

After repeatedly making claims of Christian 'scholars' accepting a particular view of Christianity he wants others to accept (but has so far only found one Christian scholar), he now ignores the quotes of Jihad by classical Islamic scholars.

philosophy-dubai/koran-positive-negative-talk-non-believers-t42807-45.html

philosophy-dubai/challenge-about-jihad-t43174.html

He still cannot find a quote from a second Christian 'scholar', perhaps more time on google will uncover the elusive second scholar shafique is searching for.

Meanwhile, I have five (count 'em) classical, mainstream Muslim scholars who all share the belief in offensive holy war that shafique has failed to address.

On top of that, he 'linked' to an NBC news story about Pastor Terry Jones supposedly being arrested but a few seconds of online google searching show that the story was a hoax - Jones isn't even custody and still making youtube videos if you wanted any more proof.

Nice attempt at diversion there, young one. All those threads are awaiting your answers, not mine - eg. why you think Spencer knows more about Islam and Christianity than Christian theologians who have actually read the Quran; Is your friend Pastor Jones really going to burn the Talmud; and whether you can ever admit that Abyssinia punks Spencer's theory right out of the water etc - and let's not forget the legion of other questions you're avoiding : Rapture, talking donkeys, your bizare statement about Homosexuality in the Bible, Godstein, etc etc)

So, what was that about your new clanger- that religion is NOT a way of life? Care to explain what you think religion is?

Cheers,
Shafique

Its obvious Shafique loves to think that Islam is just another religion, while in fact Islam is a totalitarian view also called an ideology. A utopian way of life. Thats a fact. Ask any muslim for confirmation.

Next, Islam and a certain score of followers are proven to be fatalistically inclined, as there is life after death. Should I call that salvation or is that too Christian for you lot, who adhere to this type of belief? Take the example of stoning of women in Iran or the two young boys in Pakistan who received the dark-aged way of public prosecution followed by public hanging. After all, according to Islam, the hellfire should feel softer by the medieval punishment you deserve on Islam's ground on earth. Psycho ofcourse.

Lets listen to a more rational voice regarding our tolerance towards Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv ... ion_391574

RobbyG wrote:Its obvious Shafique loves to think that Islam is just another religion, while in fact Islam is a totalitarian view also called an ideology. A utopian way of life. Thats a fact. Ask any muslim for confirmation.

Next, Islam and a certain score of followers are proven to be fatalistically inclined, as there is life after death. Should I call that salvation or is that too Christian for you lot, who adhere to this type of belief? Take the example of stoning of women in Iran or the two young boys in Pakistan who received the dark-aged way of public prosecution followed by public hanging. After all, according to Islam, the hellfire should feel softer by the medieval punishment you deserve on Islam's ground on earth. Psycho ofcourse.

Lets listen to a more rational voice regarding our tolerance towards Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv ... ion_391574

First of all, welcome on board, Rob. I'm glad that you are with us.

I agree with you for 90% except the view on countries like Afghanistan where Islam is probably the only way of surviving just like Communism for Russia was.

As for so advanced country like Holland such a "way of life" is not wellcomed and Mr. Wilders speaks about that directly.

Indeed Chief. Islam should suit fine in the dungeons of the third world. But for modern day advanced society (and its problems) we have another approach to solving societies issues. The individual approach.

Freedom of the individual is much more important than a group. Thats why democracy isn't perfect either. After all, the majority rules while the minority suffers from decisions made by the majority. In the end, another system would be needed, but for now, it works and people do have a property rights that allow them to express themselves individually without harming others.

If issues arise, we have a an individual bill of rights with an decent justice system that solves most matters between opposing parties.

We cherish our developments. Islam can have her's, but I don't agree with it and I don't need nothing from it when it is coerced by dark forces. F@ck Islam (red line drawn)

I take the free world where I can express myself properly, without retribution from ideologic madmen. Thank you very much.

RobbyG wrote:Lets listen to a more rational voice regarding our tolerance towards Islam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv ... ion_391574

More rational voice? Does he understand that Americans can't vote for him? Did he have lunch with the Pastor while passing through the land of the free?

Welcome back RobbyG.

Hey Bora,

Listen to what he says. He's absolutely rational in the video. Forget his populistic arguments which he throws out in the Dutch political arena to stir up the left, progressives in parliament.

This is his personal view about tolerance. If Islam really wants to promote religious tolerance, improve interfaith relations and compatibility with the US Constitution, then the Imam's should allow Synagoges to be build in Saoudi Arabia, try Mecca for a change. See how tolerant the Islamists are, aight?

NYC already has dozens of Mosques. F@ck their 'victory' mosque. Western World tolerance isn't open-ended. New Amsterdam (Dutch heritage) was given to the English and renamed New York a few hundred years ago. Geert was invited to talk about this sensitive matter as 70 percent of Americans have shown to be against the proposed Mosque near Ground Zero.

Geert Wilders said it perfect. Tolerance isn't open-ended. The lines are drawn.

Rough, more racist times are ahead. Sadly, this is how the world works.
Wilders is merely a center-right politician who appeals to the right-wing electorate. And for good reasons also. Dutch fooks are one of the most tolerant in the world. We don't give a crap about nationalistic tendencies. Because of failed Dutch leftist policies over the last decades, this will end and a certain type of nationalism will return.

I'll bet you a penny on that one.

RobbyG wrote:Hey Bora,

Listen to what he says. He's absolutely rational in the video. Forget his populistic arguments which he throws out in the Dutch political arena to stir up the left, progressives in parliament.

This is his personal view about tolerance. If Islam really wants to promote religious tolerance, improve interfaith relations and compatibility with the US Constitution, then the Imam's should allow Synagoges to be build in Saoudi Arabia, try Mecca for a change. See how tolerant the Islamists are, aight?

NYC already has dozens of Mosques. F@ck their 'victory' mosque. Western World tolerance isn't open-ended. New Amsterdam (Dutch heritage) was given to the English and renamed New York a few hundred years ago. Geert was invited to talk about this sensitive matter as 70 percent of Americans have shown to be against the proposed Mosque near Ground Zero.

Geert Wilders said it perfect. Tolerance isn't open-ended. The lines are drawn.

Rough, more racist times are ahead. Sadly, this is how the world works.
Wilders is merely a center-right politician who appeals to the right-wing electorate. And for good reasons also. Dutch fooks are one of the most tolerant in the world. We don't give a crap about nationalistic tendencies. Because of failed Dutch leftist policies over the last decades, this will end and a certain type of nationalism will return.

I'll bet you a penny on that one.

robbyG! I post this video not bcz of Islam than it is a politician who want to decide for the people what’s best for them and is threatened by a faith ! this is almost what he said in the minute “1” if the number will grow our society will change “ !!
how could you describe his view as tolerance if he doesn’t want a cretin faith in his country ? it is exactly the opposite of being tolerance and you certainly can’t give mekkah as a simple example bcz it’s a holy place yet all the others 3rd world countries has all kind of faiths for millions of years and as you can see did not inflect on anything serious .
ppl with those thoughts are no better than those Muslim extremists as you call them. You want your “individual” way or the highway ?. And I really don’t thing he’ll pull such a thing in any part of EU .not unless you Dutch are stupid enough to go along with it or simply cant think on their own.
Hey robbyg, since you are in the aerospace crap , what do you think of the 9/11 incident and those videos that proves those airplanes were a military planes and not commercial ones?
Check this out :



or the engineering opinion that the buildings went down bcz of a planed demolition since they went straight down ?

I found this little known video. US and AQ discuss 9/11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0&feature=fvw

Its amazing how people who support Hitler in killing them Djoos dare talking about tolerance and freedom. Then again, they are not human but filthy pigs!

Bora Bora wrote:I found this little known video. US and AQ discuss 9/11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0&feature=fvw

A classic from OnionTV! Thanks.

'Talking to you is like talking to a goat' - I know how he feels!


I'm quite tolerant of people who want to believe that Islam is not a religion - just as I'm tolerant of those who want to believe that the earth is flat, 9/11 was carried out by the CIA/Gov't etc - so, a really relevant video Bora!

Cheers,
Shafique

shafique wrote:I'm quite tolerant of people who want to believe that Islam is not a religion

Shafique, as far as I understood you have never rejected that Islam is a way of life or ideology. You only think that every religion is a "way of life" too.

I don't think that Christianity plays so comprehensive role in Holland like Islam in the KSA for instance. The religion as a way of life was exchanged for values long time ago. Some of them might be (might be not) came from Protestantism.

RC - yes, I do believe that any religion is by definition a 'way of life'.

What I was saying I was tolerant about were those who say that Islam is NOT a religion. The loon argument is that Islam is unlike other religions and is closer to Nazism or Fascism than, say, Buddhism. If people want to believe this, then we should be tolerant of their right to want to believe in this - but I view them in the same light as those who choose to believe the world is flat.

I have no issues with a distinction between Islamic theocracies, Christian theocracies (which don't exist any more) and secular states - but I don't buy the argument that because there are Islamic theocracies that means Islam is not a religion. I certainly don't agree with Oritentalist/Islamophobic/Loon theories that Islam means a desire to take over the world, subjugate non-Believers etc etc.

Cheers,
Shafique