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Well, i do agree with one thing "NO VIOLANCE"

Lets do it this way. "Keep boycotting DENMARK"

lets take it one step at a time. then all other countries will think zillion time when they see this country down.


No violance, do it the "modern" way.

Cheers all.

yshimy wrote:Well, i do agree with one thing "NO VIOLANCE"

Lets do it this way. "Keep boycotting DENMARK"

lets take it one step at a time. then all other countries will think zillion time when they see this country down.


No violance, do it the "modern" way.

Cheers all.

this boycott is making muslims feel better about themselves get them "involved" while the larger issues of Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more serious than any cartoon published anywhere and sadly not even 10% of this public grass roots campaigning and involvment has been directed toward those more serious offenses of the "west" against the muslim world.

I have many questions ..

1) the cartoon was originally published in sep 04 , and re-published last september, why now ?

2)check this out my friends :

http://www.islamcomicbook.com

where is everyone from boycotting the US ? lets see Saudi stop exporting oil to the US. hypocrites.

3)Why hasnt the Muslim public react half the way they have reacted to this issue on other more serious offenses by the west ?


... many more but i think i made my point

It is my hypothesis that the fundamental source of conflict in this new world will not be primarily ideological or primarily economic. The great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of conflict will be cultural. Nation states will remain the most powerful actors in world affairs, but the principal conflicts of global politics will occur between nations and groups of different civilizations. The clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. The fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future.

-Samuel P. Huntington

Extremely relevant and valid points Maaad

Really excellent points Maad.......very well said

Very nice questions touching the sour nerve as we say.

my contribution to these Qs, hope some other forumers reply too.

1) the cartoon was originally published in sep 04 , and re-published last september, why now ?
This issue took the snow ball effect, started small started to get bigger and bigger. First the isalmic community in denmark decided not to over react, they protested and asked for an apology with no reply from the newspaper and even the government said that it is "freedom of speech". Even the Danish Prime minister refused to meet 11 Ambassadors from Arab/Muslim countries.......!!!!!!!
This lead to the snow ball effect of people telling each other, talking to home countries about the destress they are in, and then the exponential curve started to hit the sky and here it is.

The Danish prime minister is asking to meet the Muslim/Arab countries ambasadors. (what an asshole)

The same man appologized about an "anti-jewish" topic was in Danish media. (FREEDOM OF SPEECH MY ASS)

2)check this out my friends :

http://www.islamcomicbook.com

where is everyone from boycotting the US ? lets see Saudi stop exporting oil to the US. hypocrites.

US is a super power, or THE Only super power and the big bully now on earth, you can't have the same conforntation like with the Danes. Stop exporting oil, well, there are alot of things and this is the biggest part of it. but this would lead into a REAL WWIII. For god's sake they hit Afghanistan to have a base to be able to attack Iraq to have their oil, so imagine what they would do if they found that all arabs will not give them oil.... mmmmmm secret word (NUKES)


3)Why hasnt the Muslim public react half the way they have reacted to this issue on other more serious offenses by the west ?

Like what??? but these days the middle east is having a huge transitions, not in their forign policies and this politica bullshit, but in the real people. people are getting closer espcially after the Afhghanistan and Iraq invasion. they know that this is the start of the big plan. (yeah, think i'm paranoid???? this is known scheme from before. yeah conspirecy theory, well guess what you want, it is happening, next syria then Iran)

People in the middle east and the masses are now seeing the danger closer, what happened to the people in Afghanestan and Iraq made them see the danger next door, saw the suffering of their fellows in Abu Gheirb and Guantanamo and even people from their own countries being held there and have actually experienced these suffereings and came home to tell these stories.

And when it come to religion, people are willing to loose their lives, it is more important than the land or countries.

anyway, These are my thoughts, might be right or wrong, but i'm there i'm here in the middle east, i lived all my life in all categories of the Arab/Muslim society and there are my two Cents

Cheers

May God give us the strength to save the dignity of our religoin.

Excellent point Maad - one the powers that be should answer!

Interestingly, the film Syriana (which was filmed in Dubai!) and stars George Clooney, Matt Damon amongst others excellently shines a light on this issue.

Thoroughly recommend the movie if you can get to see it.

Cheers,
Shafique

Though it seems it is banned in Dubai.

Hypocrisy was that it was shown in the film festival....

With all of this *protesting* by extreme islamic movement sympathisers (I dont want to say muslims or islam, because they are not all lumped togeher) has been getting alot of attention.

However, do not forget about the western youth that is getting sick and tired of dealing with these people. The Western European states are about fed up with having to look over their shoulder because a movement promotes violence and uses a major religion as a vehicle to drive that promotion. Until non-violent muslims will stand up and say they no longer support violent hypocrites using their religion as a basis for violence, then everyone will be lumped together, and the muslim religion will continue to be looked upon as a terrorist movement. You have to dissassociate yourselves from the violent tactics.

It sucks having immigrants come to your country, refuse to adopt your culture, and then start violently protesting over any thing that could possibly ignite.

People have to walk on egg shells around anything islamic, but the president of Iran can openly say the holocaust didnt exist.
The west was very upset over those comments, but did they burn the Iran embassy down? Oh wait, thats coming. Nevermind.

The Koran will not be burned in Denmark. The police will stop it before it will happens.

Pacificsurf,

Agree with the no violance idea, disagree with the idea of that these demonstrations are driven through some powers that have a hidden agenda.

http://www.7days.ae/regional-news/attacks-condemned.html

Excellent point pacificsurf619! And interstig to note that the alleged reports of people sending texts to meet in Copenhagen to burn the Koran never happened! Just people once again trying to whip others into a frenzy.

Does adpoting culture mean having our women dress like sluts and no longer cover themselves properly?

Does it mean shunning God?

Does it mean espousing pre-marital sex and the entire notion of dating?

Does it mean drinking alchohol and eating bacon?

If it means just one of these things then we will never adopt your culture.

If you mean speaking the language, then of course, all immigrants must in addition to their mother tongue.

Liban wrote:Does adpoting culture mean having our women dress like sluts and no longer cover themselves properly?

Does it mean shunning God?

Does it mean espousing pre-marital fun and the entire notion of dating?

Does it mean drinking alchohol and eating bacon?

If it means just one of these things then we will never adopt your culture.

If you mean speaking the language, then of course, all immigrants must in addition to their mother tongue.

Liban, Please open your eyes, many so called Muslims do at least the above anyway.

yshimy wrote:Very nice questions touching the sour nerve as we say.

my contribution to these Qs, hope some other forumers reply too.

1) the cartoon was originally published in sep 04 , and re-published last september, why now ?
This issue took the snow ball effect, started small started to get bigger and bigger. First the isalmic community in denmark decided not to over react, they protested and asked for an apology with no reply from the newspaper and even the government said that it is "freedom of speech". Even the Danish Prime minister refused to meet 11 Ambassadors from Arab/Muslim countries.......!!!!!!!
This lead to the snow ball effect of people telling each other, talking to home countries about the destress they are in, and then the exponential curve started to hit the sky and here it is.

The Danish prime minister is asking to meet the Muslim/Arab countries ambasadors. (what an asshole)

The same man appologized about an "anti-jewish" topic was in Danish media. (FREEDOM OF SPEECH MY a#s)

2)check this out my friends :

http://www.islamcomicbook.com

where is everyone from boycotting the US ? lets see Saudi stop exporting oil to the US. hypocrites.

US is a super power, or THE Only super power and the big bully now on earth, you can't have the same conforntation like with the Danes. Stop exporting oil, well, there are alot of things and this is the biggest part of it. but this would lead into a REAL WWIII. For god's sake they hit Afghanistan to have a base to be able to attack Iraq to have their oil, so imagine what they would do if they found that all arabs will not give them oil.... mmmmmm secret word (NUKES)


3)Why hasnt the Muslim public react half the way they have reacted to this issue on other more serious offenses by the west ?

Like what??? but these days the middle east is having a huge transitions, not in their forign policies and this politica bullshit, but in the real people. people are getting closer espcially after the Afhghanistan and Iraq invasion. they know that this is the start of the big plan. (yeah, think i'm paranoid???? this is known scheme from before. yeah conspirecy theory, well guess what you want, it is happening, next syria then Iran)

People in the middle east and the masses are now seeing the danger closer, what happened to the people in Afghanestan and Iraq made them see the danger next door, saw the suffering of their fellows in Abu Gheirb and Guantanamo and even people from their own countries being held there and have actually experienced these suffereings and came home to tell these stories.

And when it come to religion, people are willing to loose their lives, it is more important than the land or countries.

anyway, These are my thoughts, might be right or wrong, but i'm there i'm here in the middle east, i lived all my life in all categories of the Arab/Muslim society and there are my two Cents

Cheers

May God give us the strength to save the dignity of our religoin.

Well said yshimy. Now to Choco and Pacific. Go back to 19 30's newspapers across Europe and North America. Many newspapers were Anti-Semitic. Now after WW2 they are careful of their words and yes the top Jewish controlled media spreads the notion that all Jews are basically victims of holocaust. Newspapers these days are less anti-semitic, do u know why? Not bcos they are respect Jews but bcaos they are afraid of their jobs. Now as yshimy put it, the Muslims in Denmark tried in moderate way to solve the problem but tose rascist fools dont even know what's right from wrong and yes the Danish minister refused to meet with ambassadors so now what? Yes BANG BANG. Now u get the attention cos bad deeds are always more conspicuous than good.

You might want to read the front page of 7 Days today, where a Danish Imam is accused of stirring up trouble, by touring the middle east showing the pictures, 3 of which were never printed in the paper in the first place. They're saying that this whole thing would not have exploded out of control as when the images were first printed they were largely ignored. But a group travelled to the middle east showing them to Muslim groups here.

Was he deliberately trying to cause an inflamitory situation?

pacificsurf619 wrote:


It sucks having immigrants come to your country, refuse to adopt your culture, and then start violently protesting over any thing that could possibly ignite.

People have to walk on egg shells around anything islamic, but the president of Iran can openly say the holocaust didnt exist.
The west was very upset over those comments, but did they burn the Iran embassy down? Oh wait, thats coming. Nevermind.

Well I am a westerner and from West and I am ashamed of some things our forefathers have done and yes leaving the legacy to my children. West has been always arrogant until last 30 yrs attitude changed. Now U cant FORCE ppl to adapt a culture. We werent forced to adopt Indian culture when we came to New World. What did we do ? eradicated them and made their generations so bad that they cant even recuperate-> there is high crime, alcoholism and other crap in First nation society.

Secondly, West dont care about religion anymore wht they care is money honey. So what do they do? Do it legal way. Go to the war. Yes we have boys who do stuffs in "legal way" like bombing Iraq to find WMD. Now who is gonna punish those naughty bros UK and USA their papa -> UN? hahaha. Well u know USA didnt give a crap about going to way and yes they went against UN's decision , yes that country which supports "democracy" dumped the decision of 120+ nation! Now Pacific u get my point? They have suicide bombings, burnings and other shit cos there arent any troops to protect em or those ppl are fed up being enuchs. Suicide bombin was started recently less than 10 yrs ago in Palestine Why? cos after 50 yrs of struggle nobody gave them shit. Cos palestinians dont have the merkava tank, apache etc to protect the citizens like isreal so they follow the "illegal" way - Bang Bang.


No I aint a proArab suporter or another blind support of blind movement.U have to see the past, the causes for these things. No I dont even accept the violence . The personal losses of the hostage takers do not justify the murder of somebody in revenge, but it does make the point that these "terrorist" attacks do not just come out of the blue for no reason.

West's policies in world over the last 50+ years or so have laid the groundwork for what is happening. Wars in far away places have a nasty habit of rebounding on people.

Chocoholic wrote:Liban, Please open your eyes, many so called Muslims do at least the above anyway.

So-called Muslims... You hit the nail with the hammer straight on. I refer to the Muslims that are practicing ones. Not non-practicng Muslims.

The West created the mess we are in today. It all stems down to the creation of Israel. Before 1948, you never heard of Muslims/Arabs being called terrorists. We were in the desert having a blast with our harems

Stick to the point people.

I have a few points to mention pertaining to the issue:

1-Do you agree or disagree that the caricatures were offensive, irrelevant, and lacking of any context?

If Yes, then by what right do you expect people of a different culture/faith to react to the way YOU think is "right"?

What moral high ground do you have (or think you have) that qualifies you to dictate your "Expectation" of a reaction on Muslims? Specially when you (any western) are dissociated from that culture/religion and the whole civilizational experience?

You can't blame anyone for the "reaction" they have, because the crap has already hit the fan, you should blame the action.

End of Story.

Islam is more central to its followers' lives (yes even the ones that drink and have pre-extra-marital sex Choco, the ones you like to point out to hint at hypocrisy when Christianity itself says that you shouldn't commit the Adultery, and yet you find nothing hypocritical about Christians doing that) than most religions. That might be hard to understand to a secular european (and I underline European because USA, despite all, did not publish these caricatures and actually condemned them) , but it does hold up. You can't blame people for having a "strict" reaction to a religious offense, when they themselves take religion more "strictly" than you do.

I find it ridiculous that Muslims are now being blamed for their reactions. So what if an embassy was burned down? It's a building of metal and stone. Did anybody die?

I think that it serves Denmark right.

If a collaborative muslim/non-muslim Danish demonstration went on the streets early on to condemn that newspaper, none of this would have happened.

But it seems that the Danes didn't really mind that offence. Oh well, face the consequences then.

And for those that say that the Danish muslims should have dealt "peacefully" with the event. Danish muslims tried to meet the editor of the newspaper, tried to meet with their representatives in the Parliamant, tried to meet with the PM, but all doors were shut in their faces....

So it's bad for other muslims to jump in the fray and protest against offending their religion?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

Also, for God's sake, stop reading 7days, it's a cheap adaptation of your average tabloid, and the westerners in the Springs/Greens..etc are in love with it because it feeds into their ignorance and is particularly aimed at them. It has no credibility whatsoever.

Also Maad: Samuel Huntington is dead wrong on every point he makes. He is celebrated by the Christian Right in the USA, and is almost their political/historical mentor, along with Bernard Lewis. But in reality that guy is a lone voice in the vast majority of scholars/academics.

Yes a lot of people in the West would love to believe/make it look and propagate the notion of a "clash of civilizations". It's very fun when you "The West" is the top gun and the tough guy. But in reality civilizations, for the most part of history, have co-existed and more-or-less peacefully engaged in a discourse.

You want proof? I won't mention technical political and historical events.

You just have to logically look at the scene today. The world is more open and more tolerant to learn about different cultures and engage/live/work with "the other" more than ever. And that has been the slow but sure shift of things. That only indicates that things will get better in the future.

The problem with the "clash of civilizations" theory is that it propagates itself. In other words, people start from believing in it, because of their delusional superiority or xenophobia, and act upon it, and the actions of other people that believe the same thing (and in powerful positions) only re-inforces the notion of it happening.

The majority of populations however, whether in the East or West do not like the notion, nor believe in it. Even the most extreme always use that old "a small minority is ruining the image" broken record.

Who controls policies, funding, scientific research ...etc, in the West? The major trans-continental corporations. Namely the Science/Industry/Military complexes, and these people would be out of a job if people started believing in peace and harmony. It is in their best interested to propagate people like Samuel Huntington.

Civilizations are not solid objects in war and conflict and doomed for eternity(Like Samuel Huntington suggests). Civilizations are made by people, and people can change it, and people -no matter who you talk to- ultimately seek peace. That -in essence- nullifies the notion of a "clash".

The above is the only reason for the few "setbacks" we see every now and then. But in general I can safely say that people around the world have more respect, tolerance, and knowledge of other cultures, and the trend is ever intensifying.

One last thing: Of all newspapers/countries, even ISRAEL, in it's most widely distributed newspaper Haaretz, has condemned the caricatures and said that the rage by muslims is understood. I would suspect that they "understand" because Jews in Israel are also religious and would identify with such an offence.

Which brings me to another interesting question: If you as much as say that there was ONE person less than 6 million jews killed by the Nazis, you get your arse thrown in jail by law in Europe, after hell is unleashed by the Jewish lobbies and media outlets in Europe. Can you imagine what would happen if ... say .... a european newspaper publishes a caricature of Moses or even a modern secular Jew like Hertzel with a sniper rifle by his side?

I don't think any of you oh-muslims-are-reacting-bad people would utter a word now would you? It would only intensify your feeling of guilt towards a group of people you had nothing to do with their abuse (and that is also a reply to Kanelli which said a few days back that she shouldn't sympathize with Muslims since she had nothing to do with the event), you have to actually kill/maim/offend somebody to sympathize with them? Wheres your humanity?

Thanks for post Linda. I am glad to see people who are actually enriching the discussions.

I never "celebrated" Samuel Huntington or his theory i just thought that what is going on today is really a byproduct of people who beleive and act in that way. I still beleive the clash's today are idelogical more than anything else. Although the internet/media frenzy today has made a big difference and you cannot compare civilizations co-existing together at the same time in the old times to today.

Regardless you have made some very valid points.

Linda, I happen to have a lot of friends that work for that paper so shut up you silly woman!!!! They're all great journos with a lot of credibility! Plus that particular news story would have come from Reuters - the biggest news agency and wire in the world, the other papers are too chicken sh** to pick it up, is the truth!

All the big stories are provided by Reuters, WAM or the Associated Press Agency, unless it's says so on the article, so don't talk about what you don't know!

Oh I suppose you read Emirates Today - what a heap of crap of a paper that is! They're so terrified of covering any major hard hitting stories as they're government owned and scared of getting into trouble - ooooo eeeerrr!

Linda

I find your post and the tone of serious concern.

Stick to the point people.

I have a few points to mention pertaining to the issue:

1-Do you agree or disagree that the caricatures were offensive, irrelevant, and lacking of any context?

If Yes, then by what right do you expect people of a different culture/faith to react to the way YOU think is "right"?

What moral high ground do you have (or think you have) that qualifies you to dictate your "Expectation" of a reaction on Muslims? Specially when you (any western) are dissociated from that culture/religion and the whole civilizational experience?

You can't blame anyone for the "reaction" they have, because the crap has already hit the fan, you should blame the action.

End of Story.

and


I find it ridiculous that Muslims are now being blamed for their reactions. So what if an embassy was burned down? It's a building of metal and stone. Did anybody die?

I think that it serves Denmark right.



You and your arrogant and misguided views me


End of.....

Linda-presumption about what other people think is the basis of racism. You presume alot Or you're a mind reader.

Linda, very good post, thanks for it.


Typical respond form the "Other" Camp

Choco, Arnie, GAB

They were not able to refute or go into discussion about your points and just tried to pick some minor irrelevant points just to distract the forum from your main discussion.

Guys leave your feelings and reply with facts.

cheers

yshimy wrote:Linda, very good post, thanks for it.


Typical respond form the "Other" Camp

Choco, Arnie, GAB

They were not able to refute or go into discussion about your points and just tried to pick some minor irrelevant points just to distract the forum from your main discussion.

Guys leave your feelings and reply with facts.

cheers

Yshimy, forget it... Those people are bigots and closet racists. They are stuck in the mediocre ways.

The whole them against us thing is just boring. The points made show a lack of understanding of both Islam and Christianity. The amount someone follows their faith or their beliefs depends on them. Yes, I have Muslim,Christian and non-religious friends all who have varying ideolodies within their own faith. You cannot speak for all Muslims nor can you speak for all other faiths.

Islam is more central to its followers' lives than most religions

Please let's stick to fact.

How people interpret their faith and obide by it varies from person to person. I've seen both religions strictly adhered to and both well, not so.

The destruction of property was uncalled for. I don't think it is just people of one faith commiting acts of agression and violence. It would be naive to think so. Mob mentality exists and some people unfortunately see this as an opportunity to create havoc.

Personally, having a Muslim boyfriend didn't make me jump on my soap box and talk for ALL Muslims and denigrate ALL other faiths. A show pony is just an ass to some.

yshimy wrote:Linda, very good post, thanks for it.


Typical respond form the "Other" Camp

Choco, Arnie, GAB

They were not able to refute or go into discussion about your points and just tried to pick some minor irrelevant points just to distract the forum from your main discussion.

Guys leave your feelings and reply with facts.

cheers

Yhsimy, truth is I couldn't be bothered! This woman has a one sided view and is unwilling to consider other peoples points of view, I don't entertain people like that! Plus I happen to work in the media and write articles for many publications here, so I don't need some upstart telling me my business!

Liban,

If you're constantly going to bang on about racism - which is totally not true by the way - what about your attitudes to anything 'Western'? Pot, Kettle Black, me thinks!

hmm.... I've mentioned some valid points, historical, political and logical.

Yet I get insults and personal attacks.... kinda violent for people that defend that danish newspaper under the pretence of "freedom of speech" isn't it? I get attacked if I say something "politely" that you do not agree with, but it's wrong for muslims to attack if their most sacred scriptures/individuals are being ridiculed?

Hypocritical isn't it?

And what is the "other point of view" choco? Enlighten me sweetheart, because insults and personal/irrelevant attacks is all that you spew. If that's the way you carry out your "work in the media" then I'm not surprised that you like 7days and other cheap tabloids .

Moving on ....

It appears (quoted by the Guardian, a real newspaper, not 7days) that Jyllands-Posten had rejected a caricature of Jesus Christ 3 years ago, because it thought it would "offend" it's readers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 01,00.html

The guy in charge in Jellands-Posten retorted :""In the Muhammad drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons. That's the difference," he said"

You're kidding me ..... an artist volunteers to publish caricatures of Jesus Christ , which "some" might find offensive, and you reject him, which is different from actually ASKING artists to draw cartoons that OFFEND muslims?? Of course it's not the same, its MUCH worse!! Wheres the freedom of speech when it came to Jesus Christ?

Any comments?

Chocoholic wrote:Pot, Kettle Black, me thinks!

You make no sense at all...

Must be some Brit thing....