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You do not appreciate all the teachings of manners found in the holy books?

Andyba wrote:What do you mean by calculating behavior? And what actually is true empathy?

Calculating behavior in the sense that you intend to benefit from it. If a sick man is lying on the sidewalk, me or you helping him doesn't benefit me or you, still its empathic to do so. You might even say you lose time for example. He wins, you loose.
True empathy? There are empaths out there that can read and even understand others emotions within a split second to the T. By definition thats empathy. True empathy is that you also do something with it for the good of the other.
Empaths can be still be very egocentric and manipulative for their own gain.

Andyba wrote:

Nucleus wrote: I don't think there is a question of how far it extends, as it is about not being hypocrite.

Well people don't like to consider them self hypocrites, so it is easier to talk about how far the rule can extend.
During war for example it's quite difficult to follow this rule even if you are usually not a hypocrite.

If people are then it is what it is, whether they like it be called that or not. I think there is the point of innate good inside people but do people cover it?

How it is difficult to follow in a war? Can you give an specific example?

Flying Dutchman, I think you've been watching too much Star Trek FD!

Pourquoi? Oh, because of the empaths? I know such a person IRL, its uncanny really. Can accurately read everybody in no-time, but is still one of the must egocentric perons I have ever met.

Some "empathy" test might be interesting:

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/ei_quiz/

http://www.questionwritertracker.com/qu ... K3TKB.html

http://glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/Faces/EyesTest.aspx

Some fake empathy:

Flying Dutchman wrote:Calculating behavior in the sense that you intend to benefit from it. If a sick man is lying on the sidewalk, me or you helping him doesn't benefit me or you, still its empathic to do so. You might even say you lose time for example. He wins, you loose.

Well.. you loose time but you can win a friend.
Indeed if you put it this way The Golden Rule is not always about win-win, but it is about win-win in a relationship where you can freely communicate.

Flying Dutchman wrote:There are empaths out there that can read and even understand others emotions within a split second

I understand empathy as being able to imagine yourself in the place of someone else. That's it.
It can be trained since imagination can be trained.
"Reading emotions" is imho something different... and is not always accurate since different people express the same emotions differently.
But it is possible to quickly learn a persons emotions by seeing how he reacts to various circumstances.

Sam Richards - A Radical Experiment in Empathy:

Andy - thanks for that video. I enjoyed it - and it was indeed thought provoking. I initially thought he was going to compare the situation in Africa, rather than the Mid East.. as the analogy fits perfectly there too.

Similar theme in this (shorter) political ad (imagine if China were occupying Texas):


Cheers,
Shafique

The Silver rule, which say "Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself" is more practical in my opinion considering modern realities.
That is similar to google moto "don't be evil". (:

I'd call 'be polite' as a 'bronze rule'.

We could do more of that on these forums.

Cheers,

Shafique

<- Good description of the "Golden Rule"

Andyba ,

Andyba wrote:I understand empathy as being able to imagine yourself in the place of someone else. That's it.

Yes, and I make a distinction for true empathy, meaning that besides imagining or reading somebody else's emotions, you also do something with it for the good for the other, selflessly with compassion, without expecting anything in return. You can imagine what you want and still purposely hurt the other.

^Sounds very much like the Quranic principle I outlined:

The highest level is (Ita'i Dhil-Qurba) - 'Kindred' - to treat others as you would treat family, i.e. give them love etc without any regard for how they actually behave towards you/others - as you would treat your child/parents/siblings.

I think FD's distinction between 'empathy' and 'true empathy' is on the principle of actions - whilst one may feel the pain of others (figuratively), one may not act upon those feelings FD is arguing - but if one is 'truly empathetic' then one would act selflessly.

However, I do think that this latter meaning is what Andy and others may mean when they say 'empathy' - someone with empathy will act according to this way of looking at others - putting the other's considerations first. Being empathetic is, to me, to both put yourself in another's shoe and act accordingly.

An egotist who wishes to inflict pain will imagine the pain of the victim, but is certainly not being empathetic when he is torturing them knowingly - whether direct torture or figuratively by screwing them financially, psychologicially etc. Just imagining what the person is feeling is not being empathetic.

So, in a way I agree with FD - just imagining what someone is feeling is not enough. It is imagining and acting that counts.

I would just point out that that is what I would call empathy - the imagining AND the doing. FD may be right on the technical definition and therefore he may be right that we should clarify when we use the term whether we mean 'just imagining' or 'imagining and acting on'.

Cheers,
Shafique

Flying Dutchman wrote:You can imagine what you want and still purposely hurt the other.

Thank you for that insight. It pretty much defines what some people do on this forum. Replace "imagine" with "being obsessed" and still deliver the same result.

Very interesting video! What happens if too many people are lacking the capability to empathise? I have met several in my lifetime already, and it is quite scary.

kanelli wrote:What happens if too many people are lacking the capability to empathise? I have met several in my lifetime already, and it is quite scary.

I think you can divide those in two:

-those that indeed lack empathy at a whole, which can be mostly seen with people with a disorder like psychopaths, narcissists or autists.

-those that are so busy and preoccupied with there own emotions, that they donot have room and/or time for empathizing with others.

The first category should be considered scary, the second not so much IMHO. For the second category there is hope, for the first there is not, once they reached adulthood.